Did Kelly really leave the program in better shape than Weis?

[thehellyousay]

No facts from anyone, just opinions so far. Who on Kelly's roster is equal to any one of these players?

Jimmy Clausen
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo

KH is great, but he's going to the league.

he didn't have Clausen, first of all, and Dayne Crist? I'll take Coan or Buchner, or Pyne for that matter.

Cierre Wood is a child murderer (alleged), but even on the field, Kyren is better;
Kyren - 2 seasons 31 TDs, 2800+ Yds from scrimmage, 78 rec.
Wood - in 3 seasons, 18 TD, 2800+ scrimmage yards, 52 rec.

I'll give you Floyd, but Logan Diggs, Estime and Tyree have yet to really get their chance

2009:

.500, team
4 losses against unranked opponents
finished unranked for the 3rd consecutive year
lost to USC 8 consecutive times
lost to Navy for the second time in 3 years

2021:
11-1, only loss to playoff team
42 consecutive wins against unranked opponents, longest streak in the country
beat USC 4th time in a row, and 8-3 overall
last 5 years, ranked 11,5,12,5,5

just no contest, man

I will take your point that Weis was better at recruiting can't miss skill players, or at least getting in the mix - with the great foundation in place, hopefully MF can start pulling those guys in again

 

[john0gaunt]

.500, team
4 losses against unranked opponents
finished unranked for the 3rd consecutive year
lost to USC 8 consecutive times
lost to Navy for the second time in 3 years

In Kelly's first few years, when he had to play Mich and Mich St, he went like 2-4 against them. At least the games that weren't vacated.

Kelly did well against usc, no doubt, but he never faced Pete C, or the drunk fool Sark. So, apples and oranges?

Yes, Kelly won more games the last few years, once he started playing mostly ACC teams. That's my point.

In Kelly's first year he lost to Navy and Tulsa.

But for the Kelly defense team, I'm not bashing Kelly necessarily. Just comparing him to Weis and saying it isn't as cut and dry.

 

[savvyandsassier]

OK, so now I am done giving you any sort of benefit of the doubt. You're just going to argue against anything and spin it your way to "win the argument." You're being ridiculous. Whatever, best of luck to you.

The OP is a complete lunatic, like a genuine nutter. Not just a hater, or a toxic fan, but someone who is guaranteed mentally unwell. This is not his first foray into this sort of wild talk. His previous hobbyhorse was that Jack Coan would never play a down, which he was weirdly emphatic about. Sometimes these guys, these eccentric characters are kind of fun. I don't find this one to be very charming. He just comes off like a mean, cranky, psycho....

Or he's just a troll. And he clearly wants the attention and the reaction, knowing full well himself how completely stupid what he's saying, but that it will get a reaction.....

Both are almost certainly true.

 

[stu4don]

Strength and Conditioning was in shambles under Weis.
No nutrition Program
No psych Program

Just no program. Spotty recruiting with not much development.

Not even close and yes, the wins and loses speak for themselves.

 

[Syd4ND]

Sadly, this isn't really an argument as you think it is.

When Kelly had to play Michigan, Mich St, Stanford, usc and Miami, and a ranked Utah, he lost 5 games.

But you're right and I am not arguing against, once Kelly had mostly ACC teams on his schedule, he won more games. Yay!

But three of the 6 you listed were wins. Miami, USC and Utah. Ranked Utah was a blowout.

 

[graceh90]

In Kelly's first year he lost to Navy and Tulsa.

With the team he inherited from Weis.

What is ND’s record against unranked teams in the last 5 years?

End of discussion

 

[john0gaunt]

But three of the 6 you listed were wins. Miami, USC and Utah. Ranked Utah was a blowout.

My point was that once Kelly got the new ACC schedule, he started winning his 10 games per year. Tougher schedules take more a toll on a team. While he beat Utah, he lost to Navy and Tulsa. And Mich and Mich St.

 

[twalsh]

Kelly wasn’t “left” with Clausen. Clausen was already a year older than his class and was probably always going pro after his third year. Crist with his five stars and two extra years of experience couldn’t even win out over a three star freshman like Rees with a minimal offer sheet.

Also a program/team is much more than who is a potential NFL talent. Its a team game and coaching is very important. As someone said there are more people than the best 8-10 players on the team. Kelly is leaving after a great four year run while Weis left after two six loss seasons. I have to believe Kelly developed players who are still on the roster better than Weis did before he left. There’s also program perception and the perception of ND has to be better.

Clausen's junior year might be the best year any QB at Notre Dame has ever had. He made the right decision to go when he was a hot commodity. Unfortunately it didn't work out in the end, but I doubt he questions the decision.

 

[r2p2]

well, after all the debate, the important takeaway is he left.

 

[HooDatGuy]

Clausen's junior year might be the best year any QB at Notre Dame has ever had. He made the right decision to go when he was a hot commodity. Unfortunately it didn't work out in the end, but I doubt he questions the decision.

He was so impressive that year, I thought for sure he was going to make it in the NFL. I’ll contend probably the most accurate QB to ever come through ND. Having Tate and Floyd didn’t hurt either.

 

[tbonesays]

No one said Weis couldn't recruit the skill positions well. Maybe if he had spread the love around to the OL and Defense he would have been more successful.

Half those guys you listed never even played for BK.

Clausen and Tate did not play for Kelly (what might have been?). But Weis gets credit for Floyd, Te'o, and Louis Nix (rip) among others.

We won't really know if Kelly left superior star power until 2023 when we see which recruits are playing.

Weis's players had a bad culture which Kelly fixed, it was probably his biggest accomplishment at the time.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Clausen's junior year might be the best year any QB at Notre Dame has ever had. He made the right decision to go when he was a hot commodity. Unfortunately it didn't work out in the end, but I doubt he questions the decision.

I don't know... didn't go too well for him in the NFL. I definitely disagree with that. Clausen is not even all that physically talented to begin with, he's overrated... But he was severely psychologically stunted to be trying to make it in the rough waters of the NFL the way he did, going pro early. Staying with BK and returning not only would have continued his development strictly as a player, but might have done a world of good for him sort of as a person, on the organic or holistic level or something.

He came into ND as a spoiled and sheltered kid. Talented, and willing to work hard, but otherwise severely lacking in overall psychological and character traits. And he continued to be totally spoiled and coddled and protected by Charlie Weis. Playing for Kelly or any other coach quite frankly might have been a difference-maker for him.

It's not just about a stat line, you gotta be able to play when you get there, and to handle shit.... And JC could not... he was not ready for the NFL AT ALL....

 

[echowaker]

In Kelly's first few years, when he had to play Mich and Mich St, he went like 2-4 against them. At least the games that weren't vacated.

Kelly did well against usc, no doubt, but he never faced Pete C, or the drunk fool Sark. So, apples and oranges?

Yes, Kelly won more games the last few years, once he started playing mostly ACC teams. That's my point.

In Kelly's first year he lost to Navy and Tulsa.

But for the Kelly defense team, I'm not bashing Kelly necessarily. Just comparing him to Weis and saying it isn't as cut and dry.

It's a landslide. Weis had his best seasons with players someone else brought in. Again, no one ever did less for more than ol charlie did.

 

[HooDatGuy]

I don't know... didn't go too well for him in the NFL. I definitely disagree with that. Clausen is not even all that physically talented to begin with, he's overrated... But he was severely psychologically stunted to be trying to make it in the rough waters of the NFL the way he did, going pro early. Staying with BK and returning not only would have continued his development strictly as a player, but might have done a world of good for him sort of as a person, on the organic or holistic level or something.

He came into ND as a spoiled and sheltered kid. Talented, and willing to work hard, but otherwise severely lacking in overall psychological and character traits. And he continued to be totally spoiled and coddled and protected by Charlie Weis. Playing for Kelly or any other coach quite frankly might have been a difference-maker for him.

It's not just about a stat line, you gotta be able to play when you get there, and to handle shit.... And JC could not... he was not ready for the NFL AT ALL....

I think he was extremely talented. To what you said, lack if leadership skills and average arm strength really did him in at the next level, but the accuracy was undeniable.

 

[88ND]

No one ever did less for more than Weis.

Did you mean no one ever did less WITH more than CW?

I'd say Gerry Faust has an argument.

 

[mbd11]

Weis did bring in more 5* recruits than Kelly, but that's about the only thing he did better. Overall, the program's in much better shape now.

 

[11NCs]

Kelly absolutely left ND in better shape but at least Weis wasn’t a quitter and gave his all to the university.

I'll take quitter Kelly for the past 12 years over incompetent Weis all day.

 

[mbd11]

My point was that once Kelly got the new ACC schedule, he started winning his 10 games per year. Tougher schedules take more a toll on a team. While he beat Utah, he lost to Navy and Tulsa. And Mich and Mich St.

Kelly's turnaround started after the 2016 debacle. He overhauled the coaching staff - brought in Elko (and Lea with him) on defense, and brought in Long on offense.

 

[savvyandsassier]

This thread is like that political tactic of, how does that go... of accusing your opponent of beating his wife. Or asking in a debate when did he stop beating his wife... I can't remember how that's supposed to go.

Just an absurd, obviously untrue suggestion, and just get it into the conversation so that you have to deny it....

And that's what I always associate BK haters with. Being good, fair-minded humanitarian men who would never stoop to some shit like that..... They give credit where credit is due!

 

[john0gaunt]

Weis did bring in more 5* recruits than Kelly, but that's about the only thing he did better. Overall, the program's in much better shape now.

But how much of that is due to the watered down ACC schedule? And no Pete C in LA.

 

[mrwigglesby21]

The OP is a complete lunatic, like a genuine nutter. Not just a hater, or a toxic fan, but someone who is guaranteed mentally unwell. This is not his first foray into this sort of wild talk. His previous hobbyhorse was that Jack Coan would never play a down, which he was weirdly emphatic about. Sometimes these guys, these eccentric characters are kind of fun. I don't find this one to be very charming. He just comes off like a mean, cranky, psycho....

Or he's just a troll. And he clearly wants the attention and the reaction, knowing full well himself how completely stupid what he's saying, but that it will get a reaction.....

Both are almost certainly true.

"eccentric characters are kind of fun"; pot meet kettle

 

[r2p2]

I'll take quitter Kelly for the past 12 years over incompetent Weis all day.

He had been trying to quit for sometime. That it took 12 years is the mystery. You must like living on the edge.

 

[john0gaunt]

His previous hobbyhorse was that Jack Coan would never play a down

Actually I said he would never start a game for ND. I fully expected him to play.

I didn't know the current HC had no interest in who would be ND QB at OSU in 2022.

 

[Kontiki09]

But how much of that is due to the watered down ACC schedule? And no Pete C in LA.

What was ND's SOS for the past 5 years, compared to Weis, Willingham, et. al.? Not trying to troll...genuinely curious. I think that'd be a fair stat that could be useful for this argument.

 

[savvyandsassier]

"eccentric characters are kind of fun"; pot meet kettle

I consider myself garrulous.... Not particularly eccentric.

 

[r2p2]

And ND fans might remember Rob Steiner, S&C staff. Well Clay Helton poached him from USC! Wish him well!

 

[HooDatGuy]

But how much of that is due to the watered down ACC schedule? And no Pete C in LA.

There is no truth to the idea that the ACC games have substantially hurt ND’s SOS. None. Zero. Zip. You got that? Here look for yourself.

NCAA College Football Strength of Schedule Rankings & Ratings

NCAA College Football Strength of Schedule Rankings & Ratings from TeamRankings.com, your source for NCAAF computer power rankings.

www.teamrankings.com

You’re wrong, so stop saying it.

 

[mbd11]

But how much of that is due to the watered down ACC schedule? And no Pete C in LA.

I don't think much. The ACC scheduling started in 2014. But Kelly's turnaround started in 2017, when Swarbrick forced him to overhaul the coaching staff after the 2016 season, if he wanted to keep his job.

And this year, the schedule looked tough on paper. We didn't expect FSU, USC and Stanford to all having losing records. And UNC was preseason Top 10 and went 6-6.

 

[john0gaunt]

What was ND's SOS for the past 5 years, compared to Weis, Willingham, et. al.? Not trying to troll...genuinely curious. I think that'd be a fair stat that could be useful for this argument.

Agreed. I'm way too lazy to do that research though. But using the eye test, surely we can agree that Mich, Mich St, and a PC coached usc are tougher than WF, NC, and a Helton usc.

 

[Kontiki09]

Agreed. I'm way too lazy to do that research though. But using the eye test, surely we can agree that Mich, Mich St, and a PC coached usc are tougher than WF, NC, and a Helton usc.

I did some research, and here are the numbers for Weis v. Kelly in their last 4 years of coaching:

Weis:

1. 05-06 --> 5th
2. 06-07 --> 27th
3. 07-08 --> 46th
4. 08-09 --> 57th

Kelly:

1. 21-22 --> 18th
2. 20-21 --> 7th
3. 19-20 --> 16th
4. 18-19 --> 13th

Kelly's average SOS: 13.5
Weis' average SOS: 33.75

I wasn't expecting that at all. Pretty crazy stat!

 

[Kontiki09]

Agreed. I'm way too lazy to do that research though. But using the eye test, surely we can agree that Mich, Mich St, and a PC coached usc are tougher than WF, NC, and a Helton usc.

I'm not sure I fully agree (a pete carroll coached USC though, ABSOLUTELY).

I think mentally those games are much harder for ND because there's so much history to them. For whatever reason, those games are usually a (1) slugfest or (2) pillow fight, with no in between, lol.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Actually I said he would never start a game for ND. I fully expected him to play.

I didn't know the current HC had no interest in who would be ND QB at OSU in 2022.

Well then carry on! You sir, have been besmirched!

So keep the lunacy going, you nut job... After all, all you did was adamantly insist like an at-least somewhat insane person that he would never start a game for ND, even though all signs absolutely pointed to him totally being the starter. And indeed he started every game....

And now you continue to carry on with this little BK-bashing campaign like a crank from central casting....

And so I continue to implore you guys, you won't be able to keep bashing BK indefinitely. It just won't work. You are clearly very much drug-addicted to online bashing, and BK admirably filled that role for you 12 long years, though I continue to insist that as soon as Book took over and we started really winning, it went to another, higher level... I guess Jeff Quinn's still on staff. You could always tear into that guy a little longer.... But that would be at the cost of this little mini-cult of staff unity that has sprung up overnight and must be maintained against all enemies and outsiders. BK's mediocre staff of cronies....

Maybe this thread will be the beginning of the turn... One of the most demented BK haters out there takes things to such an extreme of stupidity and nonsense, that the worm has finally started to turn, and a sort of healing process can begin for these.... bewildered ND fans.....

 

[john0gaunt]

I'm not sure I fully agree (a pete carroll coached USC though, ABSOLUTELY).

I think mentally those games are much harder for ND because there's so much history to them. For whatever reason, those games are usually a (1) slugfest or (2) pillow fight, with no in between, lol.

It was Harbaugh at Mich and Dantonio at Mich State.

But, your SOS research is legit. I will concede the SOS argument. I love this team, but I think I would still prefer the team Kelly inherited.

 

[HooDatGuy]

Actually I said he would never start a game for ND. I fully expected him to play.

I didn't know the current HC had no interest in who would be ND QB at OSU in 2022.

So in your warped brain. Kelly knew at the beginning of this season he was leaving for LSU and started Coan over Buchner because he had no interest in Buchner’s development.

Despite the fact that LSU didn’t even have a vacancy at the beginning of this season and it wasn’t clear that Ogeron would be out until half way through the season.

You are delusional.

 

[Patrirish]

He left it like he left it

he didn't have Clausen, first of all, and Dayne Crist? I'll take Coan or Buchner, or Pyne for that matter.

Cierre Wood is a child murderer (alleged), but even on the field, Kyren is better;
Kyren - 2 seasons 31 TDs, 2800+ Yds from scrimmage, 78 rec.
Wood - in 3 seasons, 18 TD, 2800+ scrimmage yards, 52 rec.

I'll give you Floyd, but Logan Diggs, Estime and Tyree have yet to really get their chance

2009:

.500, team
4 losses against unranked opponents
finished unranked for the 3rd consecutive year
lost to USC 8 consecutive times
lost to Navy for the second time in 3 years

2021:
11-1, only loss to playoff team
42 consecutive wins against unranked opponents, longest streak in the country
beat USC 4th time in a row, and 8-3 overall
last 5 years, ranked 11,5,12,5,5

just no contest, man

I will take your point that Weis was better at recruiting can't miss skill players, or at least getting in the mix - with the great foundation in place, hopefully MF can start pulling those guys in again

HE LEFT IT HOW HE LEFT IT !

WHAT’S DONE IS DONE !

NEXT !

 

[Kontiki09]

It was Harbaugh at Mich and Dantonio at Mich State.

But, your SOS research is legit. I will concede the SOS argument. I love this team, but I think I would still prefer the team Kelly inherited.

Meh - Harbaugh at Mich wasn't that troublesome for me until recently. Dantonio at Mich. State was a mixed bag as well. I get your overall point though, and while I don't agree, I for sure understand the points you're making.

I'd also be very curious to see how SOS is calculated, as it may not be completely objective.

 

[HDK]

Did you mean no one ever did less WITH more than CW?

I'd say Gerry Faust has an argument.

I think he meant less for more (pay).

 

[john0gaunt]

I get your overall point though

My real point is, that it's not so cut and dry. It's possible to argue he did not.

 

[TXNDFan88]

Look at the 06 and 07 Weiss Classes on D and ask yourself this question again.

 

[john0gaunt]

Look at the 06 and 07 Weiss Classes on D and ask yourself this question again.

I checked, and wow, that look like a problem.

But that isn't the team Weis left Kelly. The D Kelly inherited included KLM and Harrison Smith. And Manti.