I'm fine with pointing several fingers at the entire program. The culture is defined by what is tolerated over 50 or more years, not the past of the coach they hired. It's fake equivalence to use Kim Dunbar and Cam Newton in one sentence.
Urban Meyer fired
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Well NC State, Minnesota, Arkansas, Notre Dame, and South Carolina were all found to have violated NCAA rules while under the leadership of Holtz. that is a lot of culture.
But the whole point of the thread was whether Urban could be hired given his record. The suggestion was that SC would be fine becuase of its culture as illutrated by Pete, but ND would never hire a coach with prior issues. Do you see how Lou figures into that argument?
USCs record the previous 5 years to Carrol was 31-29, basically, .500 team.
Carrol, a failed HC of several teams in the NFL comes in and ALL OF A SUDDEN becomes a GENIUS! Wins 10, 11, 12 win seasons for most of his 10 years, Rose Bowl wins, Nat'l Titles (2). Who inside the University is going to look into his ways and means and methods that made him, all of a sudden, become a giant in the coaching industry? ? ?
Who might have the guts to point out steroid use, or helping kids with their exams, or money payments, houses, and literally (insert OJ ref here) live to tell about it?
As an aside, I wonder what those players, at that time, earned, as Degrees? haha
Here's more from your bleacher report, obviously the bastion of credibility when they said,
"Holtz was also overseeing the Notre Dame Football team when they were caught distributing steroids in the locker room during the late 80’s and early 90’s. The NCAA allowed the Irish to handle the matter internally, but there is no way Holtz was unaware of all that was going on with his program.
1. Who is they(?) who were supposedly distributing steroids? Do you know bleacher report? Do you know beach?
2. And is there validation that the NCAA had proof of this? lol But they let ND handle it internally. This is garbage you want to bring here beach, not fact. Rumor.
But you know what isn't rumor? Pete Carrol allowed a murderer to come visit and have fun with his team.
Now more from your Bible, Bleacher Report:
Reggie Bush was the first big story to break during the recent wave of college football scandal.
Bush and his family accepted benefits worth more than $100,000 dollars from sports marketing agents while he was at USC.
The family was provided with $54,000 in rent-free living at an agent’s $750,000 mansion, $28,000 to settle a previous debt, and weekly payments of $1,500 for various expenses.
As a result Reggie Bush had to relinquish his Heisman Trophy and USC was stripped of their 2004 BCS championship. The Trojans have also been put on two years of probation along with a two-year bowl ban. The final part of the punishment is a docking of 30 scholarships over the next 3 years.
Huhl? Of course Reggie violated NCAA rules. Have I ever argued he didn't? As I pointed out no one ever alleged PC knew. For sanctions against the school other than forfieting game someone on staff has to know. The only staff member the NCAA alleged was aware was Todd McNair. They gave him a show cause, he sued, they then gave him a seven figure settlement. The case was handled by one of the best attorneys I have ever met or litigated against, Bruce Broillet, a Notre Dame grad.
I am not sure why you can't understand my point, which was never that SC was perfect or ND ws bad, but that it is hypocritical for fans to attack SC for NCAA violations while revering Holtz, one of the most prolific violators in NCAA history.
As to your questions,other then noting the NCAA often lets schools handle there own violations by self imposing penalties and/or agreeing to futre changes, I have no idea. I suspect that since steriods were shot oin the locker room they made an assumption that the coach may have known, but I don't know for sure. What was your evidence that Pete knew of Reggie's actions?
You could google the NCAA violations individually and get your answers, but since they have nothing to do with my point, I don't plan to. He did escape probation when he coached William and Mary so there that, although at no other school he coached. If you want to beleive that the NCAA went after Lou at all those schools I mentioned without any evidence or reason it is fine with. it is fine with me.
To be fair, just has Pete denied knowledge so did Lou. This from the New York Times:
Notre Dame said today that five football players had tested positive for steroid use in the past three years, but Coach Lou Holtz denied published allegations by a former player that steroid use was widespread and that he must have known about it.
''I totally deny unequivocally everything that was written,'' Holtz said at a news conference.
He also denied allegations in a Sports Illustrated story written by a former Irish lineman, Steve Huffman, that two assistant coaches had suggested players use steroids.
Athletic Director Richard Rosenthal said the players who tested positive were disciplined. He declined to identify them or to say whether any of them were dismissed from the football program or from school.
Yea, and because ND is ND, and a Catholic University, they will be scrutinized much closer by many, because they are a Catholic institution. That's been a real thing as far as bias for years, and actual hatred for many many years. It still is. They are scrutinized at a higher level because their standards of beliefs and behaviors are set at a higher standard - for themselves. Non-Catholics would not admit this bias and hatred, but Catholics know this inside and outside of sports. A good Catholic football team? Faaagetaboudit.
Anti-Catholic has been a real thing for a very very long time. This was a Protestant country since the beginning. Catholics were barely tolerated when they first came here in numbers. Notre Dame has been revered and hated at the same time, since their inception.
So there's that to contend with.
Steroids and sports starting in the mid-eighties were prevalent across the country and across sports. Could you say (honestly) USC was clean of steroids use during that time?
So how about his violations at other schools. Were the players making the allegations anti- catholic?
As to steroid use at SC during that period, I have no idea one way or the other.
Which of those schools were operating close to by the book before and after Lou got there? And about what got them on probation?
St Lou suspended his two offensive stars from Arkansas before their biggest bowl game, @#1 Oklahoma, for misconduct at a party He later sent two stars home from ND the night before a #1 vs #2 matchup, can you guess the opponent?
So if you want to use Holtz as a reason why ND could hire Meyer, feel free to balance the equation. It's not a trick question for me because I didn't follow Urban's off field career all the closely.
What are you talking about? Allegations...allegations mean nothing without proof. Aren't you a lawyer?
And as to steroid use, not turned out (or in). Since no one was outed on your campus, it's the old Don't ask; Don't tell.
Yes just allegations like in SC’s case. Allegations that the NCAA investigated and found to be true at every campus where he coached every z William and Mary.
What were the allegations you are so proud to announce and so sure to be true, about a Notre Dame fan favorite and on a Notre Dame message board/website? Please list them, "Mr. Innocent I'm only the messenger. I love Notre Dame."
The NCAA found them to be true. I have no idea, Just as you have no idea about the allegation that Pete knew about Reggie, one that the NCAA didn't even make, is truw. As I said above if you are interested in the specifics, look them up yourself.
As I have said several times now my point was not that any allegations against anyone were true, but rather that it is hypocritical for a fan base that hired a coach with muiltiple alleged violations and had others at ND to attack another program based on alleged violations.
As I have said several times now my point was not that any allegations against anyone were true, but rather that it is hypocritical for a fan base that hired a coach with muiltiple alleged violations and had others at ND to attack another program based on alleged violations.
The school is more than the coach.
Reverse the question and ask if it is Pete Carrol's fault that SC gave illegal benefits.
OK. It is not Pete's fault that Loyd Lake gave Reggie's parents illegal benefits with out his knowldege to induce Reggie to leave SC early and go to the NFL.
TY. I always thought that round of sanctions was a punishment of Trojan culture + winning too much instead of who told Carrol what&when.
I'm a bit surprised that Bama never received the same treatment as the Tide has won more and concealed less.
Why should I look them up? You come here to a Notre Dame message board spouting on about these accusations about a NDHC with a statue in his honor outside the stadium, a fan favorite and yet you're here to trash him because of allegations that I would assume you must know, yet you don't want to say what they are. We have bandwagon fans, but at least they don't feign respect. You feign respect for the Irish by the very fact that you are here trashing Lou Holtz.
I don't really understand your belief that if someone has a statue they can do no wrong. The rest of your post is nonsence. I responded to a post saying that Pete s coaching proved that SC nad low standards. I replied that Holtz had multiple alleged violations, in fact more than almost any coach in history. As I have said it seems that fans inthat position shouldn't throw stones.
"Why should I look them up?' Well...becuase you asked what the allegations were. It seems to me if tyou want to know you should seek the information.
I do respect ND and also like Coach Holtz. If you choose to believe that isn't true, its up to you, I don't care..
Yeah, that was a weird one. I have no idea. I think it just illustrates how incompitent the NCAA is.
Notre Dame had a trifle of a violation. Holtz did not.
I believe the only thing proven that St Lou actually did was give a player $50 one time. Holtz never really cared if someone else wanted to pay a college football player and it looks like he was ahead of his time.
I believe the only thing proven that St Lou actually did was give a player $50 one time. Holtz never really cared if someone else wanted to pay a college football player and it looks like he was ahead of his time.
The above is a quote from Erik Underwood that appeared in an opinion piece.
The NCAA was never involved in the steroid issue so why would you state that they were and that the NCAA agreed to let ND handle it internally.
No other players came forward and substantiated Huffmans claim against Holrz.
And again the Dunbar case is about as flimsy of a case imaginable.
I don't see a quote. The reference to the NCAA was quoted from the Bleacher Report Article, I don't know what you mean by the NCAA was never involved, by rule the use would have to have been reported. Are you saying ND never complied with the rule? That seems unlikely.
My quote from the New York Times article states that players claimed Holtz knew. In that posgt I also mentioned Holtz denied the claim: Here is part of the article:
Notre Dame said today that five football players had tested positive for steroid use in the past three years, but Coach Lou Holtz denied published allegations by a former player that steroid use was widespread and that he must have known about it.
''I totally deny unequivocally everything that was written,'' Holtz said at a news conference.
He also denied allegations in a Sports Illustrated story written by a former Irish lineman, Steve Huffman, that two assistant coaches had suggested players use steroids.
Athletic Director Richard Rosenthal said the players who tested positive were disciplined. He declined to identify them or to say whether any of them were dismissed from the football program or from school.
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You can't resist but to keep on hammering it home that Holtz had ALLEGED violations. Who else but a dbag would come to a Notre Dame board and make about 8-9 posts, saying THE SAME THING over and over and over about alleged violations of a respected and honored coach of and by the University of Notre Dame, and it's fanbase? IMO? Only an ahole does that.
If you read the posts you will see that all but one are in response to people asking for sources, details or other information. My original statement was just that those who support Holtz should be careful about criticizing Pete, who wasn't even accused of a voilation, compared to someone who the NCAA found liable multiple times.
For example, a poster just before yours stated that no players had accused Holtz of knowing about steroid use. That wasn't true,as the article from the New York Times, as well as the Washington Post and Sports Illustrated, state.
I responded to posts questioning my earlier post and those questioning my responses.
As for the vulgarity, it says more about you than me.
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Just so I understand, you are saying Holtz never had any NCAA allegations levied against him?
Exactly my point. Wether you are talking about Pete or Lou. Also an NCAA violation does not mean a school has low standards.
At the moment you are most likely correct, but , hopefully , Meyer can get his life back on track ?
The Guy can certainly coach !
Beach, The Innocent! Nary a one, profane word has ever been uttered from his virgin vocal chords. (insert lmao at you, here).
Pete Carrol, Beach the Innocent's idol, was never accused of a violation, so obviously he didn't do a damn thing wrong. A history of losing before coming to usc and all of a sudden winning HUGE. hmmm...recruiting is the difference? How many reggie bush's (who got caught) are out there that didn't get caught in violations? Maybe no one had the character or morals to report things like they do at Notre Dame? I mean, a loser coach is suddenly King of College recruiting with no sins (oh yea, other than reggie bush). Under his watch, no violations and no one stepping up to report ANYTHING because he was winning! Oh wait, he caused the Univ. to give back a CFBNC and his player to give back a Heisman, and pinched for 30 schollies for a couple of years, but Beach the Innocent tells us he never was charged with violations...his ability to have his shields in place, his aides and his donors loving life. getting 10,11,12 win seasons. St. Pete!
I mean, aside from inviting a multiple homicide murderer to a meet and greet with his team, he's quite a guy.
“Reported” and “actively involved” are two distinctly different activities.
The NCAA was never involved in any manner, shape or form in any formal inquiry, investigation or official review of the Steroid issue.
I'm familiar with the articles, and other than Steve Huffman, who alleged that there was steroid use and that Holtz knew about it, no other player came forward and supported Huffman, who was paid to write his article.
Identify the players who claimed that Holtz knew about steroid use. !
You and I have different definitions of never involved. There was a rule violation, it was reported and the NCAA at ND’s request allowed ND to handled it internally. It is the most frequent response to a rule violation. But even if the NCAA was not involved it would be a violation, correct?
As to the players Huffman was one and the Times and Post articles mentioned others without naming them. If you think they made it, that is fine.
“Mentioned others WITHOUT naming them”
What a spurious accusation, one totally lacking in merit and substance
In other words NO named player supported or confirmed Huffman’s allegation/s.
I’m going to repeat what you refuse to accept, the NCAA NEVER SANCTIONED ND !
The NCAA was NEVER involved in any investigation concerning ND
AND, Holtz was NEVER the subject of any NCCA investigation !
That isn’t true. ND vacated wins, the steroids were just one claim. ND was placed in probation.
But otherwise I agree the allegations against USC and ND we’re unfounded. Thank you for acknowledging this. I don’t know about the other allegations against Holtz.
ND did NOT vacate games due to the Huffman steroid issue,
The vacated game issue involved two glaring errors, one by Father Jenkins and the other by the NCAA.
Error # 1. The NCAA deemed a student an employee of the University, an outrageous interpretation that should have been litigated.
Error # 2. Father Jenkins agreed to abide by the NCAA’s decision prior to the beginning of investigation.
Only a naive fool would make that agreement prior to the investigation.
A prudent person would wait until the outcome of the investigation prior to accepting or rejecting the decision.
I advised a trustee and advocated for the University to litigate the outcome and the trustee agreed with me, but Father Jenkins had made his premature and calamitous decision and wasn’t going to go back on his word no matter how flawed the NCAA’s decision was.
Ruling that a student is a University employee was abdurd, especially when viewed through the prism of the North Carolina case.
as to vacating wins, didn’t USC have to forfeit the National championship game and didn’t Bush have to forfeit his Heisman ?
They did vacate games because of things that happened under Holtz right? I mean no school who the NCAA allowed to handle an issue vacated games. I thought you would have understood that.
also the forfeited games were the fourth major violation of NCAA rules by ND.
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