Did Kelly really leave the program in better shape than Weis?

[Syd4ND]

1) This is mostly a pass stopping coverage? 2) Where are the DL aligned?
3) You say trips motion, so you mean 2x2 and a WR motions to become 3x1?
4) The free safety can rob. Is this one of the 3 deep defenders you’re counting?

No it's also good against RPO and run as the corner is keying through #2. So he can play much more as a force player outside in. The safeties (R/SS) are sitting at 7 yards so they are good second level in run support. Yes it's a 2x2 you can auto check vs 3x1. But vs motion it's harder to auto check. Therefore the Rover when in a deep alignment natural tendency is to roll and the SS is to invert. The problem is that leaves the WSLB in poor leverage vs back out and the front in poor gap integrity vs the run if he displaces. But if you want 4 vs 3 to the trips you have to move the rover.

 

[Syd4ND]

Still not getting a straight answer from you on whether or not you think blacks can coach football.

Seems you’re being purposely opaque.

Well. I have four on my staff. They are all great coaches. I'd consider one to be the best we have. How many are on your staff?

 

[Syd4ND]

In addition. The one I'm talking about has applied for numerous HC jobs. And despite great references and experience has never gotten one. I even knew inside people who told me his interview was outstanding. Gee I wonder why? So does that answer your question? And excuse me if I'm rooting for more Black HC in college football particularly at BIG programs. And hi-lighting it.

 

[Syd4ND]

No it's also good against RPO and run as the corner is keying through #2. So he can play much more as a force player outside in. The safeties (R/SS) are sitting at 7 yards so they are good second level in run support. Yes it's a 2x2 you can auto check vs 3x1. But vs motion it's harder to auto check. Therefore the Rover when in a deep alignment natural tendency is to roll and the SS is to invert. The problem is that leaves the WSLB in poor leverage vs back out and the front in poor gap integrity vs the run if he displaces. But if you want 4 vs 3 to the trips you have to move the rover.

DL alignment varies. But usually a Bullet, 4, minus, six, dbl bullet 2-2. 5-0-5 (3 man). I first learned the coverage from a guy I coached with at a JC who was LB coach at New Mexico with Rocky Long. It was a 3-3-5 coverage but we are adapting it to the 4-2-5. Which isn't really different coverage wise.

 

[john0gaunt]

Team cohesiveness and player perspective (as communicated by current and former players)

Center Eric Olsen said he was heartbroken to hear Weis was fired.

"It's tough for me with my personal relationship with Coach Weis," he said. "But I know he's going to be fine."

Tate said he and his family plan to meet with Weis on Friday about whether the junior should enter the NFL draft. Tate said quarterback Jimmy Clausen also plans to talk with Weis on Friday.

Can anyone tell me how many of Kelly's players were heartbroken and met with him a week after he resigned for advice? I think it's zero.

 

[FightingIrish44]

No it's also good against RPO and run as the corner is keying through #2. So he can play much more as a force player outside in. The safeties (R/SS) are sitting at 7 yards so they are good second level in run support. Yes it's a 2x2 you can auto check vs 3x1. But vs motion it's harder to auto check. Therefore the Rover when in a deep alignment natural tendency is to roll and the SS is to invert. The problem is that leaves the WSLB in poor leverage vs back out and the front in poor gap integrity vs the run if he displaces. But if you want 4 vs 3 to the trips you have to move the rover.

No it's also good against RPO and run as the corner is keying through #2. So he can play much more as a force player outside in. The safeties (R/SS) are sitting at 7 yards so they are good second level in run support. Yes it's a 2x2 you can auto check vs 3x1. But vs motion it's harder to auto check. Therefore the Rover when in a deep alignment natural tendency is to roll and the SS is to invert. The problem is that leaves the WSLB in poor leverage vs back out and the front in poor gap integrity vs the run if he displaces. But if you want 4 vs 3 to the trips you have to move the rover.

I’m not sure that I understand you. You’re saying the corners are playing a true cover 2 technique in that these are run first/force players, right? But you also have 3 deep safeties? So Motion to 3x1 means you check and weakside is no longer Cover 2? Corner now has #1 deep and WLB has back out?

Sounds like you’re a TCU 4-2-5 type team.

What you originally wrote with corner force, 4 DL, and 3 true deep safeties, you can’t keep two LB’s in the box vs 3x1 unless you check the coverage. So what would you check to? So to the 3 WR side, you have CB in the flat, deep safety rotates to deep third over the trips? I don’t know where the Rover and SS is aligned in your defense

 

[FightingIrish44]

DL alignment varies. But usually a Bullet, 4, minus, six, dbl bullet 2-2. 5-0-5 (3 man). I first learned the coverage from a guy I coached with at a JC who was LB coach at New Mexico with Rocky Long. It was a 3-3-5 coverage but we are adapting it to the 4-2-5. Which isn't really different coverage wise.

I’m not really familiar with that terminology other than 5-0-5. To me, playing Cover 2 with the CB’s and ILB’s, and three true deep safeties means its a drop 8 coverage or I guess you can get away with that vs 2x2 but that seems to be your problem haha

Could you clarify some of the alignments?

 

[Syd4ND]

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Hence going back to the beginning. When I was asked what I'm questioning by the buffoon. We can play 5 wheel (1/, 1/4, 1/2) with a wheeled CB playing flat. but then you lose the Rover to the backside. The Invert safeties play on the outside Eye of 2. If 1 and 2 go vertical they will work to the inside of 2. while the corner will funnel 1 and run with him. I don't use 6i and 4i etc. a 4 is inside shade of a tackle. 2 is head up on the guard. Minus is weak shade on the nose. They play RIPO. It's a read. A bullet is a 9 tech. But the alignment is cocked with the inside hand or foot depending on the shoulder of the tackle. Corners are not playing traditional cover 2. They are playing funnel flat. which means they sink and funnel 1 but will run with him unless 2 releases to the flat.

 

[HooDatGuy]

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Hence going back to the beginning. When I was asked what I'm questioning by the buffoon. We can play 5 wheel (1/, 1/4, 1/2) with a wheeled CB playing flat. but then you lose the Rover to the backside. The Invert safeties play on the outside Eye of 2. If 1 and 2 go vertical they will work to the inside of 2. while the corner will funnel 1 and run with him. I don't use 6i and 4i etc. a 4 is inside shade of a tackle. 2 is head up on the guard. Minus is weak shade on the nose. They play RIPO. It's a read. A bullet is a 9 tech. But the alignment is cocked with the inside hand or foot depending on the shoulder of the tackle. Corners are not playing traditional cover 2. They are playing funnel flat. which means they sink and funnel 1 but will run with him unless 2 releases to the flat.

Bud. You might be overthinking your sons Freshman football team just a tad. Focus on the basics.

 

[hvillebill]

Kelly absolutely left ND in better shape but at least Weis wasn’t a quitter and gave his all to the university.

You must have forgotten how Weis trashed ND after he was let go, even though he had a huge buyout that paid him millions.

 

[john0gaunt]

You must have forgotten how Weis trashed ND after he was let go, even though he had a huge buyout that paid him millions.

TBF. Weis did not go to another school and announce that he needed better players to compete for a NC.

Advantage: Weis

 

[mrwigglesby21]

I consider myself garrulous.... Not particularly eccentric.

Would you go so far as to say a garrulously sesquipedalian?

 

[tbonesays]

Exactly my point. Imagine being handed that level of talent then complaining that he needed his own guys.

KLM was a SR. Smith same. Floyd a JR. Not most/all.

"My guys" may go down as the worst thing ever said by an ND coach. Remember BK apologized for it

TBF. Weis did not go to another school and announce that he needed better players to compete for a NC.

Advantage: Weis

No Weis went to KU and said his players were crap.

If you compare BK to Weis in the narrow category of offensive recruiting rankings, the Weis will likely win because you focused on his core competency.

And that was near to two good years. Weis's schtick may have worn off once recruits knew him as a 6-6 coach.

 

[FightingIrish44]

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Hence going back to the beginning. When I was asked what I'm questioning by the buffoon. We can play 5 wheel (1/, 1/4, 1/2) with a wheeled CB playing flat. but then you lose the Rover to the backside. The Invert safeties play on the outside Eye of 2. If 1 and 2 go vertical they will work to the inside of 2. while the corner will funnel 1 and run with him. I don't use 6i and 4i etc. a 4 is inside shade of a tackle. 2 is head up on the guard. Minus is weak shade on the nose. They play RIPO. It's a read. A bullet is a 9 tech. But the alignment is cocked with the inside hand or foot depending on the shoulder of the tackle. Corners are not playing traditional cover 2. They are playing funnel flat. which means they sink and funnel 1 but will run with him unless 2 releases to the flat.

So CB’s have #1 vertical unless #2 is in the flat? Okay I think we were just mixed up on terminology.

I’m just going to take a shot at it. So you were playing that soft cover 2/2 read/blue/palms whatever we want to call it. Motion to 3x1. I guess you decide how you want this to check. But keeping two LB in the box you can man #1 everywhere he goes with the CB to the trips. The two safeties to that side are now playing Cover 2 Read to #2 and #3. Mike walls #3 short. Will, Corner and Safety play any number of coverages to #1 weak and the back. Best way to keep the two LB’s truly in the box.

Otherwise you bring the backside safety to take #3 vertical. The weak CB and Will play quarters on the WR and back out. The trips side CB and high safety play your version of Cover 2 to #1 and #2. The low safety is aligned between #2 and #3 and walls #2 on pass and expands under #1 with the #2 into the flat. If #3 into the flat, Mike pushes the coverage to new #3 and the low safety expands.

You could also keep the low safety outside #2. CB has man on #1. Low safety and high safety play robber on #2. Mike again pushes the coverage with #3 into the flat. Backside safety has #3 vertical.

 

[john0gaunt]

No Weis went to KU and said his players were crap.

Link?

If you compare BK to Weis in the narrow category of offensive recruiting rankings,

Z. Martin
M. Teo
Harrison Smith
Robert Blanton
Zeke Motta
Darrin Walls
Kona Schwenke
Darius Fleming
Prince Shembo
KLM

 

[FightingIrish44]

You must have forgotten how Weis trashed ND after he was let go, even though he had a huge buyout that paid him millions.

How did he trash ND? I honestly wasn’t aware that that happened.

 

[tbonesays]

Link?


Harrison Smith

https://is.gd/RpAiEd

Was used by Weis as a linebacker.

 

[john0gaunt]

https://is.gd/RpAiEd

Was used by Weis as a linebacker.

Are you challenged mentally? Weis was talking about his Kansas team, not ND.

Smith was used as a linebacker by Weis because Weis had NFL level safeties on his team. Kelly, not so much. And strangely, Smith is listed as a safety on the 2009 roster.

Try to do better.

 

[Ara64]

If the schools on those schedule had played at their normal level of play they would have been very strong schedules. You play the schedule placed before you. ND played very well and I will not say otherwise because I'm mad at the way BK left ND. It's not fair to those players and coaches to do that. It's time to move on and stop the temper tantrums'. We have a new Coach and Oklahoma State waiting for us in 32 days.

 

[deadmanramsey]

You are making an apples to oranges comparison when trying to evaluate the roster Weis left behind and the roster Kelly left behind.

One has the benefit of hindsight and the other does not. You'll have to revisit this thread in several years to see what kinds of players emerge out of the recent recruiting classes Kelly helped put together. I'd venture a guess and say there are some currently unproven guys who will prove to be studs.

 

[chipper539]

That's right, I'm going there.

Kelly inherited from Weis a team with (2) 5* QB's. (of which he developed neither)
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin

And Weis had recruited Manti who arrived for the 2010 season.

Kelly leaves MF a team with:
Jack Coan
Michael Mayer
?

It is clear the schedule watered down the last few seasons and does not compare with the earlier SOS. So, sure Kelly won lots of games. But when he had to play Michigan, Michigan State, Miami, usc, and a ranked Stanford in the same year, he lost 5 games.

Kelly left the program under much better shape, and it's not even close

 

[r2p2]

Kelly left the program under much better shape, and it's not even close

It may be so, but Kelly could care less about the state of or future of ND football.

 

[NCDomer1]

There is no question BK left the program in better shape by getting and building depth at every position.

 

[tbonesays]

Are you challenged mentally? Weis was talking about his Kansas team, not ND.

That's what we were talking about. Pretty much every point that tried to make Weis > Kelly will fail except the one about elite QB throwers.

 

[john0gaunt]

Strength and Conditioning was in shambles under Weis.
No nutrition Program
No psych Program

Just no program. Spotty recruiting with not much development.

Not even close and yes, the wins and loses speak for themselves.

Not trolling, asking a serious question.

Can you tell me which of these players was lacking in:
1. Strength and Conditioning
2. Nutrition
3. Psych

Jimmy Clausen
Tommy Rees
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo
Harrison Smith
Robert Blanton
Zeke Motta
Darrin Walls
Kona Schwenke
Darius Fleming
Prince Shembo
KLM


Now, the correct answer could be Prince Shembo, because I think he was the guy that got arrested kicking his GF's dog or something? But that was some years later in the nfl so I don't think it's relevant.

 

[twalsh]

Jimmy Clausen
Tommy Rees
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo
Harrison Smith
Robert Blanton
Zeke Motta
Darrin Walls
Kona Schwenke
Darius Fleming
Prince Shembo
KLM

Like it was during both the Faust and Weis eras, that list has very few lineman on it. Therein lies the rub.

 

[john0gaunt]

One has the benefit of hindsight and the other does not.

Except no. I'm making the argument based on star power and NFL experience.

Kelly's team, while talented, has nowhere near the pure star power. QB, WR, TE, RB, LB, DL and safety. Everywhere.

But I totally agree, many of the guys on this team will have great careers in NCAA and NFL. Just not as many as the Weis team Kelly inherited.

 

[john0gaunt]

Like it was during both the Faust and Weis eras, that list has very few lineman on it. Therein lies the rub.

I can add:
Chris Watt
Trevor Robinson
Zach Martin
Mike Golic
KLM

Wasn't there quite a bit of chatter on this board about the lack of talent on this years OL that was passed on to Coach Freeman?

 

[NIN Irish]

Not trolling, asking a serious question.

Can you tell me which of these players was lacking in:
1. Strength and Conditioning
2. Nutrition
3. Psych

Jimmy Clausen
Tommy Rees
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo
Harrison Smith
Robert Blanton
Zeke Motta
Darrin Walls
Kona Schwenke
Darius Fleming
Prince Shembo
KLM


Now, the correct answer could be Prince Shembo, because I think he was the guy that got arrested kicking his GF's dog or something? But that was some years later in the nfl so I don't think it's relevant.

Tommy Rees

 

[twalsh]

I can add:
Chris Watt
Trevor Robinson
Zach Martin
Mike Golic
KLM

Wasn't there quite a bit of chatter on this board about the lack of talent on this years OL that was passed on to Coach Freeman?

The problem with Faust and Weis was how enamored they were with skill position players, especially offensive ones. They both recruited lineman kind of as an afterthought, but Faust was much worse than Weis.

 

[john0gaunt]

Tommy Rees

Rees would finish the season with a completion percentage of 65.5%, a second to the Irish record of 68%, held by Jimmy Clausen.

Sure pal.

 

[NIN Irish]

Rees would finish the season with a completion percentage of 65.5%, a second to the Irish record of 68%, held by Jimmy Clausen.

Sure pal.

Oh okay. I didn't realize this was about completion percentage. I was simply referring to strength, that you highlighted. Rees had mediocre, at best arm strength, pal
How many times did he turn the ball over?

 

[john0gaunt]

Rees had mediocre, at best arm strength, pal

You are totally and completely, welcome to your opinion.

But that's what it is. Your opinion.

 

[deadmanramsey]

Except no. I'm making the argument based on star power and NFL experience.

Kelly's team, while talented, has nowhere near the pure star power. QB, WR, TE, RB, LB, DL and safety. Everywhere.

But I totally agree, many of the guys on this team will have great careers in NCAA and NFL. Just not as many as the Weis team Kelly inherited.

How have you determined the "star power" and "NFL experience" of all the current freshmen and incoming freshmen? How does that not require hindsight in order to evaluate? If you have the power of clairvoyance then please let me know as I'm sure there are other questions worth asking you.

 

[tbonesays]

Like it was during both the Faust and Weis eras, that list has very few lineman on it. Therein lies the rub.

Now he's comparing Weis's worst to Kelly's forte. Watch any random game from 2009 and 2010. In the latter players block and tackle better. And 2011 Rees was moving the ball almost as much as the inefficient Clausen and winning a lot more games.

 

[john0gaunt]

How have you determined the "star power" and "NFL experience" of all the current freshmen and incoming freshmen? How does that not require hindsight in order to evaluate? If you have the power of clairvoyance then please let me know as I'm sure there are other questions worth asking you.

I'm sorry my man. If you look on the interwebs, you'll find a number of sites that rate recruits coming out of HS. They are given "stars" based on their talent level and rated on their ability to succeed at the next level. Usually looking for 3-5 star players. The more stars, the better really. No clairvoyance needed.

Weis left Kelly Clausen, Crist, Teo, Rudolph, Eifert, Tate, Floyd, etc etc. The team was littered with 4 and 5 star talent.

Kelly left Freeman zero 5 star players. Zero.

If you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them.

 

[notredamerises23]

Is this poster Weis or Weis’s son? Lol what is this?

 

[deadmanramsey]

I'm sorry my man. If you look on the interwebs, you'll find a number of sites that rate recruits coming out of HS. They are given "stars" based on their talent level and rated on their ability to succeed at the next level. Usually looking for 3-5 star players. The more stars, the better really. No clairvoyance needed.

Weis left Kelly Clausen, Crist, Teo, Rudolph, Eifert, Tate, Floyd, etc etc. The team was littered with 4 and 5 star talent.

Kelly left Freeman zero 5 star players. Zero.

If you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them.

Yes, I'm sure I'll have more questions as to how you came to bone-headed conclusions.

You are still comparing the known with the unknown. How can you compare the finished careers of all the guys you have been listing to the careers of guys who have not yet had one? The verdict isn't even close to being in on lots of guys. Players like Kyren Williams and JOK would have been foolishly dismissed outright if this thread were created several years ago. You are just guessing based on recruiting rankings, which are fallible, especially when talking about relatively small sample sizes. Who knows, all of our four stars could be busts and all our three stars could be studs. We have to wait and see how it all plays out to know for sure how good these guys really are at the college level.

Even if you want to treat recruiting rankings like Gospel, it's far from clear cut who is inheriting better talent. Arguably it's Freeman.

Average Recruiting Ranking Kelly Inherited : 11.5
Average Recruiting Ranking Freeman Inherited : 10.2 (Subject to change, based on current rankings)

Also, you aren't even looking at it from the proper perspective. Where is the context and nuance? A roster is not just a collection of random individuals that can be crammed together and called a team. A good roster is a team with an identity, with players who match a certain makeup and skill-set that fit into a winning philosophy. I want good fits for a good system. Weis built a lousy system and didn't even bother developing depth. There's a reason why Cincinnati does so well without top-end talent.

And all of this is only looking at it from the vantage point of raw personnel. We're not even talking about all the other factors that are conducive to having a successful program. A winning culture that Kelly built for example. Notre Dame is a much easier sell right now than 12 years ago. If you are so fixated on recruiting then you should be happy with what Kelly is handing over, as winning 10+ games a year and making playoffs bodes much better for future recruiting than trying to convince kids to come play for an overrated .500 team.

 

[john0gaunt]

Arguably it's Freeman.

So we agree, one could argue it's Freeman and one could argue it was Kelly.

That's really the point of the thread.

But if I hand you a team with 4 and 5* talent all over the field in every skill position, plus 8 linemen that were drafted into the NFL, all you need to do is recruit and coach up 4 or 5 for depth, that isn't such a bad deal. BTW Kelly did complain about them.

Also, in Freeman's PC, he mentions that he needs to recruit the kind of talented players that would take the team to the next level. So, maybe the talent level of the team is more important than you understand it to be.

 

[BodiTheGreat]

No facts from anyone, just opinions so far. Who on Kelly's roster is equal to any one of these players?

Jimmy Clausen
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo

KH is great, but he's going to the league.

You only have one damn defense player on your list !!! Kelly inherited a team with no defense !!!