OT: How did we get here

[NDIRISH53]

No, it is not. All successful countries have to contend with illegal immigration. Most illegal immigrants work and pay taxes. Our economy is boosted by the work that these people provide. And there are more illegals here via lapsed visas than coming straight over the borders.

It is a tiny problem for a country of our size and wealth. Trump and some of his supporters are using FOREIGNERS as a scapegoat. Goes hand in hand with his anti-American values Muslim ban.

False. Illegals pay about 19B in taxes each year. Illegals cost about 135B, 85B which is on the back of states not federal taxpayers. That's a net loss of 116B in which citizens have to foot the bill of illegal immigrants.

It's one thing to help the poorest of the poor of OUR OWN. But to come into our house ILLEGALLY and cost the taxpayer 116B is a disgrace. This is why Trump won... democrats wh*ring themselves out to illegals for the vote of the Hispanic community, republicans with no backbone bowing down to corporations that pay these people $7 cash an hour.

 

[NDIRISH53]

Then why are 92% of the world's Muslims not banned? If it's a Mulim ban, it's a pretty ineffective crappy one.

I say ban the other 92%

We can either be mean and safe or be loving and kind and have our daughters blown up going to concerts. The day America turns into what Germany and U.K. have I hope I'm long gone.

 

[8th Man]

False. Illegals pay about 19B in taxes each year. Illegals cost about 135B, 85B which is on the back of states not federal taxpayers. That's a net loss of 116B in which citizens have to foot the bill of illegal immigrants.

It's one thing to help the poorest of the poor of OUR OWN. But to come into our house ILLEGALLY and cost the taxpayer 116B is a disgrace. This is why Trump won... democrats wh*ring themselves out to illegals for the vote of the Hispanic community, republicans with no backbone bowing down to corporations that pay these people $7 cash an hour.

Looking solely at taxes/expenses and not looking at the positive economic impact (prices paid by most all Americans) is not seeing the entire picture. If all the illegals working to produce food were replaced, food prices would jump what? 15% (a conservative estimate)? That would be over 100 billion right there. Most studies I have read feel that their impact/cost is close to a wash; not worth spending billions searching every state and town to ferret them all out.

I understand wanting to have a secure border and have everyone obey the law (ever notice how many people speed on the highway?); but it is not a huge problem unless you are looking to pick veggies for $15/hour plus benefits.

 

[NDIRISH53]

Looking solely at taxes/expenses and not looking at the positive economic impact (prices paid by most all Americans) is not seeing the entire picture. If all the illegals working to produce food were replaced, food prices would jump what? 15% (a conservative estimate)? That would be over 100 billion right there.

So you'd rather have people get taken advantage of as basically slaves rather than pay an extra 2 dollars for your avocado?

 

[NDlb46]

I sure hope Wimbush makes a prodigious leap in the passing game next year

 

[8th Man]

So you'd rather have people get taken advantage of as basically slaves rather than pay an extra 2 dollars for your avocado?

$8/hour is not quite what they paid slaves.

When CA runs out of water maybe we will be forced to import most of our produce from Mexico and the problem will solve itself.

 

[hfhmilkman]

So you'd rather have people get taken advantage of as basically slaves rather than pay an extra 2 dollars for your avocado?

Slaves are people who are forced to do work at no compensation. I live in "depressed" Michigan. The biggest landscaper in Michigan has their HQ just down the road. They advertise year around for 15 dollars an hour plus benefits to start no skills and they can't get anyone. My landscape guy would love to expand but he can't find anyone willing to do the work. I just stayed at a hotel in Breezewood and the owners are unable to sell all of their rooms because they can't get any help to turn rooms around. My wife's cousin works in heavy diesel repair. This is six figure work compensation if you work hard and stick with it. Yet there is a shortage because no one can be punctional much less show up at all, or even pass a piss test.

I have a friend who is social worker in Ypsilanti. A mother of two on average gets about 30K of benefits if they work every program. We will call that a salary of 35-40K. If all you care about is beer & ciggies and watching TV all day, not a bad life. Maybe some left over cash for some lotto tickets. And amazingly that bridge card will pay for all sorts of luxuries. I would rather take a chance with a poor immigrant who really knows what is poverty and pay them 15 dollars as they have "motivation"

 

[NDIRISH53]

Slaves are people who are forced to do work at no compensation. I live in "depressed" Michigan. The biggest landscaper in Michigan has their HQ just down the road. They advertise year around for 15 dollars an hour plus benefits to start no skills and they can't get anyone. My landscape guy would love to expand but he can't find anyone willing to do the work. I just stayed at a hotel in Breezewood and the owners are unable to sell all of their rooms because they can't get any help to turn rooms around. My wife's cousin works in heavy diesel repair. This is six figure work compensation if you work hard and stick with it. Yet there is a shortage because no one can be punctional much less show up at all, or even pass a piss test.

I have a friend who is social worker in Ypsilanti. A mother of two on average gets about 30K of benefits if they work every program. We will call that a salary of 35-40K. If all you care about is beer & ciggies and watching TV all day, not a bad life. Maybe some left over cash for some lotto tickets. And amazingly that bridge card will pay for all sorts of luxuries. I would rather take a chance with a poor immigrant who really knows what is poverty and pay them 15 dollars as they have "motivation"

Please.. I did landscaping all 4 years of high school and I think I got paid 5.50 an hour. That's an exception to the rule.

 

[NDIRISH53]

$8/hour is not quite what they paid slaves.

When CA runs out of water maybe we will be forced to import most of our produce from Mexico and the problem will solve itself.

Some get paid 8 yes others may get paid 5, and get treated terribly in many cases with limited breaks and 10-12 hour days with no overtime. I admire the men who do this work, I truly do. But the employers are the ones who I have 0 respect for. They are making indentured servitudes out of these people who know they can't quit or complain.

 

[hfhmilkman]

Please.. I did landscaping all 4 years of high school and I think I got paid 5.50 an hour. That's an exception to the rule.

Perhaps during an economic downturn. My research is showing that bare minimum is 10 dollars right now with most sites citing 12-14. The same thing happened during the internet bubble. I recall that fast food franchises could not open in the morning due to lack of employees. In 2000 10-12 dollars an hour was the break point where you could not make money.

 

[twalsh]

This is a pretty civil discussion, but there's a tone that suggests that some people believe that Trump et al want to eliminate immigration to the US from Central and South America. Nobody has ever suggested eliminating immigration, and immigration reform would even allow for the possibility of adjusting the requirements for being granted asylum. They just want to secure the border and control the process. Is there anyone who finds that proposal unreasonable?

I really wish Trump, when he suspended the family separation process a couple weeks ago, would have put a time frame on it. Say 60 days. And then tell Congress they have 60 days to craft and pass an acceptable immigration bill, or the separation of families sits securely on their shoulders. Maybe then they might actually take care of this issue that has been lingering on for what seems like decades. Congresses that have had both Democrat and Republican majorities have dropped the ball for many years on this subject. Time for them to do their job, and understand they're not going to get everything they want in doing so.

 

[ivan brunetti]

Ron Paul, libertarian hero, shares his fears:

 

[hfhmilkman]

This is a pretty civil discussion, but there's a tone that suggests that some people believe that Trump et al want to eliminate immigration to the US from Central and South America. Nobody has ever suggested eliminating immigration, and immigration reform would even allow for the possibility of adjusting the requirements for being granted asylum. They just want to secure the border and control the process. Is there anyone who finds that proposal unreasonable?

I really wish Trump, when he suspended the family separation process a couple weeks ago, would have put a time frame on it. Say 60 days. And then tell Congress they have 60 days to craft and pass an acceptable immigration bill, or the separation of families sits securely on their shoulders. Maybe then they might actually take care of this issue that has been lingering on for what seems like decades. Congresses that have had both Democrat and Republican majorities have dropped the ball for many years on this subject. Time for them to do their job, and understand they're not going to get everything they want in doing so.

The problem is immigration policy is a mess because it has always been a target for populists first on the left and now on the right. As recently as ten years ago much of the rhetoric of Obama and Clinton was anti immigration. The inflection point was the Democratic party abandoning blue collar labor. Labor unions and any cabal that does not want competition from harder working people is inclined to follow these populists sentiments. The Chinese laborers imported to work the railroads and mines during the 19th century were the M13 devils of a previous era. My great great grandfather as a Catholic was another. Read the eugenic works of the great Progressive Woodrow Wilson and you will realize neither party is immune. The architect of the Rock Springs massacre became Teddy Roosevelt's equivalent of a homeland security officer.

I don't think Trump cares in the slightest about immigration. He cares as much about it as he does abortion. The only value these topics have to him is they are venues to generate an emotional response aka use the methods as defined by Georges Sorels. Trump got exactly what he wanted which was the illusion that he is doing something about immigration. If he can perpetuate the illusion that is good enough. Only if forced will he do something destructive. This is the same with the travel ban. The reality is Islamic zealots are far less likely to come from Sudan as compared to France. But Sudan is a failed state and not in a position to complain. So for very little cost Trump can claim he is tough on immigration.

After four years if there is no wall, NAFTA is not repealed, illegal immigration is about the same, and Roe verses Wade still exist Trump will be perfectly content as long as those who vote for him still believe the illusion. Think of the scene in Waterworld where Dennis Hopper tells the Smokers to row; never mind the direction. Of course what happens if the Smokers find out they have been tricked? The dangers of being a populist and believing in nothing.

 

[Irish Duck]

just a question . If Tump’s philandering disqualifies him from being President, how many past Presidents
Should also be judged on their philandering rather than on their accomplishments. In my lifetime, just off
The top of my head, Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Clinton were well know womanizers.
I am sure that I missed a few. LBJ was also a complete low life.
However, I think that history judges those and other past Presidents more by their none bedroom accomplishments Rather than by how active their libidos were ?
So far, I know the Left will not admit it, but President Trump has achieved more in less than two
Years than most Presidents achieved in their full terms!
I really can not think of one President that was elected for his Saintly virtues ?
Can anyone else mane one ?

rgc, I don't know of any of my fellow liberals who suggest that Trump should be impeached, or even judged, as a result of his philandering. What most of us believe disqualifies him for the office of POTUS is his complete and unabashed in ability to tell the truth. I will admit that he might do some good things. I disagree with his appointment but agree that 1/2 the country agrees with that appointment so will just chalk that up to being on the wrong side of the 2016 election. I disagree with all of trade war talk. We definitely have issues with China given their blatant disregard for international intellectual property law. I disagree, however, in imposing tariffs on our allies based solely upon trade. There are many other considerations that go into our relationships with our allies than just trade. At this level, you can't just cherry-pick issues, You need to look at all matters related to the relationship with allies.

As to what Trump has accomplished, I'm at a loss. He spearheaded a tax cut that mostly benefitted the wealthy and creates a monumental federal deficit. Is this something that you consider to be a beneficial accomplishment? He was able to get a conservative justice on to the SC so there is that. He has reduced some governmental regulations and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I will agree that there are far too many regulations on business but some are necessary, especially when it comes to safety and the environment.

What else has he accomplished? Other than pissing off our allies and abdicating our leadership role in the world, what has he done?

 

[Irish Duck]

It is a huge problem. Build the wall!

Illegal immigration is not a huge problem and, in reality, is not a problem at all. Building a wall is nothing but a boondoggle and a waste of taxpayer dollars. Focus on real immigration reform. That, of course, is too difficult for politicians on either side to really work on. It is much easier to throw out silly ideas like the wall.

 

[NDIRISH53]

Perhaps during an economic downturn. My research is showing that bare minimum is 10 dollars right now with most sites citing 12-14. The same thing happened during the internet bubble. I recall that fast food franchises could not open in the morning due to lack of employees. In 2000 10-12 dollars an hour was the break point where you could not make money.

It's just odd. High school kids should be working these jobs, I think I already said I was landscaping all 4 years of high school on most weekends and all summer and barely made anything. Everyone I worked with was your average white guy. I don't know what changed to where people can't do these jobs anymore. That's a whole another issue.

I do respect the guys who do this hard labor, but I don't respect them breaking the law to enter our country. Legal immigrants are some of the best people we have in our country however.

 

[twalsh]

What else has he accomplished? Other than pissing off our allies and abdicating our leadership role in the world, what has he done?

Off the top if my head; the #1 terrorist organization in the world, and a scourge in a major chunk of the middle east, has been decimated, we are no longer going to be the ATM at which our NATO allies pay for their military, we got out of the stupid Paris accord, which was going to cost us more than any other country in the world, The two Koreas are talking to each other and there's at least the possibility of improved relations in that area, we have record low unemployment (especially in minorities) and near record high consumer confidence. As to the tax cuts, the roughly 20,000 non-exempt employees in our company who got bonuses and hourly raises tied specifically to the reduction in corporate taxes laugh at your talking-point driven "tax cut for the rich". Measurements of who gets what in federal tax cuts cannot measure the effect of lower corporate taxes on wage growth or employment growth. So they ignore it. But it's real.

And if anyone abdicated our leadership position in the world, it was the President who went around telling everyone in the world that we were really not that special, not that exceptional.

Now, I fully expect that you will counter everything said above. Go for it.

 

[NDIRISH53]

Off the top if my head; the #1 terrorist organization in the world, and a scourge in a major chunk of the middle east, has been decimated, we are no longer going to be the ATM at which our NATO allies pay for their military, we got out of the stupid Paris accord, which was going to cost us more than any other country in the world, The two Koreas are talking to each other and there's at least the possibility of improved relations in that area, we have record low unemployment (especially in minorities) and near record high consumer confidence. As to the tax cuts, the roughly 20,000 non-exempt employees in our company who got bonuses and hourly raises tied specifically to the reduction in corporate taxes laugh at your talking-point driven "tax cut for the rich". Measurements of who gets what in federal tax cuts cannot measure the effect of lower corporate taxes on wage growth or employment growth. So they ignore it. But it's real.

And if anyone abdicated our leadership position in the world, it was the President who went around telling everyone in the world that we were really not that special, not that exceptional.

Now, I fully expect that you will counter everything said above. Go for it.

All true but he's clearly a racist sexist homophobe who needs to die... along with all other republicans!

 

[rgc7]

rgc, I don't know of any of my fellow liberals who suggest that Trump should be impeached, or even judged, as a result of his philandering. What most of us believe disqualifies him for the office of POTUS is his complete and unabashed in ability to tell the truth. I will admit that he might do some good things. I disagree with his appointment but agree that 1/2 the country agrees with that appointment so will just chalk that up to being on the wrong side of the 2016 election. I disagree with all of trade war talk. We definitely have issues with China given their blatant disregard for international intellectual property law. I disagree, however, in imposing tariffs on our allies based solely upon trade. There are many other considerations that go into our relationships with our allies than just trade. At this level, you can't just cherry-pick issues, You need to look at all matters related to the relationship with allies.

As to what Trump has accomplished, I'm at a loss. He spearheaded a tax cut that mostly benefitted the wealthy and creates a monumental federal deficit. Is this something that you consider to be a beneficial accomplishment? He was able to get a conservative justice on to the SC so there is that. He has reduced some governmental regulations and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I will agree that there are far too many regulations on business but some are necessary, especially when it comes to safety and the environment.

What else has he accomplished? Other than pissing off our allies and abdicating our leadership role in the world, what has he done?

 

[rgc7]

Hello Duck,
Good to see you posting again ! I see that we are still on opposite sides of the spectrum. Wow
Where do I start ?
In any case, I will give it a try.
First on the international front.
Trade , As an economics major and a person who has tried to keep up on economics ( mostly
Stock and option trading ) , I have always be in favor of “ Free Trade “. Free trade in its pure form
Is trade without economic barriers between trading partners.
Unfortunately, Free Trade does not exist ! After WW ll , most of our allies were in economic ruin, and we were the strongest economic nation in the world , a Powerhouse.
The NATO nations were protected by our Military Umbrella at pretty much zero cost to them. We also provided aid to our allies and past enemies to rebuild their countries and economies.
Our auto industries, steel, coal industries were booming , as the years progressed, we allowed the very
Nations that we were helping to build Free Trade into our markets.
As they thrived ( because of our aid and their just about cost free military protection, the began to
Export into our free economy relative inexpensive autos, textiles, and a Myriad of all other types of protects.
As these imports increase, our Rust Belt industries could no longer compete and folded up. Resulting in lost jobs.
Just a related side note and question , Steel, energy and heavy industry are absolutely necessary,
( unless we plan to destroy our enemies ( God forbid WWlll ever takes place ) weapons on mass destruction?)
Over the years through bad trade deals, many of our trading partners have placed barriers on our exports. So in short, we no longer have Free Trade, and Trump is absolutely correct, There is no longer
free Trade, but long term one sided deals must be renegotiated And become Fair Trade
Point I. Trade

 

[rgc7]

Illegal immigration is not a huge problem and, in reality, is not a problem at all. Building a wall is nothing but a boondoggle and a waste of taxpayer dollars. Focus on real immigration reform. That, of course, is too difficult for politicians on either side to really work on. It is much easier to throw out silly ideas like the wall.

 

[Irish Duck]

Off the top if my head; the #1 terrorist organization in the world, and a scourge in a major chunk of the middle east, has been decimated, we are no longer going to be the ATM at which our NATO allies pay for their military, we got out of the stupid Paris accord, which was going to cost us more than any other country in the world, The two Koreas are talking to each other and there's at least the possibility of improved relations in that area, we have record low unemployment (especially in minorities) and near record high consumer confidence. As to the tax cuts, the roughly 20,000 non-exempt employees in our company who got bonuses and hourly raises tied specifically to the reduction in corporate taxes laugh at your talking-point driven "tax cut for the rich". Measurements of who gets what in federal tax cuts cannot measure the effect of lower corporate taxes on wage growth or employment growth. So they ignore it. But it's real.

And if anyone abdicated our leadership position in the world, it was the President who went around telling everyone in the world that we were really not that special, not that exceptional.

Now, I fully expect that you will counter everything said above. Go for it.

I suspect that the employees of Apple, Micron Technology, and Qualcomm don't share the enthusiasm that your company's 20,000 employees have over the tax cut. Which president told the world that we weren't exceptional. We are different but I'm not sure we should ever be telling another nation that we are special and exceptional when we are "middle of the pack" in education; #31 for life expectancy; #17 for quality of life; #19 for overall happiness; and #23 in quality of infrastructure. Of course we are #1 in military spending and military intervention; #1 in juvenile mortality; and #1 in healthcare spending so I guess maybe we are special and exceptional.

 

[rgc7]

hello Duck,

Since my last reply to you, I see that a few other posters responded and answer most of your questions, and did it very well.
So I will just add a few more points : As far as Trump being untruthful, are you trying to say that
Hilary was a more honest person, or Obama’s was an honest man ? Compared to either Hil
Or Barry, Trump is a boy Scout.
Yes we must look into relations with our Allies. As I mentioned their economies have thrived
And we footed the bill for most it. Since I have just returned from Germany and have lived there
For both extended periods of time and have visited for extended stays at least 20 times over the
Last fifty years.
Most Liberal rave about Germany’s Social Programs. Under just about Perfect conditions
( a very large number of younger workers under full employment conditions paying into a Socialistic
government and a relatively small number of old people getting the Social Benfits.)
When I lived there, that was the case. As time went by their Baby Boomers got old,
The Wall came down, and Markell let in a few million “ Refugees “.
My family is starting to see the results of less services and a poorer quality of those services.
Socialism stops working when the State runs out of other people’s money. Once Rich Uncle Sap
Starts asking NATO to pay more, their feelings get hurt !
I think it is time that Nato pays the whole bill for their oun defense ?

 

[hfhmilkman]

Hello Duck,
Good to see you posting again ! I see that we are still on opposite sides of the spectrum. Wow
Where do I start ?
In any case, I will give it a try.
First on the international front.
Trade , As an economics major and a person who has tried to keep up on economics ( mostly
Stock and option trading ) , I have always be in favor of “ Free Trade “. Free trade in its pure form
Is trade without economic barriers between trading partners.
Unfortunately, Free Trade does not exist ! After WW ll , most of our allies were in economic ruin, and we were the strongest economic nation in the world , a Powerhouse.
The NATO nations were protected by our Military Umbrella at pretty much zero cost to them. We also provided aid to our allies and past enemies to rebuild their countries and economies.
Our auto industries, steel, coal industries were booming , as the years progressed, we allowed the very
Nations that we were helping to build Free Trade into our markets.
As they thrived ( because of our aid and their just about cost free military protection, the began to
Export into our free economy relative inexpensive autos, textiles, and a Myriad of all other types of protects.
As these imports increase, our Rust Belt industries could no longer compete and folded up. Resulting in lost jobs.
Just a related side note and question , Steel, energy and heavy industry are absolutely necessary,
( unless we plan to destroy our enemies ( God forbid WWlll ever takes place ) weapons on mass destruction?)
Over the years through bad trade deals, many of our trading partners have placed barriers on our exports. So in short, we no longer have Free Trade, and Trump is absolutely correct, There is no longer
free Trade, but long term one sided deals must be renegotiated And become Fair Trade
Point I. Trade

The Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman had a different perspective on tariffs and subsidies. A country like China that subsidizes their exports is in fact taxing all of their citizens to enable a higher standard of living for us. Proof of this is despite all of the complaints of unfair trade why is business booming? Friedman would observe that there is a wealth transfer occurring from China to the United States.

Case study is steel. China overbuilt their steel industry. To keep all of the state steel companies operating China sells steel at below cost. The difference is picked up by the Chinese people. For steel smelters in the United States this stinks. For everyone else be it a specialty steel maker, or any company like automotive, petroleum, or nails it is a boon. Cars, pipes, and nails can be built cheaper in the United States because of subsidized steel.

A converse case study is the domestic sugar tariff. The United State taxes sugar imports in excess of 300% to protect US farmers including the sugar beat producers in my state of Michigan. The side effect is it is cheaper to produce candy in Canada and Mexico which do not have a tariff. Lifesavers which used to be produced in Michigan moved to Canada. If I want Coke made with cane sugar instead of corn sugar I can purchase coke bottled in Mexico.

Nothing wrong with protecting a strategic industry like semiconductors. Steel and sugar are base commodities.

 

[rgc7]

The Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman had a different perspective on tariffs and subsidies. A country like China that subsidizes their exports is in fact taxing all of their citizens to enable a higher standard of living for us. Proof of this is despite all of the complaints of unfair trade why is business booming? Friedman would observe that there is a wealth transfer occurring from China to the United States.

Case study is steel. China overbuilt their steel industry. To keep all of the state steel companies operating China sells steel at below cost. The difference is picked up by the Chinese people. For steel smelters in the United States this stinks. For everyone else be it a specialty steel maker, or any company like automotive, petroleum, or nails it is a boon. Cars, pipes, and nails can be built cheaper in the United States because of subsidized steel.

A converse case study is the domestic sugar tariff. The United State taxes sugar imports in excess of 300% to protect US farmers including the sugar beat producers in my state of Michigan. The side effect is it is cheaper to produce candy in Canada and Mexico which do not have a tariff. Lifesavers which used to be produced in Michigan moved to Canada. If I want Coke made with cane sugar instead of corn sugar I can purchase coke bottled in Mexico.

Nothing wrong with protecting a strategic industry like semiconductors. Steel and sugar are base commodities.

 

[rgc7]

That is why, I agree with Trump, we need Trade that is both Free and Fair.
We must also-rebuild our heavy industries that are vital to our National Defense. They must be vibrant and healthy.
Our heavy industries And assembly lines were vital to winning WWII.
Without them, in the event of a major war, we certainly cannot depend on any other
Nations to build our tanks, planes, ships, etc. We must be able to not only do it ourselves, but do it
Better and in larger quantities than our enemies can !

 

[rgc7]

I agree with Milton Friedman that if a Nation can produce a product at a lower cost , there is definately a
Transfer of wealth fron the exporting country to the importing country, However, if that continues , the
Dumping of products starts to kill the competing industries of the importing country . Once those industries are gone, jobs are lost, and the benefits of the dumping
Are gone. Those importing countries are now dependent on the exporting country ( the dumpers ) for the products.
The exporters are now free to raise their prices because the competition has been killed off.
The transfer of wealth now is reversed and the wealth now flows back to the country that destroyed
The competition that once existed in the importing country.

 

[theskibro]

When Trump initially listed the nations that would be banned, he hastily tweeted "don't worry! We won't be banning Christians or Jews!". Of course it is a Muslim ban. Trump appeals to this country's worst bigoted and racist fears.

I fffin hate Michigan n penn state fans and would like to ban them from the USA. Am I a racist?

 

[ivan brunetti]

I fffin hate Michigan n penn state fans and would like to ban them from the USA. Am I a racist?

No. You're just a dope.

 

[hfhmilkman]

I agree with Milton Friedman that if a Nation can produce a product at a lower cost , there is definately a
Transfer of wealth fron the exporting country to the importing country, However, if that continues , the
Dumping of products starts to kill the competing industries of the importing country . Once those industries are gone, jobs are lost, and the benefits of the dumping
Are gone. Those importing countries are now dependent on the exporting country ( the dumpers ) for the products.
The exporters are now free to raise their prices because the competition has been killed off.
The transfer of wealth now is reversed and the wealth now flows back to the country that destroyed
The competition that once existed in the importing country.

This makes sense for a strategic industry for example semi conductors. This is not the case for commodities which are sold world wide. Let us use the example of steel and sugar. Presume that there is no base steel smelting done in the United States or sugar production. There are dozens of countries that produce both commodities on the world market. In the case of sugar it is more efficient to grow cane in tropical climates than the United States. All of those countries will have to continue to compete. The same with steel. How can China raise steel prices if there are competing industries in Canada, Mexico, and Brazil,much less the rest of the world?

If you have concerns the United States has strategic stockpiles of most base materials needed for a conflict. If we lose a war it will not be because we ran out of steel.

 

[hfhmilkman]

Off the top if my head; the #1 terrorist organization in the world, and a scourge in a major chunk of the middle east, has been decimated, we are no longer going to be the ATM at which our NATO allies pay for their military, we got out of the stupid Paris accord, which was going to cost us more than any other country in the world, The two Koreas are talking to each other and there's at least the possibility of improved relations in that area, we have record low unemployment (especially in minorities) and near record high consumer confidence. As to the tax cuts, the roughly 20,000 non-exempt employees in our company who got bonuses and hourly raises tied specifically to the reduction in corporate taxes laugh at your talking-point driven "tax cut for the rich". Measurements of who gets what in federal tax cuts cannot measure the effect of lower corporate taxes on wage growth or employment growth. So they ignore it. But it's real.

And if anyone abdicated our leadership position in the world, it was the President who went around telling everyone in the world that we were really not that special, not that exceptional.

Now, I fully expect that you will counter everything said above. Go for it.

I will take a shot. Though I will point out you did not itemize Obama's greatest failures. My personal take is Obama is just a democratic Trump, just a more polite one but equally foolish and authoritarian.

ISIS was never a threat to the United States. Unlike Al Qaida the original agenda of ISIS was to rule locally unlike Al Qaida which was to go to war. Other than a few local inspired attacks indistinguishable from our base level domestic violence there has been nothing. Furthermore, the policies that have caused the demise of ISIS were implemented or at least approved by Obama. ISIS was well on its way out by the time Trump was elected. If you disagree please list a policy change that deviated from Obama. The item I am observing is Trump may betray the Kurds who did the dirty work for us. Assad is by far the more virulent murderer than ISIS could ever be. They are just small timers.

North Korea has made no concrete concessions and said nothing further that they have said before. North Korea in my opinion is a classic case of Sorelian myth by a populist. You are foolish enough to believe that there is some kind of breakthrough when nothing has changed. In exchange for a presidential meeting and the cancelling of military exercises North Korea gave up nothing.

The Paris accords are another example of Sorelian myth created by Progressives. Please tell me the difference between signing an accord and intentionally ignoring it verses not signing it. The end result is one is not following the accord. The Paris accords are an attempt by Progressive Populists to give the appearance they are doing something meaningful about global warming without doing anything. So who cares if we do not go along with the charade. Because it was Obama's, nixing it cost nothing.

I personally do not mind the tax cuts, but like the Bush Jr era tax cuts were foolish without reducing spending. Our economy was at full employment and did not need a stimulus. As an angry Tea Party member or I should say former Tea Party member I am angry at this betrayal.

But don't get me on ObamaCare. Trump did not run on repeal. He ran on replace. This gave law makers the cover to go against TrumpCare. Only at the end did Trump change to repeal and it was too late.

In terms of NATO expenditures nothing other than symbolic changes have been made to budgets. Yet Trump will declare victory because of someone saying they will stop the decrease.

I'm not saying Obama was great. He was disaster, on both domestic and foreign policy. But replacing him with his mirror image is no better. What scares me is the Progressives are going more extreme and now we will have the potential of an even crazier President next term.

 

[rgc7]

This makes sense for a strategic industry for example semi conductors. This is not the case for commodities which are sold world wide. Let us use the example of steel and sugar. Presume that there is no base steel smelting done in the United States or sugar production. There are dozens of countries that produce both commodities on the world market. In the case of sugar it is more efficient to grow cane in tropical climates than the United States. All of those countries will have to continue to compete. The same with steel. How can China raise steel prices if there are competing industries in Canada, Mexico, and Brazil,much less the rest of the world?

If you have concerns the United States has strategic stockpiles of most base materials needed for a conflict. If we lose a war it will not be because we ran out of steel.

 

[rgc7]

You are correct about sugar. During WWll we had rationing of many commodities and sugar was one of them.
Yes we do have stock piles, but how big and how many , I have no idea, perhaps you know more than I
About those stock piles ?
One thing I do know that if a country runs out of commodities necessary for the War Effort, that country
Will be greatly handicapped and will most likely lose a conventional war. Knowing that China has a great steel producing capacity is not very comforting. If any country scares me to death, it is China !
The other thing of great concern to me is the “ Demise “ of our assembly lines that quickly were converted for automobile production to the production of military equipment. not only for our own military
But also for the armed forces of all our allies. We were the “Arsenal of the World “ .
Without our mass production capacity and strategic raw materials, our allies in Europe may have lost WWll, long before we officially entered the War ?
We have now lost most of that heavy industry mass production capacity.

 

[justified1]

You are correct about sugar. During WWll we had rationing of many commodities and sugar was one of them.
Yes we do have stock piles, but how big and how many , I have no idea, perhaps you know more than I
About those stock piles ?
One thing I do know that if a country runs out of commodities necessary for the War Effort, that country
Will be greatly handicapped and will most likely lose a conventional war. Knowing that China has a great steel producing capacity is not very comforting. If any country scares me to death, it is China !
The other thing of great concern to me is the “ Demise “ of our assembly lines that quickly were converted for automobile production to the production of military equipment. not only for our own military
But also for the armed forces of all our allies. We were the “Arsenal of the World “ .
Without our mass production capacity and strategic raw materials, our allies in Europe may have lost WWll, long before we officially entered the War ?
We have now lost most of that heavy industry mass production capacity.

Remember that the US re-tooled to supply the world. However retooling will not be an option after any nuclear exchange. And we ought cut back on sugar anyway it is second to radiation as bad for our teeth.
You could stock up on Mountain Dew.

 

[rgc7]

Remember that the US re-tooled to supply the world. However retooling will not be an option after any nuclear exchange. And we ought cut back on sugar anyway it is second to radiation as bad for our teeth.
You could stock up on Mountain Dew.

 

[rgc7]

No one can even begin to argue about the devistating consequences of a nuclear exchange. It
Will make the Earth just about uninhabitable if not completely, certainly if those countries that are
Hit.

That is why is absolutely necessary to be so strong with both our nuclear deterrent as well as our conventional armed forces.
You are certainly correct about sugar from a healt perspective !

 

[ivan brunetti]

Indianapolis' Christ Church Cathedral makes a statement about ICE:

 

[justified1]

What confuses one about ‘illegals’ going to court to say they are targets of illegal practices?

 

[justified1]

How about a Law that says that before you can argue for due process, or go to a U.S. court, if you are not in the country legally that you must 1st make yourself a legal resident or guest on visa. Else: gtfo.

 

[Quest4Twelve]

All true but he's clearly a racist sexist homophobe who needs to die... along with all other republicans!

Not all true. The offense campaign started before the Trump administration and continued under Trump.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...p/trump-takes-full-credit-gains-against-isis/