McGovern to Transfer
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Elmer did graduate, in 3 years, and then moved on with his chosen career. Do you also accuse players who go to the NFL after 3 years of "quitting on their team"?
You can add now add McGlinchey and Q. Nelson to the list (Nelson isn't a 5th year candidate but he's listed as the #1 draft eligible guard on some draft analysts' boards so he would likely go in the 1st or 2nd round in this year's draft), so the "etc." is appropriate.
I think Decker's overall argument stands. Of the players who have announced they aren't coming back for a final year, which ones won't be better off by transferring or entering the draft? Kizer is likely going to go in the 1st round of the draft and likely no worse than the 2nd. Zaire wants to be as close to a guaranteed starter in his final year as possible. With Wimbush in the wings and, according to coaches, looking great in practice last year there was at least going to be another QB competition if Zaire stayed and I think most of us were thinking Wimbush would likely win the job given his skill set and that was before the 4-8 debacle of a season started. As other posters have stated, McGovern was likely going to be passed up by 2 or 3 of the younger guys. Why wouldn't he want to move on to a better situation for his final year? The only 2 players that you might be able to make a case for staying are Folston and Brent but neither of those guys were projected to be a starter next year. In Folston's case he had already been passed by Adams and was likely going to get passed by D. Williams next year. Add Tony Jones to the mix and it was extremely likely Folston was going to have less production in 2017 than 2016. His draft stock is marginal now but it likely would have gotten worse after a 2017 in which he was projected to get less carries. As far as Brent is concerned, he's never been in the 2 deep since he's been here. I would have loved to have seen what he could have done if they had moved him to safety but I haven't heard he's shown an interest and, besides, I do know he's been in BK's dog house on more than 1 occasion so getting a fresh start somewhere else is probably in his best interest.
Can you make a case that any of those players would be better off staying?
Ok, one or two others I should have said.
With mcgovern, 2 or 3 guys in front of him as you say, one could drop before the season begins due to any number of reasons, the second on opening day, and he's next guy in. Instead we are sending in a freshman. And another spot that opens on the line. I have yet to hear anyone complain we have too many 4 star linemen for backup. Especially as the season goes on. Whoever Kelly can get to stay for bench he needs to get him to stay as long as he is competent.
Foston definitely needs to stay and I just don't see the love for Kizer so far. I haven't seen that much out of the guy to think he is a number one QB overall pick if that's what your saying. But g*d bless him if he can get it I guess. It would be nice if we had a legit NFL number one overall QB pick playing for this team. Really I can't think of to many times he really picked up the team and carried to wins like plenty of ND QB's before him.
Again, we're down 7 guys so far and the new semester is just getting started. Then summer when we always lose 5 guys. That's not counting injuries.
With mcgovern, 2 or 3 guys in front of him as you say, one could drop before the season begins due to any number of reasons, the second on opening day, and he's next guy in. Instead we are sending in a freshman. And another spot that opens on the line. I have yet to hear anyone complain we have too many 4 star linemen for backup. Especially as the season goes on. Whoever Kelly can get to stay for bench he needs to get him to stay as long as he is competent.
Foston definitely needs to stay and I just don't see the love for Kizer so far. I haven't seen that much out of the guy to think he is a number one QB overall pick if that's what your saying. But g*d bless him if he can get it I guess. It would be nice if we had a legit NFL number one overall QB pick playing for this team. Really I can't think of to many times he really picked up the team and carried to wins like plenty of ND QB's before him.
Again, we're down 7 guys so far and the new semester is just getting started. Then summer when we always lose 5 guys. That's not counting injuries.
When I said McGovern wasn't offered a 5th yesr, I mispoke and I apologize for that. What I meant was that the writing was on the wall and the conversation was likely even had with Hiestand about where he stands relative to Hoge / Kraemer and / Eichenbetg, given the their remaining eligibility, and it was likely decided that it would be best to go somewhere where he could enroll in a great Grad Program and start. He can do both at Virginia.
Colin was really, really bad at ND last year. Steve Elmer had his struggles at RG at times, but 2016's RG play was the worst I've seen it in years. Give me Mike Golic Jr all day over that.
I'd put the ownership of my house on Kraemer being an upgrade from the first snap.
Colin was really, really bad at ND last year. Steve Elmer had his struggles at RG at times, but 2016's RG play was the worst I've seen it in years. Give me Mike Golic Jr all day over that.
I'd put the ownership of my house on Kraemer being an upgrade from the first snap.
Your case for McGovern isn't a very good one. Why would he want to stick around with the off chance someone might get hurt, and it would likely take multiple injuries before he gets put in? From what I understand, Virginia's O-line was very poor last year. He is almost guaranteed a starting spot on that team as soon as he shows up. That's definitely a better situation for him.
I don't think many of us thought Folston would stick around for another year unless somehow he became the starter again. Unfortunately for him, that didn't happen and, as I mentioned earlier, his production would likely to decrease if he stuck around. His two best options were actually to transfer and play out his final year of eligibility elsewhere or declare for the draft this year. If he had decided to transfer, where would he go? There aren't too many schools who are looking for a one-and-done RB who only managed to rush for 330 yards last year. If sticking around means his meager draft stock would likely go down it's probably best if he declares for the draft now, try to shine at the combine and hope for the best.
I wasn't saying Kizer is projected to be the number 1 overall QB. Some draft analysts have him at 1 others have him as low as 3, but even at 3 he will likely go in the first or 2nd round. My guess? I think he will do really well at his pro day and will absolutely kill it during team interviews and that will only help his stock. I'd be surprised if he doesn't get taken in the first round. Regardless, we all know what happened last year. The best case for Kizer coming back would be for him to show improvement and solidify his draft stock for 2018. What guarantee is there that this team will be a lot better next year? Why should he think BK will help him improve? I think we will be better next year (how can we be worse?) but if you were Kizer would you want to bet a 1st or 2nd round contract on that possibility?
While we're on this subject it's probably a good idea to mention that it wouldn't surprise me if Hunter Bivin is looking to transfer as well. He probably has more value than McGovern but he isn't projected to start next year either. If he sees a better opportunity elsewhere I wouldn't blame him for leaving.
We lose guys like this every year. It should only be a concern if a solid case can be made that players are indeed fleeing rather than leaving for better opportunities. For 5th year players who aren't in the 2 deep they should probably look for better opportunities and the players we've mentioned fit that description. I don't see any reason to be alarmed. In fact, there's actually good news. We actually have 2 players who almost certainly would be taken in the 1st or 2nd round who are coming back. Both had great incentives to leave and yet they are staying. We should look at that as a positive sign because they are the type of players we want to retain and we did.
Isn't that a bad thing? I heard all of 2016 that the team was young and that's why they kept losing close games. You would think you'd want experienced guys in '17 then. The excuse makers need to get things straight.
ND is a healthy program then. Pheeww. I never thought 4-8 was all that bad. I mean it's just the reverse of the standard Kelly 8-4.
Anyone that says they're never coming back to the board and then does (under a new handle) should never be taken seriously.
Meaning you.
"I want to see some guys with some build and aggression to them."
"Until ND can learn to run against a 7 man box, this offense is going to be inconsistent."
IIO -- probably the best 2 statements in that paragraph! Cannot remember the last time I saw a physical ND offensive line.
How many draft eligible players with 1st round projections opted for returning, for a 5th year, to college football in the last 5 years? Who are the top draft eligible 5th year prospects in '17?
The entire offensive line underperformed last year. The left side had issues in getting a push in the running game. And the right side was average at best. With more talented guys becoming physically ready these transfers make sense. Elmer leaving was unexpected. McGovern wants to play on Sundays and will get a better look at another school after getting his degree as a starter than as the odd man out at ND. Good for him and good for ND.
All offensive lines are inherently physical (football is a physical game) ... If all it took to improve the OLs performance, was to be more physical and more aggressive, they would be doing those things already.
It seems to me that there are big, fast, strong, athletic players ... the bigger, faster, stronger, more athletic players probably *look* more physical/aggressive because their innate skills allow them to be more productive players. But I digress.
I think one of the biggest problems with the run game last year was running backs leaving too many yards on the field. Dexter was the only fully healthy RB but was too inexperienced to keep on the field. Kelly relying on the passing game had as much to do with being pass happy as it probably did with the RBs on the team being held together by duct-tape. CJ Prosise was a very underrated departure last season.
Also, the run game, even with a way less talented OL group -- back during the Ed Warinner era -- was way more productive. Warinner was an excellent run game coordinator/oline coach, much better than Heistand.
It seems to me that there are big, fast, strong, athletic players ... the bigger, faster, stronger, more athletic players probably *look* more physical/aggressive because their innate skills allow them to be more productive players. But I digress.
I think one of the biggest problems with the run game last year was running backs leaving too many yards on the field. Dexter was the only fully healthy RB but was too inexperienced to keep on the field. Kelly relying on the passing game had as much to do with being pass happy as it probably did with the RBs on the team being held together by duct-tape. CJ Prosise was a very underrated departure last season.
Also, the run game, even with a way less talented OL group -- back during the Ed Warinner era -- was way more productive. Warinner was an excellent run game coordinator/oline coach, much better than Heistand.
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People are missing the up side here with McGovern leaving. By the time Kelly is through - half or more of the scrub team will have scholarships.
eventually, one of these ex players is going to write a tell all book;
anyone have suggestions for a title?
anyone have suggestions for a title?
Let's address all the WRONG here on a point by point basis
1. McGovern has size and some level of experience (not really all that much) but that's about it. His athleticism has been sapped by repeated injuries to his lower body, to the point that he has little hope of competing with guys like Kreamer, Hoge, Ruhland, Eichenberg, etc.
2.There is a 0% chance that we lose 3-5 guys each semester and 5+ guys each summer, or that we'll lose 14+ guys before next season. Not a silm chance, not even a remote chance. 0%.
(The only way to even approach those numbers is to try to count regular graduations and in-season injuries)
3. Those players did not get drafted before all the EE's, at all. Saying so simply shows your own stupidity
1. Fuller (1st Round EE, went before any 2nd round player, such as Teo)
2. Jaylon (2nd Round EE....and that's after the injury. Also went before Teo and would have gone before almost any player who stayed, if not for a final game injury)
3. Tuitt (2nd Round player, probably should have stayed, but is now a starter about to sign a significant countract. He's doing better than many of the guys who stayed, such as Floyd, Teo, etc.)
4. etc.
4. There is no such thing as "overall team depth". There is simply depth at each position. The fact that you're not deep at QB doesn't mean that keep too many OG's on the roster somehow helps your "overall team depth".
Again, saying something like this just outs you as an idiot
5. You need to make an argument for the players that should have stayed, not they ones who did stay.
Again, saying this is making you look pretty.....well....you get it by now
6. Again, the players that stayed are ABSOLUTELY NOT all doing better than all of the guys who were NFL EE's.
Once again, even saying something that stupid makes you look pretty....well stupid
7. Not sure what idiocy you're trying to say with the JV and Freshman team stuff. That line was just too moronic for regular humans to comprehend.
Try again
Players leaving for the NFL or PT (if they were buried on the depth chart) is not "losing guys"
This is literally expected of every team and is factored into the recruiting numbers. Do a quick numbers crunch and you'll see that if we didn't expect this to happen than we couldn't possibly sign all the recruits we have committed right now, never mind going after more commits (as we are currently)
And if you knew anything at all, you'd know that this happens to every team in CFB
The only player we've "lost" so far this off-season, who even had a 1% chance of coming back was Kizer
And if you'd look in the draft at all, many mocks have him going Top10 Overall so far, which would make his decision the right one
(though I think that would be a stupid draft decision for an NFL team, organizations like the Browns and the Jets seem to make them every single year)
ND was young overall, the only team that lost more to the NFL than we did was Ohio State
Losing a few experienced players doesn't mean the team will suddenly be young again.
The team will definitely continue to be young at some positions (QB, DL, potentially DB).
However, the team will absolutely NOT be young along the OL, like they were in 2016
There are signs of a health program, there are also strong signs of issues.
Was Auburn a healthy program when they lost 9 games before they won the NC?
Was Penn State a healthy program when they lost 6 games last year?
Was Washington a healthy program when they lost 6 games last year?
Was USC a healthy program when they lost 6 games last year?
It's not as cut-and-dried as your troll routine is trying to make it out to be
This statement is pretty much sheer nonsense, so we'll just agree to disagree. I'm gonna continue on with the approach that they should all finish school before going pro. And play out there eligibility at ND if offered. I'm old fashion that way.
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We just lost a 4 star recruit with one full year experience that has NFL aspirations. What does he know compared to you and your vast knowledge. The rest of the "stupid" and "idiot" comments don't help the discussion and I'll ignore. As well as the rest of your garbage post and garbage opinion.
That's not old-fashioned, it's simply moronic
When you're making multi-million dollar decisions, failing to analyze and consider all points (not just ND's) is so stupid it boards on a mental illness
Continuing to analyze anything with that level of delusion makes you someone who's gone beyond burying their head in the sand and has reached the level of clinically diagnosable over indulgence of fantasies
LOL, no.
We just lost a 3rd String OG with part of a year of starting experience, who's talent has been largely sapped by inury and was only forced into the starting lineup by the unexpected departure of a player who is actually able to play at a competent level
And of course you'll "just ignore" the rest of my post.
You're literally incapable of responding to it.
But don't worry, if you continue posting something so stupid without addressing my evisceration of it.......I'll keep reminding you
Let me know when you're ready to respond to the complete annihilation of all your BS that I posted above
Sure, you're welcome to your opinion. Again, for all I know he might not be offered another year. But I consider it a loss if he can't stay.
As to the value of playing out their eligibility, I still consider it best to use as much of college as possible to continue to learn the game and hit the league draft and go as high as possible. Also, it really isn't enough these days to have a 4 yr degree. If someone is offering to pay for your MBA also while learning your game and preparing for the NFL draft, that will ultimately benefit almost all of these guys.
But you're right, 4 or 5 out of the 15 or 20 at least EE's in 7 years. So you have a one in four or five chance of doing better. Or stay and get your degree first Maybe an MBA since you redshirted.
Again, for all I know Kelly told him it wasn't going to happen. I hate to lose the experience from a team standpoint.
along the topic of depth: experience shows depth is a today thing.
OL: 3 guys that cannot go down with injury for meaningful time: McG,Nelson,Barr
One can cite the talent behind them, but as of now it is untested and unproven.
Then there is Wimbush! The only quality starter on the team and he has (0)starts and very limited PT!
WR ? which guy stretches the field so D's cannot stack up the box on Wim/RB's?
TE? Jones sat a full year and he has proven to be the only true offensive threat.
AND that was the offensive concerns! The offense is the far better thought unit!
ND fans might want to temper the 12-0 predictions till a few days before the 1st kickoff!
OL: 3 guys that cannot go down with injury for meaningful time: McG,Nelson,Barr
One can cite the talent behind them, but as of now it is untested and unproven.
Then there is Wimbush! The only quality starter on the team and he has (0)starts and very limited PT!
WR ? which guy stretches the field so D's cannot stack up the box on Wim/RB's?
TE? Jones sat a full year and he has proven to be the only true offensive threat.
AND that was the offensive concerns! The offense is the far better thought unit!
ND fans might want to temper the 12-0 predictions till a few days before the 1st kickoff!
They were more likely better last year. It was smart to let them get stronger via the redshirt.
Isn't the "depth" on most college teams untested and unproven? DL and WR are the only positions where it's common to play a lot of different players on a regular basis.
yes, true; but this fanbase tends to attribute greatness even before a 'snap' is taken.
Elmer did not quit on his team. He graduated and had a career change outside of football. He fulfilled his obligation so to speak. Good luck to him. His degree will serve him well for the next 49 years but I think he will be retired by then basking in the sun.
Elmer is the kind of kid that is attracted to ND, so we should not be surprised when a kid occasionally says that it's time to move on to the next phase of life, degree in hand. Ken McAfee's heart was not in football after he left ND, it was in going to dental school. In 1980 Rob Martinovich told the KC Chiefs he was honored that they drafted him, but his CHEG degree was much more valuable to Exxon than it was to them. Like it or not, these are the kids that want to come to ND.
^. And that was further evidenced by Nelson and McG this off season. They would have been 1st RD draft picks, but continue in college football. This also shows the difference between SEC players and ND players.
For ND young men football is a sport: for the top SEC players, football is "life", and they play like life depends on it!
For ND young men football is a sport: for the top SEC players, football is "life", and they play like life depends on it!
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