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There are a LOT of spoiled brats on this board...

Java, generally agree with your main point. Not sure what changes you are referencing. For example, I think ND requires the players to carry 15 units to be on good standing. If correct, would love to see them allow a 12 unit course load during the season if the player is on track to graduate in four years. Another example, Would love to see the business school offer a world class sports management degree as I think this would appeal to some elite talents willing to put in the work, etc... These are my limited thoughts. What are you thinking?
 
Java, generally agree with your main point. Not sure what changes you are referencing. For example, I think ND requires the players to carry 15 units to be on good standing. If correct, would love to see them allow a 12 unit course load during the season if the player is on track to graduate in four years. Another example, Would love to see the business school offer a world class sports management degree as I think this would appeal to some elite talents willing to put in the work, etc... These are my limited thoughts. What are you thinking?
You hit on my main one, lessening the workload during the season. I'd go a bit further and allow them to take less than 12 credits during the season and they can make them up in the summer.

They certainly need to strengthen their academic support for the players recently far too many academic casualties

I'd like to see them allow Kelly 1 or 2 academic "freebies" a year, along the lines of Tony Rice (who would not get a scholarship today).

I'm sure there are other small changes but those are my main ones.
 
Maybe the discussion should be what standard or metrics equal success for ND with all the challenges enumerated here. The program should be judged by academic achievement and accountability, the citizenship of the athletes and coaches, and on field performance. With respect to the later, I personally want to see double digit wins on a regular basis and legitimately in the NC conversation on a regular basis, winning the NC every ten years or so, while accepting the occasional eight win season.

But, except to comparing to by-gone eras with different restrictions, what is the basis for such expectations. How many programs/coaches are having these kinds of results? Maybe 2 (Saban and Meyer) get the on-field results you cite, but the off-field results are not absolutely clear.

So we all want these results, are these expectations reasonable in the current era of increased parity?
 
I agree the program is the most solid it's been since Holtz but a train wreck? Go look at the thread about the 14 players from 2012 team in NFL. Click on the link and look at all of the ND players that have played in the NFL this year, there are 33 or so. All but a couple of them were recruited by Weis or Ty. That '12 was almost all Weis guys.

Weis couldn't develop players to save his soul but he could recruit, there were lots of good players here. Not to mention Weis worked with admissions to get kids approved faster so they could offer them. Before Weis ND was way behind offering kids and would be out of contention too early. Weis is the one who started the training table.

Not winning on Sat does not equal train wreck.
you missed the point. the "program" was a train wreck and by that i mean the sunday through friday workings of the program was in shambles. talent was certainly present but weis was arguably the worst administrator in the modern era of college football. the results on saturday are a byproduct of the rest of the week. kelly inherited a soft, unmotivated culture that got progressively worse under weis. sometimes you have to tear it all down and rebuild. that's what has happened.
 
you missed the point. the "program" was a train wreck and by that i mean the sunday through friday workings of the program was in shambles. talent was certainly present but weis was arguably the worst administrator in the modern era of college football. the results on saturday are a byproduct of the rest of the week. kelly inherited a soft, unmotivated culture that got progressively worse under weis. sometimes you have to tear it all down and rebuild. that's what has happened.

Yep, and despite how bad he was he made it to 2 BCS games and was a bush push from NC game consideration. He also left a ton of talent for which kelly was the beneficiary.
 
Yep, and despite how bad he was he made it to 2 BCS games and was a bush push from NC game consideration. He also left a ton of talent for which kelly was the beneficiary.
no one denying the talent. however he left that talent soft and unmotivated. no surprise that every year weis was here they got worse. he did well with willinghams guys. not so good with his own.
 
you missed the point. the "program" was a train wreck and by that i mean the sunday through friday workings of the program was in shambles. talent was certainly present but weis was arguably the worst administrator in the modern era of college football. the results on saturday are a byproduct of the rest of the week. kelly inherited a soft, unmotivated culture that got progressively worse under weis. sometimes you have to tear it all down and rebuild. that's what has happened.
I don't necessarily disagree with what you said about being soft, etc. but not every aspect of the Sun-Fri workings were a disaster, large parts were I agree.

As I said without Weis creating the structure with admissions Kelly would have not been nearly as successful at recruiting his first couple of years.

Not sure how much you read about the training table but I was shocked by this. Apparently players would get out of practice late or have to study etc and the caf would be closed or very little was left. Apparently a lot of players lost too much weight during the season as a result. Without this Kelly would have no chance of getting to the NC game in 2012.

Again, Weis left a LOT of talent for Kelly to work with.

The fact is Weis inherited a program in far worse shape than Kelly did. Very little talent and recruiting months behind every other school.
 
no one denying the talent. however he left that talent soft and unmotivated. no surprise that every year weis was here they got worse. he did well with willinghams guys. not so good with his own.

" he left that talent soft and unmotivated" I disagree.

I'd say he left the team in disarray and kelly organized them better.
 
I don't necessarily disagree with what you said about being soft, etc. but not every aspect of the Sun-Fri workings were a disaster, large parts were I agree.

As I said without Weis creating the structure with admissions Kelly would have not been nearly as successful at recruiting his first couple of years.

Not sure how much you read about the training table but I was shocked by this. Apparently players would get out of practice late or have to study etc and the caf would be closed or very little was left. Apparently a lot of players lost too much weight during the season as a result. Without this Kelly would have no chance of getting to the NC game in 2012.

Again, Weis left a LOT of talent for Kelly to work with.

The fact is Weis inherited a program in far worse shape than Kelly did. Very little talent and recruiting months behind every other school.
weis had much more success with the talent he inherited than he did with what he left. go figure. that said the "program " is much more than the players it's how it's run and what the approach and philosophies are from top to bottom. weis thought he was smarter than everyone. he hired a staff of guys who were excellent recruiters and below average position coaches. the lack of a training table at nd was well documented for years. ever think kelly would have had a training table instituted ? yes kelly inherited talent but it was soft and unmotivated. he tore them down and built them back up.
 
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Granite, the teams with the most wins over the past ten years are as follows:

1. Boise St 113
2. Ohio St 110
3. Alabama 107
4. Oregon 106
5. LSU 103
6. Oklahoma 101
7. TCU 100
8. USC 99
9. Wisconsin 98
10. Virginia Tech 98

Certainly, ND can and should succeed at a comparable rate.
 
Yep, and despite how bad he was he made it to 2 BCS games and was a bush push from NC game consideration. He also left a ton of talent for which kelly was the beneficiary.
In 2005 and 2006 he was working with upperclassmen that were developed under another staff. That's fine and it landed him a fat severance package. It wasn't clear until his four and five star recruits were performing like two and three star recruits that the questions started to arise. CW was good on Saturdays with developed players but poor Sunday thru Friday at developing players. I could see an argument if CW went on to become successful at another college stop but he got canned at the next stop for the exact same reasons and, of course, landed a fat severance package from them.

You do realize CW is paid more to not do the job at ND then BK is paid to work his azz off doing it.
 
In 2005 and 2006 he was working with upperclassmen that were developed under another staff. That's fine and it landed him a fat severance package. It wasn't clear until his four and five star recruits were performing like two and three star recruits that the questions started to arise. CW was good on Saturdays with developed players but poor Sunday thru Friday at developing players. I could see an argument if CW went on to become successful at another college stop but he got canned at the next stop for the exact same reasons and, of course, landed a fat severance package from them.

You do realize CW is paid more to not do the job at ND then BK is paid to work his azz off doing it.

I put weis in the category of among the "worst CFB HCs" ever. He may be the worst.
 
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weis had much more success with the talent he inherited than he did with what he left. go figure. that said the "program " is much more than the players it's how it's run and what the approach and philosophies are from top to bottom. weis thought he was smarter than everyone. he hired a staff of guys who were excellent recruiters and below average position coaches. the lack of a training table at nd was well documented for years. ever think kelly would have had a training table instituted ? yes kelly inherited talent but it was soft and unmotivated. he tore them down and built them back up.

No I don't think Kelly would have gotten a training table in his first few years. In fact I am very certain he would not have. Weis had to fight like hell, use a lot of his connections as an alum to get it done. There was a lot of resistance from administration for giving athletes a special menu & dining options. There is no chance Kelly would have gotten it done in his first 2 years.

I'm not sure what tearing down and building up you think went on,Kelly simply did what any good coach does, he developed his players.

Overall Kelly is a far better coach than Weis and that's not even debatable but you are attempting to make Kelly more than he is by making Weis less than he was.
 
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Thanks IG, I feel better already!
Another tip for you: if the poster you ignore has started a thread then it will completely disappear. However, if you have posted on the thread then you will still get alerts on the flag on the top right of your screen. You will have to go into the thread and 'unwatch' it.
 
No I don't think Kelly would have gotten a training table in his first few years. In fact I am very certain he would not have. Weis had to fight like hell, use a lot of his connections as an alum to get it done. There was a lot of resistance from administration for giving athletes a special menu & dining options. There is no chance Kelly would have gotten it done in his first 2 years.

I'm not sure what tearing down and building up you think went on,Kelly simply did what any good coach does, he developed his players.

Overall Kelly is a far better coach than Weis and that's not even debatable but you are attempting to make Kelly more than he is by making Weis less than he was.
we'll agree to disagree. not sure it's possible to make weis less than he was.
 
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