Urban Meyer fired

[Weisnheimer]

I don't know what you are talking about.

But no facts about Pete knowing... I mean not even one?

You easily say petey didn't know facts, but don't you think it was a fact that Pete knew reggie got a place for his parents to stay?

This from Wikipedia:

NCAA investigation and lawsuits​

In 2006, reports surfaced raising questions about whether Bush's family received gifts in violation of NCAA policies. The school requested that the conference investigate the matter, and Bush denied any impropriety.

Sports agent Lloyd Lake sued Bush and his family in November 2007 in an effort to recoup $291,600 in cash and gifts. Lake also agreed to cooperate with the NCAA. In April 2009, the Los Angeles Times reported that the NCAA had merged its investigations of Bush and former USC basketball player O. J. Mayo into a single probe of the Trojans athletic programs. On December 28, 2009, it was announced that Bush had lost his bid for confidential arbitration in this matter and that the case would proceed to trial. The case was settled in April 2010.

On June 10, 2010, the NCAA announced major sanctions against USC. The NCAA found that Bush had received lavish gifts from Lake and his partner, Michael Michaels, from at least December 2004 onward, including a limousine ride to the 2005 Heisman Trophy presentation. As a result, USC was given four years of probation and forced to vacate its last two wins of the 2004 season – including the 2005 Orange Bowl – as well as all of its wins in the 2005 season. The Trojans were also banned from bowl games in 2010 and 2011 and lost 30 scholarships over three years. Running backs coach Todd McNair was banned from off-campus recruiting for one year after the NCAA determined he had known about Bush's dealings with the agents. McNair sued the NCAA for damages related to his dismissal and the NCAA lost. The judge in the case found the NCAA conducted the USC investigation and that of McNair with "malice". The NCAA also forced USC to disassociate itself from Bush.

The NCAA determined that, given Bush's high-profile status, USC should have invested more effort in monitoring Bush's relationships. In announcing the penalties, NCAA infractions committee chairman Paul Dee said, "High-profile players merit high-profile enforcement."

I think the ncaa saw the difference between a $12 breakfast and sexcapades, and Pete and your team violations based on the severe penalty differences.

 

[beachcardinal]

You easily say petey didn't know facts, but don't you think it was a fact that Pete knew reggie got a place for his parents to stay?

This from Wikipedia:

NCAA investigation and lawsuits​

In 2006, reports surfaced raising questions about whether Bush's family received gifts in violation of NCAA policies. The school requested that the conference investigate the matter, and Bush denied any impropriety.

Sports agent Lloyd Lake sued Bush and his family in November 2007 in an effort to recoup $291,600 in cash and gifts. Lake also agreed to cooperate with the NCAA. In April 2009, the Los Angeles Times reported that the NCAA had merged its investigations of Bush and former USC basketball player O. J. Mayo into a single probe of the Trojans athletic programs. On December 28, 2009, it was announced that Bush had lost his bid for confidential arbitration in this matter and that the case would proceed to trial. The case was settled in April 2010.

On June 10, 2010, the NCAA announced major sanctions against USC. The NCAA found that Bush had received lavish gifts from Lake and his partner, Michael Michaels, from at least December 2004 onward, including a limousine ride to the 2005 Heisman Trophy presentation. As a result, USC was given four years of probation and forced to vacate its last two wins of the 2004 season – including the 2005 Orange Bowl – as well as all of its wins in the 2005 season. The Trojans were also banned from bowl games in 2010 and 2011 and lost 30 scholarships over three years. Running backs coach Todd McNair was banned from off-campus recruiting for one year after the NCAA determined he had known about Bush's dealings with the agents. McNair sued the NCAA for damages related to his dismissal and the NCAA lost. The judge in the case found the NCAA conducted the USC investigation and that of McNair with "malice". The NCAA also forced USC to disassociate itself from Bush.

The NCAA determined that, given Bush's high-profile status, USC should have invested more effort in monitoring Bush's relationships. In announcing the penalties, NCAA infractions committee chairman Paul Dee said, "High-profile players merit high-profile enforcement."

I think the ncaa saw the difference between a $12 breakfast and sexcapades, and Pete and your team violations based on the severe penalty differences.

I don't see anything in there about Pete knowing. Could you please bold it. Why do you say Pete knew that Reggie had something to do with his parents house, or even where they lived?

 

[Weisnheimer]

I don't see anything in there about Pete knowing. Could you please bold it. Why do you say Pete knew that Reggie had something to do with his parents house, or even where they lived?

I never said it was in the wiki I just showed the contrast of penalties imposed and the difference in issues that the ncaa gave as significant against usc and not so much for ND. That says a whole lot in what they knew but couldn't prove but made up for when dishing out sanctions.

 

[beachcardinal]

I never said it was in the wiki I just showed the contrast of penalties imposed and the difference in issues that the ncaa gave as significant against usc and not so much for ND. That says a whole lot in what they knew but couldn't prove but made up for when dishing out sanctions.

When you wrote:

"You easily say petey didn't know facts, but don't you think it was a fact that Pete knew reggie got a place for his parents to stay?"

Made me think that would be the subject of the post.

I think one judges actions by thier nature. You have made it clear that you don't think stealing money and giving it to players one has sex with for trips, gifts etc or taking steroids is wrong. Peds must be ok unless the NCAA sanctions you right?

I just don't adopt that view.

Still don't understand the 619 reference. Could you explain that?

 

[tbonesays]

So had she not gone to a $12 breakfast, there would be no problem with anything she did on her own. Is that true? You want to rake Lou through the coal because he wasn't aware of this person who showed up for a breakfast, or that he may never have even gone to himself? smh Pete brings murderers to meet his team, but WHOA! We're talkin $12 Violations here!!

Did you know that in every school where Lou ever coached had someone declared a booster for spending $12 on breakfast. Every school except William & Mary. And that is only because cheese grits are never more than $3.

 

[beachcardinal]

So had she not gone to a $12 breakfast, there would be no problem with anything she did on her own. Is that true? You want to rake Lou through the coal because he wasn't aware of this person who showed up for a breakfast, or that he may never have even gone to himself? smh Pete brings murderers to meet his team, but WHOA! We're talkin $12 Violations here!!

Umm No it is still against the rules for players to accept gifts whether from a booster or not. And what the school should have been aware of was the large gifts. And if you read the NCAA report he was aware of it, he started an investigation and dropped it. That was a mojor concern of the NCAA,

I would suggest you read up on the rules of the NCAA and its investigation. I am judging from your post that you don't have access to google so here is a start from the Washington Post:

The NCAA placed Notre Dame, college football's most legendary school, on probation for the first time yesterday, imposing light penalties that "fit the crime," said infraction committee chairman Jack Friedenthal.

The Irish received a two-year probation and will lose one scholarship for each of the next two football seasons. Notre Dame, the only major college football team with its own network television contract, remains eligible for postseason bowls and its multimillion-dollar deal with NBC is not affected.

The penalties originate from a relationship between Irish players and a former athletic booster. She gave them gifts, meals, money and trips financed by some of the $1.2 million she embezzled from her employer in South Bend, Ind., where Notre Dame is located.

The university said it would not appeal the NCAA ruling.

"This is not a good day for Notre Dame," said the Rev. Edward A. Malloy, the university president, in a statement. "We are embarrassed by these incidents, troubled that they occurred, and we have taken action to deal with the issues involved. Whether these incidents are characterized as secondary or major, they happened, and that is unacceptable and a matter of the highest concern to us."

The infractions committee called the violations major and "neither isolated nor inadvertent." The NCAA cited the length of time during which the violations occurred, the extravagant nature of the gifts and the competitive advantage gained by Notre Dame.

Some of the allegations were uncovered by Notre Dame Coach Bob Davies last year, Malloy said. In addition to the allegations involving ex-booster Kimberly Dunbar, Notre Dame was found guilty of major violations concerning academic fraud, the sale of complimentary admissions by one player and a tutor providing meals, lodging and travel to four football players and three other Irish athletes.

The academic fraud case involved a football player who paid a university tutor $20 to $30 to write a paper for him, according to the report.

Dunbar, 30, who was released in October after serving more than a year in jail following her conviction for embezzlement, was dating Notre Dame players before she became a booster in June 1995 by joining the Quarterback Club. The violations occurred after that date.

The fact that Dunbar had a dating relationship with players factored into the determination of penalties, said Friedenthal, a law professor at George Washington University. The NCAA ruled that benefits bestowed on the players Dunbar was dating did not violate rules but those given to other players and their friends did.

A good portion of the committee's report addressed the issue of monitoring and accountability.

In 1994, before Dunbar became a booster, then-coach Lou Holtz was aware of Dunbar taking Irish wide receiver Derrick Mayes on a weekend trip to Las Vegas. The university dropped the matter after finding out Mayes was dating Dunbar. A "more complete investigation at that time might have precluded what later became a significant problem," the committee said.

Three years later, in the summer before Davies' first season as coach, Friedenthal said an assistant coach had a similar opportunity to uncover the violations after discovering that Dunbar had paid for a trip to Las Vegas for herself, two players and a player's girlfriend.

Without consulting athletic compliance officials, the former assistant coach concluded that there was no violation because Dunbar was dating one of the players.

"This was an error in judgment," the committee said. ". . . The failure on the part of the coaches suggested a lack of monitoring because of their failure to seek a more appropriate investigation."

But the committee did not punish Notre Dame for lack of monitoring "because at least some investigation was conducted by each coach, even if it was inadequate."

Although this marked the first time the Irish had been placed on probation, rules violations have surfaced at the school.

In 1993, the NCAA ordered Notre Dame to forfeit two scholarships after Demetrius DuBose improperly accepted gifts from a booster. The following year, the university reported itself to the NCAA after two former players, Bryant Young and Jeff Burris, were found living rent-free in an alumnus's off-campus apartment. The NCAA ruled that the infractions were secondary.

 

[tbonesays]

So had she not gone to a $12 breakfast, there would be no problem with anything she did on her own. Is that true? You want to rake Lou through the coal because he wasn't aware of this person who showed up for a breakfast, or that he may never have even gone to himself? smh Pete brings murderers to meet his team, but WHOA! We're talkin $12 Violations here!!

Umm No it is still against the rules for players to accept gifts whether from a booster or not. And what the school should have been aware of was the large gifts. And if you read the NCAA report he was aware of it, he started an investigation and dropped it. That was a mojor concern of the NCAA,

I would suggest you read up on the rules of the NCAA and its investigation.

It was really a stretch to declare that Kim Dunbar was a 'booster' when ND had no say in what she was doing, because they didn't really know she existed. But not as long a stretch to equate ND and SC in compliance.

 

[beachcardinal]

It was really a stretch to declare that Kim Dunbar was a 'booster' when ND had no say in what she was doing, because they didn't really know she existed. But not as long a stretch to equate ND and SC in compliance.

Well not according to the NCAA:

in 1994, before Dunbar became a booster, then-coach Lou Holtz was aware of Dunbar taking Irish wide receiver Derrick Mayes on a weekend trip to Las Vegas. The university dropped the matter after finding out Mayes was dating Dunbar. A "more complete investigation at that time might have precluded what later became a significant problem," the committee said.

Holtz not only knew about her, he knew she was giving gifts. When told she was the player's boyfriend he dropped the investigation. That was a big concern of the NCAA. It also wasn't a streth to find she was a booster, she fit the difinition perfectly.

 

[Weisnheimer]

This absolves Lou imo, right here in the first paragraph! "Before Dunbar became a booster". Then it says 3 years later. I'm assuming Lou was replaced before that summer when Davie took over because I doubt ND would wait until right before the season were to start, before naming Davie.

In 1994, before Dunbar became a booster, then-coach Lou Holtz was aware of Dunbar taking Irish wide receiver Derrick Mayes on a weekend trip to Las Vegas. The university dropped the matter after finding out Mayes was dating Dunbar. A "more complete investigation at that time might have precluded what later became a significant problem," the committee said.

Three years later, in the summer before Davies' first season as coach, Friedenthal said an assistant coach had a similar opportunity to uncover the violations after discovering that Dunbar had paid for a trip to Las Vegas for herself, two players and a player's girlfriend.

So it was Davie who was on the hook from some assistant coach's allegations about Dunbar paying for a trip for players and friends. It also doesn't say when that trip took place. Was it when Lou was there? Was it after he left? Sounds like Davie was at the helm for that trip as it implies 3 yrs after she was out of jail. So 1994 she's in jail and 3 years later is 1997. Lou is gone after 1996 season.

But you just keep googling articles of allegations against Lou because face it, you hate him. And I am remembering why your hate is so deep.

The "Enough Silliness" thread I started was because I was/am tired of arguing with a fool in this thread. And I brought up the memory of #1 vs. #2 ND-USC and Notre Dame kicked some SC ass. Rodney Peete, the Heisman wannabe had Frank Stams in his face all day. 27-10 Irish.

Mic drop. I'm done here.

 

[beachcardinal]

This absolves Lou imo, right here in the first paragraph! "Before Dunbar became a booster". Then it says 3 years later. I'm assuming Lou was replaced before that summer when Davie took over because I doubt ND would wait until right before the season were to start, before naming Davie.

In 1994, before Dunbar became a booster, then-coach Lou Holtz was aware of Dunbar taking Irish wide receiver Derrick Mayes on a weekend trip to Las Vegas. The university dropped the matter after finding out Mayes was dating Dunbar. A "more complete investigation at that time might have precluded what later became a significant problem," the committee said.

Three years later, in the summer before Davies' first season as coach, Friedenthal said an assistant coach had a similar opportunity to uncover the violations after discovering that Dunbar had paid for a trip to Las Vegas for herself, two players and a player's girlfriend.

So it was Davie who was on the hook from some assistant coach's allegations about Dunbar paying for a trip for players and friends. It also doesn't say when that trip took place. Was it when Lou was there? Was it after he left? Sounds like Davie was at the helm for that trip as it implies 3 yrs after she was out of jail. So 1994 she's in jail and 3 years later is 1997. Lou is gone after 1996 season.

But you just keep googling articles of allegations against Lou because face it, you hate him. And I am remembering why your hate is so deep.

The "Enough Silliness" thread I started was because I was/am tired of arguing with a fool in this thread. And I brought up the memory of #1 vs. #2 ND-USC and Notre Dame kicked some SC ass. Rodney Peete, the Heisman wannabe had Frank Stams in his face all day. 27-10 Irish.

Mic drop. I'm done here.

I have been responding to questions or untrue staments often made by posters who don't take the time to check the facts. All of this was in response to my post saying ND shouldn't critisize Pete's history in light of Lou. If you look everything after that came from challenges or questions from others. I never brought up NCAA violations, it was a response to some "cheatly Petey comment. I like Coach Lou. But that doesn't change the fact that he is one of the all-time NCAA violators. Not sure about this statment by you:

But you just keep googling articles of allegations against Lou because face it, you hate him. And I am remembering why your hate is so deep.

The "Enough Silliness" thread I started was because I was/am tired of arguing with a fool in this thread. And I brought up the memory of #1 vs. #2 ND-USC and Notre Dame kicked some SC ass. Rodney Peete, the Heisman wannabe had Frank Stams in his face all day. 27-10 Irish.

I have no idea what this means. Have you been drinking?

 

[tbonesays]

It also wasn't a streth to find she was a booster, she fit the difinition perfectly.

Because she paid dues to a small breakfast club? That net probably snares 1000 people who have no idea they could be a 'boosters'

 

[beachcardinal]

Because she paid dues to a small breakfast club? That net probably snares 1000 people who have no idea they could be a 'boosters'

I agree II is stupid rule, but yes. In this case however ND informed the group it was a booster club and part of normal monitoring would require it to tell its members.
Also since it was admitted that Holtz knew of Dunbar and that she had paid for a player to go to Hawaii it hardly matters. It is illegal for players to receive gifts from anyone, unless they have a preexisting relationship that predates their scholarship and involved similar gifts. All the booster thing does is add the monitoring.
Norte Dame to its credit did not dispute the findings including Holtz knowledge.
Most of this is in the Washington Post article posted above.

 

[Harpo Marxist]

Watching OJ Simpson standing on the USC sideline was enough for me to solidify my opinion of the program. Unforgivable....since USC has chosen not to publicly denounce his presence, or offer an apology to the victims' families.

 

[beachcardinal]

Watching OJ Simpson standing on the USC sideline was enough for me to solidify my opinion of the program. Unforgivable....since USC has chosen not to publicly denounce his presence, or offer an apology to the victims' families.

I understand. But it wasn’t the sideline. The team had a practice in Florida before a bowl game, he showed up uninvited and Pete shook his hand. I agree he shouldn’t have done that and OJ should have been asked to leave. It was not a television practice so where did you watch him standing on the sideline? Where you at the practice?

Also SC did restrict him, for example

USC wants no part of O.J. Simpson

The Juice is loose, just not at USC. Trojans head coach Clay Helton said Simpson is not welcome on the USC campus after his expected release from prison in early October. “Right now with USC, what …

nypost.com

 

[beachcardinal]

I understand. But it wasn’t the sideline. The team had a practice in Florida before a bowl game, he showed up uninvited and Pete shook his hand. I agree he shouldn’t have done that and OJ should have been asked to leave. It was not a televised practice so where did you watch him standing on the sideline? Where you at the practice?

Also SC did restrict him, for example

USC wants no part of O.J. Simpson

The Juice is loose, just not at USC. Trojans head coach Clay Helton said Simpson is not welcome on the USC campus after his expected release from prison in early October. “Right now with USC, what …

nypost.com

 

[Harpo Marxist]

I understand. But it wasn’t the sideline. The team had a practice in Florida before a bowl game, he showed up uninvited and Pete shook his hand. I agree he shouldn’t have done that and OJ should have been asked to leave. It was not a television practice so where did you watch him standing on the sideline? Where you at the practice?

Also SC did restrict him, for example

USC wants no part of O.J. Simpson

The Juice is loose, just not at USC. Trojans head coach Clay Helton said Simpson is not welcome on the USC campus after his expected release from prison in early October. “Right now with USC, what …

nypost.com

there was video of Pete Carroll shaking his hand...I am sure that part was hilighted...but it happened. If USC has indeed assumed a restriction of OJ and the program...that is certainly welcomed news.

 

[beachcardinal]

there was video of Pete Carroll shaking his hand...I am sure that part was hilighted...but it happened. If USC has indeed assumed a restriction of OJ and the program...that is certainly welcomed news.

Yes I think it was a still but you said you remembered him standing on the sideline. Where did that happen? The practice was open to the public but they were behind ropes as I recall. When was the sideline incident that you recall?
However I agree with you Pete should not have shaken his hand and OJ should have been asked to leave

 

[Harpo Marxist]

Yes I think it was a still but you said you remembered him standing on the sideline. Where did that happen? The practice was open to the public but they were behind ropes as I recall. When was the sideline incident that you recall?
However I agree with you Pete should not have shaken his hand and OJ should have been asked to leave

been too long ago to recall most details...except the handshake was unforgettable. The fact that this guy made his way through whatever security existed is in and of itself telling.

 

[beachcardinal]

been too long ago to recall most details...except the handshake was unforgettable. The fact that this guy made his way through whatever security existed is in and of itself telling.

The reason I asked was it sounded like you may have meant he was on the sideline at a game. That would have been much worse, because it would have required SC issuing a pass . What Pete did was wrong, although I don’t see how it can be held against the entire school.

As to security there may have been a couple of cops there but they would have no reason to stop OJ. This was on a practice field in Florida, not on campus

 

[Harpo Marxist]

"It's good to have him out here. At SC, our guys hold the Heisman Trophy winner in the highest regard. For them to get a chance to see him and visit with him was very special for them". .....said Pete Carroll to the media after the practice.

 

[beachcardinal]

"It's good to have him out here. At SC, our guys hold the Heisman Trophy winner in the highest regard. For them to get a chance to see him and visit with him was very special for them". .....said Pete Carroll to the media after the practice.

Yep as I said that was wrong of Pete

 

[BGI User 1596]

"It's good to have him out here. At SC, our guys hold the Heisman Trophy winner in the highest regard. For them to get a chance to see him and visit with him was very special for them". .....said Pete Carroll to the media after the practice.

Did he show them his knife?

 

[Patrirish]

I don't see anything in there about Pete knowing. Could you please bold it. Why do you say Pete knew that Reggie had something to do with his parents house, or even where they lived?

Where did Pete think that Reggie got his car from ?

 

[Patrirish]

Well not according to the NCAA:

in 1994, before Dunbar became a booster, then-coach Lou Holtz was aware of Dunbar taking Irish wide receiver Derrick Mayes on a weekend trip to Las Vegas. The university dropped the matter after finding out Mayes was dating Dunbar. A "more complete investigation at that time might have precluded what later became a significant problem," the committee said.

Holtz not only knew about her, he knew she was giving gifts. When told she was the player's boyfriend he dropped the investigation. That was a big concern of the NCAA. It also wasn't a streth to find she was a booster, she fit the difinition perfectly.

Not true, she was the exact opposite of a Booster.

Boosters seek access to the players, she already had access to the players and didn’t need to join a breakfast club to enhance her access

 

[tbonesays]

I understand. But it wasn’t the sideline. The team had a practice in Florida before a bowl game, he showed up uninvited and Pete shook his hand. I agree he shouldn’t have done that and OJ should have been asked to leave. It was not a television practice so where did you watch him standing on the sideline? Where you at the practice?

Also SC did restrict him, for example

USC wants no part of O.J. Simpson

The Juice is loose, just not at USC. Trojans head coach Clay Helton said Simpson is not welcome on the USC campus after his expected release from prison in early October. “Right now with USC, what …

nypost.com

Be consistent with your equivalency stretches. The correct response is Notre Dame shouldn't point fingers at OJ Simpson when Cierre Wood's child died due to over exercise. Carrol shaking hands isn't a problem since Wood was seen wearing an ND shirt.

Also OJ not knowing of he was welcome matters as much as Dunbar having no idea she was a booster

 

[BGI User 1596]

Be consistent with your equivalency stretches. The correct response is Notre Dame shouldn't point fingers at OJ Simpson when Cierre Wood's child died due to over exercise. Carrol shaking hands isn't a problem since Wood was seen wearing an ND shirt.

Also OJ not knowing of he was welcome matters as much as Dunbar having no idea she was a booster

Don’t squeeze the juice!

 

[Patrirish]

Not true. The definition of boster has been relatively unchanged for a long time. It is:

Boosters, referred to by the NCAA as “representatives of the institution’s athletic interests,” include anyone who has:

• Provided a donation in order to obtain season tickets for any sport at the university.
• Participated in or has been a member of an organization promoting the university’s athletics programs.
• Made financial contributions to the athletic department or to a university booster organization.
• Arranged for or provided employment for enrolled student-athletes.
• Assisted or has been requested by university staff to assist in the recruitment of prospective student-athletes.
• Assisted in providing benefits to enrolled student athletes or their families.
• Been involved otherwise in promoting university athletics.

No creative lawyring required, just the abilty toread. Coaches must pass a test on NCAA rules before coaching. Players must attend a class.

There was no creative history by me, what I said was accurate and referenced by source. You should look into getting the internet, then you wouldn't make obvious errors like your view of what a booster is.

Look at bullet point # 6

Now explain how USC was in the dark with regard to Reggie’s car !

 

[beachcardinal]

Well those points don’t apply since Lloyd Lake wasn’t booster but it is a rule violation for athletes to take gifts from anyone. How would the coaches know what car Reggie had other than the form all players have to fill out? Why would they be suspicious of a form showing he owned a used Impala?
And again the NCAA only alleged McNair knew something of Lake and ended paying as result of that allegation,

in Holtz’s case he knew of Dunbar and her gift and admitted playing a recruit at another school. He did deny his assistant coach’s statement that he tried to get him to lie about the payment though.
He also denied his former player’s statement that he knew about steroid use.

 

[Patrirish]

When you wrote:

"You easily say petey didn't know facts, but don't you think it was a fact that Pete knew reggie got a place for his parents to stay?"

Made me think that would be the subject of the post.

I think one judges actions by thier nature. You have made it clear that you don't think stealing money and giving it to players one has sex with for trips, gifts etc or taking steroids is wrong. Peds must be ok unless the NCAA sanctions you right?

I just don't adopt that view.

Still don't understand the 619 reference. Could you explain that?

Like a weasel, You’re conflating issues again, so let’s take each issue separately.

ISSUE # 1 Kim Dunbar.

1. Dunbar embezzling money has NOTHING to do with Notre Dame.
2. Dunbar‘s sexual activity has NOTHING to do with Notre Dame
3. Dunbar’s providing of gifts to boyfriends with whom she was intimate with has NOTHING to do
with Notre Dame.

All of The above activities were far beyond the institutional control of Notre Dame AND
only a scum bag lawyer would try to make the case that Kim Dunbar’s actions, independent and completely removed from Notre Dame’s authority and control, were Notre Dame’s responsibility and fault.

Since my daughter is an attorney I feel comfortable in providing my categorization.

ISSUE # 2 Steroid Use

1. Steroid use is wrong and against NCAA rules
2. Unlike USC, there was no institutional culpability on Notre Dame’s part.
3. Notre Dame self reported those infractions.

You alleged that Notre Dame had to vacate games under Holtz.
That was a total lie and you never owned up to lying.

But there’s another critical distinction.

Reggie Bush was an All-American, a Heisman candidate, a high profile player on a team in the national spotlight, and somehow his head coach is totally unaware of all of the benefits being provided to Bush and his family ?

It doesn’t pass the “smell test”.

I sense that the NCAA knew that when they handed out some fairly severe penalties and Pete fled to the North.

 

[Patrirish]

Well those points don’t apply since Lloyd Lake wasn’t booster but it is a rule violation for athletes to take gifts from anyone. How would the coaches know what car Reggie had other than the form all players have to fill out? Why would they be suspicious of a form showing he owned a used Impala?
And again the NCAA only alleged McNair knew something of Lake and ended paying as result of that allegation,

in Holtz’s case he knew of Dunbar and her gift and admitted playing a recruit at another school. He did deny his assistant coach’s statement that he tried to get him to lie about the payment though.
He also denied his former player’s statement that he knew about steroid use.

You’re conflating issues again, just like a typical scum bag lawyer, so

1. When did Holtz know about Dunbar
2. What did he know.
3. Is there any NCAA violation when a woman is having sex with a player ?
4. Is there any NCAA violation when a woman gives her player boyfriend gifts ?

And, Lake presented himself as an “agent”

Why would they be suspicious ?
You can’t be that obtuse.
USC was clearly guilty of “wink, wink, nod, nod“, you know it, I know it and everybody with a brain knows it !

 

[beachcardinal]

You’re conflating issues again, just like a typical scum bag lawyer, so

1. When did Holtz know about Dunbar
2. What did he know.
3. Is there any NCAA violation when a woman is having sex with a player ?
4. Is there any NCAA violation when a woman gives her player boyfriend gifts ?

And, Lake presented himself as an “agent”

Well according to the NCAA he knew it while he was coach. What he knew was that she paid for a trip to Hawaii. Yes there is an NCAA violation unless the person had a relationship which involved similar gifts before the boy friend with on scholarship. Also were all 12 players her boyfriends? No it is not against the rules to have sex.
Actually Lake formed a company with Bush which was completely illegal. But I have never said Bush didn’t break rules, he did.
What I did say was that the NCAA never even alleged that Pete knew, whereas Lou actions were admitted by him and the school.
And for a bonus the California Court of Appeal, found that the NCAA investigation said the NCAA actions were so biased they met the legal standard for malice.
Why don’t you read theNCAA report? It will save you a lot of questions.

 

[Patrirish]

Well according to the NCAA he knew it while he was coach. What he knew was that she paid for a trip to Hawaii. Yes there is an NCAA violation unless the person had a relationship which involved similar gifts before the boy friend with on scholarship. Also were all 12 players her boyfriends? No it is not against the rules to have sex.
Actually Lake formed a company with Bush which was completely illegal. But I have never said Bush didn’t break rules, he did.
What I did say was that the NCAA never even alleged that Pete knew, whereas Lou actions were admitted by him and the school.
And for a bonus the California Court of Appeal, found that the NCAA investigation said the NCAA actions were so biased they met the legal standard for malice.
Why don’t you read theNCAA report? It will save you a lot of questions.

You’re conflating again, which is a tactic that won’t work with me.

I asked you WHEN Holtz knew about Dunbar, give us the date, not a weasel like vague answer like “when he was the coach”. Give us the exact date. Context and sequencing are important

There is no NCAA violation when a girlfriend gives a boyfriend gifts.
The players weren’t her boyfriend, simultaneously, rather sequentially..
Yes, she was very active.
Where was she or her equivalent when I was there ?

You are being intellectually dishonest !

What actions of Lou’s were NCAA violations ?
What actions of Lou’s resulted in sanctions against Lou ?

Why did you keep insisting that ND had to vacate games under Lou due to NCAA sanctions against Lou and Notre Dame ?

Didn’t Lake allege that the coach/es and USC were aware of the violations related to Bush ?

 

[beachcardinal]

You’re conflating again, which is a tactic that won’t work with me.

I asked you WHEN Holtz knew about Dunbar, give us the date, not a weasel like vague answer like “when he was the coach”. Give us the exact date. Context and sequencing are important

There is no NCAA violation when a girlfriend gives a boyfriend gifts.
The players weren’t her boyfriend, simultaneously, rather sequentially..
Yes, she was very active.
Where was she or her equivalent when I was there ?

You are being intellectually dishonest !

What actions of Lou’s were NCAA violations ?
What actions of Lou’s resulted in sanctions against Lou ?

Why did you keep insisting that ND had to vacate games under Lou due to NCAA sanctions against Lou and Notre Dame ?

Didn’t Lake allege that the coach/es and USC were aware of the violations related to Bush ?

The date is in the Washington Post article posted above. Also posted above is the NCAA rule on preexisting relationships which does not have a girl friend exception and requires a relationship before the scholarship. Do you really think you can pay players if you say they are boyfriends?
Lake claimed McNair knew, not Pete and the NCAA paid for believing that claim in a lawsuit. The ncaa found that Lou should have investigated when he found out Dunbar paid for a trip to Hawaii.
There were no sanctions against Lou, Coaches are rarely sanctioned. The team was put on probation for actions under Lou.
If you won’t read the NCAA report at least read the posts.

 

[Patrirish]

The date is in the Washington Post article posted above. Also posted above is the NCAA rule on preexisting relationships which does not have a girl friend exception and requires a relationship before the scholarship. Do you really think you can pay players if you say they are boyfriends?
Lake claimed McNair knew, not Pete and the NCAA paid for believing that claim in a lawsuit. The ncaa found that Lou should have investigated when he found out Dunbar paid for a trip to Hawaii.
There were no sanctions against Lou, Coaches are rarely sanctioned. The team was put on probation for actions under Lou.
If you won’t read the NCAA report at least read the posts.

You stated that ND was forced to vacate games due to violations by Lou.

Did any of Lou’s actions cause ND to be put on probation ?

Referencing the “Paterno” case, wasn’t McNair obligated to report any violations, “up the chain of command” to the Head Coach ?

 

[beachcardinal]

You stated that ND was forced to vacate games due to violations by Lou.

Did any of Lou’s actions cause ND to be put on probation ?

Referencing the “Paterno” case, wasn’t McNair obligated to report any violations, “up the chain of command” to the Head Coach ?

You don’t like to read the thread you are posting on, so I will try to accumulate a few things in one place:

• Yes. McNair was required to report a violation to SC compliance and If he had done so Pete would have known. However, McNair Sid he didn’t know and that Lake, a convicted felon with a perjury conviction. was lying. The NCAA chose to believe Lake, McNair sued and was paid off by the NCAA. Also the California Court of Appeal found the investigation so flawed and biased that it met the legal standard for malice.
• Here is a summary of the preexisting rule determinations test

PRE-EXISTING RELATIONSHIP

FOUR-PART TEST

1. Did the relationship between the athlete (or athlete’s

parents) and the individual providing the benefit(s)

develop as a result of the athlete’s participation in

athletics or notoriety related thereto?

2. Did the relationship between the athlete (or the

athlete’s parents) and the individual providing the

benefit(s) predate the athlete’s status as a prospective

student-athlete?

3. Did the relationship between the athlete (or the

athlete’s parents) and the individual providing the

benefit(s) predate the athlete’s status achieved as a

result of his or her athletic ability and reputation?

4. Was the pattern of benefits provided by the individual

to the athlete (or athlete’s parents) prior to the athlete

attaining notoriety as a skilled athlete similar in nature to

those provided after attaining such stature?

If you answered NO to questions 1, and YES to

questions 2, 3, 4 then there is an established relationship

with the athlete.

However, if you answer differently for any of the four

questions, then by NCAA rules, there is NO pre-existing

relationship and thus it is impermissible for you to

provide any prefer

Note there is no boyfriend question. Dumbar clearly doesn’t met the test.

• “Like a weasel, You’re conflating issues again,”. Weasels don’t conflate.
• According to the Lincoln Star Journal at last count, more than 30 NCAA violations as coach
• Norte Dame, to its credit, did not dispute the findings including Holtz knowledge of Dunbar taking a players to Hawaii.
• Yes the NCAA place ND on probation and took away scholarships based on Lou’s actions:

The NCAA placed Notre Dame, college football's most legendary school, on probation for the first time yesterday, imposing light penalties that "fit the crime," said infraction committee chairman Jack Friedenthal.

The Irish received a two-year probation and will lose one scholarship for each of the next two football seasons. Notre Dame, the only major college football team with its own network television contract, remains eligible for postseason bowls and its multimillion-dollar deal with NBC is not affected.

The penalties originate from a relationship between Irish players and a former athletic booster. She gave them gifts, meals, money and trips financed by some of the $1.2 million she embezzled from her employer in South Bend, Ind., where Notre Dame is located.

The university said it would not appeal the NCAA ruling.

• "This is not a good day for Notre Dame," said the Rev. Edward A. Malloy, the university president, in a statement. "We are embarrassed by these incidents, troubled that they occurred, and we have taken action to deal with the issues involved. Whether these incidents are characterized as secondary or major, they happened, and that is unacceptable and a matter of the highest concern to us."
• The infractions committee called the violations major and "neither isolated nor inadvertent." The NCAA cited the length of time during which the violations occurred, the extravagant nature of the gifts and the competitive advantage gained by Notre Dame.
• Some of the allegations were uncovered by Notre Dame Coach Bob Davies last year, Malloy said. In addition to the allegations involving ex-booster Kimberly Dunbar, Notre Dame was found guilty of major violations concerning academic fraud, the sale of complimentary admissions by one player and a tutor providing meals, lodging and travel to four football players and three other Irish athletes.
• The academic fraud case involved a football player who paid a university tutor $20 to $30 to write a paper for him, according to the report.
• 
  
• Dunbar, 30, who was released in October after serving more than a year in jail following her conviction for embezzlement, was dating Notre Dame players before she became a booster in June 1995 by joining the Quarterback Club. The violations occurred after that date.
• The fact that Dunbar had a dating relationship with players factored into the determination of penalties, said Friedenthal, a law professor at George Washington University. The NCAA ruled that benefits bestowed on the players Dunbar was dating did not violate rules but those given to other players and their friends did.
• A good portion of the committee's report addressed the issue of monitoring and accountability.
• In 1994, before Dunbar became a booster, then-coach Lou Holtz was aware of Dunbar taking Irish wide receiver Derrick Mayes on a weekend trip to Las Vegas. The university dropped the matter after finding out Mayes was dating Dunbar. A "more complete investigation at that time might have precluded what later became a significant problem," the committee said.
• Three years later, in the summer before Davies' first season as coach, Friedenthal said an assistant coach had a similar opportunity to uncover the violations after discovering that Dunbar had paid for a trip to Las Vegas for herself, two players and a player's girlfriend.
• Although this marked the first time the Irish had been placed on probation, rules violations have surfaced at the school.

In 1993, the NCAA ordered Notre Dame to forfeit two scholarships after Demetrius DuBose improperly accepted gifts from a booster. The following year, the university reported itself to the NCAA after two former players, Bryant Young and Jeff Burris, were found living rent-free in an alumnus's off-campus apartment. The NCAA ruled that the infractions were secondary. See part two below due to word limit.

 

[beachcardinal]

This From ESPN:

South Carolina admitted to 10 NCAA violations committed under former football coach Lou Holtz in a report released Wednesday. Five of the violations were classified as major.The report was prepared jointly by the NCAA enforcement staff and the university and has been forwarded to the NCAA's Committee on Infractions, which can accept, reject or modify the proposed

penalties.

The school found violations occurred when prospective student-athletes were given impermissible tutoring sessions and offseason workouts from 1999-2002. South Carolina was also found to have a lack of institutional control.

"These are serious violations that are not in keeping with the values of the University of South Carolina and our athletics programs," University President Andrew Sorensen said. "They certainly cast our university in a light, which no one in the Carolina family condones."

Holtz did not immediately return messages left by The Associated Press at his home in Orlando, Fla.

The school proposed two years of probation, a reduction from 56 to 50 paid campus visits for football recruits this year and next; and a loss of two football scholarships for the 2006-07 and 2007-08 academic years. Steve Spurrier, who replaced Holtz, says he hopes the NCAA will accept the penalties, "which I believe are fair, so that we can get this matter behind us." Holtz retired at the end of last season.

At Minnesota:

At stated above Holtz give money to a recruit. Lied about the amount and tried to make an assitent coach lie. The assistant coach refused. According to UPI:

Holtz admitted last Friday he gave money to two players while coach at Minnesota. An NCAA investigation into the Gophers' sports program turned up 21 violations, including three by Holtz during his two seasons as football coach, 1984 and 1985

• 
  
• What I replied regarding your question on vacating wins, “The that it was the fourth violation was a factor for the NCAA. One of those violation was under Holtz as was the steroids issue.”
• The Issue under discussion for all these posts was whether ND would hire Urban Someone poster take it might meet SC’s standards but not ND and referred to “Cheaty Petey>” My response was that that was a strange comment in light of Lou’s NCAA record before and after hiring. Yu may wish to ignore what want on before hiring, but the post was how previous record impacted hiring.
• Here are some of his previous actions. Holtz has left every program he coached, other than William and Mary, at just before they were hit with NCAA probation. NC State, Minnesota, Arkansas, Notre Dame, and South Carolina were all found to have violated NCAA rules while under the leadership of Holtz.
• Here is why the Washington Examiner include Holtz on its all time list of sports cheaters:
• Lou Holtz, former College football coach: Anybody who knows anything about college football knows Lou Holtz, especially the folks at the Universities of Notre Dame, Minnesota and South Carolina. Holtz coached at all three schools, and almost as soon as he arrived, began pulling victories out of his hat like he was Houdini. But when he left, he pulled the ultimate vanishing act: He disappeared, and left all three teams on probation for major infractions by the NCAA that occurred when he was the head coach.

You will have to do any additional research by yourself. There are 30 violations to research. Nothing in this or any other thread is a denial of Reggie’s actions, He cheated and should not of. Since he was ineligible the games he played in after the Lake deal had to be vacated. There was never evidence that a coach knew. It was never alleged that Pete knew. Contrary to your statements, I do like Lou. All the information after the first post is here because posters asked for it. It is sports history.

Hope you have a good new year.

 

[tbonesays]

Okay a. You are clearly obsessed. And b. You believe that it would be an NCAA violation for an athlete to have a gf with money.

 

[beachcardinal]

Okay a. You are clearly obsessed. And b. You believe that it would be an NCAA violation for an athlete to have a gf with money.

I have been answering questions form the ND posters here. I would have been glad to let go of this after the one passing comment about not critisizing other schools while celebrating Holtz.

And it was the NCAA that found the viloations, not me, which ND agreed to. Also, I think you meant 12 athletes to have the same girlfriends who they never knew before playing football and from whom they took gifts despite being trained that it was illegal.

 

[Patrirish]

You don’t like to read the thread you are posting on, so I will try to accumulate a few things in one place:

• Yes. McNair was required to report a violation to SC compliance and If he had done so Pete would have known. However, McNair Sid he didn’t know and that Lake, a convicted felon with a perjury conviction. was lying. The NCAA chose to believe Lake, McNair sued and was paid off by the NCAA. Also the California Court of Appeal found the investigation so flawed and biased that it met the legal standard for malice.
• Here is a summary of the preexisting rule determinations test

PRE-EXISTING RELATIONSHIP

FOUR-PART TEST

1. Did the relationship between the athlete (or athlete’s

parents) and the individual providing the benefit(s)

develop as a result of the athlete’s participation in

athletics or notoriety related thereto?

2. Did the relationship between the athlete (or the

athlete’s parents) and the individual providing the

benefit(s) predate the athlete’s status as a prospective

student-athlete?

3. Did the relationship between the athlete (or the

athlete’s parents) and the individual providing the

benefit(s) predate the athlete’s status achieved as a

result of his or her athletic ability and reputation?

4. Was the pattern of benefits provided by the individual

to the athlete (or athlete’s parents) prior to the athlete

attaining notoriety as a skilled athlete similar in nature to

those provided after attaining such stature?

If you answered NO to questions 1, and YES to

questions 2, 3, 4 then there is an established relationship

with the athlete.

However, if you answer differently for any of the four

questions, then by NCAA rules, there is NO pre-existing

relationship and thus it is impermissible for you to

provide any prefer

Note there is no boyfriend question. Dumbar clearly doesn’t met the test.

• “Like a weasel, You’re conflating issues again,”. Weasels don’t conflate.
• According to the Lincoln Star Journal at last count, more than 30 NCAA violations as coach
• Norte Dame, to its credit, did not dispute the findings including Holtz knowledge of Dunbar taking a players to Hawaii.
• Yes the NCAA place ND on probation and took away scholarships based on Lou’s actions:

The NCAA placed Notre Dame, college football's most legendary school, on probation for the first time yesterday, imposing light penalties that "fit the crime," said infraction committee chairman Jack Friedenthal.

The Irish received a two-year probation and will lose one scholarship for each of the next two football seasons. Notre Dame, the only major college football team with its own network television contract, remains eligible for postseason bowls and its multimillion-dollar deal with NBC is not affected.

The penalties originate from a relationship between Irish players and a former athletic booster. She gave them gifts, meals, money and trips financed by some of the $1.2 million she embezzled from her employer in South Bend, Ind., where Notre Dame is located.

The university said it would not appeal the NCAA ruling.

• "This is not a good day for Notre Dame," said the Rev. Edward A. Malloy, the university president, in a statement. "We are embarrassed by these incidents, troubled that they occurred, and we have taken action to deal with the issues involved. Whether these incidents are characterized as secondary or major, they happened, and that is unacceptable and a matter of the highest concern to us."
• The infractions committee called the violations major and "neither isolated nor inadvertent." The NCAA cited the length of time during which the violations occurred, the extravagant nature of the gifts and the competitive advantage gained by Notre Dame.
• Some of the allegations were uncovered by Notre Dame Coach Bob Davies last year, Malloy said. In addition to the allegations involving ex-booster Kimberly Dunbar, Notre Dame was found guilty of major violations concerning academic fraud, the sale of complimentary admissions by one player and a tutor providing meals, lodging and travel to four football players and three other Irish athletes.
• The academic fraud case involved a football player who paid a university tutor $20 to $30 to write a paper for him, according to the report.
• 
  
• Dunbar, 30, who was released in October after serving more than a year in jail following her conviction for embezzlement, was dating Notre Dame players before she became a booster in June 1995 by joining the Quarterback Club. The violations occurred after that date.
• The fact that Dunbar had a dating relationship with players factored into the determination of penalties, said Friedenthal, a law professor at George Washington University. The NCAA ruled that benefits bestowed on the players Dunbar was dating did not violate rules but those given to other players and their friends did.
• A good portion of the committee's report addressed the issue of monitoring and accountability.
• In 1994, before Dunbar became a booster, then-coach Lou Holtz was aware of Dunbar taking Irish wide receiver Derrick Mayes on a weekend trip to Las Vegas. The university dropped the matter after finding out Mayes was dating Dunbar. A "more complete investigation at that time might have precluded what later became a significant problem," the committee said.
• Three years later, in the summer before Davies' first season as coach, Friedenthal said an assistant coach had a similar opportunity to uncover the violations after discovering that Dunbar had paid for a trip to Las Vegas for herself, two players and a player's girlfriend.
• Although this marked the first time the Irish had been placed on probation, rules violations have surfaced at the school.

In 1993, the NCAA ordered Notre Dame to forfeit two scholarships after Demetrius DuBose improperly accepted gifts from a booster. The following year, the university reported itself to the NCAA after two former players, Bryant Young and Jeff Burris, were found living rent-free in an alumnus's off-campus apartment. The NCAA ruled that the infractions were secondary. See part two below due to word limit.

Let’s do this in order.

1. Who was the booster that DD accepted gifts from ?

 

[Patrirish]

I have been answering questions form the ND posters here. I would have been glad to let go of this after the one passing comment about not critisizing other schools while celebrating Holtz.

And it was the NCAA that found the viloations, not me, which ND agreed to. Also, I think you meant 12 athletes to have the same girlfriends who they never knew before playing football and from whom they took gifts despite being trained that it was illegal.

What you refuse to understand is a simple principle that you as a lawyer should be keenly aware of. It’s called “discovery”

When did ND/Lou “discover” that “each” player was receiving gifts ?

And at the time the gift was made, was Dunbar dating the recipient of the gift on the date of the gift ?

The NCAA ruled that gifts Dunbar made to players Dunbar was dating did NOT constitute an NCAA violation, which is CONTRARY to what you’ve maintained the entire time.

I keep asking you, what specific act of Holtz’s was responsible for sanctions against ND ?
Name the incident and the involved parties.
Please use source information and not opinion pieces.

thanks