Too big a stage for Freeman & Co

[BGI User 1596]

“If Kelly and Freeman’s teams got together (LSU offense & ND defense) they’d be 2023 National Champions!”
You forgot to mention that the graduation rate would be cut in half!

 

[4-4-3]

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO DEADIRISHPOET'S MOST RECENT POST TO ME. FOR SOME REASON, IT DIDN'T APPEAR AS A QUOTED POST.

The most successful teams have the FULL PACKAGE. And it’s true in any sport: the 27, 36, 61 and 98 Yankees; the Jordan Bulls; the Gretzky-Messier Oilers; the Lombardi Packers.

As for the early 90’s ND teams, I think it was the PRESENCE of Rick Mirer then Kevin McDougal that made a great running game even better. Not only were they both good passers but they could run, themselves. Beuerlein, Kent Graham and Powlus were the only three Holtz QB’s who COULDN'T.

Those teams also had excellent receivers. But their key strength may have been the JOE MOORE OFFENSIVE LINES which produced, among other standouts, AA’s Aaron Taylor and Mirko Jurkovic.

Holtz’s offenses, well-oiled machines, seldom got shut down. They were simply too TALENTED.

The video below showcases the overall prowess of the 91 unit against MSU. First, the running games is AWESOME and features 6 backs: Jerome Bettis, Tony Brooks, Reggie Brooks, Rodney Culver, Willie Clark and Ryan Mihalko. Second, the passing game is focused downfield to two terrific wideouts -- Tony Smith and Lake Dawson – and two gifted tight ends – Derek Brown and Irv Smith.

And underscoring it all is a typically talented Joe Moore OL, consisting of Lindsay Knapp, Gene McGuire, Aaron Taylor, Todd Norman and Tim Ruddy.

That 1991 offense does to MSU what this year’s did to Navy, Tennessee State and Central Michigan.

ND/MSU - 1991

As for recruiting, there’s no arguing that in his first two years, Freeman on average has had better classes than Kelly did over 12 years. Not only on a points basis, but also in terms of composite ranking. Kelly’s AVERAGE CLASS rank was a hair over 12, whereas Freeman’s is 9. Yet, while Freeman has been better SO FAR, it hasn’t exactly been NIGHT AND DAY, particularly in light of Kelly’s 9 in 2021.

Also worth noting is that in addition to his recruiting at the same level the year he left as Freeman, Kelly’s performance had been slowly TRENDING UP since he’d taken over a team that had ranked 15 two straight years. While the second of those classes was technically Kelly's, it was largely in place by the time he was hired.

Plus, his 2013 haul was ND’s most highly ranked since 2008 and ranks slightly higher than both of Freeman's classes.

SO, WHILE THERE’s NO QUESTION THAT FREEMAN IS OFF TO A FASTER START THAN KELLY, THE RESULT, SO FAR, ISN’T SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN HOW KELLY WAS DOING WHEN HE LEFT. AND EVEN IF FREEMAN KEEPS PACE AT THE CURRENT LEVEL, IT WON’T MOVE THE NEEDLE ENOUGH TO GAIN GROUND ON THE ELITE 1 THROUGH 5 RANKED RECRUITERS.

You’ve been watching videos of the early 90’s teams, and maybe you’ve already seen the one I’ve provided here. Thing is, those teams were the result of FOUR SUCCESSIVE NUMBER ONE RECRUITING CLASSES. To be honest, that’s almost – metaphorically speaking – AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE BETTER than any ND recruiting performance SINCE.

The other stat worth NOTING is that Gerry Faust had 3 NUMBER ONE CLASSES and another, though not number 1, ranks 7th in ND HISTORY – the 84/TIM BROWN CLASS. But since Faust was a LOUSY COACH, IT DIDN’T MATTER.

Bottom line, we have Freeman performing well as a recruiter BUT NOT AT THE SAME LEVEL OF THE TEAMS he needs to be able to BEAT CONSISTENTLY. At the same time, while he may be a better coach than Faust, THERE’S NO EVIDENCE SO FAR THAT HE’S AS GOOD AS EITHER HOLTZ OR KELLY. In fact, based on watching his SIDELINE DEMEANOR, I already doubt that he’s on their level on an IN-GAME BASIS.

So, there’s NO WAY TO KNOW YET where Freeman is headed. But YEAR THREE SHOULD TELL A LOT. Yet, as I’ve said from the moment he was hired – THIS MAN FACES A VERY TOUGH CLIMB – and the notion that it’s any kind of a LOCK that he will turn out as good as Holtz and/or Kelly – let alone better – seems TO ME not only RIDICULOUSLY PREMATURE but perhaps TOTALLY UNFOUNDED as well.

WHICH IS WHY I REMAIN A FULL-THROATED SKEPTIC.

 

[Pennick4]

Dude is odd.

Someone needs to tell him this is a message board and not a dissertation board.

 

[banmate6]

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO DEADIRISHPOET'S MOST RECENT POST TO ME. FOR SOME REASON, IT DIDN'T APPEAR AS A QUOTED POST.

The most successful teams have the FULL PACKAGE. And it’s true in any sport: the 27, 36, 61 and 98 Yankees; the Jordan Bulls; the Gretzky-Messier Oilers; the Lombardi Packers.

As for the early 90’s ND teams, I think it was the PRESENCE of Rick Mirer then Kevin McDougal that made a great running game even better. Not only were they both good passers but they could run, themselves. Beuerlein, Kent Graham and Powlus were the only three Holtz QB’s who COULDN'T.

Those teams also had excellent receivers. But their key strength may have been the JOE MOORE OFFENSIVE LINES which produced, among other standouts, AA’s Aaron Taylor and Mirko Jurkovic.

Holtz’s offenses, well-oiled machines, seldom got shut down. They were simply too TALENTED.

The video below showcases the overall prowess of the 91 unit against MSU. First, the running games is AWESOME and features 6 backs: Jerome Bettis, Tony Brooks, Reggie Brooks, Rodney Culver, Willie Clark and Ryan Mihalko. Second, the passing game is focused downfield to two terrific wideouts -- Tony Smith and Lake Dawson – and two gifted tight ends – Derek Brown and Irv Smith.

And underscoring it all is a typically talented Joe Moore OL, consisting of Lindsay Knapp, Gene McGuire, Aaron Taylor, Todd Norman and Tim Ruddy.

That 1991 offense does to MSU what this year’s did to Navy, Tennessee State and Central Michigan.

ND/MSU - 1991

As for recruiting, there’s no arguing that in his first two years, Freeman on average has had better classes than Kelly did over 12 years. Not only on a points basis, but also in terms of composite ranking. Kelly’s AVERAGE CLASS rank was a hair over 12, whereas Freeman’s is 9. Yet, while Freeman has been better SO FAR, it hasn’t exactly been NIGHT AND DAY, particularly in light of Kelly’s 9 in 2021.

Also worth noting is that in addition to his recruiting at the same level the year he left as Freeman, Kelly’s performance had been slowly TRENDING UP since he’d taken over a team that had ranked 15 two straight years. While the second of those classes was technically Kelly's, it was largely in place by the time he was hired.

Plus, his 2013 haul was ND’s most highly ranked since 2008 and ranks slightly higher than both of Freeman's classes.

SO, WHILE THERE’s NO QUESTION THAT FREEMAN IS OFF TO A FASTER START THAN KELLY, THE RESULT, SO FAR, ISN’T SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN HOW KELLY WAS DOING WHEN HE LEFT. AND EVEN IF FREEMAN KEEPS PACE AT THE CURRENT LEVEL, IT WON’T MOVE THE NEEDLE ENOUGH TO GAIN GROUND ON THE ELITE 1 THROUGH 5 RANKED RECRUITERS.

You’ve been watching videos of the early 90’s teams, and maybe you’ve already seen the one I’ve provided here. Thing is, those teams were the result of FOUR SUCCESSIVE NUMBER ONE RECRUITING CLASSES. To be honest, that’s almost – metaphorically speaking – AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE BETTER than any ND recruiting performance SINCE.

The other stat worth NOTING is that Gerry Faust had 3 NUMBER ONE CLASSES and another, though not number 1, ranks 7th in ND HISTORY – the 84/TIM BROWN CLASS. But since Faust was a LOUSY COACH, IT DIDN’T MATTER.

Bottom line, we have Freeman performing well as a recruiter BUT NOT AT THE SAME LEVEL OF THE TEAMS he needs to be able to BEAT CONSISTENTLY. At the same time, while he may be a better coach than Faust, THERE’S NO EVIDENCE SO FAR THAT HE’S AS GOOD AS EITHER HOLTZ OR KELLY. In fact, based on watching his SIDELINE DEMEANOR, I already doubt that he’s on their level on an IN-GAME BASIS.

So, there’s NO WAY TO KNOW YET where Freeman is headed. But YEAR THREE SHOULD TELL A LOT. Yet, as I’ve said from the moment he was hired – THIS MAN FACES A VERY TOUGH CLIMB – and the notion that it’s any kind of a LOCK that he will turn out as good as Holtz and/or Kelly – let alone better – seems TO ME not only RIDICULOUSLY PREMATURE but perhaps TOTALLY UNFOUNDED as well.

WHICH IS WHY I REMAIN A FULL-THROATED SKEPTIC.

You said it all.

Some folks don't realize how much talent ND was able to field in depth. Winning even when playing sloppy.

Remember the 1992 Sugar Bowl vs Florida? ND was #18 while Florida was #3! Jerome Bettis put on a memorable performance. The score didn't do justice to how ND put them to the sword. Even in spite of 4 turnovers and a bad 1st half!

ND had the players to bully a win when the chips were down. Power.

Disclaimer: I'm not bashing ND. Again, I fully root for the Irish. Just would love to see that kind of Irish team again. It's never been even close since.

 

[chaseball]

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO DEADIRISHPOET'S MOST RECENT POST TO ME. FOR SOME REASON, IT DIDN'T APPEAR AS A QUOTED POST.

The most successful teams have the FULL PACKAGE. And it’s true in any sport: the 27, 36, 61 and 98 Yankees; the Jordan Bulls; the Gretzky-Messier Oilers; the Lombardi Packers.

As for the early 90’s ND teams, I think it was the PRESENCE of Rick Mirer then Kevin McDougal that made a great running game even better. Not only were they both good passers but they could run, themselves. Beuerlein, Kent Graham and Powlus were the only three Holtz QB’s who COULDN'T.

Those teams also had excellent receivers. But their key strength may have been the JOE MOORE OFFENSIVE LINES which produced, among other standouts, AA’s Aaron Taylor and Mirko Jurkovic.

Holtz’s offenses, well-oiled machines, seldom got shut down. They were simply too TALENTED.

The video below showcases the overall prowess of the 91 unit against MSU. First, the running games is AWESOME and features 6 backs: Jerome Bettis, Tony Brooks, Reggie Brooks, Rodney Culver, Willie Clark and Ryan Mihalko. Second, the passing game is focused downfield to two terrific wideouts -- Tony Smith and Lake Dawson – and two gifted tight ends – Derek Brown and Irv Smith.

And underscoring it all is a typically talented Joe Moore OL, consisting of Lindsay Knapp, Gene McGuire, Aaron Taylor, Todd Norman and Tim Ruddy.

That 1991 offense does to MSU what this year’s did to Navy, Tennessee State and Central Michigan.

ND/MSU - 1991

As for recruiting, there’s no arguing that in his first two years, Freeman on average has had better classes than Kelly did over 12 years. Not only on a points basis, but also in terms of composite ranking. Kelly’s AVERAGE CLASS rank was a hair over 12, whereas Freeman’s is 9. Yet, while Freeman has been better SO FAR, it hasn’t exactly been NIGHT AND DAY, particularly in light of Kelly’s 9 in 2021.

Also worth noting is that in addition to his recruiting at the same level the year he left as Freeman, Kelly’s performance had been slowly TRENDING UP since he’d taken over a team that had ranked 15 two straight years. While the second of those classes was technically Kelly's, it was largely in place by the time he was hired.

Plus, his 2013 haul was ND’s most highly ranked since 2008 and ranks slightly higher than both of Freeman's classes.

SO, WHILE THERE’s NO QUESTION THAT FREEMAN IS OFF TO A FASTER START THAN KELLY, THE RESULT, SO FAR, ISN’T SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN HOW KELLY WAS DOING WHEN HE LEFT. AND EVEN IF FREEMAN KEEPS PACE AT THE CURRENT LEVEL, IT WON’T MOVE THE NEEDLE ENOUGH TO GAIN GROUND ON THE ELITE 1 THROUGH 5 RANKED RECRUITERS.

You’ve been watching videos of the early 90’s teams, and maybe you’ve already seen the one I’ve provided here. Thing is, those teams were the result of FOUR SUCCESSIVE NUMBER ONE RECRUITING CLASSES. To be honest, that’s almost – metaphorically speaking – AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE BETTER than any ND recruiting performance SINCE.

The other stat worth NOTING is that Gerry Faust had 3 NUMBER ONE CLASSES and another, though not number 1, ranks 7th in ND HISTORY – the 84/TIM BROWN CLASS. But since Faust was a LOUSY COACH, IT DIDN’T MATTER.

Bottom line, we have Freeman performing well as a recruiter BUT NOT AT THE SAME LEVEL OF THE TEAMS he needs to be able to BEAT CONSISTENTLY. At the same time, while he may be a better coach than Faust, THERE’S NO EVIDENCE SO FAR THAT HE’S AS GOOD AS EITHER HOLTZ OR KELLY. In fact, based on watching his SIDELINE DEMEANOR, I already doubt that he’s on their level on an IN-GAME BASIS.

So, there’s NO WAY TO KNOW YET where Freeman is headed. But YEAR THREE SHOULD TELL A LOT. Yet, as I’ve said from the moment he was hired – THIS MAN FACES A VERY TOUGH CLIMB – and the notion that it’s any kind of a LOCK that he will turn out as good as Holtz and/or Kelly – let alone better – seems TO ME not only RIDICULOUSLY PREMATURE but perhaps TOTALLY UNFOUNDED as well.

WHICH IS WHY I REMAIN A FULL-THROATED SKEPTIC.

Awesome post man .. a real pleasure to read!

 

[BGI User 1596]

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO DEADIRISHPOET'S MOST RECENT POST TO ME. FOR SOME REASON, IT DIDN'T APPEAR AS A QUOTED POST.

The most successful teams have the FULL PACKAGE. And it’s true in any sport: the 27, 36, 61 and 98 Yankees; the Jordan Bulls; the Gretzky-Messier Oilers; the Lombardi Packers.

As for the early 90’s ND teams, I think it was the PRESENCE of Rick Mirer then Kevin McDougal that made a great running game even better. Not only were they both good passers but they could run, themselves. Beuerlein, Kent Graham and Powlus were the only three Holtz QB’s who COULDN'T.

Those teams also had excellent receivers. But their key strength may have been the JOE MOORE OFFENSIVE LINES which produced, among other standouts, AA’s Aaron Taylor and Mirko Jurkovic.

Holtz’s offenses, well-oiled machines, seldom got shut down. They were simply too TALENTED.

The video below showcases the overall prowess of the 91 unit against MSU. First, the running games is AWESOME and features 6 backs: Jerome Bettis, Tony Brooks, Reggie Brooks, Rodney Culver, Willie Clark and Ryan Mihalko. Second, the passing game is focused downfield to two terrific wideouts -- Tony Smith and Lake Dawson – and two gifted tight ends – Derek Brown and Irv Smith.

And underscoring it all is a typically talented Joe Moore OL, consisting of Lindsay Knapp, Gene McGuire, Aaron Taylor, Todd Norman and Tim Ruddy.

That 1991 offense does to MSU what this year’s did to Navy, Tennessee State and Central Michigan.

ND/MSU - 1991

As for recruiting, there’s no arguing that in his first two years, Freeman on average has had better classes than Kelly did over 12 years. Not only on a points basis, but also in terms of composite ranking. Kelly’s AVERAGE CLASS rank was a hair over 12, whereas Freeman’s is 9. Yet, while Freeman has been better SO FAR, it hasn’t exactly been NIGHT AND DAY, particularly in light of Kelly’s 9 in 2021.

Also worth noting is that in addition to his recruiting at the same level the year he left as Freeman, Kelly’s performance had been slowly TRENDING UP since he’d taken over a team that had ranked 15 two straight years. While the second of those classes was technically Kelly's, it was largely in place by the time he was hired.

Plus, his 2013 haul was ND’s most highly ranked since 2008 and ranks slightly higher than both of Freeman's classes.

SO, WHILE THERE’s NO QUESTION THAT FREEMAN IS OFF TO A FASTER START THAN KELLY, THE RESULT, SO FAR, ISN’T SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN HOW KELLY WAS DOING WHEN HE LEFT. AND EVEN IF FREEMAN KEEPS PACE AT THE CURRENT LEVEL, IT WON’T MOVE THE NEEDLE ENOUGH TO GAIN GROUND ON THE ELITE 1 THROUGH 5 RANKED RECRUITERS.

You’ve been watching videos of the early 90’s teams, and maybe you’ve already seen the one I’ve provided here. Thing is, those teams were the result of FOUR SUCCESSIVE NUMBER ONE RECRUITING CLASSES. To be honest, that’s almost – metaphorically speaking – AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE BETTER than any ND recruiting performance SINCE.

The other stat worth NOTING is that Gerry Faust had 3 NUMBER ONE CLASSES and another, though not number 1, ranks 7th in ND HISTORY – the 84/TIM BROWN CLASS. But since Faust was a LOUSY COACH, IT DIDN’T MATTER.

Bottom line, we have Freeman performing well as a recruiter BUT NOT AT THE SAME LEVEL OF THE TEAMS he needs to be able to BEAT CONSISTENTLY. At the same time, while he may be a better coach than Faust, THERE’S NO EVIDENCE SO FAR THAT HE’S AS GOOD AS EITHER HOLTZ OR KELLY. In fact, based on watching his SIDELINE DEMEANOR, I already doubt that he’s on their level on an IN-GAME BASIS.

So, there’s NO WAY TO KNOW YET where Freeman is headed. But YEAR THREE SHOULD TELL A LOT. Yet, as I’ve said from the moment he was hired – THIS MAN FACES A VERY TOUGH CLIMB – and the notion that it’s any kind of a LOCK that he will turn out as good as Holtz and/or Kelly – let alone better – seems TO ME not only RIDICULOUSLY PREMATURE but perhaps TOTALLY UNFOUNDED as well.

WHICH IS WHY I REMAIN A FULL-THROATED SKEPTIC.

You must love: War and Peace!

 

[banmate6]

You must love: War and Peace!

I paraphrase Einstein: state it as simply as possible...but no simpler than it really is!

😀

There are no 1 factor solutions to this. ND will be NC if they truly commit to it, adapting to modern rules and competition. That is the only way to get the players they once had...which would open opportunities to bring in the best coaches, who are attuned to this.

It's not that complex, but man do some people have a low threshold for complexity.

🤷

 

[sjb75]

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO DEADIRISHPOET'S MOST RECENT POST TO ME. FOR SOME REASON, IT DIDN'T APPEAR AS A QUOTED POST.

The most successful teams have the FULL PACKAGE. And it’s true in any sport: the 27, 36, 61 and 98 Yankees; the Jordan Bulls; the Gretzky-Messier Oilers; the Lombardi Packers.

As for the early 90’s ND teams, I think it was the PRESENCE of Rick Mirer then Kevin McDougal that made a great running game even better. Not only were they both good passers but they could run, themselves. Beuerlein, Kent Graham and Powlus were the only three Holtz QB’s who COULDN'T.

Those teams also had excellent receivers. But their key strength may have been the JOE MOORE OFFENSIVE LINES which produced, among other standouts, AA’s Aaron Taylor and Mirko Jurkovic.

Holtz’s offenses, well-oiled machines, seldom got shut down. They were simply too TALENTED.

The video below showcases the overall prowess of the 91 unit against MSU. First, the running games is AWESOME and features 6 backs: Jerome Bettis, Tony Brooks, Reggie Brooks, Rodney Culver, Willie Clark and Ryan Mihalko. Second, the passing game is focused downfield to two terrific wideouts -- Tony Smith and Lake Dawson – and two gifted tight ends – Derek Brown and Irv Smith.

And underscoring it all is a typically talented Joe Moore OL, consisting of Lindsay Knapp, Gene McGuire, Aaron Taylor, Todd Norman and Tim Ruddy.

That 1991 offense does to MSU what this year’s did to Navy, Tennessee State and Central Michigan.

ND/MSU - 1991

As for recruiting, there’s no arguing that in his first two years, Freeman on average has had better classes than Kelly did over 12 years. Not only on a points basis, but also in terms of composite ranking. Kelly’s AVERAGE CLASS rank was a hair over 12, whereas Freeman’s is 9. Yet, while Freeman has been better SO FAR, it hasn’t exactly been NIGHT AND DAY, particularly in light of Kelly’s 9 in 2021.

Also worth noting is that in addition to his recruiting at the same level the year he left as Freeman, Kelly’s performance had been slowly TRENDING UP since he’d taken over a team that had ranked 15 two straight years. While the second of those classes was technically Kelly's, it was largely in place by the time he was hired.

Plus, his 2013 haul was ND’s most highly ranked since 2008 and ranks slightly higher than both of Freeman's classes.

SO, WHILE THERE’s NO QUESTION THAT FREEMAN IS OFF TO A FASTER START THAN KELLY, THE RESULT, SO FAR, ISN’T SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN HOW KELLY WAS DOING WHEN HE LEFT. AND EVEN IF FREEMAN KEEPS PACE AT THE CURRENT LEVEL, IT WON’T MOVE THE NEEDLE ENOUGH TO GAIN GROUND ON THE ELITE 1 THROUGH 5 RANKED RECRUITERS.

You’ve been watching videos of the early 90’s teams, and maybe you’ve already seen the one I’ve provided here. Thing is, those teams were the result of FOUR SUCCESSIVE NUMBER ONE RECRUITING CLASSES. To be honest, that’s almost – metaphorically speaking – AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE BETTER than any ND recruiting performance SINCE.

The other stat worth NOTING is that Gerry Faust had 3 NUMBER ONE CLASSES and another, though not number 1, ranks 7th in ND HISTORY – the 84/TIM BROWN CLASS. But since Faust was a LOUSY COACH, IT DIDN’T MATTER.

Bottom line, we have Freeman performing well as a recruiter BUT NOT AT THE SAME LEVEL OF THE TEAMS he needs to be able to BEAT CONSISTENTLY. At the same time, while he may be a better coach than Faust, THERE’S NO EVIDENCE SO FAR THAT HE’S AS GOOD AS EITHER HOLTZ OR KELLY. In fact, based on watching his SIDELINE DEMEANOR, I already doubt that he’s on their level on an IN-GAME BASIS.

So, there’s NO WAY TO KNOW YET where Freeman is headed. But YEAR THREE SHOULD TELL A LOT. Yet, as I’ve said from the moment he was hired – THIS MAN FACES A VERY TOUGH CLIMB – and the notion that it’s any kind of a LOCK that he will turn out as good as Holtz and/or Kelly – let alone better – seems TO ME not only RIDICULOUSLY PREMATURE but perhaps TOTALLY UNFOUNDED as well.

WHICH IS WHY I REMAIN A FULL-THROATED SKEPTIC.

Does anyone read this crap? Who in the hell sits at a keyboard and types 1000 words in this Forum, or thereabouts?

 

[banmate6]

Does anyone read this crap? Who in the hell sits at a keyboard and types 1000 words in this Forum, or thereabouts?

I do...and I have an all day job!

🙂

 

[TPirish]

Charlie Weis was a crappy head coach.

A crap coach that you defended ad nauseum until the day he was fired.

 

[sjb75]

I do...and I have an all day job!

🙂

Bless you. You're a better man than me.

 

[deadirishpoet]

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO DEADIRISHPOET'S MOST RECENT POST TO ME. FOR SOME REASON, IT DIDN'T APPEAR AS A QUOTED POST.

The most successful teams have the FULL PACKAGE. And it’s true in any sport: the 27, 36, 61 and 98 Yankees; the Jordan Bulls; the Gretzky-Messier Oilers; the Lombardi Packers.

As for the early 90’s ND teams, I think it was the PRESENCE of Rick Mirer then Kevin McDougal that made a great running game even better. Not only were they both good passers but they could run, themselves. Beuerlein, Kent Graham and Powlus were the only three Holtz QB’s who COULDN'T.

Those teams also had excellent receivers. But their key strength may have been the JOE MOORE OFFENSIVE LINES which produced, among other standouts, AA’s Aaron Taylor and Mirko Jurkovic.

Holtz’s offenses, well-oiled machines, seldom got shut down. They were simply too TALENTED.

The video below showcases the overall prowess of the 91 unit against MSU. First, the running games is AWESOME and features 6 backs: Jerome Bettis, Tony Brooks, Reggie Brooks, Rodney Culver, Willie Clark and Ryan Mihalko. Second, the passing game is focused downfield to two terrific wideouts -- Tony Smith and Lake Dawson – and two gifted tight ends – Derek Brown and Irv Smith.

And underscoring it all is a typically talented Joe Moore OL, consisting of Lindsay Knapp, Gene McGuire, Aaron Taylor, Todd Norman and Tim Ruddy.

That 1991 offense does to MSU what this year’s did to Navy, Tennessee State and Central Michigan.

ND/MSU - 1991

As for recruiting, there’s no arguing that in his first two years, Freeman on average has had better classes than Kelly did over 12 years. Not only on a points basis, but also in terms of composite ranking. Kelly’s AVERAGE CLASS rank was a hair over 12, whereas Freeman’s is 9. Yet, while Freeman has been better SO FAR, it hasn’t exactly been NIGHT AND DAY, particularly in light of Kelly’s 9 in 2021.

Also worth noting is that in addition to his recruiting at the same level the year he left as Freeman, Kelly’s performance had been slowly TRENDING UP since he’d taken over a team that had ranked 15 two straight years. While the second of those classes was technically Kelly's, it was largely in place by the time he was hired.

Plus, his 2013 haul was ND’s most highly ranked since 2008 and ranks slightly higher than both of Freeman's classes.

SO, WHILE THERE’s NO QUESTION THAT FREEMAN IS OFF TO A FASTER START THAN KELLY, THE RESULT, SO FAR, ISN’T SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN HOW KELLY WAS DOING WHEN HE LEFT. AND EVEN IF FREEMAN KEEPS PACE AT THE CURRENT LEVEL, IT WON’T MOVE THE NEEDLE ENOUGH TO GAIN GROUND ON THE ELITE 1 THROUGH 5 RANKED RECRUITERS.

You’ve been watching videos of the early 90’s teams, and maybe you’ve already seen the one I’ve provided here. Thing is, those teams were the result of FOUR SUCCESSIVE NUMBER ONE RECRUITING CLASSES. To be honest, that’s almost – metaphorically speaking – AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE BETTER than any ND recruiting performance SINCE.

The other stat worth NOTING is that Gerry Faust had 3 NUMBER ONE CLASSES and another, though not number 1, ranks 7th in ND HISTORY – the 84/TIM BROWN CLASS. But since Faust was a LOUSY COACH, IT DIDN’T MATTER.

Bottom line, we have Freeman performing well as a recruiter BUT NOT AT THE SAME LEVEL OF THE TEAMS he needs to be able to BEAT CONSISTENTLY. At the same time, while he may be a better coach than Faust, THERE’S NO EVIDENCE SO FAR THAT HE’S AS GOOD AS EITHER HOLTZ OR KELLY. In fact, based on watching his SIDELINE DEMEANOR, I already doubt that he’s on their level on an IN-GAME BASIS.

So, there’s NO WAY TO KNOW YET where Freeman is headed. But YEAR THREE SHOULD TELL A LOT. Yet, as I’ve said from the moment he was hired – THIS MAN FACES A VERY TOUGH CLIMB – and the notion that it’s any kind of a LOCK that he will turn out as good as Holtz and/or Kelly – let alone better – seems TO ME not only RIDICULOUSLY PREMATURE but perhaps TOTALLY UNFOUNDED as well.

WHICH IS WHY I REMAIN A FULL-THROATED SKEPTIC.

True I did not mention Joe Moore impact and was the reason for the early 90s running game.
That aside with what was done in the early nineties is not out of reach today.
I never suggest MF was the guy but he does have support, but if he is not the blueprint is right there and the AD needs to find a head coach that can implement it.
WHICH IS WHY I CAN HANG ON TO THE IDEA OF THE POSSIBILITY IN MY LIFETIME (at 60) TO NOT ONLY SEE THE IRISH WIN A NC, BUT DOMINATE FOR YEARS

 

[4-4-3]

You said it all.

Some folks don't realize how much talent ND was able to field in depth. Winning even when playing sloppy.

Remember the 1992 Sugar Bowl vs Florida? ND was #18 while Florida was #3! Jerome Bettis put on a memorable performance. The score didn't do justice to how ND put them to the sword. Even in spite of 4 turnovers and a bad 1st half!

ND had the players to bully a win when the chips were down. Power.

Disclaimer: I'm not bashing ND. Again, I fully root for the Irish. Just would love to see that kind of Irish team again. It's never been even close since.

That Sugar Bowl is among my favorite ND games of all time. It's the same 91 team in action that throttled MSU in the video I previously linked.

Here's a NO HUDDLE version of that game:

Florida-ND Sugar Bowl

The real fun begins at about the 20:00 mark -- the start of the second half. Culver and Brooks start ripping off chunky runs, and ND takes command. In the red zone, there are great FULLHOUSE BACKFIELD sets, with Bettis capping it all off down the stretch with three straight TD's.

It was after watching this game YEARS LATER that I dubbed Mirer, Culver, Brooks and Bettis THE FOUR HOLTZMEN.

 

[4-4-3]

You must love: War and Peace!

ABSOLUTELY.

As well as the Iliad, the Henriad (Richard II, Herny IV-Part 1, Henry IV-Part 2, Henry V read as a single epic), Leaves of Grass, Dos Passos's USA trilogy (The 42nd Parallel, 1919, The Big Money), Sartre's Roads to Freedom trilogy (The Age of Reason, The Reprieve, Iron in the Soul) and the fifteen interlocking WWII espionage novels comprising Alan Furst's Night Soldiers opus.

Sometimes, YOU MUST GO LONG.

 

[FightingIrish44]

ABSOLUTELY.

As well as the Iliad, the Henriad (Richard II, Herny IV-Part 1, Henry IV-Part 2, Henry V read as a single epic), Leaves of Grass, Dos Passos's USA trilogy (The 42nd Parallel, 1919, The Big Money), Sartre's Roads to Freedom trilogy (The Age of Reason, The Reprieve, Iron in the Soul) and the fifteen interlocking WWII espionage novels comprising Alan Furst's Night Soldiers opus.

Sometimes, YOU MUST GO LONG.

Any non-fiction recommendations for the first or second world war?

Sleepwalkers, Castles of Steel, The Fall of the Ottomans are a couple of mine for WWI.

 

[4-4-3]

True I did not mention Joe Moore impact and was the reason for the early 90s running game.
That aside with what was done in the early nineties is not out of reach today.
I never suggest MF was the guy but he does have support, but if he is not the blueprint is right there and the AD needs to find a head coach that can implement it.
WHICH IS WHY I CAN HANG ON TO THE IDEA OF THE POSSIBILITY IN MY LIFETIME (at 60) TO NOT ONLY SEE THE IRISH WIN A NC, BUT DOMINATE FOR YEARS

FAIR ENOUGH.

But then I have FIFTEEN YEARS ON YOU, so, IN THEORY, much poorer odds.

Still, MY MAIN CONCERN is that ND could stay PERMANENTLY in reach -- yet, without EVER grabbing the BRASS RING. And that's because it isn't its football program that gets to DECIDE this issue. It's the ACADEMICS-FIRST ADMIN.

But then, how can ND maintain it's SIMON-PURE commitment to academics and still expect to attain SUPREMACY when many of the schools that DOMINATE THE SPORT operate on a much more FLEXIBLE BASIS? Where is the MAGIC SAUCE that will enable ND to do just as well as Alabama et al. while IN REALITY drawing from a SMALLER TALENT POOL?

Sure, ND can offer ANY OF THE MARQUEE RECRUITS and probably within certain limits does. But TOO MANY of them either aren't sufficiently ACADEMICALLY INCLINED or simply want an overall MORE USER FRIENDLY college experience. Football is HARD ENOUGH. I learned that myself, merely playing D-III ball at a Little Ivy.

Could the NUMBER ONE ACADEMIC SCHOOL in the country ever win an NC in FOOTBALL? I doubt it.

ND's cumulative rank academically between 1996 and 2020 was 19. During that same period, it was ranked in football 13 times. It's average rank was 12.84 -- and 12.86 when extending the exercise to include the 2022 season. But during the 12 seasons it wasn't ranked, it's W/L record ranked only in the 56th percentile.

But let's be more generous. Since 2017, ND averages out at 11. Which is in the same range as its academic ranking.

During the same period, the top four rated academic schools were Princeton, Harvard, Yale and Stanford. Among those, Stanford, I suppose, could in some WILDLY IMPROBABLE YEAR achieve BOTH. But not the other three.

Others in the top 30 academcially that have the ACTUAL FIREPOWER to win an NC ARE ALL IN THE BOTTOM QUADRANT: UCLA (25), Michigan (26), North Carolina (29) and USC (30). Though in fact, only Michigan and USC are likely to.

The remaining Power 5 programs on the list include Duke (7), Northwestern (12), Rice (17), Vanderbilt (18), Cal-Berkeley (21), Virginia (23) and Wake Forest (27) -- NONE of which is likely to win an NC in the FORESEEABLE FUTURE, if EVER.

ND then finds itself in the middle of the pack, both among the top 25 football programs and the top 30 universities. But while UCLA, Michigan, North Carolina and USC are UNLIKELY to move higher academically -- nor do I expect that that worries them -- ND's emphasis is likely to continue to be on GREATER ACADMEIC EXCELLENCE.

Unless SOMETHING RADICALLY CHANGES IN ND'S ACADEMIC MISSION, I can't see how ND FOOTBALL can realize the necessary structural changes that will enable it to compete for NC's on an annual basis.

So, unless there's some HIDDEN CADRE of HUNGRY, ND-FIRST STUDENT-ATHLETES out there just waiting for Marcus Freeman to DISCOVER them, I don't see ND doing much more than HOLDING SERVE in football . . .

. . . even as ND, THE INSTITUTION, tries harder to ELEVATE ITSELF into the TOP TEN, academically.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

Any non-fiction recommendations for the first or second world war?

Sleepwalkers, Castles of Steel, The Fall of the Ottomans are a couple of mine for WWI.

I am just finishing the third volume of Ian Toll's Pacific War trilogy. I have always had an interest in the Pacific conflict during WWII, and Toll's trilogy may be the best I have read on it. He has an easy writing style, unlike many of the ponderous works on the subject, and he gives some interesting back stories on the main figures in the conflict. I highly recommend the trilogy.

 

[4-4-3]

Any non-fiction recommendations for the first or second world war?

Sleepwalkers, Castles of Steel, The Fall of the Ottomans are a couple of mine for WWI.

Hitler's Generals, Corelli Barnett

Barbarossa, Alan Clark

The Guns of August, Barbara Tuchman

Ardennes, 1944, Anthony Beevor

There are others I've enjoyed. But I'm in RAINY BERMUDA right now and out of range of my library.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND Barbarossa. It's the most gripping account of the NAZI-SOVIET conflict I've read.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

I seem to recall that many posters here who are now calling for Marcus Freeman's head, or who argue that Freeman is in way over his head, were all aboard the Luke Fickell train when Kelly left for LSU. Funny that I don't hear those same arguments being made now. I guess people have become fickle over Fickell.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Hitler's Generals, Corelli Barnett

Barbarossa, Alan Clark

The Guns of August, Barbara Tuchman

Ardennes, 1944, Anthony Beevor

There are others I've enjoyed. But I'm in RAINY BERMUDA right now and out of range of my library.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND Barbarossa. It's the most gripping account of the NAZI-SOVIET conflict I've read.

The Guns of August was one of the first WWI books I read. Excellent book.

I plan to read all of Beevor’s recent books and know I read one I think called The Second World War.

Cornelius Ryan had a trilogy. His book The Last Battle is Germany v Russia towards the end of the war.

 

[FightingIrish44]

I am just finishing the third volume of Ian Toll's Pacific War trilogy. I have always had an interest in the Pacific conflict during WWII, and Toll's trilogy may be the best I have read on it. He has an easy writing style, unlike many of the ponderous works on the subject, and he gives some interesting back stories on the main figures in the conflict. I highly recommend the trilogy.

Good suggestion on Toll. I read his first two books on the Pacific. Excellent. I substituted The Fleet at Flood Tide for Toll’s third book because it hadn’t come out yet but I will eventually read it.

Rick Atkinson’s WWII trilogy is excellent as well. It’s very informative but reads like a novel. Its the campaigns in North Africa, France and Italy. He’s now working on a Revolutionary War trilogy.

 

[sjb75]

FAIR ENOUGH.

But then I have FIFTEEN YEARS ON YOU, so, IN THEORY, much poorer odds.

Still, MY MAIN CONCERN is that ND could stay PERMANENTLY in reach -- yet, without EVER grabbing the BRASS RING. And that's because it isn't its football program that gets to DECIDE this issue. It's the ACADEMICS-FIRST ADMIN.

But then, how can ND maintain it's SIMON-PURE commitment to academics and still expect to attain SUPREMACY when many of the schools that DOMINATE THE SPORT operate on a much more FLEXIBLE BASIS? Where is the MAGIC SAUCE that will enable ND to do just as well as Alabama et al. while IN REALITY drawing from a SMALLER TALENT POOL?

Sure, ND can offer ANY OF THE MARQUEE RECRUITS and probably within certain limits does. But TOO MANY of them either aren't sufficiently ACADEMICALLY INCLINED or simply want an overall MORE USER FRIENDLY college experience. Football is HARD ENOUGH. I learned that myself, merely playing D-III ball at a Little Ivy.

Could the NUMBER ONE ACADEMIC SCHOOL in the country ever win an NC in FOOTBALL? I doubt it.

ND's cumulative rank academically between 1996 and 2020 was 19. During that same period, it was ranked in football 13 times. It's average rank was 12.84 -- and 12.86 when extending the exercise to include the 2022 season. But during the 12 seasons it wasn't ranked, it's W/L record ranked only in the 56th percentile.

But let's be more generous. Since 2017, ND averages out at 11. Which is in the same range as its academic ranking.

During the same period, the top four rated academic schools were Princeton, Harvard, Yale and Stanford. Among those, Stanford, I suppose, could in some WILDLY IMPROBABLE YEAR achieve BOTH. But not the other three.

Others in the top 30 academcially that have the ACTUAL FIREPOWER to win an NC ARE ALL IN THE BOTTOM QUADRANT: UCLA (25), Michigan (26), North Carolina (29) and USC (30). Though in fact, only Michigan and USC are likely to.

The remaining Power 5 programs on the list include Duke (7), Northwestern (12), Rice (17), Vanderbilt (18), Cal-Berkeley (21), Virginia (23) and Wake Forest (27) -- NONE of which is likely to win an NC in the FORESEEABLE FUTURE, if EVER.

ND then finds itself in the middle of the pack, both among the top 25 football programs and the top 30 universities. But while UCLA, Michigan, North Carolina and USC are UNLIKELY to move higher academically -- nor do I expect that that worries them -- ND's emphasis is likely to continue to be on GREATER ACADMEIC EXCELLENCE.

Unless SOMETHING RADICALLY CHANGES IN ND'S ACADEMIC MISSION, I can't see how ND FOOTBALL can realize the necessary structural changes that will enable it to compete for NC's on an annual basis.

So, unless there's some HIDDEN CADRE of HUNGRY, ND-FIRST STUDENT-ATHLETES out there just waiting for Marcus Freeman to DISCOVER them, I don't see ND doing much more than HOLDING SERVE in football . . .

. . . even as ND, THE INSTITUTION, tries harder to ELEVATE ITSELF into the TOP TEN, academically.

Nausea.

 

[deadirishpoet]

FAIR ENOUGH.

But then I have FIFTEEN YEARS ON YOU, so, IN THEORY, much poorer odds.

Still, MY MAIN CONCERN is that ND could stay PERMANENTLY in reach -- yet, without EVER grabbing the BRASS RING. And that's because it isn't its football program that gets to DECIDE this issue. It's the ACADEMICS-FIRST ADMIN.

But then, how can ND maintain it's SIMON-PURE commitment to academics and still expect to attain SUPREMACY when many of the schools that DOMINATE THE SPORT operate on a much more FLEXIBLE BASIS? Where is the MAGIC SAUCE that will enable ND to do just as well as Alabama et al. while IN REALITY drawing from a SMALLER TALENT POOL?

Sure, ND can offer ANY OF THE MARQUEE RECRUITS and probably within certain limits does. But TOO MANY of them either aren't sufficiently ACADEMICALLY INCLINED or simply want an overall MORE USER FRIENDLY college experience. Football is HARD ENOUGH. I learned that myself, merely playing D-III ball at a Little Ivy.

Could the NUMBER ONE ACADEMIC SCHOOL in the country ever win an NC in FOOTBALL? I doubt it.

ND's cumulative rank academically between 1996 and 2020 was 19. During that same period, it was ranked in football 13 times. It's average rank was 12.84 -- and 12.86 when extending the exercise to include the 2022 season. But during the 12 seasons it wasn't ranked, it's W/L record ranked only in the 56th percentile.

But let's be more generous. Since 2017, ND averages out at 11. Which is in the same range as its academic ranking.

During the same period, the top four rated academic schools were Princeton, Harvard, Yale and Stanford. Among those, Stanford, I suppose, could in some WILDLY IMPROBABLE YEAR achieve BOTH. But not the other three.

Others in the top 30 academcially that have the ACTUAL FIREPOWER to win an NC ARE ALL IN THE BOTTOM QUADRANT: UCLA (25), Michigan (26), North Carolina (29) and USC (30). Though in fact, only Michigan and USC are likely to.

The remaining Power 5 programs on the list include Duke (7), Northwestern (12), Rice (17), Vanderbilt (18), Cal-Berkeley (21), Virginia (23) and Wake Forest (27) -- NONE of which is likely to win an NC in the FORESEEABLE FUTURE, if EVER.

ND then finds itself in the middle of the pack, both among the top 25 football programs and the top 30 universities. But while UCLA, Michigan, North Carolina and USC are UNLIKELY to move higher academically -- nor do I expect that that worries them -- ND's emphasis is likely to continue to be on GREATER ACADMEIC EXCELLENCE.

Unless SOMETHING RADICALLY CHANGES IN ND'S ACADEMIC MISSION, I can't see how ND FOOTBALL can realize the necessary structural changes that will enable it to compete for NC's on an annual basis.

So, unless there's some HIDDEN CADRE of HUNGRY, ND-FIRST STUDENT-ATHLETES out there just waiting for Marcus Freeman to DISCOVER them, I don't see ND doing much more than HOLDING SERVE in football . . .

. . . even as ND, THE INSTITUTION, tries harder to ELEVATE ITSELF into the TOP TEN, academically.

Fair enough brother, from what I understand the acidemics in the 1990s were a little tougher, someone else might know different, and ND was still at a high level on football....for what it's worth novel's are challenging for me because I find myself drifting though i have read the series by Steven Donaldson.
Audio books are a God send
I do make it an effort to read your ideas/takes on the situation at hand because it interests me

 

[4-4-3]

The Guns of August was one of the first WWI books I read. Excellent book.

I plan to read all of Beevor’s recent books and know I read one I think called The Second World War.

Cornelius Ryan had a trilogy. His book The Last Battle is Germany v Russia towards the end of the war.

The Guns of August was one of the first WWI books I read. Excellent book.

I plan to read all of Beevor’s recent books and know I read one I think called The Second World War.

Cornelius Ryan had a trilogy. His book The Last Battle is Germany v Russia towards the end of the war.

Yes, The Guns of August is a classic. Her book about la belle epoque, The Proud Tower, is also good as well as her book about the calamities of the 14th century, the name of which escapes me.

I remembered another one -- John Keegan's The First World War. You may know Keegan. He's a major military historian. I've also read his The Face of Battle and The Mask of Command.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Yes, The Guns of August is a classic. Her book about la belle epoque, The Proud Tower, is also good as well as her book about the calamities of the 14th century, the name of which escapes me.

I remembered another one -- John Keegan's The First World War. You may know Keegan. He's a major military historian. I've also read his The Face of Battle and The Mask of Command.

Long post. Some scheme talk and defensive issues.

I started the Proud Tower but found it a little too specific and didn’t want to use up whatever limited space I have in my brain for it. I may give it another go as it does sound interesting learning about the period. The Mask of Command sounds interesting — I can’t wait for that Napoleon movie to come out. I’ve read Keegan’s First World War.

Back to the subject, I find myself agreeing with most of the stuff you say about the administration and academic requirements and all of that. However, I tend to look at execution in games in then decide whether its a case of having worse athletes or not.

For example, even though the defense is highly rated statistically, I see issues on the first three plays of the game from the ND defense against Clemson. None of it is related to the physical abilities of the athlete.

On the second drive, play one, Clemson scored on a long TD run. The safety was too aggressive with his blitz. Bothelo’s alignment didn’t allow for him to execute his assignment and this widened the hole for the back and left Liufau out to dry. A very similar play occurred against Central Michigan earlier in the year. There were all kinds of issues with the defense against CMU and NC State.

Then there was a 3rd and goal from the 1 at 8:15 of the 3rd quarter. I see about four issues. One sort of led to two others. Not a good alignment in my estimation and Clemson got away with leaving two defenders unblocked. Some credit to Clemson for the formation and gameplan, but ND’s players actually defended the play well. Even though it was defended well, they still had virtually no chance because of their defensive alignment and assignments.

Against Louisville, there was at least once (7:40 1st quarter), and possibly twice, where Liufau should have been playing the pitch on option. By alignment it doesn’t make sense for him to be on the QB though I think I know why he ended up on QB. As soon as he saw the QB and back coming at him, he should have sprinted outside to cover the back and let the interior of the defense and the safety play the QB. The play might have been successful anyway for Louisville but at least it would be from attacking the soft spot of the defense rather than innate unsoundness. It was an easy 8 yards on a 2nd and 5 near the ND 20. It set up a TD.

UNLV scored a touchdown off of a similar play and mess up by Liufau in 2022. It leads me to believe that ND’s staff isn’t going over option responsibilities…if you get this, then do this. “If you get that, then do that” type of thing.

If you recall, it was 17-13 Louisville until about 11:30 in the 4th. ND was in it late. Clemson too. Ohio State they sent out 10 guys twice and gave up a 3rd and 19. What happened on that 3rd and 19 was something that has plagued ND the last three years…our guys don’t seem to know when we’re on the goalline. Issues against Cincy in 2021, OSU 2022 and CMU/OSU this year. ND has to coach better.

 

[4-4-3]

Long post. Some scheme talk and defensive issues.

I started the Proud Tower but found it a little too specific and didn’t want to use up whatever limited space I have in my brain for it. I may give it another go as it does sound interesting learning about the period. The Mask of Command sounds interesting — I can’t wait for that Napoleon movie to come out. I’ve read Keegan’s First World War.

Back to the subject, I find myself agreeing with most of the stuff you say about the administration and academic requirements and all of that. However, I tend to look at execution in games in then decide whether its a case of having worse athletes or not.

For example, even though the defense is highly rated statistically, I see issues on the first three plays of the game from the ND defense against Clemson. None of it is related to the physical abilities of the athlete.

On the second drive, play one, Clemson scored on a long TD run. The safety was too aggressive with his blitz. Bothelo’s alignment didn’t allow for him to execute his assignment and this widened the hole for the back and left Liufau out to dry. A very similar play occurred against Central Michigan earlier in the year. There were all kinds of issues with the defense against CMU and NC State.

Then there was a 3rd and goal from the 1 at 8:15 of the 3rd quarter. I see about four issues. One sort of led to two others. Not a good alignment in my estimation and Clemson got away with leaving two defenders unblocked. Some credit to Clemson for the formation and gameplan, but ND’s players actually defended the play well. Even though it was defended well, they still had virtually no chance because of their defensive alignment and assignments.

Against Louisville, there was at least once (7:40 1st quarter), and possibly twice, where Liufau should have been playing the pitch on option. By alignment it doesn’t make sense for him to be on the QB though I think I know why he ended up on QB. As soon as he saw the QB and back coming at him, he should have sprinted outside to cover the back and let the interior of the defense and the safety play the QB. The play might have been successful anyway for Louisville but at least it would be from attacking the soft spot of the defense rather than innate unsoundness. It was an easy 8 yards on a 2nd and 5 near the ND 20. It set up a TD.

UNLV scored a touchdown off of a similar play and mess up by Liufau in 2022. It leads me to believe that ND’s staff isn’t going over option responsibilities…if you get this, then do this. “If you get that, then do that” type of thing.

If you recall, it was 17-13 Louisville until about 11:30 in the 4th. ND was in it late. Clemson too. Ohio State they sent out 10 guys twice and gave up a 3rd and 19. What happened on that 3rd and 19 was something that has plagued ND the last three years…our guys don’t seem to know when we’re on the goalline. Issues against Cincy in 2021, OSU 2022 and CMU/OSU this year. ND has to coach better.

Great ANALYTICAL DECONSTRUCTION.

What do you do -- watch each game afterwards, play-by-play? I wonder what ND's coaching staff would say about your comments as, surely, they must do the same thing. And yet, these issues REMAIN.

Which leads me to ask why you didn't offer a CONCLUSION to your analysis. So then, what's your thought as to why the D has these kinds of flaws.

All I can add is I still don't think ND has the kind of atlhletes it had under Holtz. Watch videos of any Holtz coached game, and you will see aggressive D, with extremely HARD-HITTING and tireless BALL PURSUIT. Holtz's D consisted of some really MEAN DUDES. I don't see either the CHIP or the SWAGGER in ND's current D. They play well -- probably most of the time -- but they don't INTIMIDATE.

My other point relates to coaching.

We never saw this sort of MALFUNCTION under Ara, Devine or Holtz. Yet, it was RAMPANT under Kuharich, and Faust. Both were poor in-game coaches. Plus POOR ADMINSTRATORS. Brennan, Davie and Ty were also less than adequate CEO's. In each case, the JOB WAS TOO BIG FOR THEM.

My concern regarding Freeman is that he, too, may not be up to the task of handling ALL ASPECTS of the job. Is his only positive -- recruting and cheerleading? I can't recall hearing any praise for him as respects any other aspect of the job.

More on this another time. My wife is clamoring for LUNCH.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Great ANALYTICAL DECONSTRUCTION.

What do you do -- watch each game afterwards, play-by-play? I wonder what ND's coaching staff would say about your comments as, surely, they must do the same thing. And yet, these issues REMAIN.

Which leads me to ask why you didn't offer a CONCLUSION to your analysis. So then, what's your thought as to why the D has these kinds of flaws.

All I can add is I still don't think ND has the kind of atlhletes it had under Holtz. Watch videos of any Holtz coached game, and you will see aggressive D, with extremely HARD-HITTING and tireless BALL PURSUIT. Holtz's D consisted of some really MEAN DUDES. I don't see either the CHIP or the SWAGGER in ND's current D. They play well -- probably most of the time -- but they don't INTIMIDATE.

My other point relates to coaching.

We never saw this sort of MALFUNCTION under Ara, Devine or Holtz. Yet, it was RAMPANT under Kuharich, and Faust. Both were poor in-game coaches. Plus POOR ADMINSTRATORS. Brennan, Davie and Ty were also less than adequate CEO's. In each case, the JOB WAS TOO BIG FOR THEM.

My concern regarding Freeman is that he, too, may not be up to the task of handling ALL ASPECTS of the job. Is his only positive, recruting and cheerleading? I can't recall hearing any praise for him as respects any other aspect of the job.

More on this another time. My wife is clamoring for LUNCH.

Great ANALYTICAL DECONSTRUCTION.

What do you do -- watch each game afterwards, play-by-play? I wonder what ND's coaching staff would say about your comments as, surely, they must do the same thing. And yet, these issues REMAIN.

Which leads me to ask why you didn't offer a CONCLUSION to your analysis. So then, what's your thought as to why the D has these kinds of flaws.

All I can add is I still don't think ND has the kind of atlhletes it had under Holtz. Watch videos of any Holtz coached game, and you will see aggressive D, with extremely HARD-HITTING and tireless BALL PURSUIT. Holtz's D consisted of some really MEAN DUDES. I don't see either the CHIP or the SWAGGER in ND's current D. They play well -- probably most of the time -- but they don't INTIMIDATE.

My other point relates to coaching.

We never saw this sort of MALFUNCTION under Ara, Devine or Holtz. Yet, it was RAMPANT under Kuharich, and Faust. Both are were poor in-game coaches. Plus POOR ADMINSTRATORS. Brennan, Davie and Ty were also less than adequate CEO's. In each case, the JOB WAS TOO BIG FOR THEM.

My concern regarding Freeman is that he, too, may not be up to the task of handling ALL ASPECTS of the job. Is his only positive, recruting and cheerleading? I can't recall hearing any praise for him as respects any other aspect of the job.

More on this another time. My wife is clamoring for LUNCH.

Yes I break down every play. My beloved ND only plays 13 times a year and I love football so why not?

My conclusion is that ND needs to coach and prepare their guys better. You’re always trying to correct mistakes. I don’t see the point in these safeties flying in out of control when they blitz and they’re unblocked. There should also be some sort of “tag” to a playcall that signifies we’re in the redzone and to adjust your play.

You’re probably right on ND having better athletes during Holtz. But ND had the athletes to go 12-0 this year just like many teams do — actually going 12-0 is a different story. Coaching does so much and you see the same guys doing it over and over again because they’re clearly superior. Take a look at Jerry Kill’s coaching resume. Success everywhere he goes.

As far as Freeman goes, its very apparent that he’s involved in the defense. I’m inexperienced with regard to coaching, but the head guy is signing off on everything in his program — its his program. Its not necessarily that he’s recruiter and cheerleader. He should be working with the OC on gameplans and what the offensive schemes are. Same with defense.

Just a for instance, Brian Kelly was more of an offensive guy. In year 1, Navy ran the ball all over ND. They were totally unprepared to defend that offense even though they thought they were prepared. Either he left it up to Diaco to come up with the defense or they both just put in a very basic effort to prepare for that offense — that’s very obvious. Kelly didn’t do his job as HEAD coach to ensure that the team was adequately prepared for Navy’s offense. Could you imagine going 11-1 and being shut out of a title opportunity because you lost to Navy?

I feel like when people talk about hard-hitting it tends to be a more after the fact thing. Liufau is very physical..and many people think he sucks (not me although he has regressed this year IMO). Being in proper position and securing the tackle is more important. How else did Navy field good teams for 15 straight years or how will Air Force likely win 10 games for the 4th straight year minus the Covid year? Scheme and execution.

I’m kind of rambling but all we can do is hope Freeman can effectively evaluate each time a mistake is made and catalog that for next time. He should see what happened on that 3rd and goal I cited and think okay, “we need Hart to do this..we should change these players alignments because otherwise they’re kind of wasting away covering nothing and we have a limited chance of getting the stop.”

He did learn after the 2022 USC game.

 

[4-4-3]

Yes I break down every play. My beloved ND only plays 13 times a year and I love football so why not?

My conclusion is that ND needs to coach and prepare their guys better. You’re always trying to correct mistakes. I don’t see the point in these safeties flying in out of control when they blitz and they’re unblocked. There should also be some sort of “tag” to a playcall that signifies we’re in the redzone and to adjust your play.

You’re probably right on ND having better athletes during Holtz. But ND had the athletes to go 12-0 this year just like many teams do — actually going 12-0 is a different story. Coaching does so much and you see the same guys doing it over and over again because they’re clearly superior. Take a look at Jerry Kill’s coaching resume. Success everywhere he goes.

As far as Freeman goes, its very apparent that he’s involved in the defense. I’m inexperienced with regard to coaching, but the head guy is signing off on everything in his program — its his program. Its not necessarily that he’s recruiter and cheerleader. He should be working with the OC on gameplans and what the offensive schemes are. Same with defense.

Just a for instance, Brian Kelly was more of an offensive guy. In year 1, Navy ran the ball all over ND. They were totally unprepared to defend that offense even though they thought they were prepared. Either he left it up to Diaco to come up with the defense or they both just put in a very basic effort to prepare for that offense — that’s very obvious. Kelly didn’t do his job as HEAD coach to ensure that the team was adequately prepared for Navy’s offense. Could you imagine going 11-1 and being shut out of a title opportunity because you lost to Navy?

I feel like when people talk about hard-hitting it tends to be a more after the fact thing. Liufau is very physical..and many people think he sucks (not me although he has regressed this year IMO). Being in proper position and securing the tackle is more important. How else did Navy field good teams for 15 straight years or how will Air Force likely win 10 games for the 4th straight year minus the Covid year? Scheme and execution.

I’m kind of rambling but all we can do is hope Freeman can effectively evaluate each time a mistake is made and catalog that for next time. He should see what happened on that 3rd and goal I cited and think okay, “we need Hart to do this..we should change these players alignments because otherwise they’re kind of wasting away covering nothing and we have a limited chance of getting the stop.”

He did learn after the 2022 USC game.

I hear you.

I just don't think Freeman is THAT GOOD. This is HIS regime, and if the team isn't prepared, that's on HIM, right? So, if I'm right and he just isn't as good -- in terms of INNATE ABILITY -- as Holtz and other successful ND coaches, how much can he ACTUALLY bring to the table?

I see him more as a POSITION coach and MAYBE as a coordinator, though I wasn't that impressed by his defense either.

The BODY LANGUAGE read I get from him on the sidelines is of someone simply trying to STAY OUT OF THE WAY so as not to SCREW THINGS UP. I know that's NOT what he's doing, but it's still something -- at least as I see it -- he PROJECTS. I see few signs of confidence and ZERO signs of COMMAND.

To me he looks earnest, aspirational and NERVOUS. Does he inspire confidence in you? He certainly doesn't in ME.

Obviously, this is my own HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE VIEW, and I realize others may not see it this way, while others will no doubt agree.

To me, the whole thing is REMINISCENT of the Faust, Davie, Ty and Weis years. Another HIGH-MINDED PROJECT done on a completely SPEC BASIS.

 

[banmate6]

I hear you.

I just don't think Freeman is THAT GOOD. This is HIS regime, and if the team isn't prepared, that's on HIM, right? So, if I'm right and he just isn't as good -- in terms of INNATE ABILITY -- as Holtz and other successful ND coaches, how much can he ACTUALLY bring to the table?

I see him more as a POSITION coach and MAYBE as a coordinator, though I wasn't that impressed by his defense either.

The BODY LANGUAGE read I get from him on the sidelines is of someone simply trying to STAY OUT OF THE WAY so as not to SCREW THINGS UP. I know that's NOT what he's doing, but it's still something -- at least as I see it -- he projects. I see few signs of confidence and ZERO signs of COMMAND.

To me he looks earnest, aspirational and NERVOUS. Does he inspire confidence in you? He certainly doesn't in ME.

Obviously, this is my own HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE VIEW, and I realize others may not see it this way, while others will no doubt agree.

To me, the whole thing is REMINISCENT of the Faust, Davie, Ty and Weis years. Another HIGH-MINDED PROJECT done on a completely SPEC BASIS.

I generally agree. By now I believe Freeman is learning on the job. He is an ok coach but not great...and I am not sure anymore if he can become great. The fact is the burden of proof is on him.

As we've all debated incessantly, Freeman faces factors that would challenge Nick Saban, never mind himself.

ND right now remains a huge distance away from what you and I lived in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s.

Disclaimer to others: I am not being negative and enthusiastically root for ND...just hoping for a NC.

 

[FightingIrish44]

I hear you.

I just don't think Freeman is THAT GOOD. This is HIS regime, and if the team isn't prepared, that's on HIM, right? So, if I'm right and he just isn't as good -- in terms of INNATE ABILITY -- as Holtz and other successful ND coaches, how much can he ACTUALLY bring to the table?

I see him more as a POSITION coach and MAYBE as a coordinator, though I wasn't that impressed by his defense either.

The BODY LANGUAGE read I get from him on the sidelines is of someone simply trying to STAY OUT OF THE WAY so as not to SCREW THINGS UP. I know that's NOT what he's doing, but it's still something -- at least as I see it -- he projects. I see few signs of confidence and ZERO signs of COMMAND.

To me he looks earnest, aspirational and NERVOUS. Does he inspire confidence in you? He certainly doesn't in ME.

Obviously, this is my own HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE VIEW, and I realize others may not see it this way, while others will no doubt agree.

To me, the whole thing is REMINISCENT of the Faust, Davie, Ty and Weis years. Another HIGH-MINDED PROJECT done on a completely SPEC BASIS.

I hear ya man and agree with you. And Holtz had a whole lot of head coaching experience before ND. Year 3 will be a big tell about Freeman.

He just has to be a willing learner and be willing to look himself in the mirror and evaluate himself. I’m not sure Brian Kelly did that even though he’s clearly a talented head coach. He was way too hands-off with the defense. It was obvious in 2015 that Van Gorder wasn’t working out. Maybe Kelly should have seen it in 2014?

 

[4-4-3]

I hear ya man and agree with you. And Holtz had a whole lot of head coaching experience before ND. Year 3 will be a big tell about Freeman.

He just has to be a willing learner and be willing to look himself in the mirror and evaluate himself. I’m not sure Brian Kelly did that even though he’s clearly a talented head coach. He was way too hands-off with the defense. It was obvious in 2015 that Van Gorder wasn’t working out. Maybe Kelly should have seen it in 2014?

Kelly had the tools and the EXPERIENCE. What he needed was his COME TO JESUS MOMENT which he got in the form of a 4-8 flop, including his own blindness regarding VG.

But the Kelly who emerged from that debacle had an EXTREMELY GOOD RUN. Yet, it might not have lasted. I've often wondered if he saw that his job at ND would become harder again due to the portal and NIL. And if so, if he didn't factor that into his decision to leave.

Again, SPECULATION.

 

[deadirishpoet]

I generally agree. By now I believe Freeman is learning on the job. He is an ok coach but not great...and I am not sure anymore if he can become great. The fact is the burden of proof is on him.

As we've all debated incessantly, Freeman faces factors that would challenge Nick Saban, never mind himself.

ND right now remains a huge distance away from what you and I lived in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s.

Disclaimer to others: I am not being negative and enthusiastically root for ND...just hoping for a NC.

Name me one head coach that was great into their second season as a HC?
That's not a dig at you brother just my perspective on it

 

[banmate6]

Name me one head coach that was great into their second season as a HC?
That's not a dig at you brother just my perspective on it

Fair enough. I'm just going on my eye test. Some coaches show something in year 2 that seems to indicate something.

I could be wrong, but I feel Freeman is really learning on the job by now.

 

[banmate6]

I agree. I remain surprised how so many posters are knee jerk with unrealistic expectations…not appreciating recruiting challenges that make being elite extremely difficult.

There is nothing egregiously wrong with CBK or Freeman. They play with different cards than Saban. I bet Tommy Rees would have something to say about that!

😀

Aha! See how I stood up for MF!

 

[banmate6]

Fair enough. I'm just going on my eye test. Some coaches show something in year 2 that seems to indicate something.

I could be wrong, but I feel Freeman is really learning on the job by now.

And I said this...that he was learning on the job, but I supported him...and man did he learn fast!!!!

 

[Golson5]

Should have fired him after the fsu game like I said… showed how dumb he was then

Instead we promote him to HC and have him set program back

🤣🤣🤣🤣

This guy has been as wrong as anyone could be on MF

Another huge miss

 

[banmate6]

In my view, a top OC brings ND back to being a top 10 team. But no closer to being an elite NC contender than CBK.

I'm still hoping Freeman can raise recruiting a bit by his persona, which matters. Augmenting it with key transfers. Leverage the brand of course. And improve his coaching.

With NIL and transfers distributing talent, you won't see stacking of skill positions at factories like Alabama as much. So Freeman can narrow the player gap...but I still think it won't be enough.

I watched Alabama and they looked damn good. Beyond ND right now. Just on QB.

Ha ha! I wasn't so far from the truth!

Except for that 1 red highlight!

 

[banmate6]

I generally agree. By now I believe Freeman is learning on the job. He is an ok coach but not great...and I am not sure anymore if he can become great. The fact is the burden of proof is on him.

As we've all debated incessantly, Freeman faces factors that would challenge Nick Saban, never mind himself.

ND right now remains a huge distance away from what you and I lived in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s.

Disclaimer to others: I am not being negative and enthusiastically root for ND...just hoping for a NC.

I'm on a roll!



Freeman sure came through.

1) The college landscape changed with serious acceleration.

2) Freeman learned and mastered the crafter faster than I thought possible...he heard me doubt him becoming a great coach...and said: f*** this clown of a poster, I'll show him!

 

[PHJIndy]

That Sugar Bowl is among my favorite ND games of all time. It's the same 91 team in action that throttled MSU in the video I previously linked.

Here's a NO HUDDLE version of that game:

Florida-ND Sugar Bowl

The real fun begins at about the 20:00 mark -- the start of the second half. Culver and Brooks start ripping off chunky runs, and ND takes command. In the red zone, there are great FULLHOUSE BACKFIELD sets, with Bettis capping it all off down the stretch with three straight TD's.

It was after watching this game YEARS LATER that I dubbed Mirer, Culver, Brooks and Bettis THE FOUR HOLTZMEN.

I remember that game like it was yesterday! I really remember the trembling lips of the "old ball coach!" It was priceless!

 

[PHJIndy]

I hear you.

I just don't think Freeman is THAT GOOD. This is HIS regime, and if the team isn't prepared, that's on HIM, right? So, if I'm right and he just isn't as good -- in terms of INNATE ABILITY -- as Holtz and other successful ND coaches, how much can he ACTUALLY bring to the table?

I see him more as a POSITION coach and MAYBE as a coordinator, though I wasn't that impressed by his defense either.

The BODY LANGUAGE read I get from him on the sidelines is of someone simply trying to STAY OUT OF THE WAY so as not to SCREW THINGS UP. I know that's NOT what he's doing, but it's still something -- at least as I see it -- he PROJECTS. I see few signs of confidence and ZERO signs of COMMAND.

To me he looks earnest, aspirational and NERVOUS. Does he inspire confidence in you? He certainly doesn't in ME.

Obviously, this is my own HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE VIEW, and I realize others may not see it this way, while others will no doubt agree.

To me, the whole thing is REMINISCENT of the Faust, Davie, Ty and Weis years. Another HIGH-MINDED PROJECT done on a completely SPEC BASIS.

Maybe you need to make an immediate appointment with your eye doctor? It seems you just can't get past something.