How many would like the option of playing in the ACC Championship
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I think ND belongs in the ACC for all sports including football. One loss would not end the season. Could be Division.....or Conference champs.
Give up independence .No ,not at this time . I like the national schedule. If we joined ,we would. play 8 ACC games plus Southern California ,plus Navy,plus a Big 10 game (Purdue a long time rival or MSU, or Northwestern ?). Locked in year and year out with basically the same schedule .Only 1 game of wiggle room ,probably a smaller D1 school like Massachusetts ,etc.Ugly ,no chance to play Texas,Georgia, Oklahoma ,maybe an LSU ,Tennessee ,etc
Unless the football landscape changes dramatically, why join ? The reason most give ; ,it is chance to get an invite to the final 4 if you win the ACC conference championship . Don't buy that ,Ohio St ,at least 1 SEC team , Possible PAC 12 like USC,possible Big 12 Baylor ,Oklahoma ,TCU..
Unless the football landscape changes dramatically, why join ? The reason most give ; ,it is chance to get an invite to the final 4 if you win the ACC conference championship . Don't buy that ,Ohio St ,at least 1 SEC team , Possible PAC 12 like USC,possible Big 12 Baylor ,Oklahoma ,TCU..
I'm a fan of facts. And the facts we have say that teams that win a conference championship and look goods through the season. Are 4 for 4 to be selected for the play off. And teams that look good for the season. And play some of their best ball of the year at the end of it. But don't have a conference championship game. Are 0 for 1 at being selected. Even if they are called a champion. And the committee has already stated that the 4 team won't change until renegotiation of the contract. Which is 10 years down the road.
Do I prefer that? Nope. But that is the reality of college football.
Do I prefer that? Nope. But that is the reality of college football.
When the playoffs expand conference championship will not mean as much
ND is already part of the ACC. Even for football, you are a 5/8ths member. You play 5 ACC tams per year on a rotating basis. ND will play UNC more often in football than FSU or Clemson will.
This issue is whether it is better long term for all of ND sports for ND football to make the plunge into deep waters. That means being 8/8ths rather than 5/8ths.
There are upsides and downsides for ND in going full member in football. I am confident that the upsides are greater. I think it a matter of time when ND's administration agrees.
And I am confident that at latest, the first time ND plays in the ACC championship game in football, virtually all opposition to being in a conference for football will vanish. I say that having lived through the rather violent opposition to ND going to bowls. It evaporated almost totally with the 1st Cotton Bowl and totally by the 2nd. Oppositon to bowls was every bit as fierce and deep and wide as oppositon to conference football is now.
So just at least 10 years of limbo. And then see if they decide to change it? Seems like a poor strategy.
ND has maintained their independence for football as much as they can. ND has prided themselves on being independent and playing a national schedule. I think that viewing the decision as one of joining the ACC just to get access the the conference championship is an oversimplified view of the dynamics at play but ultimately any talk of playing in the ACC championship game starts with the premise that ND is in the ACC.
That being said if the Big 12 had not had co-champs last year and either TCU or Baylor were Big 12 champions I think they are in. The committee punting on the issue of which Big 12 team do you pick out of the co-champs was made easy because of the way Ohio St. closed. If either team had been put forth by the Big12 as the champ I think they would have gotten in over OSU.
You don't play all the teams in the conference though. You play all the teams in your division and maybe a couple of teams from the other division. And then decide from those records who the division champs are and they play one another.
Ah. I thought maybe you were thinking of like conferences that use a round robin approach.
The little 12 is the only one still on that system. And there is a headline out this week stating they are working on having a CCG again with a round robin. Since they only have 10 teams.
And the reason for the CCG is the draw and the media of it. Not that it is a good thing. But it is what it is. It offers another chance for fans to see their team play against what is most likely going to be another top 25 team in a neutral location. And it sells tickets and advertising like no ones business.
I'm not saying this is what is best for student athletes. But it is where we find the sport today
The little 12 is the only one still on that system. And there is a headline out this week stating they are working on having a CCG again with a round robin. Since they only have 10 teams.
And the reason for the CCG is the draw and the media of it. Not that it is a good thing. But it is what it is. It offers another chance for fans to see their team play against what is most likely going to be another top 25 team in a neutral location. And it sells tickets and advertising like no ones business.
I'm not saying this is what is best for student athletes. But it is where we find the sport today
Yes, I'm fully aware of why conference championship games exist. Not a fan of divisions either.
The new ACC backed rule change will deregulate how conferences select teams for their Championship Game. Divisions will no longer be required, which menas no more required divisional round robin.
If ND were to come in fully for footbal, the ACC will remain at 15 - unless a really Big name wants to come in as #16. Really Big name means schools like Texas, Penn State. The only exception to that will be if ND demands to have Navy as a football member. Then Navy gets in for football (and lacrosse and perhaps baseball).
If you have 15 teams, and play 8 league games, the best way to get esveryone playing everyone, and thus keeping elague schedules fresh as freash can be, each team gets 2 Annual riivals. That would leave a total of 12 league members yopu do noit play annually, which means you have the perfect 2 Annual + 6 (+6) scheduling. Each team would play 2 teams every year and the other 12 teams twice over 4 years.
If I am Swarbrick, here are the demands I make to get serious about negotiations to move to that:
1. ND's 2 Annual rivals are Pitt and Syracuse. Pitt because of history and location and Cuse because of location. Cuse also would have to agree to play all its Home games against ND in the NYC TV market, either at Giants Met Life or Yankee Stadium. Cuse must play in NYC ofetn to become 'New York's team', and ND need sto be there often to keep the largest TV fan base in NYC for colllege football Irish.
2. Dook and Wake Forest both agree to help ND play nationally by agreeing to play thier Home games vs. ND at off campus sites amenable to both schools. Dook and Wake both have small stadiums, which over flowing for an ND game every 4th year will remain teeny and rarely filled. Each program will benefit more from barnstorming with ND to areas where they hope tp recruit, football players and top students. Dook has huge basketball drawing power in DC/Baltimore, Philly, and NYC, and should be happy to play ND in any of those markets. Wake needs to recruit in Jacksonsville and Tampa Bay FL, DC/Baltimore. Both Dook and Wake recruit top students and student athletes of many sports in DFW, Houston, St Louis.
If the above are agreed to, then ND will continue to play nationally. Navy will play its Home games vs. ND anywhere from Dublin to Philly to New Orleans to San Diego to San Fran to Seattle. ND also can play half of its Home games vs ND away from Sout Bend, anywhere really: Houston, Kansas City, Nashville, Detroit, Chicago.
I gotta ask. How would that work. What would be left that is Indy? The TV rights? And bowl winnings? So basically you are an ACC member unless we are talking money?
And on that note I have to believe that between the current ACC ESPIN agreement and any possible ND / ACC - NBC contract the money will make itself right. That could be a HUGE platform for the NBCSports channel
The "what if" was just to see if any of those opposed to joining the ACC would relent if they had the opportunity to play in the ACCCG and still call themselves "Independent". One thing about it.........the chances of ND making it into the final 4 without playing a 13th game are slim and none..........mostly none. The present system is geared towards conference winners.
Or they will mean more? With eight teams, the Big 5 conference champs will have automatic berths. There will be guaranteed at-large berths most likely, but that becomes a crapshoot.
This is absolutely logical, of course, as the 5 big conferences will only agree to a system that favors their conference chances. As far as the conferences are concerned whoever gets an invitation outside of the conferences is of no particular importance. Regardless of the playoff system chosen the emphasis will always be on the conferences.
The BB team seemed to enjoy playing in and winning the ACC BB conference title. I don't know if the FB team would feel the same way. Maybe not.
We play Georgia Tech the 2nd game of the year after the open vs. Texas - Geo Tech gets to play two palookas ahead of ND and really only has to concentrate on ND and not the other two palookas in Fall Camp - teams in the ACC because of the bogus championship get to really soften the schedule - you could argue then it would be easier road to play for an ACC birth and schedule palookas!
It wasn't important to them. That cheering you saw and celebrating was just for the cameras.
Piggy backing on what you said about the Big 12 not having a co-champs, if FSU doesn't go 13-0, would the committee have not put the ACC champs in and in place put the Big 12 winner in? I think the NCAA would rather have had Baylor or TCU instead of FSU.
Agreed, I think it is a bit premature to say the system favors "X" when we have only seen one cycle.
Winning the ACC BB title wasn't important for the ND bb team? I'll have to remember that.
Just two year's ago ESPN and Forbes were writing the ACC's obituary.
And now Notre Dame's future is somehow at risk if we don't fully join for football?
Not buying it.
And now Notre Dame's future is somehow at risk if we don't fully join for football?
Not buying it.
Negative. That ACC champ had to be undefeated this year. Mainly due to so many 4 quarter rallies, including against Clemson, ND, and anyone else in the top 30.
Sometimes being undefeated isn't enough, and the playoff committee said as much during their press conferences last year when FSU would slip. I still think they earned their way into the playoff. But it is what it is.
Notre Dame "palookas" IN 2015 =
Sep. 26 UMass
Oct. 10 Navy
Oct. 31 Temple
Nov. 14 Wake Forest
People who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones.
Forbes is stupid enough to have believed it, but ESPN is not. ESPN knows that it requires major regualr season basketball in the East, and that the Big East was going to be permanently demoted. No matter how much the old ESPN would have loved to see the ACC gutted at the expense of the BE, that was never going to happen.
I would guess that none of you ND fans know that in 1998, when word first went out to the early internet that Miami was - unofficailly - petitioning the ACC to join as #10, BE comissioner Mike Tranghese offered to allow the ACC to have the first four BE football members - BC, Syracuse, Pitt, and Miami - for football season. The offer was made because Tranghese and the entire BE office knew that Miami woudl leave as sson as the ACC offered, and the other 3 and VT and WVU all would follow Miami to the ACC if given an offer. So to save BE basketball, which to remain what it had been required Syracuse and greatly needed Pitt and BC, the BE made the strangest offer in college sports history.
ESPN has always known all of that, including that at some point the BE would lose football and thus become a mid-major basketball league. So any ESPN talk about the ACC going down would have been to stir ACC action to get with the show and expand toward 16. And get ND on board.
ND's football future is not in any serious risk if it fails to go full member in ACC football within 5 years or so. The issue is actually bigger than that. It is whether all of ND sports become better set for the future if football makes the move.
As I have said above, I think it in inevitable that ND will make the move. The matter is when. And I think ND is best served by making the move earlier than later, because earlier means ND has major leverage and can get 'consessions' that it might not get otherwise.
I can only see this happening when CFB goes to 13 regular season games and ND is allowed to sked 5 non conference foes. USC and Navy are first tier. Big 10 would have to round it out after that for the local recruits.
I assume you think we must go to 13 regular season games because then ND would srtill have 5 OOC games. But I don't think that is the case.
ND football definitely must keep up its stature as a national program. But it can do that playing 8 ACC games, if, as I have noted abovem it gets agreements to become a full member that have certain ACC schools help it play a national schedule by going barnstorming with ND.
First, let emphasize that ND has 0 need to erver play a Big ten team. Because South Bend is where it is geographiclaly, all ND's midwest needs are met by ND playiong 6 Home games per year. The foes at ND do not matter - if the games are in South Bend, ND's midwest needs are met.
Second, ND would play SC every year and so meet its southern CA needs.
Third, it is not required, for example, that ND play a team from TX every few years. What ND needs greatly is to play a game in TX every few years. That means that ND playing Navy in Houston or Dook in the JerryDome will meet its TX needs. Likewise, it is not required that ND play a game every few years against a team from northern CA. ND playing Navy or Dook in San Fran every few years will meet ND's northern CA needs. The same logic holds for any ND 'needs' to play in the Rockies or New Orleans or MO or Detroit or Philadelphia or Baltimore/DC.
With that in mind, if ND gets Syracuse annually and Cuse agrees to play all its Home games vs. ND in Giants Stadium (and Cuse needs that at least as much as ND does), then all ND's NYC area needs are met.
Navy will play ND anywhere. If ND plays half its Home games vs. Navy as Shanrock Series games off campus, every 4 years ND will play Navy at sites of campus. That means that over a period of 8 years, ND could play Navy at these cities: Philly, New Orleans, Houston, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle.
If Dook and Wake agree, as I suggested above should be an ND demand to go full member in ACC football, to play all their Home games vs. ND at neutral sites, then over 8 years ND would play them a total of 4 times neutral sites. So ND could add to its 8 year list of playing nationally these cities: Cleveland, St Louis, Dallas, and Kansas City.
Now let's focus on OOC games. Assiume that ND plays 1 OOC each year that is not a Home- Away, to get a Home game and a fairly easy W. That would mean that over the 8 year period, ND plays 4 teams OOC Home-Away. Those 4 could be Stanford, Texas, Michigan St, and Arizona St.
That scheduling would have ND playing all over the country and able to play in the ACC Championship Game. It actually would be the best of both worlds.
Woad Blue,
Everything you've said makes good sense. You make a case for ND playing all over the country while being a full member of the ACC in football. Keep in mind that if ND then qualified for the ACCCG that means it would be traveling yet again in a regular season 13th game. Right now that would be in Charlotte, NC. However, there is talk of moving the game back to the State of Florida if the attendance would warrant it. At any rate, it would give ND another chance to do some out of state recruiting before traveling yet again for a bowl game (14th game) out of state. In that scenario ND would end up playing 6 or 7 games out of state in front of some very big crowds in areas that are chock full of highly ranked recruits. Not a bad scenario......not bad at all!
The only reason I can imagine ND fans objecting to that scenario is because they prefer a static football program with no changes. Meanwhile, other changes to the program are already happening. Hummmm.
Same argument I have been saying for three years here. Glad to see others with the same view point
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