So its more important to you to have all the legal weapons you desire than it is to do something from a legislative standpoint that might help prevent tragedies like the one we just saw in Las Vegas ?
OT: Las Vegas Active Shooter
- Thread starter raulduke_007
- Start date
IIO...practically speaking, the ONLY way the US can lawfully ban weapons as you suggest, is through a Constitutional amendment. Absent that, we can and should make it more time consuming and more difficult to purchase guns lawfully. That might make well meaning folks feel better, but it’s not likely to deter folks like this nut, or the Colorado nut, or the Orlando nut, etc... from getting their hands on weapons and perpetrating mass murder. Frankly, if this guy was prohibited to buy guns, he would have made a bomb to kill his victims, as evidenced by having ammonia nitrate in his car trunk and explosive devices at home.
Yes, Technology has dramatically changed the destructive nature of guns, but it’s not like our founding fathers didn’t debate this issue, as shown in the Federalist Papers leading to our Bill of Rights.
Simply put, I support these kind of controlling measures that are deemed constitutional, but I don’t really expect any measurable change. Maybe one day the country will in fact embrace your view that the many law abiding citizens should be willing to forgo their right to own guns with the aim to eliminate gun violence, but a constitutional amendment to achieve this will not likely happen in either of our lifetimes.
I believe the way our constitution was written was to preserve all individual rights over that of a federal government.
It's hard to look at what's going on in other countries and compare them with the country I live in.
There are too many variables the United States is unique country unto itself.
Right now in this country is hard to have a conversation with what the previous president has done and with what the current president is doing both sides of the parties are not listening to each other.
Individually it's easy to have a conversation
As a group it's very difficult.
I look at the consequences of our past as to what has made this country into a great nation and bring in the possibilities of a better America.
But to remove civilian check on a federal government just will not happen in this country. Our fore fathers had the hindsight of an abusive government and the foresight to create this constitution we live by
For those who believe this is bloviating or just something that could never happen to check a government....... Well I just hope the federal government of this country does not force the citizenship hand.
How do you go about punishing those who use guns illegally?
I am not a death penalty promoter so do we build more prisons? Do we hand out slap on the hand punishments and feel bad for the criminal?
Do we make excuses for the criminal and the crimes that were committed with illegal guns?
These are the conversations I am more than willing to have but to amend a constitution that the forefathers wrote to protect us from our own government that I will not participate in.
My AK-47 or either one of my AR-15s and I hate the mention the Uzi I have are all legal and use responsibly. Surely not used for hunting aside for the AR with 7.62 I do carry in case I run into Hogs or bears
There doesn't have to be a "good reason." It's an enshrined right, and you can't take it away with simple knee-jerk legislation. You have to go through a specific amendment process. So, your time and energy would be better spend pursuing that avenue, instead of just yelling and screaming for a procedure that won't/can't be done.
Yeah but the problem is proponents of gun control don't want to do that. They just want to do it the quick and easy way, and disregard all unintended consequences.
He didn't. The Supreme Court has already addressed that issue, and have ruled basically the opposite of your interpretation.
Telx,
I don't expect it to happen either. I just cannot buy the idea that Americans are somehow crazier, dumber, more filled with malice, or in need of psychiatric help then let's say Australians, Canadians, Norwegians, or Swedes... I don't think there is anything wrong with Americans.
So why then are these things constantly happening in America, if Americans are no different than any of the other highly educated, industrialized, safe, relatively happy people of the world?
Guns. Access to thousands of them. Legally and illegally.
I think people fail to recognize what would have to go along with a federal gun banning order to actually start to significantly reduce gun violence on a national scope. People throw terms like "federal gun ban" around, but they don't know how that works in practicality.
A constitutional amendment needs to be made outlawing guns for anything but hunting. That means no more open carry, handguns, etc, etc. The process to be approved for your hunting license and your unrestricted gun ownership needs to then become extensive (meaning a long process). I countries with guns bans, the FEDERAL police do your background search and approve your ability to buy a weapon deemed legal for hunting. You then have to store your guns in a locked case. Their ammunition must be stored and locked, separately. Guns must have a trigger lock on them at all times while being stored, etc, etc... It's treated very seriously and the penalties for being caught not taking those laws seriously, are immense. I'm talking jail time, confiscation of the weapon, huge fines, etc, etc.
It does not help overnight. You need to systematically collect the vast majority of illegal guns in the country, which is extremely costly. Entire divisions of police departments need to specialize in the gathering of information on / the rounding up of illegal firearms and people are going to die in order for that to happen. Some people will go down shooting. Neighbourhoods with high gun violence need to be policed endlessly and merciously. You're talking about more arrest warrants and warrants to enter people's homes than have probably ever been written in U.S. history. There also needs to be a lucrative financial reward for voluntarily handing in your guns, or don't expect people to give them up. People have spent lots of money on their collections and aren't just going to give them up for free.
Any federal program that is properly implemented takes many years to work properly and is extremely expensive to implement. Especially when you have as many guns circulating in the United States as you do now. A "federal ban on guns" does nothing if tax payers aren't willing to spend billions, over let's say a decade, to innact it, enforce it, and take measures to ensure It's effective.
More than Constitutional reasons, that's why I don't ever seen it happening, at least in a way that actually deters gun violence in America.
Edit... I think I'm bring far too general in making this point. Need to rethink this one.
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You have a right to own a gun. It doesn't say anything where you have the right to own semi-automatic weapons or guns designed for the military. That's why you see these type of guns banned in some states.
If this was a one time occurrence we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
We're the only country in the world that watches this happen over and over and simply says "oh well, nothing can be done". Complete stupidity.
And end thread. Use common sense. Stop letting gun lobbyists jeopardize our safety.
ISIS doesn't need to try and create terror in America. The NRA has already laid that ground work.
Look at Australia's gun violence 20 years ago. Last massacre was about 20 years ago - 35 dead at one time. Australia instituted strict gun laws exactly 20 years ago after that event. Knock on wood - Australia has not had another incident since that time - think about that - think about how safe Australians now feel when they go to public events.
Think about how safe Australians feel just day to day in their normal lives w/out worry that some whack job may shoot them.
In the USA a massacre is determined if 4 or more lives are killed by guns at one time. In the USA we average at least 1 massacre (4 or more lives killed 6 out of 7 days a week. We no longer even hear "nationwide" about the low number massacres of 4 or 5 at time. We as a country are now numb to the small massacres. The right wing media makes sure they never report on it. The left wing media is too stupid not too report on it. We massacre 4 or more brothers, sisters, dads, moms, boys, girls, almost every day and NO ONE CARES ANYMORE IN AMERICA.
Only when the numbers are large of 10 plus do we really care or does it really get reported Nationwide.
I am for the 2nd Amendment. I am a hunter. The right to bear arms that are pistols or hunting rifles etc. are perfectly fine. AK 47's or any type of assault rifles or adapters that can make a rifle into an automatic - all of that type of weaponry is not used for hunting. It is used to KILL People - Kill Kids, etc. All of that needs to be outlawed.
You want to shoot automatic weaponry - join the Military and have at it.
Strict back ground checks are needed for all gun ownership. A rigorous routine is needed to obtain a drivers license. The same is needed or needs to be implemented to own a gun.
Guns don't kill people - people kill people - but if people did not have access to automatic / rapid fire guns or semi automatic guns - a lot less people would be killed. Mass shootings would a lot less prevalent in our country.
Bombs are used to kill people - bombs are outlawed. Automatic Weapons are made to kill people and our not for hunting // any and all types or things that can easily convert a rifle to an automatic weapon or semi automatic weapon need to be out lawed.
Enough w/ the senseless Blood shed. Australia figured it out - Why can't America ? If we don't, when will the next Massacre occur ? - Where will it happen ? How many people die next time ? Where will you be when that happens ?
How many people die next time ? Hard core Gun advocates please give me an estimate of how many die next time ? Also tell me when Australia will have another massacre ? Do they go another 20 years w/ nothing ?
Look at Australia's gun violence 20 years ago. Last massacre was about 20 years ago - 35 dead at one time. Australia instituted strict gun laws exactly 20 years ago after that event. Knock on wood - Australia has not had another incident since that time - think about that - think about how safe Australians now feel when they go to public events.
Think about how safe Australians feel just day to day in their normal lives w/out worry that some whack job may shoot them.
In the USA a massacre is determined if 4 or more lives are killed by guns at one time. In the USA we average at least 1 massacre (4 or more lives killed 6 out of 7 days a week. We no longer even hear "nationwide" about the low number massacres of 4 or 5 at time. We as a country are now numb to the small massacres. The right wing media makes sure they never report on it. The left wing media is too stupid not too report on it. We massacre 4 or more brothers, sisters, dads, moms, boys, girls, almost every day and NO ONE CARES ANYMORE IN AMERICA.
Only when the numbers are large of 10 plus do we really care or does it really get reported Nationwide.
I am for the 2nd Amendment. I am a hunter. The right to bear arms that are pistols or hunting rifles etc. are perfectly fine. AK 47's or any type of assault rifles or adapters that can make a rifle into an automatic - all of that type of weaponry is not used for hunting. It is used to KILL People - Kill Kids, etc. All of that needs to be outlawed.
You want to shoot automatic weaponry - join the Military and have at it.
Strict back ground checks are needed for all gun ownership. A rigorous routine is needed to obtain a drivers license. The same is needed or needs to be implemented to own a gun.
Guns don't kill people - people kill people - but if people did not have access to automatic / rapid fire guns or semi automatic guns - a lot less people would be killed. Mass shootings would a lot less prevalent in our country.
Bombs are used to kill people - bombs are outlawed. Automatic Weapons are made to kill people and our not for hunting // any and all types or things that can easily convert a rifle to an automatic weapon or semi automatic weapon need to be out lawed.
Enough w/ the senseless Blood shed. Australia figured it out - Why can't America ? If we don't, when will the next Massacre occur ? - Where will it happen ? How many people die next time ? Where will you be when that happens ?
How many people die next time ? Hard core Gun advocates please give me an estimate of how many die next time ? Also tell me when Australia will have another massacre ? Do they go another 20 years w/ nothing ?
Australia is just one example. It is exceptionally rare for any type of mass shooting, or even gun violence in general to occur in any 1st world industrialized country with a strict gun ban and policies and funding to renenforce it.
Again, you're between 50-100x more likely to be shot to death in the United States than in a place like Austria, Norway, Sweden, Japan, Canada, etc, etc.
It's not rocket science. It's common sense. It also happens to be unconstitutional at the present time in the United States. So there becomes questions of policy, legality and pragmatism.
It would help if you would learn some terminology. Most firearms, including basic handguns, are semi-automatic weapons.
I have an AK and in fact I have an Uzi as well how many mass killings have I committed tick tock tick tock tick tock?
Between Australia and Canada you got approximately 60 million people in the United States alone you have 360 million people
So I believe you're mixing apples to oranges.
The Second Amendment isn't only about self-defense and it isn't about hunting.
Now notably since you have no problem with handguns are you aware that handguns are the weapons that have committed more murders in the United States then semi-automatics
They were 762 murders in Chicago alone last year the majority of them by hand guns. And that's just Chicago.
How many of these handguns that committed murders in Chicago we're done by law-abiding citizens with legally owned weapons?
I noticed you singled out the NRA.
I am an NRA member and have been since 1978.
How many NRA members have committed murders
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/22/gun-rights-supporters-national-rifle-association-nra
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An approach to the problem might be to regulate certain munitiontions. Bad guys will always be able to get guns. If there were a way to license munition acquisitons and create a data base to follow acquisitions, it is a sort of gun control.
Note: in under 20 minutes, the nut killed .1 of 1 % of all the Americans killed in Viet.
Note: in under 20 minutes, the nut killed .1 of 1 % of all the Americans killed in Viet.
This cats an ass clown
I wonder if he got these talking point from Chuck Schumer much like you did in his Healthcare rant
They are arms which as an American citizen I have the right to bear as long as they are not fully automatic.
By the way handguns kill more people in semi automatics so what exactly are you saying?
Citizen should not have to pay for the sins of criminals
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Maybe we're normal and small rich white countries are exceptionally docile.
You cannot legislate homicidal maniacs.
What legal standpoint do you recommend that will not infringe on the Second Amendment I'm all ears
Dead, it's not apples and oranges -
It is very much Apples to Apples -
Australia had little to no gun control for a lot of years prior to 20 years ago - and during that time they had numerous gun deaths and massacres.
And then they instituted rigorous gun controls 20 years ago and since those new laws - no massacres.
Keep your head in the sand and go polish your AK 47.
Answer my question i posed in my first thread.
How many people die in the next massacre in the USA ?
And when they do - their blood is on your hands and the hands of all NRA members who do not support COMMON SENSE gun control.
How many Amercians die in the next massacre Dead I P ?
Are you saying you want the military to patrol the streets and try to protect citizens?
So citizens have blood on their hands when criminals commit crimes in your world correct?
I'd tell you if you like Australia so much why don't you move there but their immigration laws are very strict so I doubt that is going to happen
So you're stuck here with me the NRA the criminals and the Second Amendment what a country
I noticed your hard on is with semi-automatics but neglect all the murders done with handguns( which most murders are done with) something I imagine you owned by the way.
Are the blood of those murdered on your hands then?
Maybe you're right. Again, I have no political or emotional investment in this subject. I'm simply presenting examples of countries where gun bans and subsequent law enforcement have undoubtedly worked at greatly eliminating gun violence. I don't know that I would agree that those countries are docile in nature, I simply think they place greater value on societal good than individual good. Just a different way of thinking that has great success in curbing gun violence. That said, all of those countries have their own issues as well.
Is it ever hard to get into Australia. I got grilled over some of the other stamps in my passport. They're worried about where you've been and why you are there. The Aussies don't screw around when it comes to immigration.
Great place to visit
You have to have a trade that is in need in order to be considered most the time.
I did like it there though
You have to have a trade that is in need in order to be considered most the time.
I did like it there though
Agreed. Legislation will not end the issue. Not by a long shot. I think America is "all in" on gun violence. We need to get this guy out of office in Canada and tighten down our U.S. border in an attempt to stop the flow of guns into Canada. The gun violence in our big cities has been slowly-but-surely creeping up and the vast, vast majority of the guns being used in those situations come from across the border.
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They may not have guns that will get you, but there is no shortage of wildlife that will kill you instantly.
To answer your first question - citizens who support NO Gun controls - yes absolutely you and they have Blood on their hands.
If there is COMMON SENSE gun control - less criminals or whack jobs will have guns - which equal less death and less number of massacres.
Your last question - No, there is Not blood on my hands like yours have - because i support COMMON SENSE gun control w a rigorous process to even own a fun.
And I see you agree w me now that The Australia example is Apples to Apples since you switched your Australia debate to saying I should go live there.
1)To answer your first question - citizens who support NO Gun controls - yes absolutely you and they have Blood on their hands
I do support gun control and there is gun control on the books it needs to be enforced.
Now if you want stricter gun controls then you could be running into a second amendment problem Which which the Supreme Court has ruled on numerous times.
But remember you're only restricting the citizen not the criminal
So no blood on my hands
2)If there is COMMON SENSE gun control - less criminals or whack jobs will have guns - whichequal less death and less number of massacres.
Such as?
3) Your last question - No, there is Not blood on my hands like yours have - because i support COMMON SENSE gun control w a rigorous process to even own a fun.
They already have that next, unless you want to practically prevent the citizen from getting a gun which does nothing to stop criminals from getting them because they don't fall underneath the rigorous process to even own a gun.
4) And I see you agree w me now that The Australia example is Apples to Apples since you switched your Australia debate to saying I should go live there.
I didn't agree with you I was just saying you have a better chance of living there which is no chance than having the Second Amendment change.
Better embraces the Second Amendment or is going to eat you alive.
I do support gun control and there is gun control on the books it needs to be enforced.
Now if you want stricter gun controls then you could be running into a second amendment problem Which which the Supreme Court has ruled on numerous times.
But remember you're only restricting the citizen not the criminal
So no blood on my hands
2)If there is COMMON SENSE gun control - less criminals or whack jobs will have guns - whichequal less death and less number of massacres.
Such as?
3) Your last question - No, there is Not blood on my hands like yours have - because i support COMMON SENSE gun control w a rigorous process to even own a fun.
They already have that next, unless you want to practically prevent the citizen from getting a gun which does nothing to stop criminals from getting them because they don't fall underneath the rigorous process to even own a gun.
4) And I see you agree w me now that The Australia example is Apples to Apples since you switched your Australia debate to saying I should go live there.
I didn't agree with you I was just saying you have a better chance of living there which is no chance than having the Second Amendment change.
Better embraces the Second Amendment or is going to eat you alive.
So by some logic in this thread, hospitals should be shut down since they cause 161,000 deaths per year between infection and errors. As much as we all love a drink, or a smoke, those should also be illegal. My point is, when does the individual get blamed for his/her actions. Leave a car in neutral on a hill, it could roll down and kill someone. Leave a loaded gun on the dresser, it is not going to fire itself and kill someone
Excellent point
Dead, you say you didn't agree on Australia - but you changed the argument - I just take that as an agreement that the Australia argument was Apples to Apples.
Embrace the. 2nd amendment ?
I know you embrace it dearly w all the weapons you own. Hopefully your of sound mind and don't ever go over the deep end like Paddock did.
God bless you w good mental health.
I am of sound mind brother
The weapons I own didn't come overnight I have accumulated them over the past 50 years
I still have my 410 Sears Roebuck bolt action that I got when I was 10
If there was something that can be down that would not hamper the citizen yet tie the hands of the Criminal I'd be all in but if it was that easy it would already been done
We don't know anything about this cat that committed this horrendous crime other than he was very rich, a gambler, and a psychopath.
I don't know if he targeted the country crown or if they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time but as the events continue to unfold will know more and then possibly we can all agree on what can be done after everything has been completed.
I would truly like to get behind something that can make a difference yet doesn't go against the Second Amendment
Anyway I appreciate the frank conversation take care brother
The weapons I own didn't come overnight I have accumulated them over the past 50 years
I still have my 410 Sears Roebuck bolt action that I got when I was 10
If there was something that can be down that would not hamper the citizen yet tie the hands of the Criminal I'd be all in but if it was that easy it would already been done
We don't know anything about this cat that committed this horrendous crime other than he was very rich, a gambler, and a psychopath.
I don't know if he targeted the country crown or if they were just at the wrong place at the wrong time but as the events continue to unfold will know more and then possibly we can all agree on what can be done after everything has been completed.
I would truly like to get behind something that can make a difference yet doesn't go against the Second Amendment
Anyway I appreciate the frank conversation take care brother
Take care as well DIP.
Agree there is a lot more to come from this sick man.
Hopefully the girl friend can shed some
Light.
Have a good week.
Agree there is a lot more to come from this sick man.
Hopefully the girl friend can shed some
Light.
Have a good week.
So much hypocrisy..
Alcohol and Tobacco, no problem..
Pharmaceuticals, no problem..
Abortion, fund it!
Drugs, legalize them all!
Muslims, nope, no reason to vet..
Pepsi, McDonalds, prolonging life and reducing health problems!
Mass murder of animals after living in horrid conditions, no problem!
I could go on and on...
Either care about life, or don't care about life, stop vacillating b/w the two.
So tired of Faux outrage..
Alcohol and Tobacco, no problem..
Pharmaceuticals, no problem..
Abortion, fund it!
Drugs, legalize them all!
Muslims, nope, no reason to vet..
Pepsi, McDonalds, prolonging life and reducing health problems!
Mass murder of animals after living in horrid conditions, no problem!
I could go on and on...
Either care about life, or don't care about life, stop vacillating b/w the two.
So tired of Faux outrage..
"If there is COMMON SENSE gun control - less criminals or whack jobs will have guns"
So we're supposed to rely on criminals and whack jobs to abide by COMMON SENSE gun control? You think the Vegas shooter would have said to himself "you know, I'm thinking of killing 60 people and injuring over 500 but that pesky common sense gun control law has got me thinking that I shouldn't?
So we're supposed to rely on criminals and whack jobs to abide by COMMON SENSE gun control? You think the Vegas shooter would have said to himself "you know, I'm thinking of killing 60 people and injuring over 500 but that pesky common sense gun control law has got me thinking that I shouldn't?
I don't know. should we all just throw our hands in the air and say "oh well it happened again " ? or do we take a serious approach to the issue. we get it you love your precious guns. that approach does nothing but benefit you.
I'm not alone brother.
I'm all for taking a serious approach without tearing the Constitution apart because when one Amendment goes they all go.
I find it interesting that DIP is the only one here making any reference to citizens being armed as a check on government. I know in today’s America with our military might that seems like a silly concept, but it was central to the arguments that led to the adoption of the second amendment. Strict constitutionalists therefore see almost any government control over this, including banning fully automatic rifles, as a violation of the constitution. Personally, I am against the concentration of power in our Federal government over every aspect of our lives, and I keep hoping we’ll see a movement towards decentralization, much like the States that are arguing the principle for Sanctuary State Rights, which is ironic beyond words. That said, I also don’t see where the principle of citizens armed as a check on government, in other words the ability to mount armed resistance aka revolt, would be supported by the majority of Americans if that was the singular argument presented in support of gun ownership.
There is a reason and foresight that the authors of the Constitution put the right to bear arms.
Second Amendment. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitutionreads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the rightof the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms and was adopted on December 15, 1791, as part of the first ten amendments contained in the Bill of Rights.[
They had reasons and foresight.
Second Amendment. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitutionreads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the rightof the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms and was adopted on December 15, 1791, as part of the first ten amendments contained in the Bill of Rights.[
They had reasons and foresight.
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