Both of those wins were against teams that ended up being frauds
16-8 as HC, … we had 8 or 9 losses in 5 years before him…. move on
Too big a stage for Freeman & Co
- Thread starter edub72
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16-8 as HC, … we had 8 or 9 losses in 5 years before him…. move on
BK lost 10 his first two years. 8-5 and 8-5. He also had his next 2 years vacated and the year after that posted yet another 8-5 record. In his 6th year he notched a 3 loss season. Probably the same as MF will notch this year.
He followed up his first 3 loss season with a 4-8 season followed by a 9-3 again.
I think MF gets some time.
BK inherited a program that was a laughingstock with people literally making fat and snot jokes about Charlie Weiss. That’s where we were at.
MF inherited a program lost six times in five years.
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Wrong. We lost ten times in the last five years of Kelly and never won a high profile game and we usually weren’t competitive in those games.
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And i think Marcus Freeman inherited a much better situation than BK.
Freeman inherited a much better program than Kelly from Weiss.
The starting talent Kelly inherited from Weiss was arguably better but the depth was weak. The roster Kelly received from Weiss was thin once you got beyond starters. Kelly really really rebuilt a solid 2 to 3 deep in the overall roster. Kelly established a winning culture in the program where it had languished under Weiss and all previous coaches following Holtz. That was no small feat by Kelly. He succeeded in prevailing with the AD and ND admin to make many critical long overdue structural changes [ facilities, nutrition etc etc....
Which brought the ND football program into some form of competitive parity in off field program structure with the top programs.
ND under Kelly won 10 + games each of the last 4 yrs of his tenure.
2 CFP appearances in 2018 and 2020
I don't think it's a close call to say Freeman inherited a much better overall situation in re the overall program from which to succeed compared to the dumpster fire Kelly walked into. Inspite of the qb and wr rooms Kelly left Freeman.
For the record I don't like Brian Kelly and think he's a SOB and am glad he's gone. But he did a lot of very good things for the program
He inherited the number 10 and number 2 recruting classes from Weis. Cant say the same for MF.
MF got ahold of an empty QB room and WR room. I don’t really see an uneven compare here. BK played 2 ranked teams y1, lost both. Second year 1/1 against ranked teams.
MF played 6 ranked teams year 1 and 4 Y2. He is 6-4 in those matchups. He also played 4 top 10 teams in that run and is 2-2. BK never played a top 10 in the first 2.
BK also had a ton of experience and this is MF first 2 seasons. Seems to be ahead of schedule based on stats.
I don't see any difference in going 8-4 vs going 10-2 when you are completely outclassed vs the top teams in the country every year regardless.
If you are not competitive amongst the first tier of teams for playoff wins, national title wins, etc. it doesn't matter what your regular season win percentage is.
Which is why running a college football program in the year 2023 is ALL ABOUT *UPSIDE* (only 4 teams compete for the only 3 bowl games that matter at the end of the year)
And ironically ND has none of it. No upside whatsoever.
ND should be taking MAJOR risks on THE VERY BEST TALENT, the HIGHEST END COACHES, going FULL BORE for the nations best prospects on the recruiting trail, fronting millions of dollars in NIL guarantees and coaching contracts for the creme dela creme, etc. etc. etc.
Instead ND is happy to produce 9 or 10 wins ad naseum by taking no risks, watering down an increasingly more mediocre schedule, and recruiting mostly 3 & 4 star players, going cheap on coaching staff by doing internal promotions instead of bidding for the biggest name coaches on the market, etc. etc. etc.
The whole program is just watered down generic average blah. The entire way the program is being managed at the highest levels (the jack swarbrick level, the father jenkins level) is just complete and utter naivety and incompetence. There has been ZERO vision and zero ambition at this level of the institution in multiple decades now.
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Good points, but regarding your last one -- SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THEY CAN WIN A TITLE AT ND -- who would THAT be?
And does someone like that EVEN EXIST, given the IMMENSELY TALL ORDER that accomplishing that would entail?
And even if someone DOES EXIST WHO BELIEVES THAT, should that person necessarily be viewed as a REALIST?
I'd first like to see their ACTION PLAN.
But you know who was a REALIST? URBAN MEYER. NC'S AT TWO DIFFERENT SCHOOLS.
MEYER TO ND: THANKS, BUT NO THANKS.
THIRD WINNINGEST COACH BY PERCENTAGE, ALL-TIME, DIDN'T BELIEVE HE COULD WIN AN NC AT ND.
TO ME, THAT SAYS A LOT.
Good points.
Thing is, ND is NOT A TIER ONE PROGRAM. Can't seem to make it to the next level. These days, no ACADEMIC MINDED SCHOOL can. It's a bridge too far.
There are plenty of smart CFB players everywhere, but you also have to able to sign the academically-averse or in some cases DOWNRIGHT KNUCKLEHEADED, something ND and other academic schools won't do.
And there's NO ND MAGIC wherein it can have it BOTH WAYS.
And yet this remains an enduring ND fan FANTASY.
And, yes, at ND FAN often stands not for FANATIC but FANTASIST.
Agree. I will say that Urban probably also passed because of the bare 2004-2005 recruiting classes and not just all of the other things coaching at ND entails.
As far as believing a title can be won at ND, if you’re a coach, you realize what the odds are but you still are trying to compete for the title regardless of odds. Recruit better. Coach better.
Kelly proved he didn’t believe he could win a title by leaving (unless the money was the prime motivating factor — also age — its undeniably easier at LSU).
watched the game on TV and agree with your at game observations. Zeke was absolutely destroyed on several plays. He’s always looked and played smaller than his listed weight imo. I pray he is not asked back for next season.
I’ve been critical of Fisher all season, and felt he should be playing guard, not tackle. I do Think we get really uneven effort from Fisher, but most of the time I think he is just not nimble enough to play tackle.
Hartman looked terrible yesterday. Really poor decision on the pick six, and repeated the same on another incompletion that could easily have been a pick six. He looked so damn indecisive all game, and absolutely missed having Evans. In his defense, the running backs whiffed on blocks that led to at least two sacks. And yet here again, the receivers got little to no separation, and the defensive backs played them tight because they don’t fear getting burned down field.
The defenses got gashed in large part because we resorted to poor arm tackling once again. But take away the fumbled punt and pick six and holding Clemson to 20 points would have been a good showing.
We’re really suffering from having a head coach and offensive coordinator learning on the job. I love having a Dominant run game, but not such a predictable game plan that chooses to pass out of necessity. Way too many 2nd and 8 scenarios yesterday, but Then again, our Passing game has become anemic and turnover prone. We seem to have an offensive mentality of running the football first and foremost, eating up the clock with running plays, passing only out of necessity, and playing not to lose by avoiding mistakes and risk. A fumbled punt and a pick six make it damn near impossible to win with this approach.
Yes, the timing would have been poor for anyone, let alone the uber-ambitious Meyer. But my sense is that he was also thinking beyond that as it was something he could FIX if ND agreed to it. But ND didn't when Meyer specifically asked how many FREEBEE recruits he could have. The answer he got back from ND was not what he felt he needed.
Regarding getting a coach who thinks he can win an NC at ND, it sounds that what you're saying is HE SETS THAT AS HIS GOAL AND JUST KEEPS ON TRYING. I get what you mean, but to me, that's not the same thing as someone who is REASONABLE yet who thinks, going in, he can ACTUALLY do it -- not by continually trying but because he thinks he has some kind of "SOLUTION."
But as I've been saying, I don't think there IS a SOLUTION OR "ANSWER" or any coach out there WHO THINKS THAT THERE IS. At least, no one who has PIPED UP. As for the type of INCREMENTAL PLUGGER you describe, ND already has that in Marcus Freeman. Let's see if either he or ND makes it to the next level.
Regarding Kelly's departure, I see it as both. Despite what many think, Kelly -- IN HIS WAY -- left it on the field at ND, putting together 4 top-5 caliber teams. That's not too far off Holtz and at least respectably IN REACH of Ara. But ND wouldn't bend for Kelly either. Once he saw he couldn't -- IN HIS ESTIMATION -- win an NC at ND and once another school offered him more money with FAR FEWER STRINGS, how COULDN'T he leave?
Who wouldn't want an EXIT PLAN like Kelly's?
And should Marcus Freeman do well but still miss grasping that ELUSIVE CIGAR, I'd be surprised if he didn't look for greener pastures and a Kelly-type exit as well.
That would be the one thing that would make me respect Kelly leaving — if he was asking for more freedom in recruiting and said “fine, forget you”. But he had to know what he was getting into when be signed on. He had a pretty darn good 2011 class including DL prospects.
I still think Kelly was too hands off on defense and it sounds like recruiting. Charlie Weis recruited his rear end off and signed the #2 class in 2008 as well as lots of numbers in 2006, then good, smaller classes in 2007 and 2009. That was with a media and college football nation that *hated* him. He did that through sheer effort and love of the university. I don’t believe Kelly did or had that.
Freeman is too inexperienced and hasn’t done enough to warrant some easier job coming along though maybe if he gets a couple more 10-3 seasons.
I just think Kelly wasn’t an elite coach. Even now. Look how much Jayden Daniels does with his feet to make him look good. Rather than looking at himself, he blames others. That 2021 season was probably more of a 9-3 caliber team though they probably should have gone 12-0. Bad OL play and that Cincinnati game had some key turnovers and unsound defense that Cincy’s coaches had scouted out. Unsound stuff. I really would have loved to get Freeman and Kelly’s take on just what the heck ND was doing with one particular scheme.
Sorry if my post is incoherent. I just think ND can win it all with better coaching. Kelly was a coach and not recruiter. Freeman seems the opposite but he’s young and can learn.
Your post ISN'T incoherent.
I don't think Kelly ever "LOVED" ND. He's too buttoned down for that. But I never doubted his commitment to WINNING.
My guess is that Kelly saw the ND job as an OPPORTUNITY. I also think he thought he could win it all at ND using THE SPREAD OFFENSE -- BRIAN KELLY EDITION (as it was NOTHING LIKE what Leach or Chip Kelly were doing). But he quickly learned otherwise in years one and two and began the process of modifying it -- which he could do as he had great backs and receivers and what looked like a PROMISING QB in Golson.
From there, it was trial and error and, despite 2016, on a STEADILY IMPROVING BASIS.
As for Kelly having Jayden Daniels, Holtz had Tim Brown plus Rocket, Watters and Bettis for one year in the SAME BACKFIELD. Not to mention his own Jayden Daniels -- Tony Rice.
The 2021 team's record seems RIGHT to me. ND's 1990 unit was an actual 9-3 team that definitely could have gone 12-0, but it isn't what happened.
I don't think about Kelly in realtion to Freeman. My view of Kelly is that he was taken FOR GRANTED and STILL IS. But he's GONE. My view of Freeman is that he STILL NETS OUT as more of a LIABILITY than an ASSET -- at least in terms of what ND PURPORTS TO WANT TO ACCOMPLISH. Unless that's simply HOT AIR -- which it VERY WELL COULD BE.
IN THEORY, Freeman could get better or worse or just settle into a 68% to 72% winning coach. Would ND tolerate that? Kelly's 74% was okay with ND despite being 3 percentage points behind Devine and Holtz. So, 72% in this new CFB environment would, IN MY OPINION, still fly.
But 68% may be a DIP too far, and anything below it unquestionably, given BRENNAN got the ROCKET at 64%.
But do I see a clear path ahead under Freeman to an NC?
NOT AT ALL, SO FAR.
Beat USC like they stole something in prime time, played the #1 team down to the wire albeit a huge coaching gaffe
Couldn't handle a 4-4 Clemson team on the road with not much upside of winning other than NY6 bowl on an 11AM kick because stage was too big
Got it
Couldn't handle a 4-4 Clemson team on the road with not much upside of winning other than NY6 bowl on an 11AM kick because stage was too big
Got it
Schedules are much easier these days (although 2023 is pretty tough) so that should be taken into account. 72% sounds really disappointing to me. That’s basically less that 9-3 with an occasional 10-3 season. Yikes. Kelly got by on 74% but his first 5 of 7 years were very mediocre. If that 2012 team goes 10-3/11-2, he probably doesn’t survive the 2016 season. His win percentage was raised by his great 5 year run. It was 65.5% his first 7 years.
You mention Tony Rice but I think athletic QB’s are more dangerous these days with the spread formations, options, bootlegs that you see from the gun. There’s more passing with opportunities to scramble than what Holtz was doing with Rice though I admit that’s before my time.
Typing this out makes me nervous about ND’s future haha. Just wish ND wouldn’t have choked against Marshall, Stanford, and Ohio State. 10-3 this year would feel pretty good though. Next year we’re going to see what Freeman is made of.
I hate to say it, but my concern is he tries to out x and o his opposition and the team’s fundamentals suck. Similar to Weis.
Notre Dame was a very different place in '04 than it is now in '23. In 2004 we were still essentially living in the 80s as far as facilities, nutrition, support staff, salaries, etc. Notre Dame could get an elite head coach right now if they had the proper leadership. It's going to be a very interesting offseason as we get a new President, Chair of the BOT, new AD takes over, etc.
If Nd fired Freeman....two huge negatives would exist: 1st, the PR comparing him to firing Willingham would occur...IOW....the big R word would surface (again), right or wrong. Secondly, his buyout would likely be too rich for Notre Dame's appetite. He isn't going anywhere.
I think it was time for Kelly to leave ND as it appeared he hit his apex. He was a great coach and I enjoyed his time here. Freeman simply hasn’t gotten the job done. He looks the part, speaks well in terms of motivation and the players love him, but his X’s & O’s knowledge and game management should be a cause for concern.
I don’t get why the board has to be Kelly vs Freeman. Kelly is gone and should be appreciated for his time but he isn’t coming back and it was his choice to leave.
Freeman better do what Kelly did after 2016 and overhaul the staff or he’ll be next on the chopping block.
Spare me with the “it took Kelly a while to improve the program” because he took over a broken team while Freeman inherited a Top 15 program. You can look and talk the part but if you don’t win games at ND, you’re gone.
I don’t get why the board has to be Kelly vs Freeman. Kelly is gone and should be appreciated for his time but he isn’t coming back and it was his choice to leave.
Freeman better do what Kelly did after 2016 and overhaul the staff or he’ll be next on the chopping block.
Spare me with the “it took Kelly a while to improve the program” because he took over a broken team while Freeman inherited a Top 15 program. You can look and talk the part but if you don’t win games at ND, you’re gone.
Agreed. There is no need to fire MF, none. However , some changes need to be made. A new OC is one and find a way to retain Golden. As for Freeman? Maybe there is a way to hire an “ advisor “ so to speak , on the nuances of being a head coach. Especially for “ in game “ coaching decisions. It would be bad all around to get rid of MF. I personally think he’ll be very good. The question is , are we going to stick with him through all of the growing pains ?
I am not convinced ND can get an elite coach. They haven't since Holtz. This discussion keeps recurring with many but 1 major recurring factor: an elite coach doesn't believe they can get the necessary players to credibly challenge for a NC.
As I boringly keep posting, I'm stuck in the 70s and 80s mindset when ND was THE TEAM. I hope and pray each season to see this again, as 1988 indeed is an even more distant time. Cheering for ND is in my DNA!
🙂
My heart says ND might get an elite coach? But my head knows the old days are gone and it just won't happen given self imposed academic restrictions. The greatest proof is EXACTLY the distance between now and 1988 and the coaches since Holtz.
All things being equal, players are the biggest factor. Elite coaches know they will compete against other elite coaches and programs...and need assurance they can get elite players in depth. It's that's simple, above Xs and Os.
ND has three critical factors going for it when it comes to attracting the top coaches in the sport:
1. one of the biggest stages in the country (top tv ratings, sold out stadiums virtually every week)
2. an endless pile of cash
3. an opening
That is a very desirable/attractive combination and keeps Notre Dame relevant in any A-list coaching hire because they are only 1 of a very small handful of programs that have this combination.
If a head coach succeeds at the highest level here, he becomes a national celebrity and a college football god. And NDs football program generates enough revenue where they can outbid anybody.
Also Jenkins & Swarbrick are gone after this season, so whoever the new AD & University President are, might be willing to allocate more resources to football and put their stamp on the football program.
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ALL TRUE.
But how much ACTUAL CHANGE are you anticipating?
Do you expect MATERIAL CHANGES that will allow ND to field teams equal in talent to Georgia, OSU and Alabama, for instance?
And I'm truly asking as I myself DON'T EXPECT TO SEE THAT.
But then, I'VE BEEN WRONG BEFORE.
Freeman has to aim very high and bring in an offensive coordinator. Not a co coordinator or consultant. Fire parker or....reassign him...see there? Didn't call for a demotion. This program needs a healthy dose of testosterone and "commitment". what is commitment? it's the "ham and egg principle"....when a chicken lays an egg....she's made a contribution...but that hog is committed. we have had enough contributions.
I agree, Kelly's tenure--at least in the first half of it--was not a complete failure in terms of the impact he made. And relative to his ND coaching peers (in recent times at least) he was a much better overall head coach. But he should have been let go much sooner.
It was pretty obvious sometime between 2014-2016 that Kelly had reached his ceiling at ND and he wasn't the guy to get them back to the top of college football. The way he just kept getting extended though it seemed like ND brass threw their hands up in the air at some point during Kelly's career and said "hey we may not be first place but we're not last" and was ok with merely coasting.
Kelly's consistency was outstanding though, and he built up a nice 2-3 deep at every position (although a very scarce amount of top talent especially at the skill positions).
Ultimately Kelly reached a 10th ranked ceiling at ND, and couldn't build a culture that attracted the game's best talent to get him over the hump.
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You still haven't bridged the recruiting gap...this is something specific, not a general allocation of more resources as you put it.
An elite coach can have everything you listed: money, brand, celebrity...and a NC. That is, if he coaches at Alabama, Ohio State, or Georgia. Not ND.
I again ask: what makes you think all the things you listed will net an elite coach when it simply hasn't since Holtz?
My answer remains: it won't happen due to recruiting impediments.
In my view, a top OC brings ND back to being a top 10 team. But no closer to being an elite NC contender than CBK.
I'm still hoping Freeman can raise recruiting a bit by his persona, which matters. Augmenting it with key transfers. Leverage the brand of course. And improve his coaching.
With NIL and transfers distributing talent, you won't see stacking of skill positions at factories like Alabama as much. So Freeman can narrow the player gap...but I still think it won't be enough.
I watched Alabama and they looked damn good. Beyond ND right now. Just on QB.
Give Sam Hartman a competent OC, better OL play, and a dynamic WR corps, we see a better Sam Hartman. He has little help.
resources like
- bigger (budget) for the scouting and recruiting department
- more NIL budget to even the playing field with the nations most important recruits
- Upgrade facilities with more "clubhouse perks"
- larger coaching payroll for better player development
ALL of this can be done at Notre Dame with money.
During the Holtz through Charlie Weis era, ND had the highest recruiting budget in the country by a longshot. At some point though when the game started becoming more profitable for a wider and wider amount of teams, ND didn't really continue to keep up in this regard.
During the prime of the Charlie Weis era, Weis brought in three top 5 classes in 3 years consecutively. And BK leveraged that kind of talent into what many see as his best team at ND (2012).
That’s what happens when you pin your hopes on a Wake Forrest QB. Hartman is no leader and just average ability wise.
All you listed still obfuscates and evades the point about recruiting impediments due to academic standards.
I also think you're reading the data wrong, if what you say is even true, in correlating past ND success to budgets. The stronger correlation is that ND allowed lots of academic accommodation. Not since Holtz.
Saban and Meyer won't come to ND because of mainly an inability to get their recruits. ND could possibly get lucky in getting a coach like Harbaugh, who's obviously there because he happens to be a Michigan man...but even he hasn't crack a NC because the Wolverines still can't get the players that Alabama and Georgia can.
Why don't we just have the other team lay down for him. Or should we start every possession at the 50
