Those aren’t “off the field” issues.
2-11 isn’t the cornerstone of job security and that owner has fired others in the past.
Urban Meyer fired
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2-11 isn’t the cornerstone of job security and that owner has fired others in the past.
List what he has allowed and what he has done that justifies his being fired, other than his 2-11 record.
No,
but tell us which teams of Holtz’s were put on NCAA probation and for what cause.
thanks
I listed the teams above and cited the bleacher report for a refernce. Here are the teams: NC State, Minnesota, Arkansas, Notre Dame, and South Carolina were all found to have violated NCAA rules while under the leadership of Holtz. (BTW Pete was one of his coaches at Arkanas.)
As to the cuase for each you will have to look them up for yourself. Easy with google.
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The entire Dunbar case hinged on Dunbar having paid $ 25 or such to join a breakfast club.
She had an affair/s with players and was showering them with gifts.
I believe that she had a child with one of the players
it was about as bogus of a case as you could imagine.
if Dunbar doesnt join the breakfast club their is no case
Yes, Holtz got ND on probation for the Kim Dunbar situation. It was his fault she was part of the Notre Dame QB Club (so acting as a booster for the school), and then had a kid with one of the players and took and him and some other players to a Bulls game.
And he didn't get William and Mary on probation.
And he didn't get William and Mary on probation.
Nice try.
Holtz was told to run a clean program or be fired.
The Dunbar case was a travesty.
Had Dunbar not paid $ 25 or $ 50 to join the breakfast club, which changed her classification to a “booster” there is no case.
it was about as bogus a case as you could make
My ONLY concern is ND, not what happened at other schools.
And, I am intimately familiar with the Dunbar case, which was about as flimsy of a case as you can imagine.
The NCAA‘s entire case hinged on Dunbar paying a nominal fee to join a breakfast club.
That act transitioned her from a fan to a booster.
Dunbar was a players intimate girlfriend,
it was a bogus case, one the university should have fought and appealed
St Lou kept his hands clean and looked the other way from the boosters or whatever they called them. So did Pete Carroll and every successful coach.
Meyer got caught with his hand in the, well you know.
What was the try?. You said it wasn't true that every program he coached was put on probation. I showed that what I said was true. You don't care what happen at other teams? You seem to care about USC.
My point was not that Coach Lou was evil but that is a iltte strange for a poster to attack coaches for an alleged NCAA violation (Cheaty Petey) when they idolize one of the worst violators in NCAA history.
No, I don’t know, so tell us where Meyer got caught with his hand in the ______ ?
First, you’re wrong, your claim wasn’t true, you forgot about W&M.
Secondly, the Dunbar issue had nothing to do with Lou
Well actaully I quoted the bleacher report article on the all time worst NCAA violators, but I should said every major team he coached.
I didn't say that he was directly imvlovd in the dunber issue. Pete wasn't invloved or even alledged to be involved in the Reggie Bush issue. Teams are the responsibilty of the head coach.
Then the Bleacher report omitted W&M, intentionally or unintentionally!
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And again, Lou had nothing to do with the Dunbar case !
So what other infractions had nothing to do with Lou ?
You don't seem to understand the posts. A poster implied that USC had low standards becuse of "cheaty Petey". I pointed out the ND revered one of coaches with the most NCAA violations, despite somehow avioding probation at William and Mary.
You also don't seem to understand that a coach is responisble for seeing that the program is run with integrity. It doesn't matter if he personally has knowledge if someone connected with his program has kmowledge of it. This was the case with "Cheaty Petey". No one even alledged he knew that Reggie's parents took money to get Reggie to leave SC early, with PC's knowldege.
My point is not that Holtz is evil. It is that it is funny that ND fans take shots at other coaches after revering a coach that had so many programs placed on prebation and got listed on Bleacher Report's list of all time worst rule violators.
Congrat on his stay at William and Mary though.Most Scandelous Coaches
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There‘s a critical distinction and flaw in your comparison.
Your Comparison is with “Cheaty Petey“ at USC and Lou Holtz at everywhere except ND.
The comparison should be their respective conduct at USC and ND.
Evidently Petey was about the only one not aware of the Bush situation.
That’s really hard to believe.
Well since the threa was about Urban conduct while not at ND it seems a strange limitation, but here we go:
The NCAA took and studied all the emails and phone records of all the coaches and concuded that Coach McNair knew that an agent paid for Reggie's parents to live in a house 50 miles away from Campus. They didn't alledge that Pete or any other coach knew. McNair subsequently sued the NCAA for defamation in a case that went to the court of appeal twice. The first time they conclded that the investigation was so flawed that it might constitute malice. The second time, after the jury found against McNair they upheld a new trail, After that McNair, represented by an excellent attorney, who graduated from Notre Dame law recieved a multi million dollar settlement.
Now Lou at ND. I don't know the facts of that case. Here is what Bleacher report said in it most scandalous coacheds article, an article that did not include Pete:
Holtz was also overseeing the Notre Dame Football team when they were caught distributing steroids in the locker room during the late 80’s and early 90’s. The NCAA allowed the Irish to handle the matter internally, but there is no way Holtz was unaware of all that was going on with his program.
That and the Dunbar case are his actions at ND.
Okay so you are adjudicating the coaches on whether they 'knew' about the taboo activities that occur in successful programs? And you think a coach is exonerated if he didn't know??
Wouldn't that just make him really ignorant?
Yes it would and I am not adjudicating anything. The point I was making wa that programs with a history of NCAA violations shoudn't be so quick to condem other coaches. Coaches, like ship captains are responsible for what they know or should have known.
A Jackson State football player was arrested by federal authorities Monday and is accused of devising a scheme to fraudulently obtain hundreds of thousands of dollars in COVID-related unemployment benefits, according to a release by the U.S. Department of Justice.
Abdul-Malik McClain, 22, allegedly orchestrated the scheme with other players while he was attending USC in 2020. He pleaded not guilty to 10 counts of mail fraud and two counts of aggravated identity theft in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles on Monday. He was released on $20,000 bond and is scheduled to appear in court again Feb. 15.
Abdul-Malik McClain, 22, allegedly orchestrated the scheme with other players while he was attending USC in 2020. He pleaded not guilty to 10 counts of mail fraud and two counts of aggravated identity theft in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles on Monday. He was released on $20,000 bond and is scheduled to appear in court again Feb. 15.
That is right and do you know who turned him in? USC. And also cooperated with the Feds. Should it have done something else?
Thank you for pointing out how active SC is in policing its athletes.
Pete the Cheat got out as soon as he saw what was about to come out on his program. You don't think Reggie Bush talked to Poodle about getting a house for his parents in San Diego? haha Another Ostrich.
Pete probably started yelling gibberish while putting his hands over his ears so that he could pretend he didn't know. LALALALALA!!!...A Heisman was given up. A National Title was given up. Did this kind of penalty happen to Lou at ND for supposed menial infractions, or anyplace he coached? Evidence must've been pretty severe on ol Pete & Co. But of course Pete did a "Poof".
Has your program invited Pete the Cheat back? Why no statue for such a role model? Why not for OJ for that matter? lol Lou's been back to many functions at ND. No there, there.
Again, if the ND admin allowed a statue to be built of Lou Holtz, they probably saw, as most did, that there was no there, there. If you are using the NCAA for credibility by them saying Lou knew more yet THEY can't prove he did? So the lazy P'sOS that they are just said, wtf, give'm probation.
And 'grades tampering' while Davie was HC? I'd say you hate Lou more than we hate the pooch.
So....he's in the bar (and on video) while the team is back in JVille, and he's not available for the team meeting the following morning....because he's in another state....but its an on-the-field issue? Who knew?
Pete did leave before sanctions. that is true although it has nothing to do with the discussion. The NCAA found nothing that showed he knew anything after months of looking. Why would Reggie tell a coach sometime that would void his eligibilty?
Pete has been around the program occasionally. I am not sure you are aware but he is the coach of a Pro footabll team which keeps him busy. Also, many are not happy he left while sanctions were pending. I have no idea way ND would build a statue of Holtz, but its fine with me.
"grades tampering' while Davie was HC? " I have no idea what you are talking about.
I don't hate Lou at all. In fact i like him, and think he was a good coach and commentator. My point, again, was a poster used Pete as evidence of a low bar of intregrity when ND hired a coach and apperently built him a statutue, when every team he coached other than Willaim and Mary was put of probation for acts that occured under his leadership and was listed on Bleacher Reports most scandelous coaches list.
Well that's not much room for nuance. What is the HC supposed to do with said knowledge?
For example St Lou coached at Arkansas in the Southwest Conference of the 1970s. Illegal benefits were endemic in the culture and every coach had to know about it. Now do you want to blame every coach in the era in the region? Or more on topic, do you blame whomever happened to be HC at the time the program got placed on probation?
We are missing each other's points. I think coaches should not be able to turn a bliand eye. I also think they can't know everything. I think the standard should be, "knew or should of known."
I don't understand your question about blame. My point wasn't that coach Lou is corrupt. It was teams that hire coaches with runs in with the NCAA (witch I beleive is corrupt and incompitent) should not be critical of other programs regarding NCAA issues.
I like coach Lou. I think he was a great coach and commentator. But any fair person would have to say that he had issues with NCAA rules. His record of teams put on probation by the NCAA will likely never be equaled in the future,
You should go back and read the posts. I responded to a post implying that SC had low standards based on "cheaty Petey" I respnded basicly saying people in glass house should throw stones. It was something like Urban may fit USC standards but ND standards are much higher.
I didn't post that Freeman was going to be the DC at Ohio State. there was a thread about Freemen as head coach where someone speculated he would go to LSU with Kelly. I cited an Ohio State thread saying he would be DC there. I specifically it was just a posters thread that could well be BS.
I aslo posted in a thread called something like "what I think may happen" that Freeman would be hired as head coach. I also congratulated ND on hiring him as a great hire.
I was born in Indiana and have always rooted for Nd except when they play USC which is where two of way children went to school. I you think I am an ND hater you need to read my post more carefully. I am certainly responsible for my posts but not for your imagined motives for them.
None of this changes my belief that fans of ND should not critsize SC for its NCAA violation when it hire a coach who had led several treams to NCAA violations before he was hired and to one while he was coach at ND. If you think it is reasonible to do so, that is up to you.
so why are you on the board bad mouthing Holtz and putting up false info on Freeman? Still not clear
I explained why I post on Holtz. The reason there are so many posts on this is that people challeged what I posted or asked for details. If you look you will see that most of the posts are in response to those of others, including you
I never posted any false information re Freemen. There was a thread about his future as a post. I cited an OSU post stated what they said his future would be. I said it could be BS. There was nothing false about that. It is what they said and it did turn out to be BS.
Many in the thread were referring to sites claiming he would go to LSU. It was a thread of posting people's opinions, and I specifically cited the OSU thread so people could judge for themselves. There was nothing false about it. If you say someone beleive x will be the new coach somewhere and it urns out to be y, it isn't false information becuase it was never represented as something other than an opinion. Happnes all the time about where a recruit will go.
As I explained the thread was about what Freemen would do, He hadn't been hired then. there were several posts about possibe destinations. I cited the tOSU thread as an example of where people thought he would go. I didin't say I didn't think it was not true, I said it could be BS. I didn't know where he might go. I was referring to some speculations as others were doing.
I not sure I can explain that any better. If you aren't happy with it, I am fine with that.
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I just find it very superficial to point fingers at the HC only because the program has boosters and administrators who have always chafed at the rules. The elite programs seem to cut head coach out of the equation or keep many degrees of separation between them. For example whoever is coaching Alabama has always 'known' about NCAA violations while rarely getting his own hands dirty.
Also you mention 6 times. I know. I was banned from NDNation by John Vannie et al for stating that inconvenient fact. Hence the birth of 'St Lou'
I don't know if you have considered that the NCAA of that era focused the investigations on winning programs. And they generally found violations because their rules were detached from reality.
So citing NCAA probation
means that St Lou won a lot of games and accepted the cultures as he found them.
You don’t know what the team schedule was and you don’t know if he had delegated responsibilities related to any meeting to other coaches or executives.
You and others are quick to rush to judgement without knowing all of the facts.
UM’s record as a coach is spectacular and now you want to second guess his hourly activities
Give me a break !
This is what I mean by missing each other's points. I agree with you. My point was that one team that hires a coach who has mulitple NCAA violations shouldn't poot fingers at another program with NCAA violation.
Agree, and Notre Dame shoudl stay as far away as possible. he is not a good look, not a "Notre Dame Man" as they say.
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