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It is amazing to me how staunch supporters of either side are willing to believe everything they come across just to support a side. Here in FL if you had (R) behind your name the sentiment was Andrew Gillum wanted to implement a state income tax. If you live in FL you know there are no state income taxes and it takes an act from God himself to get it through the state constitution. Yet the day after the election some of those right leaning people admit they were wrong. It just goes to show you how many people vote without educating themselves or they choose to be ignorant.The Cato Institute points out all of the flaws of the FAIR study that you're quoting as fact. You can read it here: https://www.cato.org/blog/fairs-fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-study-fatally-flawed.
I did some digging into this, and only could find right leaning sites pointing back to a message board post that was deleted that claimed she married her brother to get a green card, yet no one can prove that the "brother" is really her brother. And the woman you're talking about was never arrested for immigration fraud.
I would like to believe that the majority of the people here are too intelligent to fall for all of the crap that comes out of the mouths of politicians, both Democrat and Republican. If you're a Republican and not looking at the Democratic point of view, and vice versa, and then drawing your own opinion on the topic, you're not educating yourself. A lot of political viewpoints on both sides can be ripped apart with common sense.
Spoken like a true ignorant American. I hope you never need public services from this day forward.Whatever kept that socialist out of the governor’s mansion works for me, as long as it was legal.
Wow, so now you are ignorant if you are against increasing the socialist tendencies in our government system? Spoken like a true intolerant lefty.Spoken like a true ignorant American. I hope you never need public services from this day forward.
You managed to get that from my reply? Continued to be impressed how you people eat, $hit and breath your dogma.Wow, so now you are ignorant if you are against increasing the socialist tendencies in our government system? Spoken like a true intolerant lefty.
I guess you need to explain the deep inner meaning of your reply since, on the surface, it appears that you called someone ignorant for being happy a socialist lost an election in his state.You managed to get that from my reply? Continued to be impressed how you people eat, $hit and breath your dogma.
It is amazing to me how staunch supporters of either side are willing to believe everything they come across just to support a side. Here in FL if you had (R) behind your name the sentiment was Andrew Gillum wanted to implement a state income tax. If you live in FL you know there are no state income taxes and it takes an act from God himself to get it through the state constitution. Yet the day after the election some of those right leaning people admit they were wrong. It just goes to show you how many people vote without educating themselves or they choose to be ignorant.
And both sides frustrate me with immigration. Neither side really wants an answer. Both sides are aware that enacting a solution will give the other side a club to beat them with if things don't work. Neither side wants to piss off their corporate donors, as the both sides have donors that benefit from cheap labor.
The fact you keep calling any politician in this country a straight up socialist means you'll never get it.happy a socialist lost an election in his state.
Point taken. Change it to "a politician with overtly greater socialist tendencies than a typical American politician".The fact you keep calling any politician in this country a straight up socialist means you'll never get it.
Aside from Soros, and Hollywood you have Bloomberg,Zuckerberg,Musk,Gates ect ectDeadIrishPoet-
As to spending -
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/27/koc...nd-400-million-in-midterm-election-cycle.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/27/us/politics/kochs-plan-to-spend-900-million-on-2016-campaign.html
No idea how much 'hollywood' spends.
But yes, we need to get it ALL out of politics.
How does my response on taxes make no sense? If you are doing an analysis of how people in an income bracket are affected, you include the effect of lost deductions. So saying that they lost deductions doesn't refute that the top 1% got 83% of the benefits. And what does working for a rich man or broke gov't have to do with anything? The simple fact is that the tax cut which is exploding the deficit is giving 5/6 of its benefits to the richest 1% while ALL of us are responsible for the loans that pay for it. And as to who pays taxes, in 2016 (most recent I could find) the top 1% paid just under 40% of all taxes. Much less than the 83% benefit.
On immigration, see binhamin above, or for an older analysis, J. Lipman, Francine, J. (Spring 2006). "Taxing illegal Immigrants: Separate, Unequal and Without Representation". The Tax Lawyer. SSRN 881584.
As to what Obama inherited, I have to laugh. There was a republican president and congress from 2001-2007, then a republican president and democratic congress from 2007-2008. So how was a recession that began in dec 2007 the democrats fault? It was the result of deregulation (by republicans) that led to out of control speculation and the real estate bubble. And you are confusing debt and deficit. Debt is the total we owe, deficit is how much we have to borrow in a given year (sort of). In Obama's first year the deficit was 1.4 trillion. In his last it was 0.585 trillion. So it was cut by more than half. In 2018, trump's second year, it was 0.779 trillion, and the estimate for 2019 (in the gov'ts own budget) is 0.984 trillion.
As to healthcare, the ACA is not perfect, but it has given coverage to tens of millions of americans. I'd say that is an improvement. But please, tell us how the democrats are going to screw it up even more when they haven't put forward a plan to change things yet, and couldn't pass anything because republicans control the senate and presidency.
When Trump proposed a program that protected the dreamers, going against many in his own party, and the liberals didn't embrace it, you knew right then that neither party has much interest in bringing this issue to a solution. Which is really what their job is. Very disappointing. And the public seems impotent to do anything about it.
When Trump proposed a program that protected the dreamers, going against many in his own party, and the liberals didn't embrace it, you knew right then that neither party has much interest in bringing this issue to a solution. Which is really what their job is. Very disappointing. And the public seems impotent to do anything about it.
I think that's just a part of what compromising does. At least these two things are part of the same umbrella issue. The far right didn't want to give the dreamers a free pass to citizenship, the far left doesn't want the wall. In some cases the two issues have nothing to do with each other. Those battles are usually fought in spending bills.Another irritant of mine. Why does one issue have to be tied to another? Trump tied potentially working on a solution to funding the border wall. We've all seen this game before...side A promises to work on something if the side B makes a major concession about another issue. Side B concedes, and side A never quite gets around to the issue that they agreed to address. Insert Democrats or Republicans into either role...both sides have done it to each other.
My "common sense" tells me that people living in a country illegally and using the schools, hospitals, and institutions of that country, without paying into the costs of running those institutions, is a net drain on that country, not a net benefit to that country. Do you disagree with that? Go ahead rip my common sense apart.The Cato Institute points out all of the flaws of the FAIR study that you're quoting as fact. You can read it here: https://www.cato.org/blog/fairs-fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-study-fatally-flawed.
A lot of political viewpoints on both sides can be ripped apart with common sense.
I would not say that "Medicare For All" is extremely favorable with the American people. Why healthcare is such a difficult issue is that 70% to 80% (depending on the poll) of Americans are either happy or content with their current healthcare situation. Convincing them that their situation won't get worse as part of a macro heathcare solution is not an easy task. And it might be that it can't really be done.After reading the last few pages of this thread, it seems people on this site feel what we already know: that both parties aren't representing their constituents.
We don't live in a democracy, we live in an oligarchy. Which is why we need to get private money out of politics and move towards public funding. There's a movement called the wolf-pac that is fighting/advocating for just that. There's also a movement left of the democratic party called the justice democrats (and several others like it) who are fighting to get money out of politics, for medicare for all, for free public colleges, for a new new deal, abolish private prisons, tax wall st. speculation, end the wars, etc. and move the US towards more of a social democracy.
Almost every single issue that i listed above polls extremely favorably with the american people.
Are there any republicans or anybody in the democratic establishment fighting for any of these populist policies? No, because the establishment doesn't represent the people, they represent the agendas of the super wealthy and corporate elite.
This something new? They are everywhere.It is amazing to me how staunch supporters of either side are willing to believe everything they come across just to support a side. Here in FL if you had (R) behind your name the sentiment was Andrew Gillum wanted to implement a state income tax. If you live in FL you know there are no state income taxes and it takes an act from God himself to get it through the state constitution. Yet the day after the election some of those right leaning people admit they were wrong. It just goes to show you how many people vote without educating themselves or they choose to be ignorant.
It CANT be done.I would not say that "Medicare For All" is extremely favorable with the American people. Why healthcare is such a difficult issue is that 70% to 80% (depending on the poll) of Americans are either happy or content with their current healthcare situation. Convincing them that their situation won't get worse as part of a macro heathcare solution is not an easy task. And it might be that it can't really be done.
It CANT be done.
Maybe in a tiny nation with a few hundred people it can...but in America with this population...no ****ing way.
Either you'll wait a year to be seen by your doctor...or you'll get shit service from a doctor who can't compete at the board game of operation.
America will say we need to start reducing the college for doctors bevayse we are now in dire need of doctors.
Soon they'll be graduating surgeons from the local community college after three years.
I would not say that "Medicare For All" is extremely favorable with the American people. Why healthcare is such a difficult issue is that 70% to 80% (depending on the poll) of Americans are either happy or content with their current healthcare situation. Convincing them that their situation won't get worse as part of a macro heathcare solution is not an easy task. And it might be that it can't really be done.
You are smoking some good stuff. Did you get it for free?Other wealthy nations ration healthcare based on priority/need, the US rations healthcare based on wealth. If you are very wealthy you love the US healthcare system .. for the rest of us .. it's extremely expensive, it bankrupts us, or we are priced out altogether.
Every single industrialized country has a form of government funded healthcare that covers all of its citizens. Those people hold on to it as a form of pride and it's political suicide for ANY politician to run against it. Nobody is trying to imitate the US free for all system.
Bernie Sander's medicare for all plan actually SAVES american tax payers $2T over 10 years. Taxes go up but the cost savings from not having to pay copays deductions and premiums is a net savings to 99% of its citizens.
Most people don't know this though because the major media outlets in the US do not cover it or even talk about this (it's all propaganda and fear mongering).
Oh yes it is, with many people. Concern that your heathcare situation might get WORSE as part of a macro solution. Or that Medicare might be bankrupt when you get to retirement, are both concerns that a person happy or content with their personal healthcare situation would have.What polls are you seeing? Everything i see is the exact opposite of this. Healthcare is the #1 issue in the country among voters and it certainly isn't because people are happy or content with it.
This is an issue which should be tied together, where a compromise was actually reasonable. The issue of 1.5 million illegals in the country, Dreamers and others, would have been addressed through amnesty in exchange for funding of a permanent barrier wall. They are linked because the lack of a physical barrier (Wall) is the main cause of illegals entering the US.Another irritant of mine. Why does one issue have to be tied to another? Trump tied potentially working on a solution to funding the border wall. We've all seen this game before...side A promises to work on something if the side B makes a major concession about another issue. Side B concedes, and side A never quite gets around to the issue that they agreed to address. Insert Democrats or Republicans into either role...both sides have done it to each other.
Believe it our not I would love :
Free housing , I can now stay in my home and pay no taxes or mortgage ! Great. Let some one else pay for the schools, teachers, police, street repairs, fire protection! I love it , great!
Free Health care. I can go into any doctors office or hospital or pharmacy and not pay anything !
Let some one else pay the doctor, nurse, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies !
I love it , Great.
Free college for all ! I’m all for it ! While we are at it let’s not only free students of their loans but also pay them back what they already paid !
However, on further reflection, my temporary insanity with the the Socialist fantasy , is now gone !
I have come back to my senses !
I realize that the old song “ Every time it rains it rains Pennies from heaven ! “ never was true !
I will just have to get off my Duff and go to work to pay my bills, just as everyone else should have to !
Yes, that includes all you Socialist as well.
I do believe in Heaven, but it is not in this World !
If you are an american you live in the wealthiest nation in the history of the world by a mile. Americans work harder, more efficiently, and more productively than anywhere else in the world. It's built into who we are as a people.
Why is it that if we try to institute some kind of safety net for the unlucky or the poor, or try to fight for better wages, or provide healthcare or any other populist policies, or social programs, it's immediately compared to something as extreme as soviet union russia or communist venezuela? There's a whole lot of room in the middle (much of scandinavia and europe are good examples of where people are happier, have a better standard of living, every single citizen is covered with healthcare, etc.).
We aren't socialist or communists -- we just want an economy that works for everybody, not just the wealthiest people in this country.
“Spoken like a true ignorant American. I hope you never need public services from this day forward.”
Ignorant because I’d rather not have a governor that wants to raise taxes to extraordinary levels and leans towards the progressive socialist agenda? If that defines ignorant these days in your eyes, I guess I am. Real tolerant of you to never want me to have any public services anymore though. Should public service only apply to people that agree w/ your progressive “democratic” socialist agenda?
Are you referring to me as uneducated or ignorant in the same post where you imply you support Andrew Gillum?It is amazing to me how staunch supporters of either side are willing to believe everything they come across just to support a side. Here in FL if you had (R) behind your name the sentiment was Andrew Gillum wanted to implement a state income tax. If you live in FL you know there are no state income taxes and it takes an act from God himself to get it through the state constitution. Yet the day after the election some of those right leaning people admit they were wrong. It just goes to show you how many people vote without educating themselves or they choose to be ignorant.
Are you referring to me as uneducated or ignorant in the same post where you imply you support Andrew Gillum?
Gillum, who has called DeSantis an anti-semite, while at the same time supporting groups that call for divestment and sanctions on Israel?
The guy who claims police and prisons are racist, and wants to abolish ICE.
The guy who as mayor of Tallahasse, took vacations to Costa Rica and other gifts from undercover FBI agents? Hotels, boat trips, tickets to Hamilton in NY?
I would think that most educated people look beyond the sole issue of higher taxes before they pull the lever in a voting booth. I know I do.
Your implication that I am ignorant or not educated based on a post on the internet is arrogant. Your support of a Radical Leftist is telling.
It's those who are on the right in this country now that are the radicals.
Here's our top federal tax rates over the last 100 years .. were we less american during much of the 19th century when the rich were taxed 2-3 times as much?
So tell me who has been trashing buildings, setting fires, assaulting people who are out to dinner with their families, since Trump was elected?Andrew Gillum isn't an ideal candidate for the progressive movement on the left. He has his feet on both sides and takes PAC money so would have been beholden to his donors. However, he was much better than DeSantis who is a total corporate/establishment hack.
But the real point i wanted to highlight is that the people that many would consider "on the left" in this country are far more moderate relative to the history of the policies in the united states.
It's those who are on the right in this country now that are the radicals.
But the real point i wanted to highlight is that the people that many would consider "on the left" in this country are far more moderate relative to the history of the policies in the united states.
It's those who are on the right in this country now that are the radicals.
My "common sense" tells me that people living in a country illegally and using the schools, hospitals, and institutions of that country, without paying into the costs of running those institutions, is a net drain on that country, not a net benefit to that country. Do you disagree with that? Go ahead rip my common sense apart.
My citing of the FAIR study was in response to B_Agates post that "Studies show that illegal immigrants pay more taxes than they receive in benefits, that they lead to economic growth." Again, where are those studies?
The Cato response suggests that the FAIR study in their opinion "overstates" the costs of illegals to the US, that it isn't as high as FAIR states.
No where in the Cato study does it say that that there is an overall cost benefit to illegal immigrants living in the US, as B_Agate contend