Did Kelly really leave the program in better shape than Weis?

[john0gaunt]

You only have one damn defense player on your list !!! Kelly inherited a team with no defense !!!

Wikipedia only lists the off roster. Another poster pointed that out and I added the def players:
M. Teo
Harrison Smith
Robert Blanton
Zeke Motta
Darrin Walls
Kona Schwenke
Darius Fleming
Prince Shembo
KLM

He inherited Manti, Smith, and KLM. The only players I list are the NFL drafted. So, 9 players on D.

 

[BodiTheGreat]

Yes, I'm sure I'll have more questions as to how you came to bone-headed conclusions.

You are still comparing the known with the unknown. How can you compare the finished careers of all the guys you have been listing to the careers of guys who have not yet had one? The verdict isn't even close to being in on lots of guys. Players like Kyren Williams and JOK would have been foolishly dismissed outright if this thread were created several years ago. You are just guessing based on recruiting rankings, which are fallible, especially when talking about relatively small sample sizes. Who knows, all of our four stars could be busts and all our three stars could be studs. We have to wait and see how it all plays out to know for sure how good these guys really are at the college level.

Even if you want to treat recruiting rankings like Gospel, it's far from clear cut who is inheriting better talent. Arguably it's Freeman.

Average Recruiting Ranking Kelly Inherited : 11.5
Average Recruiting Ranking Freeman Inherited : 10.2 (Subject to change, based on current rankings)

Also, you aren't even looking at it from the proper perspective. Where is the context and nuance? A roster is not just a collection of random individuals that can be crammed together and called a team. A good roster is a team with an identity, with players who match a certain makeup and skill-set that fit into a winning philosophy. I want good fits for a good system. Weis built a lousy system and didn't even bother developing depth. There's a reason why Cincinnati does so well without top-end talent.

And all of this is only looking at it from the vantage point of raw personnel. We're not even talking about all the other factors that are conducive to having a successful program. A winning culture that Kelly built for example. Notre Dame is a much easier sell right now than 12 years ago. If you are so fixated on recruiting then you should be happy with what Kelly is handing over, as winning 10+ games a year and making playoffs bodes much better for future recruiting than trying to convince kids to come play for an overrated .500 teaih had nse

Wikipedia only lists the off roster. Another poster pointed that out and I added the def players:
M. Teo
Harrison Smith
Robert Blanton
Zeke Motta
Darrin Walls
Kona Schwenke
Darius Fleming
Prince Shembo
KLM

He inherited Manti, Smith, and KLM. The only players I list are the NFL drafted. So, 9 players on D.

The Irish defense had no depth like they do now.

 

[twalsh]

So we agree, one could argue it's Freeman and one could argue it was Kelly.

That's really the point of the thread.

But if I hand you a team with 4 and 5* talent all over the field in every skill position, plus 8 linemen that were drafted into the NFL, all you need to do is recruit and coach up 4 or 5 for depth, that isn't such a bad deal. BTW Kelly did complain about them.

Also, in Freeman's PC, he mentions that he needs to recruit the kind of talented players that would take the team to the next level. So, maybe the talent level of the team is more important than you understand it to be.

Wait a minute, are you suggesting that there's any comparison at all to the program Kelly took over and the program Freeman is taking over?

 

[john0gaunt]

Wait a minute, are you suggesting that there's any comparison at all to the program Kelly took over and the program Freeman is taking over?

See thread title.

 

[BodiTheGreat]

See thread title.

6 and 6 vs 11 and 1. Simple math, my friend.

 

[r2p2]

New era. Enjoy the Era of Good Feeling

The players seem inspired and motivated.

Just go with it. The other guy just found a better wardrobe match, his new attire color scheme matches his complexion.

 

[twalsh]

See thread title.

I can only assume that you were not an ND fan or follower back in 2009, and this is some sort of research project. Because if you were a fan or follower back then, you'd easily know how insane your premise is.

 

[john0gaunt]

New era. Enjoy the Era of Good Feeling

The players seem inspired and motivated.

Just go with it. The other guy just found a better wardrobe match, his new attire color scheme matches his complexion.

I'm with you.

But I'm not bashing the previous guy. I'm rehabbing the one that came before...

 

[john0gaunt]

I can only assume that you were not an ND fan or follower back in 2009, and this is some sort of research project. Because if you were a fan or follower back then, you'd easily know how insane your premise is.

Compare the team Weis inherited from TW to the team Kelly inherited from Weis. Then compare that to the team Freeman inherited from Kelly.

There is no comparison. You can clearly see how insane you would need to be to argue against CW.

I'll freely admit, Kelly had more wins as a coach. But the thread title isn't who won more games. It's who left the program in better shape.

 

[mbd11]

I'm sorry my man. If you look on the interwebs, you'll find a number of sites that rate recruits coming out of HS. They are given "stars" based on their talent level and rated on their ability to succeed at the next level. Usually looking for 3-5 star players. The more stars, the better really. No clairvoyance needed.

Weis left Kelly Clausen, Crist, Teo, Rudolph, Eifert, Tate, Floyd, etc etc. The team was littered with 4 and 5 star talent.

Kelly left Freeman zero 5 star players. Zero.

If you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them.

Clausen and Tate turned pro. They never played for Kelly. Weis did leave some talent behind (as many of us have admitted repeatedly), and Kelly went 12-0 in 2012 with the upperclassmen being mostly former Weis recruits.

But the overall team is deeper and better now. Weis went 6-6 his last season, with Clausen and Tate being juniors and both having great seasons. He went 0-4 in November. I think his lousy S&C program probably had something to do with that.

 

[twalsh]

Compare the team Weis inherited from TW to the team Kelly inherited from Weis. Then compare that to the team Freeman inherited from Kelly.

There is no comparison. You can clearly see how insane you would need to be to argue against CW.

I'll freely admit, Kelly had more wins as a coach. But the thread title isn't who won more games. It's who left the program in better shape.

And the answer seems to be obvious to everybody but you.

 

[john0gaunt]

And the answer seems to be obvious to everybody but you.

This is the same group that was demanding MF be fired 6 weeks ago. So, you're basically saying you have no argument.

 

[john0gaunt]

Clausen and Tate turned pro. They never played for Kelly. Weis did leave some talent behind (as many of us have admitted repeatedly), and Kelly went 12-0 in 2012 with the upperclassmen being mostly former Weis recruits.

But the overall team is deeper and better now. Weis went 6-6 his last season, with Clausen and Tate being juniors and both having great seasons. He went 0-4 in November. I think his lousy S&C program probably had something to do with that.

As for W-L records of the 2 coaches for 5 years:
Weis 35-27
Kelly 24-19

Did Kelly contact Clausen and let him know he was going to be the starter? Or did he tell him he could compete for the job? Jimmy waited 10 days to declare after Weis was fired. I've never heard anything about Kelly contacting either Tate or Clausen.

Can we agree he should have?

 

[mbd11]

As for W-L records of the 2 coaches for 5 years:
Weis 35-27
Kelly 24-19

Did Kelly contact Clausen and let him know he was going to be the starter? Or did he tell him he could compete for the job? Jimmy waited 10 days to declare after Weis was fired. I've never heard anything about Kelly contacting either Tate or Clausen.

Can we agree he should have?

Notre Dame recognizes all of Kelly's wins. As for Tate and Clausen, I thought it was reasonable for them to turn pro in 2010. They both got drafted in the 2nd round. Why come back for one year under a new offensive system? So that was understandable IMO.

 

[twalsh]

As for W-L records of the 2 coaches for 5 years:
Weis 35-27
Kelly 24-19

Did Kelly contact Clausen and let him know he was going to be the starter? Or did he tell him he could compete for the job? Jimmy waited 10 days to declare after Weis was fired. I've never heard anything about Kelly contacting either Tate or Clausen.

Can we agree he should have?

Clausen was coming off a spectacular year in 2009. Why would there be any doubt as to whether he was going to be the starter if he came back?

 

[john0gaunt]

Clausen was coming off a spectacular year in 2009. Why would there be any doubt as to whether he was going to be the starter if he came back?

Well, we know Weis met with the players a week after he was fired as I posted earlier:

Center Eric Olsen said he was heartbroken to hear Weis was fired.
"It's tough for me with my personal relationship with Coach Weis," he said. "But I know he's going to be fine."
Tate said he and his family plan to meet with Weis on Friday about whether the junior should enter the NFL draft. Tate said quarterback Jimmy Clausen also plans to talk with Weis on Friday.

Did Kelly contact any of them? There is no evidence he did. Jimmy didn't declare until 3 or 4 days after his meeting with Weis. If he wasn't contacted or somehow assured of his position, of course he would leave.

Rocket mentioned on the Zorich podcast. Seemed to think Kelly's ego wouldn't let him work with elite QB's. After 12 years, he had zero start for him. Not that your opinion isn't more important the Rocket or Zorich.

 

[twalsh]

Did Kelly contact any of them? There is no evidence he did.

And no evidence that he didn't. Ergo, we have no clue whether as to whether he did or didn't. It sounds like you are arbitrarily choosing to believe he didn't.

 

[mirer03]

That's right, I'm going there.

Kelly inherited from Weis a team with (2) 5* QB's. (of which he developed neither)
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin

And Weis had recruited Manti who arrived for the 2010 season.

Kelly leaves MF a team with:
Jack Coan
Michael Mayer
?

It is clear the schedule watered down the last few seasons and does not compare with the earlier SOS. So, sure Kelly won lots of games. But when he had to play Michigan, Michigan State, Miami, usc, and a ranked Stanford in the same year, he lost 5 games.

Yes.

 

[IrishFanSam81]

I understand, you're confused.

Jimmy Clausen had one year of eligibility remaining. Kelly couldn't get him to stay.

I'm a big fan of Buchner, but Kelly was left Clausen, Crist, and Rees.

Listen, I'd love to hear the argument against my question. but shut up isn't it princess.

Kyle Hamilton and Kyren both have a year left and are both by far better than any player in the Weis era. If you’re gonna use Clausen I can use them.

 

[john0gaunt]

Kyle Hamilton and Kyren both have a year left and are both by far better than any player in the Weis era. If you’re gonna use Clausen I can use them.

Wow. Too easy.

I'll take Eifert, Rudolph, Manti, Tate, and Floyd over either.

 

[Zorich 88]

Compare the team Weis inherited from TW to the team Kelly inherited from Weis. Then compare that to the team Freeman inherited from Kelly.

There is no comparison. You can clearly see how insane you would need to be to argue against CW.

I'll freely admit, Kelly had more wins as a coach. But the thread title isn't who won more games. It's who left the program in better shape.

So, let me get this straight, the guy that got fired and run out of town, that guy left the program in better shape than the guy that left on his own accord and is now one of the highest paid coaches in College football????

 

[IrishFanSam81]

Wow. Too easy.

I'll take Eifert, Rudolph, Manti, Tate, and Floyd over either.

That’s cause you’re terrible at evaluating talent.

 

[tbonesays]

So, let me get this straight, the guy that got fired and run out of town, that guy left the program in better shape than the guy that left on his own accord and is now one of the highest paid coaches in College football????

Which team would you rather coach?

Hint: at the end Weis was moving Lineman to the Dline

 

[Zorich 88]

Which team would you rather coach?

Hint: at the end Weis was moving Lineman to the Dline

Of course Freeman is taking over the team in “better” shape.

 

[Golson5]

Mf is taking over a way better team and program. It's not even close.

 

[echowaker]

Wow. Too easy.

I'll take Eifert, Rudolph, Manti, Tate, and Floyd over either.

Only a fool would take any of them over Hamilton. None of the guys you mentioned were considered top 5 NFL picks.

 

[john0gaunt]

Only a fool would take any of them over Hamilton. None of the guys you mentioned were considered top 5 NFL picks.

Only a fool would take Hamilton over FIVE NFL first and second round picks. To include the number 1 defensive player of his class considered for Heisman and the top TE of his class along with a Fred Biletnikoff Award winner. Manti also played in bowl games and returned to play out his eligibility.

And those are only a partial list of the NINETEEN other NFL players inherited by Kelly.

Public school employees. SMDH.

 

[mbd11]

Only a fool would take Hamilton over FIVE NFL first and second round picks. To include the number 1 defensive player of his class considered for Heisman and the top TE of his class along with a Fred Biletnikoff Award winner. Manti also played in bowl games and returned to play out his eligibility.

And those are only a partial list of the NINETEEN other NFL players inherited by Kelly.

Public school employees. SMDH.

We only had 4 players drafted in 2010, 1 in 2011 (Rudolph) and 4 in 2012. We had 9 players drafted this past year. So while the talent at the top was good under Weis, we have a lot more depth nowadays.

 

[john0gaunt]

We only had 4 players drafted in 2010

OK. Not only did Kelly receive the top talent from Weis, they were all young and had multiple years of eligibility.

You're making my point for me. Thanks.

As for Hamilton being better, Smith and Tate are still playing at a high level in the league. 10 years later. Will Kyle play that long? I hope he does if he wants to, but it's not likely.

 

[Golson5]

OK. Not only did Kelly receive the top talent from Weis, they were all young and had multiple years of eligibility.

You're making my point for me. Thanks.

As for Hamilton being better, Smith and Tate are still playing at a high level in the league. 10 years later. Will Kyle play that long? I hope he does if he wants to, but it's not likely.

9 players drafted in 3 years after Weis left.

Your a little confused here. 9 in 3 years is a terrible number and shows how we had no depth of talent

 

[john0gaunt]

9 players drafted in 3 years after Weis left.

I am only listing players drafted into NFL. I have left out UFA's to make it easier for you and the Kelly fans.

Jimmy Clausen
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo
Harrison Smith
Robert Blanton
Zeke Motta
Darrin Walls
Kona Schwenke
Darius Fleming
Prince Shembo
KLM
Chris Watt
Trevor Robinson
Zach Martin
Mike Golic

Eifert, Rudolph, Tate, and Smith are still playing at a high level in the NFL. Over 12 years after Weis.

Freeman inherited Kyle Hamilton. Oops, no he didn't.

 

[Golson5]

I am only listing players drafted into NFL. I have left out UFA's to make it easier for you and the Kelly fans.

Jimmy Clausen
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo
Harrison Smith
Robert Blanton
Zeke Motta
Darrin Walls
Kona Schwenke
Darius Fleming
Prince Shembo
KLM
Chris Watt
Trevor Robinson
Zach Martin
Mike Golic

Eifert, Rudolph, Tate, and Smith are still playing at a high level in the NFL. Over 12 years after Weis.

Freeman inherited Kyle Hamilton. Oops, no he didn't.

Clausen didnt play for Kelly. Either did Tate. You added in Golic LOL. Eifert isnt playing anymore. Either is Tate. Rudolph isnt playing at a high level anymore

Mayer
Patterson
Austin
Foskey
Tyree
Diggs
Lenzy
Alt
Fisher
Kristofic
Ademiola
Ademilola
MTA
Hart
Styles
Colzie
Buchner
Lacey
Bauer
Davis
Cross
Botelho
Watts
Henderson
Spindler
Kollie
Estime
Liufau

We can do this all day. I'm a bigger MF fan than I am a Kelly fan. Kelly is nothing to me

We're in a way better spot now than then. How about Kellys first recruiting class compared to this class coming in. Not even close.

 

[john0gaunt]

Clausen didnt play for Kelly. Either did Tate. You added in Golic LOL. Eifert isnt playing anymore

Mayer
Patterson
Austin
Foskey
Tyree
Diggs
Lenzy
Alt
Fisher
Kristofic
Ademiola
Ademilola
MTA
Hart
Styles
Colzie
Buchner
Lacey
Bauer
Davis
Cross
Botelho
Watts
Henderson
Spindler
Kollie
Estime
Liufau

We can do this all day. I'm a bigger MF fan than I am a Kelly fan. Kelly is nothing to me

We're in a way better spot now than then. How about Kellys first recruiting class compared to this class coming in. Not even close.

You're listing guys who "in your opinion" will go in the draft.

I listed guys who were drafted into the NFL and some are still playing. There's a difference.

The one part of the program that Kelly leaves behind that Weis did not you're alluding to?

Kelly left the program with Freeman.

But did Kelly hire Freeman, or did Jack? Who knows.

 

[Golson5]

You're listing guys who "in your opinion" will go in the draft.

I listed guys who were drafted into the NFL and some are still playing. There's a difference.

The one part of the program that Kelly leaves behind that Weis did not you're alluding to?

Kelly left the program with Freeman.

But did Kelly hire Freeman, or did Jack? Who knows.

We could have the Alabama roster and none of those players would be drafted by the NFL at this point either.

These guys are more talented than those you mentioned. You also put in guys kelly never coached and also a guy who never played in the league

Your logic is flawed at best. Moreso moronic

Nice try though

 

[mbd11]

OK. Not only did Kelly receive the top talent from Weis, they were all young and had multiple years of eligibility.

You're making my point for me. Thanks.

As for Hamilton being better, Smith and Tate are still playing at a high level in the league. 10 years later. Will Kyle play that long? I hope he does if he wants to, but it's not likely.

We also only had one player drafted in 2009 (David Bruton - 4th round).

 

[john0gaunt]

We also only had one player drafted in 2009 (David Bruton - 4th round).

But you continue making my point that Weis left Kelly a young well stocked incredibly talented roster with NFL players at every position.

An earlier poster mentioned the 06-07 defense as proof of Weis problems. Those would be TW players and the roster was definitely thin. But that solidifies the Weis argument. We can agree TW allowed recruiting to fall, and left Weis with a thin roster. But as shown by the team Weis left Kelly, he had rebuilt that roster to include incredible talents across the board.

It's true that we can't say how many of the current team will shine at the level of the final Weis roster, but my point is that it's arguable. That's all.

I maintain the only advantage Kelly left behind was Marcus Freeman. And he was likely hired not by Kelly, but in spite of Kelly. Freeman's success is not a sure thing. He appears to be a first time HC and a players coach. As was Weis.

 

[hvillebill]

You would think that from this thread Charlie Weis was just this side of Frank Leahy.

It's readily apparent to me that folks have a short memory. This board was about 50/50 (at best) in keeping/firing him on almost a yearly basis and now some of those same folks brag about how he left the program in better shape than Brian Kelly?

If you don't like how CK left, I understand that, but to talk as though Weis did a better job than Kelly in building up the program is almost unfathomable.

 

[Golson5]

But you continue making my point that Weis left Kelly a young well stocked incredibly talented roster with NFL players at every position.

An earlier poster mentioned the 06-07 defense as proof of Weis problems. Those would be TW players and the roster was definitely thin. But that solidifies the Weis argument. We can agree TW allowed recruiting to fall, and left Weis with a thin roster. But as shown by the team Weis left Kelly, he had rebuilt that roster to include incredible talents across the board.

It's true that we can't say how many of the current team will shine at the level of the final Weis roster, but my point is that it's arguable. That's all.

I maintain the only advantage Kelly left behind was Marcus Freeman. And he was likely hired not by Kelly, but in spite of Kelly. Freeman's success is not a sure thing. He appears to be a first time HC and a players coach. As was Weis.

Yeah this guy is just clueless

Good luck with that

 

[twalsh]

Yeah this guy is just clueless

Good luck with that

They say no man is an island. But Gaunt is close.

 

[john0gaunt]

If you don't like how CK left, I understand that

I've tried to refrain from bashing Kelly, that isn't what this thread is about. I didn't mention Declan, the vacated wins, the drugs and guns driving around South Bend, or the entire RB squad tossed out of school, or the starting QB suspended for a year.

Just making the point that it can be argued Weis left the program in better shape. Your response that you've never heard such a thing and can't fathom the thought, really isn't an argument.