Election Night Thread
- Thread starter Kraftwerk
- Start date
It is amazing to me how staunch supporters of either side are willing to believe everything they come across just to support a side. Here in FL if you had (R) behind your name the sentiment was Andrew Gillum wanted to implement a state income tax. If you live in FL you know there are no state income taxes and it takes an act from God himself to get it through the state constitution. Yet the day after the election some of those right leaning people admit they were wrong. It just goes to show you how many people vote without educating themselves or they choose to be ignorant.
Spoken like a true ignorant American. I hope you never need public services from this day forward.
Wow, so now you are ignorant if you are against increasing the socialist tendencies in our government system? Spoken like a true intolerant lefty.
You managed to get that from my reply? Continued to be impressed how you people eat, $hit and breath your dogma.
I guess you need to explain the deep inner meaning of your reply since, on the surface, it appears that you called someone ignorant for being happy a socialist lost an election in his state.
I marvel that those who lean heavily republican have never noticed that the last few republican presidents have used the same formula: first, military spending is increased. Then taxes are cut, usually leaning more to wealthy individuals and businesses. Then "We have a deficit. We need to cut entitlements like Medicaid and Social Security. It's killing the budget." No, cutting your revenue stream while increasing your spending is killing your budget. That's Business 101.
I'm also always baffled at the line that "giving the rich more money will boost the economy". We are a consumer driven society. Giving the middle and lower classes more discretionary money means they will spend, invest, and save more. That means more revenue for business, small and big.
But then I also marvel at those who lean heavily democratic that want to increase the levels of coverage of social programs without a viable means to pay for them. There rarely is any thought as to lowering costs in existing programs by evaluating where money is being wasted to free it up to be used for expansion elsewhere.
And both sides frustrate me with immigration. Neither side really wants an answer. Both sides are aware that enacting a solution will give the other side a club to beat them with if things don't work. Neither side wants to piss off their corporate donors, as the both sides have donors that benefit from cheap labor.
When Trump proposed a program that protected the dreamers, going against many in his own party, and the liberals didn't embrace it, you knew right then that neither party has much interest in bringing this issue to a solution. Which is really what their job is. Very disappointing. And the public seems impotent to do anything about it.
The fact you keep calling any politician in this country a straight up socialist means you'll never get it.
Point taken. Change it to "a politician with overtly greater socialist tendencies than a typical American politician".
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Aside from Soros, and Hollywood you have Bloomberg,Zuckerberg,Musk,Gates ect ect
That big spender Bush did himself no favors, but the democratic house started it all off with the democratic Congress compound the bad economy with its overreaching governmental takeovers of the housing market, and bailing out failing businesses.
In regards to deficit cutting it was president Obama who in a little over 3 years increase th he debt more than Bush did in 8 therefore his cuts mattered little because they were still historical highs. There's no confusion you can't control the debt unless you stop borrowing
Those tens of millions are getting coverage off of my back, and many more millions like me. My premiums went from $500 to $4000.
Why should we flip the bill?
President Obama went to bed with the insurance companies
President Obama telling Americans factory jobs are not cominng back taking jobs that many millions of Americans rely on not only for income but health insurance aswell.
President Trump understood this and made America business friendly with the corporate tax cuts. That's good business
Now I blame establishment Republicans for factories leaving when NAFTA was implemented and they controlled Congress.
What are Democrats going to change with healthcare give insurance companies more money while allowing no competition? They've wrecked the health care system enough.....wait single payer that's their ticket all along.
After reading the last few pages of this thread, it seems people on this site feel what we already know: that both parties aren't representing their constituents.
We don't live in a democracy, we live in an oligarchy. Which is why we need to get private money out of politics and move towards public funding. There's a movement called the wolf-pac that is fighting/advocating for just that. There's also a movement left of the democratic party called the justice democrats (and several others like it) who are fighting to get money out of politics, for medicare for all, for free public colleges, for a new new deal, abolish private prisons, tax wall st. speculation, end the wars, etc. and move the US towards more of a social democracy.
Almost every single issue that i listed above polls extremely favorably with the american people.
Are there any republicans or anybody in the democratic establishment fighting for any of these populist policies? No, because the establishment doesn't represent the people, they represent the agendas of the super wealthy and corporate elite.
We don't live in a democracy, we live in an oligarchy. Which is why we need to get private money out of politics and move towards public funding. There's a movement called the wolf-pac that is fighting/advocating for just that. There's also a movement left of the democratic party called the justice democrats (and several others like it) who are fighting to get money out of politics, for medicare for all, for free public colleges, for a new new deal, abolish private prisons, tax wall st. speculation, end the wars, etc. and move the US towards more of a social democracy.
Almost every single issue that i listed above polls extremely favorably with the american people.
Are there any republicans or anybody in the democratic establishment fighting for any of these populist policies? No, because the establishment doesn't represent the people, they represent the agendas of the super wealthy and corporate elite.
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Another irritant of mine. Why does one issue have to be tied to another? Trump tied potentially working on a solution to funding the border wall. We've all seen this game before...side A promises to work on something if the side B makes a major concession about another issue. Side B concedes, and side A never quite gets around to the issue that they agreed to address. Insert Democrats or Republicans into either role...both sides have done it to each other.
I think that's just a part of what compromising does. At least these two things are part of the same umbrella issue. The far right didn't want to give the dreamers a free pass to citizenship, the far left doesn't want the wall. In some cases the two issues have nothing to do with each other. Those battles are usually fought in spending bills.
My "common sense" tells me that people living in a country illegally and using the schools, hospitals, and institutions of that country, without paying into the costs of running those institutions, is a net drain on that country, not a net benefit to that country. Do you disagree with that? Go ahead rip my common sense apart.
My citing of the FAIR study was in response to B_Agates post that "Studies show that illegal immigrants pay more taxes than they receive in benefits, that they lead to economic growth." Again, where are those studies?
The Cato response suggests that the FAIR study in their opinion "overstates" the costs of illegals to the US, that it isn't as high as FAIR states.
No where in the Cato study, or in any study that I've seen, does it say that that there is an overall cost benefit to illegal immigrants living in the US, as B_Agate contends.
That was my point.
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I would not say that "Medicare For All" is extremely favorable with the American people. Why healthcare is such a difficult issue is that 70% to 80% (depending on the poll) of Americans are either happy or content with their current healthcare situation. Convincing them that their situation won't get worse as part of a macro heathcare solution is not an easy task. And it might be that it can't really be done.
This something new? They are everywhere.
Those people are trendy little followers. Nothing more.
Green haired people holding signs saying don't grab this pussy....women saying Kavanaugh might have even raped me at some point...because I lived in the northeast during that time.
Trump can say we have a border problem and then the trendy crowd will say he's racist.
Perception is everything and whatever seems trebdy at the time gets latched on by those shallow thinkers of the world. And there are lots.
It CANT be done.
Maybe in a tiny nation with a few hundred people it can...but in America with this population...no ****ing way.
Either you'll wait a year to be seen by your doctor...or you'll get shit service from a doctor who can't compete at the board game of operation.
America will say we need to start reducing the college for doctors bevayse we are now in dire need of doctors.
Soon they'll be graduating surgeons from the local community college after three years.
I don't know who above said free college but that insanity needs to stop.
No professor is going to work for free. Moreover if we start having robots being the professor so we don't pay them...then all those free degrees you can wipe your ass with them.
Why the **** do you think no employer asks to see someone's high school diploma. ?? Because everyone has one.
Make college free and or mandatory...guess what...nobody will give a shit because everyone has a degree.
There are only so many jobs to go around no matter how much industry is brought back..
You'll ultimately have a bunch of people pissing and moaning for $20 per hour dropping fries at burger king....because they have a degree.
No professor is going to work for free. Moreover if we start having robots being the professor so we don't pay them...then all those free degrees you can wipe your ass with them.
Why the **** do you think no employer asks to see someone's high school diploma. ?? Because everyone has one.
Make college free and or mandatory...guess what...nobody will give a shit because everyone has a degree.
There are only so many jobs to go around no matter how much industry is brought back..
You'll ultimately have a bunch of people pissing and moaning for $20 per hour dropping fries at burger king....because they have a degree.
Other wealthy nations ration healthcare based on priority/need, the US rations healthcare based on wealth. If you are very wealthy you love the US healthcare system .. for the rest of us .. it's extremely expensive, it bankrupts us, or we are priced out altogether.
Every single industrialized country has a form of government funded healthcare that covers all of its citizens. Those people hold on to it as a form of pride and it's political suicide for ANY politician to run against it. Nobody is trying to imitate the US free for all system.
Bernie Sander's medicare for all plan actually SAVES american tax payers $2T over 10 years. Taxes go up but the cost savings from not having to pay copays deductions and premiums is a net savings to 99% of taxpayers.
Most people don't know this though because the major media outlets in the US do not cover it or even talk about this (it's all propaganda and fear mongering).
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What polls are you seeing? Everything i see is the exact opposite of this. Healthcare is the #1 issue in the country among voters and it certainly isn't because people are happy or content with it.
Believe it our not I would love :
Free housing , I can now stay in my home and pay no taxes or mortgage ! Great. Let some one else pay for the schools, teachers, police, street repairs, fire protection! I love it , great!
Free Health care. I can go into any doctors office or hospital or pharmacy and not pay anything !
Let some one else pay the doctor, nurse, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies !
I love it , Great.
Free college for all ! I’m all for it ! While we are at it let’s not only free students of their loans but also pay them back what they already paid !
However, on further reflection, my temporary insanity with the the Socialist fantasy , is now gone !
I have come back to my senses !
I realize that the old song “ Every time it rains it rains Pennies from heaven ! “ never was true !
I will just have to get off my Duff and go to work to pay my bills, just as everyone else should have to !
Yes, that includes all you Socialist as well.
I do believe in Heaven, but it is not in this World !
Free housing , I can now stay in my home and pay no taxes or mortgage ! Great. Let some one else pay for the schools, teachers, police, street repairs, fire protection! I love it , great!
Free Health care. I can go into any doctors office or hospital or pharmacy and not pay anything !
Let some one else pay the doctor, nurse, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies !
I love it , Great.
Free college for all ! I’m all for it ! While we are at it let’s not only free students of their loans but also pay them back what they already paid !
However, on further reflection, my temporary insanity with the the Socialist fantasy , is now gone !
I have come back to my senses !
I realize that the old song “ Every time it rains it rains Pennies from heaven ! “ never was true !
I will just have to get off my Duff and go to work to pay my bills, just as everyone else should have to !
Yes, that includes all you Socialist as well.
I do believe in Heaven, but it is not in this World !
Oh yes it is, with many people. Concern that your heathcare situation might get WORSE as part of a macro solution. Or that Medicare might be bankrupt when you get to retirement, are both concerns that a person happy or content with their personal healthcare situation would have.
This is an issue which should be tied together, where a compromise was actually reasonable. The issue of 1.5 million illegals in the country, Dreamers and others, would have been addressed through amnesty in exchange for funding of a permanent barrier wall. They are linked because the lack of a physical barrier (Wall) is the main cause of illegals entering the US.
Estimates range between 10-20 million depending on your source.
You have to address the cause (lack of a wall), in order to limit unfettered access to anyone who wants to enter our country. The effect (perpetual flow of illegals) would then be addressed.
The bill you refer to would have granted amnesty to 1.5 million illegals, YES. BUT, it would have funded a 25$ Billion barrier Wall that would have kept out millions of future Democrat voters.This is the reason why not 1 Democrat voted for the compromise immigration bill that you refer to.
If you are an american you live in the wealthiest nation in the history of the world by a mile. Americans work harder, more efficiently, and more productively than anywhere else in the world. Most american's don't recognize or 'feel' this in their day to day lives though because most of the income generated over the last several decades has gone to the top 1%.
Why is it that if we try to institute some kind of safety net for the unlucky or the poor, or try to fight for better wages, or provide healthcare or any other populist social programs, it's immediately compared to something as extreme as soviet union russia or communist venezuela? There's a whole lot of room in the middle (much of scandinavia and europe are good examples of this).
We aren't socialist or communists. We just want an economy that works for everybody -- not just the wealthiest people in this country.
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“Spoken like a true ignorant American. I hope you never need public services from this day forward.”
Ignorant because I’d rather not have a governor that wants to raise taxes to extraordinary levels and leans towards the progressive socialist agenda? If that defines ignorant these days in your eyes, I guess I am. Real tolerant of you to never want me to have any public services anymore though. Should public service only apply to people that agree w/ your progressive “democratic” socialist agenda?
Ignorant because I’d rather not have a governor that wants to raise taxes to extraordinary levels and leans towards the progressive socialist agenda? If that defines ignorant these days in your eyes, I guess I am. Real tolerant of you to never want me to have any public services anymore though. Should public service only apply to people that agree w/ your progressive “democratic” socialist agenda?
Here's our top federal tax rates over the last 100 years .. were we less american during much of the 19th century when the rich were taxed 2-3 times as much? Or were we more american during the great depression, the great recession, and where the top tax rates are now (where the large majority of americans are struggling financially even in two worker households)?
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Are you referring to me as uneducated or ignorant in the same post where you imply you support Andrew Gillum?
Gillum, who has called DeSantis an anti-semite, while at the same time supporting groups that call for divestment and sanctions on Israel?
The guy who claims police and prisons are racist, and wants to abolish ICE.
The guy who as mayor of Tallahasse, took vacations to Costa Rica and other gifts from undercover FBI agents? Hotels, boat trips, tickets to Hamilton in NY?
I would think that most educated people look beyond the sole issue of higher taxes before they pull the lever in a voting booth. I know I do.
Your implication that I am ignorant or not educated based on a post on the internet is arrogant. Your support of a Radical Leftist is telling.
Andrew Gillum isn't an ideal candidate for the progressive movement on the left. He has his feet on both sides and takes PAC money so would have been beholden to his donors. However, he was much better than DeSantis who is a total corporate/establishment hack.
But the real point i wanted to highlight is that the people that many would consider "on the left" in this country are far more moderate relative to the history of the policies in the united states.
It's those who are on the right in this country now that are the radicals.
Did we have almost 50% of the country paying no federal income tax back then?
Chase,
Are you saying we don’t have “ Safty Nets “ in place now ?
Of course you should have the right to fight for higher wages ! But you must also offer your employer a service and if you price your service too high you may price yourself out of a job.
Supply and demand determine Wages ! Nothing else !
However, if their are more jobs than workers, wages rise ! The converse is also true !
There are all types of Social Programs , unfortunately they must be paid for ! As I stated above
How many and how much can any nation spend on such programs ?
Who pays and how do they get funded ?
SOCIAL is just what it states = Socialism !
A lot of the so called Social Programs were sold to the American People as something not rally social !
Like Social Security. We were forced to pay into a “ Pension “ fund. The Money we paid in was supposed
To be placed into “lock Box “ and not used for anything else ! We had to trust our government !
We paid with dollars backed by Gold ! Real solid money !
The Government Actuaries, never expected people to live much older than 62 at that time! And they were correct for a number of years.
People died and never collected a dime because their money was not really theirs, it was locked away ,
We went off the gold standard, inflation made our money whatever the government wanted it to be.
Then the lock box was broken and the government spent the money !
At retirement people are now paid with inflated dollars and are taxed on their retiement funds.
The ponzi scheme is now funded by taxing the young to pay back the Old !
To add insult to injury, Social Security is now consider an “ Entitlement “ !
Here is another point on Socialized Medicine. I know how it works because I lived in Germany,
Paid into that system, and have relatives that still live under that system.
History lesson:
After WW11 , Germany lost some many people in WWll that there were very few middle age to older men
Alive, their War losses were horrendous! The USA poured in billions of dollars to help rebuild and to defend
Germany.
The rebuilding created jobs, jobs, jobs, which resulted in FULL employment !
Everyone one worked , everyone paid in, few people took out ! Utopia !
Germans stopped having large families , today the population is aging, Refugees have flooded
Into the country and are adding a Burden upon the Social Programs.
The cost for the programs are rising and a middle class working German is paying in about 40%
Tax rate. On top of that their is a VAT tax of about 18 %. Social programs grow and get costly !
The waits for major medical procedures are getting longer and longer.
While the systems is still working , it is also deteriorating and many people who could afford it are now paying For supplemental insurance !
Socialized Medicine declines as more and more people use it, and fewer and fewer people are
Available to,pay into the system!
The best solution is lower taxes, a growing economy, full employment, employer based health care, large 401 Ks, and yes safty nets for the sick and disabled !
Are you saying we don’t have “ Safty Nets “ in place now ?
Of course you should have the right to fight for higher wages ! But you must also offer your employer a service and if you price your service too high you may price yourself out of a job.
Supply and demand determine Wages ! Nothing else !
However, if their are more jobs than workers, wages rise ! The converse is also true !
There are all types of Social Programs , unfortunately they must be paid for ! As I stated above
How many and how much can any nation spend on such programs ?
Who pays and how do they get funded ?
SOCIAL is just what it states = Socialism !
A lot of the so called Social Programs were sold to the American People as something not rally social !
Like Social Security. We were forced to pay into a “ Pension “ fund. The Money we paid in was supposed
To be placed into “lock Box “ and not used for anything else ! We had to trust our government !
We paid with dollars backed by Gold ! Real solid money !
The Government Actuaries, never expected people to live much older than 62 at that time! And they were correct for a number of years.
People died and never collected a dime because their money was not really theirs, it was locked away ,
We went off the gold standard, inflation made our money whatever the government wanted it to be.
Then the lock box was broken and the government spent the money !
At retirement people are now paid with inflated dollars and are taxed on their retiement funds.
The ponzi scheme is now funded by taxing the young to pay back the Old !
To add insult to injury, Social Security is now consider an “ Entitlement “ !
Here is another point on Socialized Medicine. I know how it works because I lived in Germany,
Paid into that system, and have relatives that still live under that system.
History lesson:
After WW11 , Germany lost some many people in WWll that there were very few middle age to older men
Alive, their War losses were horrendous! The USA poured in billions of dollars to help rebuild and to defend
Germany.
The rebuilding created jobs, jobs, jobs, which resulted in FULL employment !
Everyone one worked , everyone paid in, few people took out ! Utopia !
Germans stopped having large families , today the population is aging, Refugees have flooded
Into the country and are adding a Burden upon the Social Programs.
The cost for the programs are rising and a middle class working German is paying in about 40%
Tax rate. On top of that their is a VAT tax of about 18 %. Social programs grow and get costly !
The waits for major medical procedures are getting longer and longer.
While the systems is still working , it is also deteriorating and many people who could afford it are now paying For supplemental insurance !
Socialized Medicine declines as more and more people use it, and fewer and fewer people are
Available to,pay into the system!
The best solution is lower taxes, a growing economy, full employment, employer based health care, large 401 Ks, and yes safty nets for the sick and disabled !
So tell me who has been trashing buildings, setting fires, assaulting people who are out to dinner with their families, since Trump was elected?
The party of tolerance? The radical right?
As a good friend of mine used to say, "pull down your pants, your voice is muffled."
The Economist's ranking of the world's democracies is out.
The good news is that the United States is in the top 25!
http://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438...yI35o8M63Nch3OS9gmB1K43subL-VNom8MAkDERXDPw_Y
The good news is that the United States is in the top 25!
http://pages.eiu.com/rs/753-RIQ-438...yI35o8M63Nch3OS9gmB1K43subL-VNom8MAkDERXDPw_Y
By default, Illegal immigrants pay every tax that a citizen does, save for income tax, Medicaid, and SSI. The IRS readily admits that some illegal immigrants do pay income tax, Medicaid, and SSI in an effort to bolster their argument that they are a drain on society.
What the IRS cannot account for is illegal immigrants who may be making income tax, Medicaid, and SSI payments under the names of family members or some else via stolen identities.
So to my common sense, neither one of you are right, because no one can really get all of the information to prove either one of your points.
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