Too big a stage for Freeman & Co

[banmate6]

Why don't we just have the other team lay down for him. Or should we start every possession at the 50

It's a legitimate point. Hartman is a pocket passer, although he showed decent running at times. But he does need a more complete offense.

I'm not saying Hartman is Jalen Milroe. But he's not been helped. BTW: when would ND get a QB like Milroe? Or any number of Crimson Tide QBs during the Saban era?

Saban builds complete teams due to his roster. ND always is some important component or set of key skill players short.

 

[Golson5]

It's a legitimate point. Hartman is a pocket passer, although he showed decent running at times. But he does need a more complete offense.

I'm not saying Hartman is Jalen Milroe. But he's not been helped. BTW: when would ND get a QB like Milroe? Or any number of Crimson Tide QBs during the Saban era?

Saban builds complete teams due to his roster. ND always is some important component or set of key skill players short.

He was brought in here to raise up the offense. He's in his 6th freaking year. He has one of the best rbs, tes and Lts in cfb. Make some plays. Be accurate. Don't turn the ball over. Get the job done. Pyne and Coan were better.

Stop with the excuses

 

[4-4-3]

Schedules are much easier these days (although 2023 is pretty tough) so that should be taken into account. 72% sounds really disappointing to me. That’s basically less that 9-3 with an occasional 10-3 season. Yikes. Kelly got by on 74% but his first 5 of 7 years were very mediocre. If that 2012 team goes 10-3/11-2, he probably doesn’t survive the 2016 season. His win percentage was raised by his great 5 year run. It was 65.5% his first 7 years.

You mention Tony Rice but I think athletic QB’s are more dangerous these days with the spread formations, options, bootlegs that you see from the gun. There’s more passing with opportunities to scramble than what Holtz was doing with Rice though I admit that’s before my time.

Typing this out makes me nervous about ND’s future haha. Just wish ND wouldn’t have choked against Marshall, Stanford, and Ohio State. 10-3 this year would feel pretty good though. Next year we’re going to see what Freeman is made of.

I hate to say it, but my concern is he tries to out x and o his opposition and the team’s fundamentals suck. Similar to Weis.

Well, game it out.

Why wouldn't Freeman's first years have a high probability of being mediocre as well? Kelly knew the game and how to win. He merely had to figure it out at THE ND LEVEL. Freeman not only has to do that but FINISH LEARNING THE FUNDAMENTALS OF BEING A HEAD COACH.

And this has always been my problem with what I call the FREEMAN PUT. Basically, there's been this feeling that not only would Freeman match Kelly but that he'd also SURPASS him. That's a BALLSY bet as it would require Freeman to be an EXCEPTIONALLY HIGH PERCENTILE COACHING TALENT.

Because this is more about recruiting first-rate talented guys -- by no means, a lock -- and then giving good PEP TALKS before games and at half time.

It's clear Freeman has his attributes, and he hasn't done too badly, but I'VE NEVER SEEN ANY EVIDENCE that his is any kind of PRODIGIOUS FOOTBALL MIND. I mean, we're not talking about Saban or Meyer or Chip Kelly here. At least, not based on MY evaluation.

So, when you bottom line it, 72% wins from a guy like Freeman would be PRETTY DAMN GOOD. And I'd take it right now, if this were some kind of bet and I were a bettor.

Also, bear this in mind: LAYDEN, DEVINE, HOLTZ ALL HAD around 77% W/L RECORDS. And in 24 years of coaching they COLLECTIVELY PRODUCED 2 NC's.

People should think SERIOUSLY about at what height THEY PLACE THE BAR.

 

[4-4-3]

Agreed. There is no need to fire MF, none. However , some changes need to be made. A new OC is one and find a way to retain Golden. As for Freeman? Maybe there is a way to hire an “ advisor “ so to speak , on the nuances of being a head coach. Especially for “ in game “ coaching decisions. It would be bad all around to get rid of MF. I personally think he’ll be very good. The question is , are we going to stick with him through all of the growing pains ?

I take your point, but you are -- not for you, but for FREEMAN -- coming dangerously close to IMPLYING that Freeman is in many ways a FRONT MAN or FIGUREHEAD.

What do they call it at places like Notre Dame? Yes, I remember. AN AMBASSADOR FOR THE UNIVERSITY. Boy, that's a EUPHEMISM I COULD GO TO TOWN WITH BUT WON'T AS I DON'T WANT TO RISK THE THREAD. But it's a potential future theme I'll keep my powder dry for.

I mean, whenever you can't let someone go for reasons that are not GERMANE to performance and at the same time need to hire a "coach" or "tutor", to SORT THEM OUT, it's a sure sign YOU'VE MADE A MISTAKE, i.e. effectively BOXED YOURSELF IN.

So, if ND SHOULD ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT, IT WOULD NOT GO UNNOTICED, especially when the usual remedy would be to FIRE THE INCUMBENT and get someone better.

Think of your characterization: someone to help with "in game" coaching decisions. Yeah, that would be PRETTY BAD when the "coachee" is being paid north of $6 million.

 

[4-4-3]

ND has three critical factors going for it when it comes to attracting the top coaches in the sport:
1. one of the biggest stages in the country (top tv ratings, sold out stadiums virtually every week)
2. an endless pile of cash
3. an opening

That is a very desirable/attractive combination and keeps Notre Dame relevant in any A-list coaching hire because they are only 1 of a very small handful of programs that have this combination.

If a head coach succeeds at the highest level here, he becomes a national celebrity and a college football god. And NDs football program generates enough revenue where they can outbid anybody.

Also Jenkins & Swarbrick are gone after this season, so whoever the new AD & University President are, might be willing to allocate more resources to football and put their stamp on the football program.

So, why would you say then it hasn't HAPPENED? Why aren't THE BEST OF THE BEST banging down ND's door? I mean, we just witnessed the Marcus Freeman EMERGENCY HIRE.

Personally, I don't think it will happen at all unless your hope that the new Admin "MIGHT" allocate more resources to football becomes a definite "WILL."

If a TRULY ELITE coach is hungry to win an NC, I can't see ND as his first choice. Why make your PRIME GOAL in life more difficult to achieve?

There's no secret sauce here. Achieving success is as much about GOAL ALIGNMENT BETWEEN THE PARTIES as anything else. Trouble is, with ND, no such ALIGNMENT IS POSSIBLE.

ND, as a program, is a HEDGED BET. But to win an NC, you have to be 100% ALL IN. And every elite coach who''s won one -- if he knows only one thing -- KNOWS THAT.

 

[tkirish]

I take your point, but you are -- not for you, but for FREEMAN -- coming dangerously close to IMPLYING that Freeman is in many ways a FRONT MAN or FIGUREHEAD.

What do they call it at places like Notre Dame? Yes, I remember. AN AMBASSADOR FOR THE UNIVERSITY. Boy, that's a EUPHEMISM I COULD GO TO TOWN WITH BUT WON'T AS I DON'T WANT TO RISK THE THREAD. But it's a potential future theme I'll keep my powder dry for.

I mean, whenever you can't let someone go for reasons that are not GERMANE to performance and at the same time need to hire a "coach" or "tutor", to SORT THEM OUT, it's a sure sign YOU'VE MADE A MISTAKE, i.e. effectively BOXED YOURSELF IN.

So, if ND SHOULD ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT, IT WOULD NOT GO UNNOTICED, especially when the usual remedy would be to FIRE THE INCUMBENT and get someone better.

Think of your characterization: someone to help with "in game" coaching decisions. Yeah, that would be PRETTY BAD when the "coachee" is being paid north of $6 million.

4-4-3. It’s just an idea. I don’t think they would actually get someone to help like that. But firing him I think would be a bad move. By hiring MF , they took a big gamble. So now the results haven’t been great. In fact you good say the results are below what they should be. If he is going to be here for the next few years , he needs to look at himself and see where he needs to improve. As you’ve said many times, ND isn’t the place to learn on the job. But that is where they are . Not much anyone can do. Gotta ride it out and hope the light goes on.

 

[IrishExpert2288]

The dilemma is Freeman, he reminds me of Gerry Faust. Because he is the perfect ND coach 9 months out of year. You have confirmed ND haters in the media rooting for Marcus Freeman to have success and by proxy rooting for ND football to win games.

The problem is the 3 months where Freeman is not the perfect coach? Happen to be Sept, Oct and Nov. I’ve seen all 4 inexperienced Head Coach’s and it’s been the same story.

Just when you think they have it figured out. Something else breaks. Last year ND played well on the road. The games they lost at OSU & USC were to Top 10 teams. ND played well. But they had 2 humiliating losses at home to bad teams. So we have to fix the home field.

This year ND fixes the home field. The game they lost, they still played great. But, unlike last year, they have stunk on the road. They played like crap at Louisville, Clemson and Duke. So now we have to fix the road for next season.

On top of that Texas A&M is 9 months away and ND will be breaking in a new starting QB, new Strength & Conditioning coach, probably their 3rd OC in 3 years, and possibly a new DC as well.

I don’t care how good the materials are that you use to build a house (recruiting) if the foundation (coaching & player development) are unstable. The house will fall.

 

[TPirish]

The dilemma is Freeman, just like Gerry Faust is the perfect ND coach 9 months out of year. You have confirmed ND haters in the media rooting for Marcus Freeman to have success and by proxy rooting for ND football to win games.

The problem is the 3 months where Freeman is not the perfect coach? Happen to be Sept, Oct and Nov. I’ve seen all 4 inexperienced Head Coach’s and it’s been the same story.

Just when you think they have it figured out. Something else breaks. Last year ND played well on the road. The games they lost at OSU & USC were to Top 10 teams. ND played well. But they had 2 humiliating losses at home to bad teams. So we have to fix the home field.

This year ND fixes the home field. The game they lost, they still played great. But, unlike last year, they have stunk in the road. They played like crap at Louisville, Clemson and Duke. So now we have to fix the road for next season.

On top of that Texas A&M is 9 months away and ND will be breaking in a new starting QB, new Strength & Conditioning coach, probably their 3rd OC in 3 years, and possibly a new DC as well.

I don’t care how good the materials are that you use to build a house (recruiting) if the foundation (coaching & player development) are unstable. The house will fall.

Very well said. All the sheep from the moron mob that pushed for Freeman need to read this. Recruiting means nothing if it isn't the right head coach to lead your program. Freeman was barely a defensive coordinator.

 

[4-4-3]

4-4-3. It’s just an idea. I don’t think they would actually get someone to help like that. But firing him I think would be a bad move. By hiring MF , they took a big gamble. So now the results haven’t been great. In fact you good say the results are below what they should be. If he is going to be here for the next few years , he needs to look at himself and see where he needs to improve. As you’ve said many times, ND isn’t the place to learn on the job. But that is where they are . Not much anyone can do. Gotta ride it out and hope the light goes on.

Understood.

A couple of points.

While I wasn't in favor of hiring him, I'm not for firing him short of, say, a meltdown season, but even then, I CAN'T SEE THEM DOING IT. Nor would I CLAMOR FOR IT, preferring simply to let it play out from there.

I actually think he's doing better than what PEOPLE LIKE ME expected. Holtz and Kelly didn't have great records after two years. Davie's was actually better than both of theirs. So were Brennan's and Weis's. So, that THIRD YEAR ALMOST ALWAYS tells the tale.

As it stands -- and let's take the likely worse outcome -- if he goes 9-4 again, his winning percentage is still 69%. And given that, there's no way ND would fire a coach after two years who's won almost 70% of his games.

I don't like to speculate as the future MAKES FOOLS OF US ALL, but there's a chance Freeman will neither "FAIL" nor "SUCCEED" but instead turn into ND's version of Earle Bruce -- HE OF THE 7 CONSECUTIVE 3 LOSS SEASONS at OSU.

Freeman looks to me like he could be "GOOD ENOUGH" but NOT GREAT. Which raises the question as to how long ND would settle for that.

I'VE NO IDEA.

 

[4-4-3]

The dilemma is Freeman, just like Gerry Faust is the perfect ND coach 9 months out of year. You have confirmed ND haters in the media rooting for Marcus Freeman to have success and by proxy rooting for ND football to win games.

The problem is the 3 months where Freeman is not the perfect coach? Happen to be Sept, Oct and Nov. I’ve seen all 4 inexperienced Head Coach’s and it’s been the same story.

Just when you think they have it figured out. Something else breaks. Last year ND played well on the road. The games they lost at OSU & USC were to Top 10 teams. ND played well. But they had 2 humiliating losses at home to bad teams. So we have to fix the home field.

This year ND fixes the home field. The game they lost, they still played great. But, unlike last year, they have stunk in the road. They played like crap at Louisville, Clemson and Duke. So now we have to fix the road for next season.

On top of that Texas A&M is 9 months away and ND will be breaking in a new starting QB, new Strength & Conditioning coach, probably their 3rd OC in 3 years, and possibly a new DC as well.

I don’t care how good the materials are that you use to build a house (recruiting) if the foundation (coaching & player development) are unstable. The house will fall.

GREAT POST!

The REALISTS on this board need to keep BANGING AWAY at these themes.

As for MY two cents?

Beneath that foundation, YOU NEED A BEDROCK, ALL-IN ADMIN.

 

[tkirish]

Understood.

A couple of points.

While I wasn't in favor of hiring him, I'm not for firing him short of, say, a meltdown season, but even then, I CAN'T SEE THEM DOING IT. Nor would I CLAMOR FOR IT, preferring simply to let it play out from there.

I actually think he's doing better than what PEOPLE LIKE ME expected. Holtz and Kelly didn't have great records after two years. Davie's was actually better than both of theirs. So were Brennan's and Weis's. So, that THIRD YEAR ALMOST ALWAYS tells the tale.

As it stands -- and let's take the likely worse outcome -- if he goes 9-4 again, his winning percentage is still 69%. And given that, there's no way ND would fire a coach after two years who's won almost 70% of his games.

I don't like to speculate as the future MAKES FOOLS OF US ALL, but there's a chance Freeman will neither "FAIL" nor "SUCCEED" but instead turn into ND's version of Earle Bruce -- HE OF THE 7 CONSECUTIVE 3 LOSS SEASONS at OSU.

Freeman looks to me like he could be "GOOD ENOUGH" but NOT GREAT. Which raises the question as to how long ND would settle for that.

I'VE NO IDEA.

Yup. I agree with all of that. It really is the “ great unknown “ because we have no history of MF to base anything on. Other than the history of first time coaches. Which definitely doesn’t favor him. But there are always exceptions to to rule. I will hold out hope he is closer to Holtz at some point rather than Davie. At this juncture “ hoping” is a good intangible to hang your hat on. 😎

 

[chaseball]

All you listed still obfuscates and evades the point about recruiting impediments due to academic standards.

I also think you're reading the data wrong, if what you say is even true, in correlating past ND success to budgets. The stronger correlation is that ND allowed lots of academic accommodation. Not since Holtz.

Saban and Meyer won't come to ND because of mainly an inability to get their recruits. ND could possibly get lucky in getting a coach like Harbaugh, who's obviously there because he happens to be a Michigan man...but even he hasn't crack a NC because the Wolverines still can't get the players that Alabama and Georgia can.

I wasn't making the point that bigger recruiting budgets lead to bigger success, that should just be intuitively obvious. My point was that if ND could have the number 1 recruiting budget in the past, they are capable of allocating the kinds of resources needed to be at the top in the present.

Also, as to the last point you made in your post, until I see some kind of data to back it up, i'm done buying the PR spin machine at ND. Where is the proof that NDs academic restrictions is limiting their player pool on the recruiting trail? They are offering just as many of the top 100 players as their competition is they are just doing an ineffectual job selling the program (getting their butts kicked on the recruiting trail) and most of all failing miserably to build the culture needed to resonate with and ultimately attract 17-22 year olds en masse. And the reasons for this are many and go all the way up to the highest levels of the food chain at Notre Dame.

I think MF tried to put ND back on the map with the top prospects in the game again, and just did not get that extra support needed from ND brass to stay competitive with their peers and seal the deal. Since that recruiting collapse in the 23 class, we haven't heard a whisper of hype about our recruiting from Marcus Freeman or any of the media people covering Notre Dame.

Now Marcus Freeman has resorted back to the Brian Kelly era style of recruiting, where it's jump on 3 and 4 star guys and secure their commitment early, and not fight for the 5 star/top 100 guys all the way down to the wire. But we've been following this approach for at least the latter half of the BK era and despite some highlights have achieved nothing of note with this approach.

The good news is that I think an A-list coach would be able to advocate more effectively for the football program, be better able to get the resources and support he needs from the dinosaurs at ND, and naturally attract the top talent to ND and blow right through a lot of the stale culture that has hindered the football program in this regard, for the last 1.5 decades.

If Urban Meyer signed at ND, he brings with him his cache. He would instantly make ND relevant to the 5 & 4 star class of prospects again. Meyer has won on the recruiting trail and on the football field at the highest levels everywhere he's been in college football. That would not change at ND even under the strictest of NDs anti-football policies over the last 25 years.

 

[4-4-3]

Yup. I agree with all of that. It really is the “ great unknown “ because we have no history of MF to base anything on. Other than the history of first time coaches. Which definitely doesn’t favor him. But there are always exceptions to to rule. I will hold out hope he is closer to Holtz at some point rather than Davie. At this juncture “ hoping” is a good intangible to hang your hat on. 😎

Given what I've seen, I can't really opt much for HOPE, but then I'm not much of a HOPER. If hope is in the equation, I already DON'T LIKE THE ODDS.

So, in my case, it's merely a question of BEING SURPRISED OR NOT by either something I OVERLOOKED or that wasn't a factor AT THE TIME.

My other reason for this is, as I've written many times, I see ND's probelms as VOLUNTARILY STRUCTURAL. This CAKE AND EAT IT approach that hasn't worked for 30 years, well . . . IT HASN'T WORKED FOR 30 YEARS.

So, to me, it doesn't matter past a certain point who you PLUG IN. That person isn't going to be TRANSFORMATIONAL if he doesn't have the LATITUDE to develop the same FIREPOWER as recent NC winners.

 

[tkirish]

Given what I've seen, I can't really opt much for HOPE, but then I'm not much of a HOPER. If hope is in the equation, I already DON'T LIKE THE ODDS.

So, in my case, it's merely a question of BEING SURPRISED OR NOT by either something I OVERLOOKED or that wasn't a factor AT THE TIME.

My other reason for this is, as I've written many times, I see ND's probelms as VOLUNTARILY STRUCTURAL. This CAKE AND EAT IT approach that hasn't worked for 30 years, well . . . IT HASN'T WORKED FOR 30 YEARS.

So, to me, it doesn't matter past a certain point who you PLUG IN. That person isn't going to be TRANSFORMATIONAL if he doesn't have the LATITUDE to develop the same FIREPOWER as recent NC winners.

Definitely agree with all that. Maybe the new AD will do just enough to make changes without compromising the student - athlete part that the school preaches about. I guess we just have to see how it unfolds. Good back and forth on this. I like that. 😎

 

[4-4-3]

I am not convinced ND can get an elite coach. They haven't since Holtz. This discussion keeps recurring with many but 1 major recurring factor: an elite coach doesn't believe they can get the necessary players to credibly challenge for a NC.

As I boringly keep posting, I'm stuck in the 70s and 80s mindset when ND was THE TEAM. I hope and pray each season to see this again, as 1988 indeed is an even more distant time. Cheering for ND is in my DNA!

🙂

My heart says ND might get an elite coach? But my head knows the old days are gone and it just won't happen given self imposed academic restrictions. The greatest proof is EXACTLY the distance between now and 1988 and the coaches since Holtz.

All things being equal, players are the biggest factor. Elite coaches know they will compete against other elite coaches and programs...and need assurance they can get elite players in depth. It's that's simple, above Xs and Os.

Why many can't process WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN HERE makes me wonder if THIS BOARD doesn't include beings from TWO DIFFERENT EARTHS.

If this were a COURT OF LAW, you've just made your case and produced THIRTY YEARS OF EVIDENCE. And yet, many still believe -- AND IN SPITE OF THE EVIDENCE -- that, SOMEHOW, tomorrow will be DIFFERENT. We call that MAGICAL THINKING -- though I've also heard it called LOYALTY, CAN-DO-SPIRIT or BEING-A-FAN.

Here's MORE EVIDENCE.

Brian Kelly -- not a poor man as ND's coach -- yes, TAKES THE MONEY and bolts to LSU. Sure, any amount of money WILL TALK.

But then there's Brian Kelly, the professional, in search of VINDICATING SATISFACTION. And THAT BRIAN KELLY goes to LSU because HE KNOWS HE'LL GET THE PLAYERS who can give him a better chance of winning an NC, given how well he's done at ND at times despite his having to wear CUSTOM-MADE ND ANKLE WEIGHTS.

The LOGIC BEHIND what we'll call HIS MOTIVE?

THREE NC'S AT LSU since 2003.

ZERO AT ND since 1988.

It's basic ARITHMETIC.

 

[banmate6]

Why many can't process WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN HERE makes me wonder if THIS BOARD doesn't include beings from TWO DIFFERENT EARTHS.

If this were a COURT OF LAW, you've just made your case and produced THIRTY YEARS OF EVIDENCE. And yet, many still believe -- AND IN SPITE OF THE EVIDENCE -- that, SOMEHOW, tomorrow will be DIFFERENT. We call that MAGICAL THINKING -- though I've also heard it called LOYALTY, CAN-DO-SPIRIT or BEING-A-FAN.

Here's MORE EVIDENCE.

Brian Kelly -- not a poor man as ND's coach -- yes, TAKES THE MONEY and bolts to LSU. Sure, any amount of money WILL TALK.

But then there's Brian Kelly, the professional, in search of VINDICATING SATISFACTION. And THAT BRIAN KELLY goes to LSU because HE KNOWS HE'LL GET THE PLAYERS who can give him a better chance of winning an NC, given how well he's done at ND at times despite his having to wear CUSTOM-MADE ND ANKLE WEIGHTS.

The LOGIC BEHIND what we'll call HIS MOTIVE?

THREE NC'S AT LSU since 2003.

ZERO AT ND since 1988.

It's basic ARITHMETIC.

Yet here I have @chaseball contesting all these points. He still insists ND doesn't have significant restrictions and can indeed recruit with the best of them. Ignoring the main data points, evident in NCs, Heisman winners, elite coaches making their choices, and NFL production at skill positions...all outcomes!

Mind you, I bet if I studied top 10 recruiting classes since Holtz, ND wouldn't rank as high as the factories, like Chaseball claims. BTW: I'm having had a tough time finding such data. Regardless, coaches have said they can't get the talent, starting with Holtz himself towards the end of his tenure. I recall him saying he can't get the talent he needs, hinting at rising academic standards. Some spoke of Meyer not coming to ND and you made a great point about Brian Kelly moving on to LSU in this context.

I've also talked with ex college football players. I live in the Bay Area. Stanford graduates tell me the same thing about the Cardinal: there are no easy degrees and you have to fully matriculated. That limits who you can recruit.

1988. So long ago. No way could it be that ND and every coach went off a cliff on recruiting. I know what ND I saw in the 70s and 80s...Jesus were some of those teams stacked at times. We've seen nothing similar since Holtz.

 

[chaseball]

Yet here I have @chaseball contesting all these points. He still insists ND doesn't have significant restrictions and can indeed recruit with the best of them. Ignoring the main data points, evident in NCs, Heisman winners, elite coaches making their choices, and NFL production at skill positions...all outcomes!

Mind you, I bet if I studied top 10 recruiting classes since Holtz, ND wouldn't rank as high as the factories, like Chaseball claims. BTW: I'm having had a tough time finding such data. Regardless, coaches have said they can't get the talent, starting with Holtz himself towards the end of his tenure. I recall him saying he can't get the talent he needs, hinting at rising academic standards. Some spoke of Meyer not coming to ND and you made a great point about Brian Kelly moving on to LSU in this context.

I've also talked with ex college football players. I live in the Bay Area. Stanford graduates tell me the same thing about the Cardinal: there are no easy degrees and you have to fully matriculated. That limits who you can recruit.

1988. So long ago. No way could it be that ND and every coach went off a cliff on recruiting. I know what ND I saw in the 70s and 80s...Jesus were some of those teams stacked at times. We've seen nothing similar since Holtz.

So Charlie Weis didn't secure three top five classes in a row here from 2006-2008? He didn't recruit the number 1 player in the country here in 2007? Back when ND had even more/greater archaic academic restrictions?

We've had two coaches here since CW: A first time head coach who has never been in charge of a recruiting cycle before and Brian Kelly who is infamous for being a ho-hum recruiter who has since taken his mediocre recruiting-ways to LSU

Notre Dame has historically attracted the best players in the country in every era. They generate more money from football than anybody else except for like two other programs and sells out stadiums and tops TV ratings while offering one the best combination of academics and football in the entire country. Nobody else in the country does that. There's no excuse for ND to not be topping the recruiting rankings. It's just a lack of vision, ambition , and effectiveness at the highest levels at ND and ND is simply getting beat by its competition in recruiting due their own mediocrity in selling the program

You get a coach in here who has recruited at the highest levels and has a track record developing that talent into national championship contention or some successful NFL coach with cache/status and the recruits will come back. You get the best coach by investing in the football program and all that takes is a financial commitment to football we haven't seen in the Jenkins and Swarbrick era.

 

[Golson5]

So Charlie Weis didn't secure three top five classes in a row here from 2006-2008? He didn't recruit the number 1 player in the country here in 2007? Back when ND had even more/greater archaic academic restrictions?

We've had two coaches here since CW: A first time head coach who has never been in charge of a recruiting cycle before and Brian Kelly who is infamous for being a ho-hum recruiter who has since taken his mediocre recruiting-ways to LSU

Notre Dame has historically attracted the best players in the country in every era. They generate more money from football than anybody else except for like two other programs and sells out stadiums and tops TV ratings while offering one the best combination of academics and football in the entire country. Nobody else in the country does that. There's no excuse for ND to not be topping the recruiting rankings. It's just a lack of vision, ambition , and effectiveness at the highest levels at ND and ND is simply getting beat by its competition in recruiting due their own mediocrity in selling the program

You get a coach in here who has recruited at the highest levels and has a track record developing that talent into national championship contention or some successful NFL coach with cache/status and the recruits will come back. You get the best coach by investing in the football program and all that takes is a financial commitment to football we haven't seen in the Jenkins and Swarbrick era.

They were fake top 3 classes. Scouting wasn't as good and ND used to get the benefit of the doubt for clicks

 

[FightingIrish44]

They were fake top 3 classes. Scouting wasn't as good and ND used to get the benefit of the doubt for clicks

Multiple sites have ND between 2-4. Alabama had 9 more recruits than ND and was #1 on a couple of sites.

 

[4-4-3]

So Charlie Weis didn't secure three top five classes in a row here from 2006-2008? He didn't recruit the number 1 player in the country here in 2007? Back when ND had even more/greater archaic academic restrictions?

We've had two coaches here since CW: A first time head coach who has never been in charge of a recruiting cycle before and Brian Kelly who is infamous for being a ho-hum recruiter who has since taken his mediocre recruiting-ways to LSU

Notre Dame has historically attracted the best players in the country in every era. They generate more money from football than anybody else except for like two other programs and sells out stadiums and tops TV ratings while offering one the best combination of academics and football in the entire country. Nobody else in the country does that. There's no excuse for ND to not be topping the recruiting rankings. It's just a lack of vision, ambition , and effectiveness at the highest levels at ND and ND is simply getting beat by its competition in recruiting due their own mediocrity in selling the program

You get a coach in here who has recruited at the highest levels and has a track record developing that talent i national championship contention or some successful NFL coach with cache/status and the recruits will come back. You get the best coach by investing in the football program and all that takes is a financial commitment to football we haven't seen in the Jenkins and Swarbrick era.

And who might that coach BE?

Is there anyone WITH HOLTZ'S TALENT you're aware of who wants the job even HALF AS MUCH as he did?

And why didn't that BRILLIANT, CAN-DO person emerge earlier?

You truly think that the HEAD COACHING JOB at ND is the CFB job TO DIE FOR?

There's ZERO EVIDENCE of that. I mean, is it ever even discussed in the MEDIA?

If there's evidence you're aware of, PLEASE SHARE IT.

Where were Meyer and Stoops and all of the other prominent names that always got floated? And where are their EQUIVALENTS NOW?

Honestly, I think MORE coaches have said DEFINITIVELY that they're NOT interested in coaching at ND than have ever said, YES, CAN'T WAIT!

And as I'm sure you realize, I'm not defending the Freeman hire here. A better, more experienced coach? Yes. THAT SPECIAL UNKNOWN SOMEONE WHO WILL TURN DROSS TO GOLDEN MINI-DOMES -- AND WHO'S DYING TO COME TO ND?

Hate to say it, but I DON'T THINK HE'S OUT THERE.

 

[Get Nasty]

Hartman is not playing as well as I expected he would. Most of this I believe is due to Parker, some of it wr injuries, and some Hartman not handling this well in games.

The fact we’re doing a slow check with me to only run into a loaded box over and over, never pa, and almost never throw on first down until we have to is insane.

We have wr issues, but we amazing rbs and until Evans went down deep te room. We’re trying to throw jump balls to players that can’t win when we have faison on the sideline and 2 of estime love price always on the sideline. So at all times we have 3 of our top 4 or 5 offensive skill players on the sideline. Moronic

 

[Terry Jillery]

Freeman was given a job for which he did not earn. This is playing out exactly as the free market intends it to. In life, you work and earn things. If not, you lose. I expect more big losses and disappointment.

 

[Golson5]

Hartman is not playing as well as I expected he would. Most of this I believe is due to Parker, some of it wr injuries, and some Hartman not handling this well in games.

The fact we’re doing a slow check with me to only run into a loaded box over and over, never pa, and almost never throw on first down until we have to is insane.

We have wr issues, but we amazing rbs and until Evans went down deep te room. We’re trying to throw jump balls to players that can’t win when we have faison on the sideline and 2 of estime love price always on the sideline. So at all times we have 3 of our top 4 or 5 offensive skill players on the sideline. Moronic

I haven't seen one jump ball all year

 

[4-4-3]

Freeman was given a job for which he did not earn. This is playing out exactly as the free market intends it to. In life, you work and earn things. If not, you lose. I expect more big losses and disappointment.

He's in a job he's NOT QUALIFIED FOR. It happens all the time in life, and as you imply, many are WEEDED OUT as events transpire.

To me, he was the path of LEAST RESISTANCE. A HEADACHE PILL that relieves SYMPTOMATIC PAIN but that doesn't address the REASON for the pain. But ND apparently didn't want to lock horns with all of the STURM, DRANG and DRAMA required to find someone QUALIFIED.

(Who, BY THE WAY, MIGHTN'T WORK OUT EITHER given ND's unique DEMANDS AND CIRCUMSTANCES.)

Instead, it went with the MAGIC PILL PAIN KILLER as advertised by members of the team, the media and all of the members of all of the NICE GUY CLUBS the world over. In other words, this was ND and a good portion of its supporters sending itself a VALENTINE'S CARD.

I mean, FREEMAN FITS AT ND EXACTLY THE WAY TERRY BRENNAN DID in the 50's. It's the same script -MERELY UPDATED.

And I agree, there WILL be MORE DISAPPOINTMENTS.

THE GUY IS LEARNING ON THE JOB -- oh, and that can take MORE TIME than he may get, assuming he's even CLEVER ENOUGH -- AND AT ND AND AT $6.2 MILLION PER ANNUM.

WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

 

[deadirishpoet]

BK inherited a program that was a laughingstock with people literally making fat and snot jokes about Charlie Weiss. That’s where we were at.

MF inherited a program lost six times in five years.

Far from the truth

 

[deadirishpoet]

And you can argue than BK inherited a more talented team

There is no argument

 

[chaseball]

There's no evidence that ND can't land the top coaches in the sport. They've only really had a public opening twice in the last 1.5 decades, and they insist they got the guy they wanted in both instances. We can debate on the efficacy of those hiring decisions and extensions for sure, but that doesn't mean the HC job at ND is any less desirable.

ND has two things that attract top professionals in every field: 1. the ability to write more zeros on paychecks than all but a few other programs, and 2. more eyeballs, attention, and status than all but a few other programs. They also have a roster with the 11th most talent in the country that would provide any coach with a nice foundation to build upon.

The only thing stopping ND from bringing in a HC on the level of say an Urban Meyer right now, is ND itself. Not some insurmountable external force that can't be overcome.

 

[deadirishpoet]

Good points.

Thing is, ND is NOT A TIER ONE PROGRAM. Can't seem to make it to the next level. These days, no ACADEMIC MINDED SCHOOL can. It's a bridge too far.

There are plenty of smart CFB players everywhere, but you also have to able to sign the academically-averse or in some cases DOWNRIGHT KNUCKLEHEADED, something ND and other academic schools won't do.

And there's NO ND MAGIC wherein it can have it BOTH WAYS.

And yet this remains an enduring ND fan FANTASY.

And, yes, at ND FAN often stands not for FANATIC but FANTASIST.

I feel bad for you waking every morning knowing ND is not going to meet your expectations, or at least that's the way your post reads to me.
I'm sure there's universities out there that do meet your expectations, but thanks for the drive by and poke in the eye

 

[deadirishpoet]

There's no evidence that ND can't land the top coaches in the sport. They've only really had a public opening twice in the last 1.5 decades, and they insist they got the guy they wanted in both instances. We can debate on the efficacy of those hiring decisions for sure, but that doesn't mean the HC job at ND is any less desirable.

ND has two things that attract top professionals in every field: 1. the ability to write more zeros on paychecks than all but a few other programs, and 2. more eyeballs, attention, and status than all but a few other programs. They also have a roster with the 11th most talent in the country that would provide any coach with a nice foundation to build upon.

The only thing stopping ND from bringing in a HC on the level of say an Urban Meyer right now, is ND itself. Not some insurmountable external force that can't be overcome.

By "say Urban Meyer " you don't mean him in particular?
That cat burned his bridge. Not so much by meeting with ND, but already agreeing to be the coach at UF(though ND was his dream job wink wink), and now the crap he talks though he left UF and tOSU with mud on his hands

 

[Pennick4]

Just throw more $ at the problem. It has always worked so well for our Government! 🤣🤣

 

[sjb75]

Charlie Weis went 19-6 with Ty Willighams recruits, and then proceeded to go 16-21 with his own recruits.

So, if he allegedly left a great roster behind loaded with talent, he must have been one seriously awful football coach?

But, if Charlie Weis was one seriously awful football coach. How did he win 19 of his first 23 games? Which was something that Devine, Holtz, Davie, Ty, BK and Freeman were unable to do.

LMAO.

Ty Willingham's abysmal recruiting in 2004 and 2005 is what ruined Charlie Weis's 2007 season.

 

[notredamerises23]

Far from the truth

What’s not true about this? People were making jokes about Charlie Weiss. People made jokes about his arrogant statement about“schematic advantage.” The defense was an absolute mess the last year that he coached. We had games in which we were getting blown out and couldn’t even get a first down through three quarters. The program was a mess.

Meanwhile, Freeman has inheritEd a program that lost six times in the last five years.

 

[IrishExpert2288]

The program Brian Kelly inherited lost 6 games in one year and was on a 4 game losing streak.

The program Marcus Freeman inherited lost 6 games in 4 years and was on a 7 game winning streak.

This a a ridiculous comparison.

 

[FightingIrish44]

What’s not true about this? People were making jokes about Charlie Weiss. People made jokes about his arrogant statement about“schematic advantage.” The defense was an absolute mess the last year that he coached. We had games in which we were getting blown out and couldn’t even get a first down through three quarters. The program was a mess.

Meanwhile, Freeman has inherit a program that lost six times in the last five years.

Charlie Weis is actually my favorite coach since I’ve been following, but it is maddening that the 2009 team only went 6-6. Clausen, Floyd, Tate, Rudolph (though I think he missed a lot of the season), Sam Young played 10 years in the NFL I think. Allen and Hughes were pretty good too.

Too bad the OL and defense struggled. If they were serviceable they could have gone 12-0. Weis was a much better recruiter than Kelly and loved the university. A shame that it didn’t work out.

 

[4-4-3]

I feel bad for you waking every morning knowing ND is not going to meet your expectations, or at least that's the way your post reads to me.
I'm sure there's universities out there that do meet your expectations, but thanks for the drive by and poke in the eye

I appreciate the SENTIMENT, but you shouldn't feel bad as it's the HOPIUM USERS and KOOL AID BRIGADE that are getting SKEWERED year in and year out. They're the ones dying on a cross with the sign at the top that says "ND: 12-0."

I don't approach this as a BLINDLY LOYAL PARTISAN but more as a STUDENT and sometimes ANALYST. What I'm studying is whether or not ND CAN ACTUALLY SOLVE ITS PROBLEM.

Based on the EVIDENCE OF A LIFETIME, I don't think it can unless it chooses a RADICALLY DIFFERENT PATH. This is NOT about TWEAKING. It's about REINVENTION.

So, based on WHAT I SEE, I offer my view as to what CONTINUES TO BE WRONG. What I'm learning is that DESPITE years of DATA and FACTUAL BACKUP to the contrary, many here still think there is some kind of MAGIC WAND solution. As I suggested, THOSE are the people you should direct your sympathy towards.

As for me, watching ND PREDICTABLY fail to clear that CRITICAL FIRST-TIER BAR -- and for 35 years now -- merely reinforces my analysis, even as I get to study an almost NEVER-ENDING PROCESSION of FUTILE PSEUDO-STRATEGIES meant to place a SQUARE PEG in a ROUND HOLE.

Thing is, I grew up watching GREAT ND TEAMS and what ND has had since Holtz -- even at Kelly's best -- DOES NOT CUT THE MUSTARD. Simple. I grew up watching DOMINATING ND football. And was still watching it under Holtz in my 40's. Luckily, I had THAT EXPERIENCE which today's ND teams can't WATER DOWN.

So, basically, I'M SET and no one you should feel sorry for. I HAD MY ND MOMENTS.

But if my calling it like I SEE IT disturbs you to the point of making you feel like you've been shot at from a moving car or had your eye poked, there isn't much I can do about it as none of my ND criticisms WILL EVER -- OR HAVE EVER BEEN -- directed at YOU. So, this is your issue, not mine.

Plus, there's always the IGNORE button.

No one has to BLEED.

 

[FightingIrish44]

I appreciate the SENTIMENT, but you shouldn't feel bad as it's the HOPIUM USERS and KOOL AID BRIGADE that are getting SKEWERED year in and year out. They're the ones dying on a cross with the sign at the top that says "ND: 12-0."

I don't approach this as a BLINDLY LOYAL PARTISAN but more as a STUDENT and sometimes ANALYST. What I'm studying is whether or not ND CAN ACTUALLY SOLVE ITS PROBLEM.

Based on the EVIDENCE OF A LIFETIME, I don't think it can unless it chooses a RADICALLY DIFFERENT PATH. This is NOT about TWEAKING. It's about REINVENTION.

So, based on WHAT I SEE, I offer my view as to what CONTINUES TO BE WRONG. What I'm learning is that DESPITE years of DATA and FACTUAL BACKUP to the contrary, many here still think there is some kind of MAGIC WAND solution. As I suggested, THOSE are the people you should direct your sympathy towards.

As for me, watching ND PREDICTABLY fail to clear that CRITICAL FIRST-TIER BAR -- and for 35 years now -- merely reinforces my analysis, even as I get to study an almost NEVER-ENDING PROCESSION of FUTILE PSEUDO-STRATEGIES meant to place a SQUARE PEG in a ROUND HOLE.

Thing is, I grew up watching GREAT ND TEAMS and what ND has had since Holtz -- even at Kelly's best -- DOES NOT CUT THE MUSTARD. Simple. I grew up watching DOMINATING ND football. And was still watching it under Holtz in my 40's. Luckily, I had THAT EXPERIENCE which today's ND teams can't WATER DOWN.

So, basically, I'M SET and no one you should feel sorry for. I HAD MY ND MOMENTS.

But if my calling it like I SEE IT disturbs you to the point of making you feel like you've been shot at from a moving car or had your eye poked, there isn't much I can do about it as none of my ND criticisms WILL EVER -- OR HAVE EVER BEEN -- directed at YOU. So, this is your issue, not mine.

And there's always the IGNORE button.

No one has to BLEED.

You’re just a realist. Nothing wrong with that. I thought 10-2 was the realistic ceiling this year. 9-3 was sort of my ceiling going into 2022 immediately after the Okie State bowl game.

It seems the people that thought ND was going 12-0 are the ones most upset by being 7-3 and want Parker fired. 12-0 was possible but very unlikely. 10-3 will show improvement and be a step in the right direction. Good for recruiting although not a “great” season. A “good” season by my definition.

 

[sjb75]

You’re just a realist. Nothing wrong with that. I thought 10-2 was the realistic ceiling this year. 9-3 was sort of my ceiling going into 2022 immediately after the Okie State bowl game.

It seems the people that thought ND was going 12-0 are the ones most upset by being 7-3 and want Parker fired. 12-0 was possible but very unlikely. 10-3 will show improvement and be a step in the right direction. Good for recruiting although not a “great” season. A “good” season by my definition.

The fact that you read that,, bless your patience.

 

[sjb75]

Charlie Weis is actually my favorite coach since I’ve been following, but it is maddening that the 2009 team only went 6-6. Clausen, Floyd, Tate, Rudolph (though I think he missed a lot of the season), Sam Young played 10 years in the NFL I think. Allen and Hughes were pretty good too.

Too bad the OL and defense struggled. If they were serviceable they could have gone 12-0. Weis was a much better recruiter than Kelly and loved the university. A shame that it didn’t work out.

Charlie Weis was a crappy head coach.

 

[FightingIrish44]

The fact that you read that,, bless your patience.

Were you able to take an Advil? Lol

 

[sjb75]

Were you able to take an Advil? Lol

I have not read anything from that poster for quite some time.