Saban's one of the Greatest Coaches of All-Time, but..

[Patrirish]

She was consider a booster and a rep of the university.

And why was she considered a booster?
Because she paid $25 to join the breakfast club
She was a girlfriend of an active player and it was the NCAA that tied her into the booster alligation solely on her joining a breakfast club by paying $25

I know far more about this case than you do

You were disingenuous in your presentation

No surprise there

 

[Patrirish]

Keep telling yourself that

"Fans and boosters can donate through collectives or agencies and can get very specific in where they want their money targeted"

Can Universities be involved in NIL deals?

"Schools would not be permitted to directly compensate student-athletes for the use of their NIL BUT could identify potential NIL opportunities for student-athletes and even facilitate deals between student-athletes and third parties."

...."and even facilitate deals between student-athletes and third parties."

You didn’t answer my question
Notre Dame accepts money from me, am I a booster ?

Schools can’t directly compensate athletes
Cite one example of where a school directly compensated an athlete solely because he performed on an athletic team

 

[Irishjohn68]

And why was she considered a booster?
Because she paid $25 to join the breakfast club
She was a girlfriend of an active player and it was the NCAA that tied her into the booster alligation solely on her joining a breakfast club by paying $25

I know far more about this case than you do

You were disingenuous in your presentation

No surprise there

Keep proving my point. Yes she was a booster. What are you even arguing. We both agree she was a booster.

 

[Patrirish]

Keep proving my point. Yes she was a booster. What are you even arguing. We both agree she was a booster.

Only in the wild eyes of the NCAA

I don’t agree that she was a booster

Joining a breakfast club is beyond a stretch and qualifying someone as a booster

She was Absolutely not a booster in the historical and traditional context of boosters whose primary actions as a booster were to illegally assist scholarship athletes.

She was the girlfriend of a player and as his girlfriend she gave him gifts, not as a booster

are joining the breakfast club with secondary, and subsequent to the gift that you gave to her boyfriend

 

[Irishjohn68]

Only in the wild eyes of the NCAA

I don’t agree that she was a booster

Joining a breakfast club is beyond a stretch and qualifying someone as a booster

She was Absolutely not a booster in the historical and traditional context of boosters whose primary actions as a booster were to illegally assist scholarship athletes.

She was the girlfriend of a player and as his girlfriend she gave him gifts, not as a booster

are joining the breakfast club with secondary, and subsequent to the gift that you gave to her boyfriend

I agree that I don’t think she was a booster. IMO I don’t think ND or Holtz believes she was a booster. However the NCAA felt differently.

 

[Patrirish]

I agree that I don’t think she was a booster. IMO I don’t think ND or Holtz believes she was a booster. However the NCAA felt differently.

The NCAA‘s ruling was a real stretch and I’ll never understand why Notre Dame didn’t contest it.

The same goes for the tutor issue that caused the forfeiture of a season’s games.
But, Father Jenkins agreed to abide by the verdict prior to the discovery process
Who in their right mind agrees to a verdict before it’s rendered
An absolutely horrible decision by Father Jenkins

The NCAA was looking to hit Notre Dame and this was all they could come up with.

 

[Irishjohn68]

The NCAA‘s ruling was a real stretch and I’ll never understand why Notre Dame didn’t contest it.

The same goes for the tutor issue that caused the forfeiture of a season’s games.
But, Father Jenkins agreed to abide by the verdict prior to the discovery process
Who in their right mind agrees to a verdict before it’s rendered
An absolutely horrible decision by Father Jenkins

The NCAA was looking to hit Notre Dame and this was all they could come up with.

I agree with you. Do you remember who the player was?

 

[Irishjohn68]

The NCAA‘s ruling was a real stretch and I’ll never understand why Notre Dame didn’t contest it.

The same goes for the tutor issue that caused the forfeiture of a season’s games.
But, Father Jenkins agreed to abide by the verdict prior to the discovery process
Who in their right mind agrees to a verdict before it’s rendered
An absolutely horrible decision by Father Jenkins

The NCAA was looking to hit Notre Dame and this was all they could come up with.

Witch hunt by the NCAA. The NCAA is absolutely worthless with no backbone.

 

[Patrirish]

I agree with you. Do you remember who the player was?

Derrick Mayes was the primary player

 

[Patrirish]

Witch hunt by the NCAA. The NCAA is absolutely worthless with no backbone.

Agreed, the breakfast club was nothing more than a fan club !

I don’t understand why the university didn’t contest it

 

[Irishjohn68]

Derrick Mayes was the primary player

Oh yes. I couldn’t remember who the player was. Didn’t Kim Dunbar get arrested for embezzling money from her employer?

 

[Patrirish]

Oh yes. I couldn’t remember who the player was. Didn’t Kim Dunbar get arrested for embezzling money from her employer?

She embezzled about 1.4 million and went to jail

 

[deadirishpoet]

You didn’t answer my question
Notre Dame accepts money from me, am I a booster ?

Schools can’t directly compensate athletes
Cite one example of where a school directly compensated an athlete solely because he performed on an athletic

The money you gave to ND can not go directly to an athlete, but doesn't mean the university can't direct the athletes to a booster for NIL funds

Schools would not be permitted to directly compensate student-athletes for the use of their NIL BUT could identify potential NIL opportunities for student-athletes and even facilitate deals between student-athletes and third parties."

...."and even facilitate deals between student-athletes and third parties."

Example

Notre Dame:
Welcome Mr. 5 athlete let me introduce you to Mr. Booster who can get you what you want.

Being the middleman is shaddy at the least, and no better than what congressmen in the stock market gets away with.

 

[deadirishpoet]

Only in the wild eyes of the NCAA

I don’t agree that she was a booster

Joining a breakfast club is beyond a stretch and qualifying someone as a booster

She was Absolutely not a booster in the historical and traditional context of boosters whose primary actions as a booster were to illegally assist scholarship athletes.

She was the girlfriend of a player and as his girlfriend she gave him gifts, not as a booster

are joining the breakfast club with secondary, and subsequent to the gift that you gave to her boyfriend

Well the NCAA is the ruling body whether we like it or not.....case closed

 

[Irishjohn68]

She embezzled about 1.4 million and went to jail

Ouch. Was it that much? That’s a shit load of cash. I thought she stole money and gave gifts to football players.

 

[Patrirish]

Oh yes. I couldn’t remember who the player was. Didn’t Kim Dunbar get arrested for embezzling money from her employer?

What I didn’t understand is, why the university didn’t contest the NCAA is ruling.
At both the NCAA Level and if that failed in the courts

Dunbar gave gifts to her boyfriend and others
They had an intimate relationship
Her giving gifts to Mayes had nothing to do with the football program,
It was a quasi-romantic relationship

I can’t think of a reason in the world why the university did contestant it.
except that once again, I think father Jenkins was naïve and misguided
I don’t think he understood the repercussions

Same for the student advisor in 2012

But in the 2012 incident, Jenkins agreed to the verdict prior to it being rendered
That had to be one of the most naïve, dumbest decisions in the university’s history

And it was a witchhunt by the NCAA

 

[Patrirish]

Ouch. Was it that much? That’s a shit load of cash. I thought she stole money and gave gifts to football players.

It was either 1.4 million or 1.8 million. But it was a lot of money.
And I think she gave gifts to about eight players
And she would fly away on trips with them, etc. etc.
The guy who owned the company that she embezzled from was upset that she was released so early

He said that one year in jail for stealing, $1.4 million seemed like a mild price to pay

I think she served one year out of a four year sentence

 

[Patrirish]

Well the NCAA is the ruling body whether we like it or not.....case closed

That’s not necessarily true
You can appeal the decision with the NCAA
And if you lose your appeal with the NCAA, you can litigate the issue in the court system.

I spoke to trustees and advocated for going to court, but regrettably that path was never taken and I don’t know why.

Bad judgment, decisions and management at the highest level

 

[Irishjohn68]

I’m guessing according to the NCAA if you pay $$$ to an alumni club you are considered a booster. We all know the NCAA has silly rules. Does anyone remember years ago there was a silly rule about cream cheese on bagels? Or athletes not allowed to use vending machines that other students didn’t have access too?

 

[Patrirish]

I’m guessing according to the NCAA if you pay $$$ to an alumni club you are considered a booster. We all know the NCAA has silly rules. Does anyone remember years ago there was a silly rule about cream cheese on bagels? Or athletes not allowed to use vending machines that other students didn’t have access too?

The absurd thing about the ruling was the total disregard for the significance of the relationship between Kim Dunbar and Derick Mays.

When Tiger Woods was playing a practice round for the Masters he was paired with Greg Norman, who was the number one player in the world at the time.

Tiger Woods was playing a different type of golf ball from Norman
So Norman gave Tiger a dozen of his brand of golf balls, and said you ought to try these out

Someone reported it to Stanford and the NCAA and Tiger was called into the compliance officer’s office at Stanford. Tiger was smart enough to take his dad with him, and his dad laced into the compliance people for the absurdity of the complaint.

Jenkins should have done the same

 

[deadirishpoet]

What I didn’t understand is, why the university didn’t contest the NCAA is ruling.
At both the NCAA Level and if that failed in the courts

Dunbar gave gifts to her boyfriend and others
They had an intimate relationship
Her giving gifts to Mayes had nothing to do with the football program,
It was a quasi-romantic relationship

I can’t think of a reason in the world why the university did contestant it.
except that once again, I think father Jenkins was naïve and misguided
I don’t think he understood the repercussions

Same for the student advisor in 2012

But in the 2012 incident, Jenkins agreed to the verdict prior to it being rendered
That had to be one of the most naïve, dumbest decisions in the university’s history

And it was a witchhunt by the NCAA

How often does that happen?

 

[Patrirish]

How often does that happen?

I don’t know.

 

[tbonesays]

How often does that happen?

How often does a private school take the NCAA to court and win? I will guess never.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

How often does a private school take the NCAA to court and win? I will guess never.

The NCAA's track record in court is actually poor. It has lost most of the major cases it has litigated over the past several decades. Most of those have involved litigation with individual athletes or public universities, but the NCAA has lost far more often than it has won. The two major cases the NCAA has lost before SCOTUS have been NCAA v. Board of Regents, which ruled the NCAA's restrictions on television rights violoated antitrust laws, and NCAA v. Alston, which held the NCAA's restrictions on NIL violated antitrust laws. I think part of the reason the NCAA is not pursuing what it perceives to be NIL violations is that it is fearful it will lose in court, again.

 

[deadirishpoet]

The NCAA's track record in court is actually poor. It has lost most of the major cases it has litigated over the past several decades. Most of those have involved litigation with individual athletes or public universities, but the NCAA has lost far more often than it has won. The two major cases the NCAA has lost before SCOTUS have been NCAA v. Board of Regents, which ruled the NCAA's restrictions on television rights violoated antitrust laws, and NCAA v. Alston, which held the NCAA's restrictions on NIL violated antitrust laws. I think part of the reason the NCAA is not pursuing what it perceives to be NIL violations is that it is fearful it will lose in court, again.

It is clear something needs to be done about NIL, so if not the NCAA than who?

Saban won't be able to 'dominate' with NIL changes

Mike Florio and Chris Simms discuss Alabama head coach Nick Saban's comments on "parity" in college football and wonder if his concern about NIL is routed in his fear of losing dominance.

www.nbcsports.com

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

It is clear something needs to be done about NIL, so if not the NCAA than who?

Saban won't be able to 'dominate' with NIL changes

Mike Florio and Chris Simms discuss Alabama head coach Nick Saban's comments on "parity" in college football and wonder if his concern about NIL is routed in his fear of losing dominance.

www.nbcsports.com

The problem with the existing situation is that there is a patchwork of state NIL laws, with no uniformity between them. Some states have no NIL laws at all. So what may be legal in one state may not be legal in another, leading to an uneven playing field. And then you have states like Alabama, which enacted NIL legistation and then repealed it because the legislators perceived that it put Alabama universities (read: the University of Alabama) at a "competitive disadvantage."

So the real solution is to have Congress enact NIL legislation. While some are loathe to see Congress get in the middle of this, that is the only practical way to level the playing field. Any legislation would need a preemption clause, meaning any existing state NIL laws would be preempted by the federal statute. The rub, I suppose, is creating an enforcement mechanism. Should that be left to the NCAA? I'm not sure Congress is willing to do that. Would you have to create some sort of administrative agency to oversee NIL? I don't know the answer to that, either. And I am certain many don't want to see another federal agency created.

The other solution would be to leave NIL enforcement to the NCAA, but that simply isn't working.

In the event you are interested, here is a state-by-state summary of existing NIL laws (effective as of 5/25/2023):

NIL Incoming: Comparing State Laws and Proposed Legislation - Opendorse

*Updated 5/25/2023* From the California State Capitol in Sacramento to Florida’s in Tallahassee, no two state offices have garnered more attention on the topic of collegiate student-athletes’ name, image, and likeness (NIL). In the fall of 2019, California Governor Gavin Newsom signed the “Fair...

biz.opendorse.com

And here is a summary of federal legislation under consideration:

Highlights of the Federal Proposals to Regulate NIL Deals

Although most Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) laws exist at the state level, Congress is weighing several competing bills that seek to create uniform regulations across the country. These proposals have unique aspects that institutions and businesses interested in entering NIL endorsement deals...

www.littler.com

 

[Patrirish]

How often does a private school take the NCAA to court and win? I will guess never.

Why would you guess ”never” ?

You’d be wrong, but I’m curious as to why you think that the NCAA never erred.

 

[NDinNJ]

What I didn’t understand is, why the university didn’t contest the NCAA is ruling.
At both the NCAA Level and if that failed in the courts

Dunbar gave gifts to her boyfriend and others
They had an intimate relationship
Her giving gifts to Mayes had nothing to do with the football program,
It was a quasi-romantic relationship

I can’t think of a reason in the world why the university did contestant it.
except that once again, I think father Jenkins was naïve and misguided
I don’t think he understood the repercussions

Same for the student advisor in 2012

But in the 2012 incident, Jenkins agreed to the verdict prior to it being rendered
That had to be one of the most naïve, dumbest decisions in the university’s history

And it was a witchhunt by the NCAA

It may have been they didn't want to undermine the NCAA any more than it had been, with NIL beginning to rear its ugly head back then.

 

[Patrirish]

It may have been they didn't want to undermine the NCAA any more than it had been, with NIL beginning to rear its ugly head back then.

I don’t buy the “take a bullet for the NCAA” theory, especially since this was Notre Dame‘s first major violation and a real black mark in terms of the penalty imposed on ND

 

[NDinNJ]

I don’t buy the “take a bullet for the NCAA” theory, especially since this was Notre Dame‘s first major violation and a real black mark in terms of the penalty imposed on ND

Then why not fight it? What other reason to not contest it?

 

[Patrirish]

Then why not fight it? What other reason to not contest it?

My guess is, and it’s only a guess, is that it starts and ends at the top.

That it was father Jenkins, decision not to appeal or challenge

The basis for my conjecture ?

Who agrees to a penalty before a decision is rendered ?

 

[Irishjohn68]

My guess is, and it’s only a guess, is that it starts and ends at the top.

That it was father Jenkins, decision not to appeal or challenge

The basis for my conjecture ?

Who agrees to a penalty before a decision is rendered ?

My guess would be in the hopes the NCAA will hand down a lighter punishment.

 

[Patrirish]

My guess would be in the hopes the NCAA will hand down a lighter punishment.

HOPE is never a good strategy

 

[deadirishpoet]

HOPE is never a good strategy

Lol very true

 

[raulduke_007]

When you count in what Brady did with him, they have to put him number 1

That wasnt the point or argument. It's what he is/was without Brady

Bill Walsh was about to be fired before Montana became his QB. I dont think anyone believes he was a bad coach/average coach.

Jimmy Johnson never won anything without Aikman not thinks he was an average coach

Andy Reid was just asked what was the secret to his success and he said drafting a HOF QB

Tom Landry had Staubach while he had tons success over 29 seasons his only 2 SB came with Staubach.

Lombardi had Starr only champs came with him

Knoll coached 20+ years only titles came with Bradshaw.

Off the top of my head only coaches I can think about that won SB with different QB's were Gibbs and Parcell in the 80's & early 90's.

 

[tbonesays]

Why would you guess ”never” ?

You’d be wrong, but I’m curious as to why you think that the NCAA never erred.

Well no one has named one successful action by a private school. The privates have little to no leverage. They don't have sovereign immunity or an elected official trying to make a name for himself. The answer is always you are free to leave.

 

[Golson5]

Bill Walsh was about to be fired before Montana became his QB. I dont think anyone believes he was a bad coach/average coach.

Jimmy Johnson never won anything without Aikman not thinks he was an average coach

Andy Reid was just asked what was the secret to his success and he said drafting a HOF QB

Tom Landry had Staubach while he had tons success over 29 seasons his only 2 SB came with Staubach.

Lombardi had Starr only champs came with him

Knoll coached 20+ years only titles came with Bradshaw.

Off the top of my head only coaches I can think about that won SB with different QB's were Gibbs and Parcell in the 80's & early 90's.

Dumb post.

It's not only about winning Super Bowls. He's well below .500 as a coach without Brady.

I would have to do some research on the others but Id say the other coaches aren't well below .500 without their top Qb

Without research, I know for a fact Reid was very successful with McNabb, Vick and Smith. He won a lot of games and a lot of playoff games without Mahomes

BB can't say that without Brady

 

[Patrirish]

Well no one has named one successful action by a private school. The privates have little to no leverage. They don't have sovereign immunity or an elected official trying to make a name for himself. The answer is always you are free to leave.

“Leverage“ is irrelevant once you’re in court.

 

[deadirishpoet]

“Leverage“ is irrelevant once you’re in court.

Well that's how it use to be.
OJ changed that

 

[raulduke_007]

Dumb post.

It's not only about winning Super Bowls. He's well below .500 as a coach without Brady.

I would have to do some research on the others but Id say the other coaches aren't well below .500 without their top Qb

Without research, I know for a fact Reid was very successful with McNabb, Vick and Smith. He won a lot of games and a lot of playoff games without Mahomes

BB can't say that without Brady

Walsh was under .500 without Montana
Knoll was under .500 without Bradshaw
Johnson was .536 at Miami