ND's offense

[88ND]

No doubt you need a cast, but those spots always show up in the pro’s. Watch any game replay this year. Lenzy has been open so many times I lost count. We have people all over the field wide open. That catch by Lenzy was late and way under thrown.

If you look at this team, today. Insert Bryce Young. Who beats us?

OSU we are in scoring territory 3 times and came away with one FG.

You don’t win championships without a top QB. Maybe it’s CJ. Maybe it’s TB. Maybe it’s this kid from Pitt.

Would be nice to see ND land another Clausen. Undisputed number one.

We've yet to upcoach any QB in the last dozen years and get them to over achieve ...

It's just not as simple as insert player x and dreams come true.

The passing theme for 12 years has been tiny passing gains for 3-5 yards...a whopper is a 15 yard gain.

We don't coach or emphasize chunk plays in the passing game. You can't have been this pedestrian in the passing game for a dozen years and it not be a theme

 

[ftnfan62]

Deshone Kizer started an entire mothereffin' season for the Cleveland Browns.

So that's wrong. Jesus Christ, it's almost as if you don't follow ND at all if you could make such a blinding mistake like that.

Relax Mrs Kelly. It was a typo. 5 years, not 15.

 

[ftnfan62]

Are you talking about Palmer? Yeah ok.

But I'll take Jimmy's arm over BQ. In college game. Pretty sure Jimmy went higher in the draft than BQ. But neither had much of a career.

Both were great (elite) college QB's and all ND needs to get an NC.

BQ owns all the records but played 4 years. Clausen would own all the records if he returned his last season.

IMO, Clausen was the last excellent QB we had.

 

[NDblitz]

We've yet to upcoach any QB in the last dozen years and get them to over achieve ...

It's just not as simple as insert player x and dreams come true.

The passing theme for 12 years has been tiny passing gains for 3-5 yards...a whopper is a 15 yard gain.

We don't coach or emphasize chunk plays in the passing game. You can't have been this pedestrian in the passing game for a dozen years and it not be a theme

Book?

 

[Patrirish]

BQ owns all the records but played 4 years. Clausen would own all the records if he returned his last season.

IMO, Clausen was the last excellent QB we had.

Kizer was an excellent QB

 

[notredamerises23]

We've yet to upcoach any QB in the last dozen years and get them to over achieve ...

It's just not as simple as insert player x and dreams come true.

The passing theme for 12 years has been tiny passing gains for 3-5 yards...a whopper is a 15 yard gain.

We don't coach or emphasize chunk plays in the passing game. You can't have been this pedestrian in the passing game for a dozen years and it not be a theme

Both Book and Rees overachieved as QBs. Yes, they might have delivered the chunk plays you refer to, but both overachieved.

Book‘s QBRs from 2018 to 2020 were 12th, 19th, and 9th in the country. You can get high passer ratings by dumping the ball off, but you can’t get these QBR numbers doing the same.

 

[mbd11]

BQ owns all the records but played 4 years. Clausen would own all the records if he returned his last season.

IMO, Clausen was the last excellent QB we had.

Clausen put up good stats, but the team never did better than 7-6 under him. He was good if he had good protection, but he wasn't very good at making plays if his protection broke down. That was the knock on him IMO.

 

[88ND]

Both Book and Rees overachieved as QBs. Yes, they might have delivered the chunk plays you refer to, but both overachieved.

Book‘s QBRs from 2018 to 2020 were 12th, 19th, and 9th in the country. You can get high passer ratings by dumping the ball off, but you can’t get these QBR numbers doing the same.

Huh? The eye test brotha...
Some things aren't measured on a stat alone...and a stat that's rather skewed IMO.

Moreover in 2018 Book was 17th QBR...no?

But....that's not an indication of his overarching performance.
C'mon...he's at ND....right? At a bare minimum a ND QB should be able to achieve a QB rating ranking at least 17th.

Just how skewed is that stat? Trevor Lawrence was 12th.

By your measure there were 11 QB's ahead of Trevor Lawrence in 2018.
Given how the masses felt about Trevor Lawrence by your logic one would say he underachieved. Or rather you'd take some of the 11 QB's in front of him.

The eye test tells a different story.

BTW, Mr Book played Mr. Lawrence in 2018.
Book 17 of 34 for 160 yards
4.7 average

Lawrence 27 of 39 for 327 yards
8.4 average

ND longest recptions in that game?
Notre Dame longest receiving

	REC	YDS	AVG	TD	LONG
M. Boykin	5	69	13.8	0	23
D. Williams	3	29	9.7	0	16
C. Finke	2	24	12.0	0	13
C. Kmet	1	11	11.0	0	11
A. Mack	2	11	5.5	0	8
C. Claypool	2	8	4.0	0	6
J. Armstrong	2	8	4.0	0	4

Clemson's longest receiving

	REC	YDS	AVG	TD	LONG
J. Ross	6	148	24.7	2	52
H. Renfrow	4	62	15.5	0	32
T. Higgins	4	53	13.3	1	24
A. Rodgers	6	26	4.3	0	7
T. Chase	2	17	8.5	0	13
T. Etienne Jr.	1	8	8.0	0	8
T. Thompson	2	8	4.0	0	6
T. Feaster	1	3	3.0	0	3
W. Swinney	1	2	2.0	0	2

 

[mbd11]

Both Book and Rees overachieved as QBs. Yes, they might have delivered the chunk plays you refer to, but both overachieved.

Book‘s QBRs from 2018 to 2020 were 12th, 19th, and 9th in the country. You can get high passer ratings by dumping the ball off, but you can’t get these QBR numbers doing the same.

Agreed that they both overachieved. Neither were really expected to ever be a star when recruited. Book had a great record for a QB who came in as a 3* and wasn't even expected to ever start. His final W-L record was like 35-5.

 

[88ND]

Book?

Well...
Book in 2018 was ranked 17th with a 154 QBR


Coan in 2021 ranked 31st but...
Had a QBR of 151.8

If Coan had that ranting in 2018 he'd have ranked 20th.

In other words a negligible difference between he and Book.


Would you say Coan overachieved?

They are afterall at ND which has to be worth something in the QBR

 

[mbd11]

Well...
Book in 2018 was ranked 17th with a 154 QBR


Coan in 2021 ranked 31st but...
Had a QBR of 151.8

If Coan had that ranting in 2018 he'd have ranked 20th.

In other words a negligible difference between he and Book.


Would you say Coan overachieved?

They are afterall at ND which has to be worth something in the QBR

Coan had a fine season. I think he and Book were about equal as QBs, although their styles were different. They ended up with similar records and QB ratings. Although Book did more on the ground (1518 yds rushing and 17 TDs career), so maybe I'd rate him a little higher overall. And Coan was replaced a few times for ineffectiveness, although to his credit, a couple times he came back in and led us to comeback wins.

 

[NDblitz]

Well...
Book in 2018 was ranked 17th with a 154 QBR


Coan in 2021 ranked 31st but...
Had a QBR of 151.8

If Coan had that ranting in 2018 he'd have ranked 20th.

In other words a negligible difference between he and Book.


Would you say Coan overachieved?

They are afterall at ND which has to be worth something in the QBR

I'm saying Book overachieved. He was a three star and undersized. Decent but not great arm strength. His ability to extend plays is what really enabled him to move the ND offense and it forced teams to be more traditional in their game plans. Coan was also a three star. But had a more prototypical QB body and skill set than Book.

 

[john0gaunt]

Coan, in his 3rd season as a starter, went 1-2 vs ranked teams at ND.

Pyne, in first year as a starter, currently 3-0 and undefeated vs ranked teams...

 

[NDblitz]

Coan, in his 3rd season as a starter, went 1-2 vs ranked teams at ND.

Pyne, in first year as a starter, currently 3-0 and undefeated vs ranked teams...

3-0? Who are the 3? He's also 0-1 vs a bottom 20 team.

 

[88ND]

I'm saying Book overachieved. He was a three star and undersized. Decent but not great arm strength. His ability to extend plays is what really enabled him to move the ND offense and it forced teams to be more traditional in their game plans. Coan was also a three star. But had a more prototypical QB body and skill set than Book.

I don't think either over achieved whatsoever.
This is an opinion board and you've yours but IMO at our beloved, ND, a 3 star QB ( star ratings aren't always spot on) should be able to get a high teens QBR.

Coan and Book performed exactly as they should.
They didn't over achieve nor under achieve.

The ultimate point isn't about a QBR.

It's about big plays in the passing game. Top teams get big plays against top teams in the passing game.

We do NOT get chunk plays in the passing game against anyone. The fact it's been that way for a dozen years, sans a tiny window with Fuller, means it's implemented coaching scheme. Safety valve routes...check downs if you will...are exactly that for top teams.
That route is our primary route.

12 years says exactly that unfortunately....and unfortunately that means this is a bigger problem than just insert player X and suddenly we'll shredding the field with an aerial attack.
Golson
Rees
Kizer
Wimbush
Book
Coan
Pyne

Kizer was the best of the bunch of getting big plays and yet it wasn't setting the world afire.

Every single one minus a small window with Kizer all primarily threw that three yard curl and sit route.

If you want a better passing game the scheme needs changed.

 

[john0gaunt]

3-0? Who are the 3? He's also 0-1 vs a bottom 20 team.

Here, let me do the work for you:

As for Stanford, it's all about perspective. Drew is 1-1 vs ND rivals. Another big test Saturday, then the mother of all rivals next week. I'd prefer he learn his lessons on playing rivals going 1-1 against Stanford and Navy than either BC or usc.

Sat 11/12	vsNAVY	W 35-32	17	21	269	81.0	4	1	38	5	241.9	95.3	8	-13	-1.6	1	11
Sat 11/5	vs4CLEM	W 35-14	9	17	85	52.9	1	0	17	1	114.4	55.5	4	21	5.3	1	10
Sat 10/29	@16SYR	W 41-24	9	19	116	47.4	1	1	37	1	105.5	61.6	4	15	3.8	0	9
Sat 10/22	vsUNLV	W 44-21	14	28	205	50.0	2	1	37	0	127.9	37.5	3	30	10.0	0	21
Sat 10/8	vs16BYU	W 28-20	22	28	262	78.6	3	1	32	0	185.4	91.2	1	5	5.0	0

 

[NDblitz]

BYU and Syracuse are no longer ranked. And have both lost 4 or more games in a row. So....... And both are actually showing out as being pretty average. But he did beat UNC as you failed to mention and Clemson. Nice chart. It's aged well.

 

[john0gaunt]

BYU and Syracuse are no longer ranked.

Facts matter. They were ranked when Drew beat them. That's all he can do. A big reason they aren't ranked? Because he beat them. But you're welcome to your opinion. I just prefer facts.

 

[NDblitz]

Facts matter. They were ranked when Drew beat them. That's all he can do. A big reason they aren't ranked? Because he beat them. But you're welcome to your opinion. I just prefer facts.

Big Reason they aren't ranked. BYU is 5-5. Syracuse is 6-4. Neither beat a really good team. Baylor is meh. Purdue is meh. NCState has no QB. Lost to BC. Seems like a lot of teams beat them. But that's a neat take.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Relax Mrs Kelly. It was a typo. 5 years, not 15.

Oh, my mistake. Please excuse me. I was in the kitchen making cookies, because I'm Mrs Brian Kelly. You like peanut butter cookies????

Oh, and so does your post make sense now, after fixing the typo? With only five years it's down to just Jack Coan and Ian Book, who is in the NFL, even though he's not a starter. And Coan I think made it to the last cut of the team he signed with. Next time get your ducks in a row a little bit straighter, so you don't have to move the goalposts in haphazard fashion like this, when concocting another senseless BK-bashing narrative.....

 

[savvyandsassier]

Coan had a fine season. I think he and Book were about equal as QBs, although their styles were different. They ended up with similar records and QB ratings. Although Book did more on the ground (1518 yds rushing and 17 TDs career), so maybe I'd rate him a little higher overall. And Coan was replaced a few times for ineffectiveness, although to his credit, a couple times he came back in and led us to comeback wins.

I know, that was such a surprisingly fun and satisfying year, and Jack Coan was absolute ACES for us. Does bringing in a grad transfer QB go any more swimmingly than the way Coan played and delivered for us? I wouldn't think so. If we could have just managed to squeeze into the playoff he could have been a legend in ND lore, though of course that would never have happened as long as it was on BK's watch, even though it would have been a very cool story....

So Jack Coan was fantastic. And given what a complete success his grad transfer season was for us, it was maybe a little surprising they didn't try it a second time. But I can sympathize with Rees not wanting to do it two years in a row. It kind of does send the wrong message to your regular QBs.

That's why I'm not so sure we're going to do it again this next season, unless there's somebody really good and proven, like a Jack Coan. I suppose Cade McNamara could be that guy. But the fact that he snubbed ND in the past and bolted on his commitment, might not be the best circumstance in the mix, and could be a deal-breaker. Sam Hartman, on the other hand, would be something to look into.....

 

[john0gaunt]

Big Reason they aren't ranked. BYU is 5-5. Syracuse is 6-4. Neither beat a really good team. Baylor is meh. Purdue is meh. NCState has no QB. Lost to BC. Seems like a lot of teams beat them. But that's a neat take.

Lot's more opinions of yours. Lot's of teams you write off as meh. Clemson was #4 when Drew beat them. I know it doesn't fit your narrative though.

You also left out that the one team Coan did beat that was ranked, ended the year unranked. So, he actually never beat a ranked team at ND. Using your logic that is (or lack of).

Another neat take is Jack Coan, in his 3rd season as a starter had a 152 rating. Drew Pyne, in his first year as a starter, is a 151. So, he beats ranked teams, in fact, he never loses to them, and his rating is similar in just his first year. Aren't facts fun?

 

[ftnfan62]

We've yet to upcoach any QB in the last dozen years and get them to over achieve ...

It's just not as simple as insert player x and dreams come true.

The passing theme for 12 years has been tiny passing gains for 3-5 yards...a whopper is a 15 yard gain.

We don't coach or emphasize chunk plays in the passing game. You can't have been this pedestrian in the passing game for a dozen years and it not be a theme

I think you have to exclude TE’s when discussing WR’s

Kizer started for Cleveland as a rookie in 2017.

More referring to weapons that a QB can use. So many missed throws over the years that haunt us.

So many of the QB’s weapons in the Pro’s. From OL to TE. The one missing item for a very long time is the QB. 2017 the last true starter. JC almost 10 years back from there.

Book was a B+ QB. I’m confident we would be 9-1 with Book and maybe a last play game at OSU.

We need a Young, Mac, Fields or Tua for that next step. We have the other weapons. The only team to win in the last 5 years that has not had a pro QB is UGA and they have a QB very similar to Book.

 

[ftnfan62]

Covid year he played at ND

The 2 QB’s at New Orleans both out for Covid. 3rd string without Covid was Book.

 

[notredamerises23]

Huh? The eye test brotha...
Some things aren't measured on a stat alone...and a stat that's rather skewed IMO.

Moreover in 2018 Book was 17th QBR...no?

But....that's not an indication of his overarching performance.
C'mon...he's at ND....right? At a bare minimum a ND QB should be able to achieve a QB rating ranking at least 17th.

Just how skewed is that stat? Trevor Lawrence was 12th.

By your measure there were 11 QB's ahead of Trevor Lawrence in 2018.
Given how the masses felt about Trevor Lawrence by your logic one would say he underachieved. Or rather you'd take some of the 11 QB's in front of him.

The eye test tells a different story.

BTW, Mr Book played Mr. Lawrence in 2018.
Book 17 of 34 for 160 yards
4.7 average

Lawrence 27 of 39 for 327 yards
8.4 average

ND longest recptions in that game?
Notre Dame longest receiving

	REC	YDS	AVG	TD	LONG
M. Boykin	5	69	13.8	0	23
D. Williams	3	29	9.7	0	16
C. Finke	2	24	12.0	0	13
C. Kmet	1	11	11.0	0	11
A. Mack	2	11	5.5	0	8
C. Claypool	2	8	4.0	0	6
J. Armstrong	2	8	4.0	0	4

Clemson's longest receiving

	REC	YDS	AVG	TD	LONG
J. Ross	6	148	24.7	2	52
H. Renfrow	4	62	15.5	0	32
T. Higgins	4	53	13.3	1	24
A. Rodgers	6	26	4.3	0	7
T. Chase	2	17	8.5	0	13
T. Etienne Jr.	1	8	8.0	0	8
T. Thompson	2	8	4.0	0	6
T. Feaster	1	3	3.0	0	3
W. Swinney	1	2	2.0	0	2

Overarching performance? QBR takes into account every single snap played. I’m not sure about the college QBR, but I do know that the NFLQBR calculates every single throw difficulty based on game situation, i.e., easy throws when up big to pad stats vs. throws made down the field into tight windows. QBR covers all of this. So overall, they and especially Book overachieved relative to what was expected of them. QBR takes into account throw difficult, sacks being the QB’s fault, run yards added over expectation (Book excelled here). Neither was great, but Book especially performed incredibly well relative to what he was supppsed to be. You cannot get a top 15, top 10 QBR through luck.

 

[88ND]

.The only team to win in the last 5 years that has not had a pro QB is UGA and they have a QB very similar to Book.

Aaahhh...
But what does/did UGA do REALLY REALLY well?

Power football running the ball. Yes they have got some key receivers over the last couple years but make no mistake there was a time the Kirby led Bulldogs came off the bus running traps and draws, etc.

If we truly commit to running power football like againt Syracuse and Clemson we can do great things with a QB simply being efficiently pedestrain.

If we continue trying to dabble in both we are in no mans land. We need an identity and work at filling in other components via success, like Georgia has.

Our past 12 years says were are NOT getting a Trevor Lawrence type so we need to capitalize on what we do really well. Run the ball. A true commitment to power football can beat top teams who are built faster but smaller today to chase 5 wide outs in the spread. They're not equipped to stop power football. A true commitment to it. Just because you run the ball does NOT mean you're truly making a comittment to it.
Run just to run or pulling the sleeves up and really committing to it. Huge dufference.

Let's use UGA as a business model under Kirby.
Early on they were very run heavy. Why not? Chubb and that line...

Look what has happened...success around the top opens you up to more recruits.
Kids might want millions now but they're still ultimately suckers for winning.
Winning recruits itself.

So let's just say ND goes into a full blown power football model. Let's say they win a major bowl. Maybe next year not only make the playoff but win a game or be really close.
All of a sudden recruits like top WR's, maybe some better QB's, start signing. Then and only then you still do your bread and butter but possibly a little less because now you can throw the ball down the field.

Again using the UGA model...they didn't just do a 180 once they got some better perimeter material....no no. They still know they're a running team. Now they can be more lethal in the passing game but still never lose sight from what they do extremely well. Run the damn ball.


Pre syracuse/Clemson games we were in no mans land for 12 years. We did some things OK but no things great.

We need to start doing something great and get an identity, then work off of that.

 

[Rockne's Rambler]

Maybe. But there's a lot more that goes into being a great qb than just passing

Clausen did very well even with turf toe.

 

[Golson5]

Clausen did very well even with turf toe.

First 2 years he was average. 3rd year he was very good. If you play, no injury excuses

 

[tbonesays]

Coan had a fine season. I think he and Book were about equal as QBs, although their styles were different. They ended up with similar records and QB ratings. Although Book did more on the ground (1518 yds rushing and 17 TDs career), so maybe I'd rate him a little higher overall. And Coan was replaced a few times for ineffectiveness, although to his credit, a couple times he came back in and led us to comeback wins.

Coan didn't have the same support structure. The Oline was spotty and I don't think he had any receivers as good as Boykin, Claypool, St Brown.

I wonder how much of Kizer's success can be attributed to Fuller.

But the principle has been true for 12 years. The QB has been a liability instead of an asset at ND, with only a couple exceptions.

 

[mbd11]

Coan didn't have the same support structure. The Oline was spotty and I don't think he had any receivers as good as Boykin, Claypool, St Brown.

I wonder how much of Kizer's success can be attributed to Fuller.

But the principle has been true for 12 years. The QB has been a liability instead of an asset at ND, with only a couple exceptions.

Agreed, Coan didn't have as good an OL. That was a down year for our OL, with the youth and injuries.

 

[88ND]

Coan didn't have the same support structure. The Oline was spotty and I don't think he had any receivers as good as Boykin, Claypool, St Brown.

I wonder how much of Kizer's success can be attributed to Fuller.

But the principle has been true for 12 years. The QB has been a liability instead of an asset at ND, with only a couple exceptions.

This goes back further...much...

Think about it...

Powlus and including him because Holtz caught the biggest prize (no other recruit was ever as sought after... before or since)
But Holtz still had a very running style offense based on using 4 backs....

Tony Rice was tremendous.... a winner...but not an NFL type QB

Steve Buerelein had a long nfl career...


That's pretty god damn sparse truth be told...at ND.


Pathetic actually.

 

[88ND]

Overarching performance? QBR takes into account every single snap played. I’m not sure about the college QBR, but I do know that the NFLQBR calculates every single throw difficulty based on game situation, i.e., easy throws when up big to pad stats vs. throws made down the field into tight windows. QBR covers all of this. So overall, they and especially Book overachieved relative to what was expected of them. QBR takes into account throw difficult, sacks being the QB’s fault, run yards added over expectation (Book excelled here). Neither was great, but Book especially performed incredibly well relative to what he was supppsed to be. You cannot get a top 15, top 10 QBR through luck.

Huh?
Book was the 17th rated QB using that metric...

Now i have to ask...

At Notre Dame...

Don't you think 17th should be a given...and top 10 a bonus?

It is afterall ND, no?

Book performed exactly where you'd expect him to playing at ND.

Now if he led ND to a playoff win instead of say fumbling caused by air...and the like...

Then he most definitely overachieved.


He wet the bed in the largest of games exactly like his head coach

 

[Patrirish]

I'm saying Book overachieved. He was a three star and undersized. Decent but not great arm strength. His ability to extend plays is what really enabled him to move the ND offense and it forced teams to be more traditional in their game plans. Coan was also a three star. But had a more prototypical QB body and skill set than Book.

Yea, Book was so lacking in ability that the NFL drafted him and he made an NFL team’s roster.

The NFL is known for having players with no ability on their rosters.

Keep your day job !

 

[sjb75]

Huh?
Book was the 17th rated QB using that metric...

Now i have to ask...

At Notre Dame...

Don't you think 17th should be a given...and top 10 a bonus?

It is afterall ND, no?

Book performed exactly where you'd expect him to playing at ND.

Now if he led ND to a playoff win instead of say fumbling caused by air...and the like...

Then he most definitely overachieved.


He wet the bed in the largest of games exactly like his head coach

If Brian Kelly is such a lousy coach in big games, why did his LSU team recently defeat Alabama?

 

[Patrirish]

If Brian Kelly is such a lousy coach in big games, why did his LSU team recently defeat Alabama?

Now that’s a very good question

 

[Golson5]

If Brian Kelly is such a lousy coach in big games, why did his LSU team recently defeat Alabama?

Using a 1 game sample size is silly, no?

Didnt Ty beat Bobby Bowden?

 

[Patrirish]

Using a 1 game sample size is silly, no?

Didnt Ty beat Bobby Bowden?

The same could be said about Kelly’s loss to Alabama.

And you use the “1” sample as if it’s a universal all of the time.

You can’t have it both ways !

 

[Golson5]

The same could be said about Kelly’s loss to Alabama.

And you use the “1” sample as if it’s a universal all of the time.

You can’t have it both ways !

Alabama twice, Clemson 3x, Miami, Michigan, Georgia twice...

Thats 9 games right there

 

[Pennick4]

...we don't. The biggest need we have is a competent QB coach and perimter playmakers.

Remeber....

Montana reincarnated isn't doing much playing in the 3 yard curl and sit route offense.



What you need to ask yourself is this....


What do those teams have in common?

It's big chunk plays in the passing game.

They all get big plays either via catch and run or long passes in the air.

Either way big plays they have...


Big plays we don't.


This thinking of getting a QB goes just a tad further than one individual

Thanks Coach.

 

[Patrirish]

Alabama twice, Clemson 3x, Miami, Michigan, Georgia twice...

Thats 9 games right there

Over how many years ?