Freeman got a pass for the Fiesta Bowl debacle. Does this continue?

Bob Rodes

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Are you guys who held Kelly to the highest standards, ready to hold Freeman to those same standards?
Sure. If he goes 8-5 his first two seasons, then we'll treat him exactly like we treated Kelly. Especially if he's as sincere an excuse-maker as Kelly was.

The only coach I can remember who didn't get roasted regularly in his first two-plus years was Ara. That's because he took a 2-7 team that hadn't had a winning season in five years and posted a 9-1 record with them. You do that, you get a pass.
 

4-4-3

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I'd thank him x100 for dismissing himself. JS was definitely married to him sans another 4-8 campaign.

That said unless you know what he actually made $$$ vs what LSU ponied up it's simply all going to be a theory/guess.
Even then it's still going to be pure speculation.

Perhaps he bought a damn shrimp'n boat and is having Brian Van Gorder as his first mate. 🤷‍♂️
The guy has won everywhere he's been, so I'm not one to underestimate him.

And just as was the case with
 

4-4-3

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The guy has won everywhere he's been, so I'm not one to underestimate him.

And just as was the case with
And just as was the case with Layden and Devine who paled in comparison to Leahy and Parseghian, respectively, Kelly will be remembered as having been an excellent head coach. It won't matter that he didn't win the big ones or win an NC. His overall record will speak for itself.

Sometimes you don't get the Sunday with the cherry on the top. You just get the Sunday.
 

Bob Rodes

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The guy has won everywhere he's been, so I'm not one to underestimate him.
He's also lost rather a lot pretty much everywhere he's been, so I'm not one to overestimate him either. I remember him as a rather better than mediocre head coach until 2017, at which point he reinvented himself and became a very good head coach. Excellent? Maybe. He sure didn't start out excellent, though.
 

4-4-3

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Kelly could take over for Saban at Alabama tomorrow and he'd find a way to lose on the big stage. It's the reality. He's gone into so many big games with the team being unprepared, he gave new meaning to the moniker "Big Game" Brian.
There's no way to know that or prove it unless Kelly eventually winds up there after Saban leaves. And wouldn't that be something? Kelly moving from LSU to Bama just like Nick did.

But let's see first how Kelly does at LSU. He's won everywhere. His chances there are good as well.
 
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4-4-3

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He's also lost rather a lot pretty much everywhere he's been, so I'm not one to overestimate him either.
I'll take a 72% winning percentage at -- what is it? -- four stops to date?

Along with several undefeated regular seasons, numerous bowl appearances, two playoff appearances and an NC final. Not to mention, ND's winningest coach measured by games won.

And I am, BY NO MEANS, a Brian Kelly apologist. Yet, those are REAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

Plus, he's a SHOE-IN HOF college coach.

ND supporters need to get over the fact that HE DUMPED THEM.

C'est la vie.
 
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NDinNJ

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There's no way to know that or prove it unless Kelly eventually winds up there after Saban leaves. And wouldn't that be something? Kelly moving from LSU to Bama just like Nick did.

But let's see first how Kelly does at LSU. He's won everywhere. His chances there are good as well.
The stakes and scheduling are much tougher than what he had at ND. He was given a lot of leeway, he won't have at LSU. They'll be clamoring for a championship by year 2-3. Anything short of a national championship and he'll be gone. They'll give him 5-6 years because of the guaranteed $$$ they gave him, but if he's not winning a title by year 3 they'll be rumblings.
 

88ND

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BTW he inherited a top 10 team, not a top 5 team.

Regardless of the condition the program was in when Kelly took over in 2010, he still managed to lose to Tulsa, USF, UConn, and Navy. Those losses were really inexcusable. ND had more talent then all of those teams combined.
I forgot about UCONN
 
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Bob Rodes

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I'll take a 72% winning percentage at -- what is it? -- four stops to date?

Along with several undefeated regular seasons, numerous bowl appearances, two playoff appearances and an NC final. Not to mention, ND's winningest coach measured by games won.

And I am, BY NO MEANS, a Brian Kelly apologist. Yet, those are REAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

Plus, he's a SHOE-IN HOF college coach.

ND supporters need to get over the fact that HE DUMPED THEM.

C'est la vie.
I'd rather see a higher percentage, personally. That one makes him not quite as good as Dan Devine (.742), the guy who wouldn't play Joe Montana until every other QB he had got hurt.

Sure, yeah. He did all that stuff. Pretty good coach. As for "winningest coach," sure, but Kelly is also ND's losingest coach measured by games lost. Longevity isn't an indicator of greatness, it's an indicator of adequacy.

I am by no means a Kelly hater, either. But let's not exaggerate the worth of those real accomplishments. Kelly was pretty good, was continuing to improve, could have wound up great at the end. Might be great at LSU. Might fall into some of his bad habits.

(Shoo-in is correct FYI, as in telling an animal "shoo," and it runs right into the corral, without requiring more energetic persuasion. No offense, just thought you might like to know.) I will wait to see how he does at LSU before I decide whether I think he's a HOF coach. He probably will be, though. Dan Devine is.

In retrospect, I'm glad he dumped us. Now that it's clear that he doesn't believe that ND can win a NC.
 

Patrirish

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BTW he inherited a top 10 team, not a top 5 team.

Regardless of the condition the program was in when Kelly took over in 2010, he still managed to lose to Tulsa, USF, UConn, and Navy. Those losses were really inexcusable. ND had more talent then all of those teams combined.
No, Freeman inherited a top 5 team and turned it into a top 10 team
 
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Patrirish

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BTW he inherited a top 10 team, not a top 5 team.

Regardless of the condition the program was in when Kelly took over in 2010, he still managed to lose to Tulsa, USF, UConn, and Navy. Those losses were really inexcusable. ND had more talent then all of those teams combined.
No, he inherited a top 5 team and turned it into a top 10 team.

I don‘t disagree about those losses.

I was highly critical of Kelly and those losses.
I attributed them to his rigidity and other factors.
 
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Patrirish

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If Kelly's record is any indicator, he would have found a way to lose to OkSt too.
I would state the following:

1. If he wasn’t looking for another HC position ……. He wins
2. If he’s in discussions with other schools to become HC …….. He loses
 

88ND

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If Kelly's record is any indicator, he would have found a way to lose to OkSt too.
Absolutely.
I'd rather see a higher percentage, personally. That one makes him not quite as good as Dan Devine (.742), the guy who wouldn't play Joe Montana until every other QB he had got hurt.

Sure, yeah. He did all that stuff. Pretty good coach. As for "winningest coach," sure, but Kelly is also ND's losingest coach measured by games lost. Longevity isn't an indicator of greatness, it's an indicator of adequacy.

I am by no means a Kelly hater, either. But let's not exaggerate the worth of those real accomplishments. Kelly was pretty good, was continuing to improve, could have wound up great at the end. Might be great at LSU. Might fall into some of his bad habits.

(Shoo-in is correct FYI, as in telling an animal "shoo," and it runs right into the corral, without requiring more energetic persuasion. No offense, just thought you might like to know.) I will wait to see how he does at LSU before I decide whether I think he's a HOF coach. He probably will be, though. Dan Devine is.

In retrospect, I'm glad he dumped us. Now that it's clear that he doesn't believe that ND can win a NC.
Total disrespect to Dan Devine comparing him to Brian Kelly.

Devine won a title...
Devine went 2-1 in Major bowl games. His lone loss could've, should've been title #2. Outplayed, outgained Georgia but 4 turnovers sealed the fate. 17-10

There's three accomplishments Brian Kelly never came close to duplicating.
#1 No title.
#2 Never won a major bowl/playoff game
#3 Never even finished a major bowl/playoff game in competitive fashion

End of the comparison...that isn't a comparison
 
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4-4-3

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The stakes and scheduling are much tougher than what he had at ND. He was given a lot of leeway, he won't have at LSU. They'll be clamoring for a championship by year 2-3. Anything short of a national championship and he'll be gone. They'll give him 5-6 years because of the guaranteed $$$ they gave him, but if he's not winning a title by year 3 they'll be rumblings.
It wouldn't be different with anyone else they'd hired. After all, they just fired a coach who'd won an NC.

I'm sure Kelly knows what he's gotten himself into. He took the ND job, didn't he? And he knew he'd be under THAT SAME LEVEL OF PRESSURE in South Bend. And with critically fewer recruiting options.

If Kelly fails at LSU, it will be for the first time. Yet, if Ed Orgeron could win an NC at LSU, I'd say that Kelly AT LEAST has a reasonable chance of doing well there.
 

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I'd rather see a higher percentage, personally. That one makes him not quite as good as Dan Devine (.742), the guy who wouldn't play Joe Montana until every other QB he had got hurt.

Sure, yeah. He did all that stuff. Pretty good coach. As for "winningest coach," sure, but Kelly is also ND's losingest coach measured by games lost. Longevity isn't an indicator of greatness, it's an indicator of adequacy.

I am by no means a Kelly hater, either. But let's not exaggerate the worth of those real accomplishments. Kelly was pretty good, was continuing to improve, could have wound up great at the end. Might be great at LSU. Might fall into some of his bad habits.

(Shoo-in is correct FYI, as in telling an animal "shoo," and it runs right into the corral, without requiring more energetic persuasion. No offense, just thought you might like to know.) I will wait to see how he does at LSU before I decide whether I think he's a HOF coach. He probably will be, though. Dan Devine is.

In retrospect, I'm glad he dumped us. Now that it's clear that he doesn't believe that ND can win a NC.
In my view, that's right. He decided that -- given ND's approach to the game -- he couldn't win an NC in SB. So, he decided to take a RISK -- for which he will be well-compensated -- that he could do it at LSU. I think an NC has always been his goal. Where he actually wins it has not been nearly so important.

The guy is a PRAGMATIST and as Holtz pointed out, never "bought into" the whole ND thing. Big deal. I wish him nothing but the best.

As for his record at ND, his winning percentage at one point was in at least the mid 60's. And it may have been lower. But over time, he pumped it up. My estimate when he arrived was that he'd win between 68% to 72% of his games. For a while the 68% looked out of reach. But he wound up exceeding my upside estimate as I believe he won 73% and change at ND.

Three more good seasons and he'd have been in range of Layden, Holtz and Devine.

If nothing else, he did what THE THREE PREVIOUS COACHES HAD FAILED TO DO. He REVIVED the program.

No small thing.

And certainly no SHOO-IN.
 

88ND

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In my view, that's right. He decided that -- given ND's approach to the game -- he couldn't win an NC in SB. So, he decided to take a RISK -- for which he will be well-compensated -- that he could do it at LSU. I think an NC has always been his goal. Where he actually wins it has not been nearly so important.

The guy is a PRAGMATIST and as Holtz pointed out, never "bought into" the whole ND thing. Big deal. I wish him nothing but the best.

As for his record at ND, his winning percentage at one point was in at least the mid 60's. And it may have been lower. But over time, he pumped it up. My estimate when he arrived was that he'd win between 68% to 72% of his games. For a while the 68% looked out of reach. But he wound up exceeding my upside estimate as I believe he won 73% and change at ND.

Three more good seasons and he'd have been in range of Layden, Holtz and Devine.

If nothing else, he did what THE THREE PREVIOUS COACHES HAD FAILED TO DO. He REVIVED the program.

No small thing.

And certainly no SHOO-IN.
Revive? I don't know about that. What he did learn after the 4-8 debacle was you have to work at this extremely hard.
ND can't recruit at present on reputation. Perhaps the catholic high school kids yes but every other player no. You have to sell it. The exclusive contract doesn't mean shit either. Christ you can stream any team at any time with today's technology. So the see your kid play on TV sales pitch isn't winning any longer.
He learned you must recruit hard and out work the other guy.

That said success breeds recruiting success. That still holds true but it's a fine line. It's not like it used to be with a major bowl win or title buys you 5 star kids in abundance. No...these kids today can showcase skills (the QB in particular) any place. Offenses are scoring points on any defenses and these kids want the Sunday dream to be a reality. It used to be a dream but a dream kept in check. Now it's treated like they're entitled to Sunday playing.
Add in NIL, early enrollment BS, and kids today are being pumped up too much and have these superficial dreams of playing Sunday's. The reality is they've no better chance today than 30 years ago.

Back to BK.
I will give him this. He could've folded up his tent but he knew given his age that would've been a coaching death sentence.
He fought back and started recruiting harder.
Something the prior coaches took for granted. Davie to Willingham to CW. They all treated it like ND turns away 5 star kids. Once reality set in that nobody is coming if you aren't recruiting it was too late.

BK also was extended a second chance the others weren't given. Perhaps he can thank CW's bloated contract that we paid without any services. Four years and 14 million he got? It was a lot of egg on face and if you didn't notice ND doesn't like flushing money down the toilet like some other schools just to win at all/any cost. (USC, Texas, A&M, LSU as examples)

So he got a second chance and he improved to a point. The big wins eluded him (always have) but he didn't let off in recruiting.

Something intetsting you noted was his winning percentage improved. It would be interesting to see if you can draw dots between that and an easier schedule. There's no question the schedule in the last 4-5 years have been very fortuitous. It's not his fault but I have to wonder if he played Holtz typical schedule he might not have survived more than 4 years. Holtz schedules without question were ridiculously tough at times.

As far as Freeman goes we'll find out real quick if he's in control or in over his head. That opening game @ the horseshoe will be a hot and himid sum bitch and right into the meat grinder. No getting the feet wet.

Maybe...just maybe...some dark horse freshman will shock the world at the QB position. Every other major program catches lightning in a bottle once in a while at QB. It hadn't happened here since Tony Rice. He was just a gamer. A winner. Fun to watch. Played best in biggest games.

ND NEEDS a QB like that. It's been way too long.
 

Golson5

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Top 5 when freeman got nd job, he just Inexplicably lost and dropped us out of top 5
Inexplicably lost by 2 to a top 10 team and big 12 champions

We looked better that game than any game all year given the team we played and how we looked
 
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savvyandsassier

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Brian Kelly will be a first-ballot CFB HOF coach, assuming they have ballots, I don't know exactly what the process is....

So the haters and ghouls and liars out there who continue to belittle, and keep chipping away at BK's record and achievements and whatnot, whatever angle they're trying to work to diminish his standing, which is the only thing these haters care about...

It's not going to affect his future CFB HOF status. I think we can all take some solace in that..
 

NDinNJ

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It wouldn't be different with anyone else they'd hired. After all, they just fired a coach who'd won an NC.

I'm sure Kelly knows what he's gotten himself into. He took the ND job, didn't he? And he knew he'd be under THAT SAME LEVEL OF PRESSURE in South Bend. And with critically fewer recruiting options.

If Kelly fails at LSU, it will be for the first time. Yet, if Ed Orgeron could win an NC at LSU, I'd say that Kelly AT LEAST has a reasonable chance of doing well there.
Fewer recruiting options? ND has currently offered 14 of the 16 rivals 5 star in the 2023 class. I'm beginning to believe the fewer recruiting options were self imposed more than some of us would like to think.
 

88ND

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Brian Kelly will be a first-ballot CFB HOF coach, assuming they have ballots, I don't know exactly what the process is....

So the haters and ghouls and liars out there who continue to belittle, and keep chipping away at BK's record and achievements and whatnot, whatever angle they're trying to work to diminish his standing, which is the only thing these haters care about...

It's not going to affect his future CFB HOF status. I think we can all take some solace in that..
You sound like you're taking offense to opinions from a message board that is definitely driven by...opinion.
Sounds awfully close to being an advocate of cancel culture.

Your defense of Brian Kelly doesn't bother me one bit and I certainly don't take any offense of it.
As far as HOF ok? What's your point? If he doesn't get in, ok. If he does, alright. What I can confidently say is if he gets in I don't think as many as you imply will say...ooohhhh glad we had that guy coaching our football team. I've serious doubts you'll see a large crowd rejoicing the time he was here.
Judging by the temperature of opinions on his stay @ ND I'd say it's about a 35/65 split. 35 percent are glad he was here and will defend him forever. 65 that felt he overstayed his welcome after cementing how close yet how far away from the elites in college football we really were.
 
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savvyandsassier

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You sound like you're taking offense to opinions from a message board that is definitely driven by...opinion.
Sounds awfully close to being an advocate of cancel culture.

Your defense of Brian Kelly doesn't bother me one bit and I certainly don't take any offense of it.
As far as HOF ok? What's your point? If he doesn't get in, ok. If he does, alright. What I can confidently say is if he gets in I don't think as many as you imply will say...ooohhhh glad we had that guy coaching our football team. I've serious doubts you'll see a large crowd rejoicing the time he was here.
Judging by the temperature of opinions on his stay @ ND I'd say it's about a 35/65 split. 35 percent are glad he was here and will defend him forever. 65 that felt he overstayed his welcome after cementing how close yet how far away from the elites in college football we really were.
Like I said, first ballot of CFB HOF, and that's an obvious no-brainer.

And you're an obvious hater, I don't even think you yourself would deny that. But unfortunately you're a hater to the degree of pure character assassination, and these are not sincere, or innocent critiques of his coaching abilities. On that level, on the merits, your criticisms are essentially gibberish, they're so unfair and so frequently over the top, and so undeniably and palpably invidious. And they're not sincere. And your only purpose and motivation is to metaphorically do violence to BK. Surely you see how transparent that is to read these posts and posts after posts of outright slandering on of the great coaches of the era? And that it is demonstrable that your posts are not substantive....

So you're one of those next-level haters....
 

Kelso86

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My bad you are correct, but Navy x 2
"My bad you are correct, but Navy x 2"

Yea -- what made the 1st loss even more complexing is that Diaco said he "did not have a Plan B" to stop Navy -- I thought Good Lord -- we play these guys annually
 
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88ND

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My bad you are correct, but Navy x 2
If we have to lose to someone I'm ok with losing to Navy. Definitely the one opponent I won't poke fun at.

They can be a god damn tough opponent at times and unless the elites play them every year they and their fans will never understand that.
 
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88ND

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Like I said, first ballot of CFB HOF, and that's an obvious no-brainer.

And you're an obvious hater, I don't even think you yourself would deny that. But unfortunately you're a hater to the degree of pure character assassination, and these are not sincere, or innocent critiques of his coaching abilities. On that level, on the merits, your criticisms are essentially gibberish, they're so unfair and so frequently over the top, and so undeniably and palpably invidious. And they're not sincere. And your only purpose and motivation is to metaphorically do violence to BK. Surely you see how transparent that is to read these posts and posts after posts of outright slandering on of the great coaches of the era? And that it is demonstrable that your posts are not substantive....

So you're one of those next-level haters....
What am I or anyone else saying that isn't true?

What makes your post so funny is eveything that is said is simply echoing what is already done. The games already been played.
I didn't make him go zero for _____ in major bowl/playoff games. I didn't make him prepare poorly and have our team get stramrolled by kickoff. Not once but every single time.

If that sits good with you thats fine. Just know it doesn't bother me one bit you’re accepting, almost celebrating, mediocre football in those games. Doesn't bother me one bit.

That said what exactly are your aspirations for the team? Get close but far away? Is that your goal?
If your goal is to compete with all teams, top teams included, then your defense seems a little odd.
 
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savvyandsassier

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What am I or anyone else saying that isn't true?

What makes your post so funny is eveything that is said is simply echoing what is already done. The games already been played.
I didn't make him go zero for _____ in major bowl/playoff games. I didn't make him prepare poorly and have our team get stramrolled by kickoff. Not once but every single time.

If that sits good with you thats fine. Just know it doesn't bother me one bit you’re accepting, almost celebrating, mediocre football in those games. Doesn't bother me one bit.

That said what exactly are your aspirations for the team? Get close but far away? Is that your goal?
If your goal is to compete with all teams, top teams included, then your defense seems a little odd.
What are you babbling about? Just quit babbling so much about BK.

Damn, dude....
 

NDinNJ

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If we have to lose to someone I'm ok with losing to Navy. Definitely the one opponent I won't poke fun at.

They can be a god damn tough opponent at times and unless the elites play them every year they and their fans will never understand that.

I agree to a point. It's definitely a challenge preparing for Navy. The defense has to be extremely disciplined and focused. Even Alabama struggled against them when they played Navy not too long ago, but on talent alone, there is no way ND should lose to Navy.
 

4-4-3

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Revive? I don't know about that. What he did learn after the 4-8 debacle was you have to work at this extremely hard.
ND can't recruit at present on reputation. Perhaps the catholic high school kids yes but every other player no. You have to sell it. The exclusive contract doesn't mean shit either. Christ you can stream any team at any time with today's technology. So the see your kid play on TV sales pitch isn't winning any longer.
He learned you must recruit hard and out work the other guy.

That said success breeds recruiting success. That still holds true but it's a fine line. It's not like it used to be with a major bowl win or title buys you 5 star kids in abundance. No...these kids today can showcase skills (the QB in particular) any place. Offenses are scoring points on any defenses and these kids want the Sunday dream to be a reality. It used to be a dream but a dream kept in check. Now it's treated like they're entitled to Sunday playing.
Add in NIL, early enrollment BS, and kids today are being pumped up too much and have these superficial dreams of playing Sunday's. The reality is they've no better chance today than 30 years ago.

Back to BK.
I will give him this. He could've folded up his tent but he knew given his age that would've been a coaching death sentence.
He fought back and started recruiting harder.
Something the prior coaches took for granted. Davie to Willingham to CW. They all treated it like ND turns away 5 star kids. Once reality set in that nobody is coming if you aren't recruiting it was too late.

BK also was extended a second chance the others weren't given. Perhaps he can thank CW's bloated contract that we paid without any services. Four years and 14 million he got? It was a lot of egg on face and if you didn't notice ND doesn't like flushing money down the toilet like some other schools just to win at all/any cost. (USC, Texas, A&M, LSU as examples)

So he got a second chance and he improved to a point. The big wins eluded him (always have) but he didn't let off in recruiting.

Something intetsting you noted was his winning percentage improved. It would be interesting to see if you can draw dots between that and an easier schedule. There's no question the schedule in the last 4-5 years have been very fortuitous. It's not his fault but I have to wonder if he played Holtz typical schedule he might not have survived more than 4 years. Holtz schedules without question were ridiculously tough at times.

As far as Freeman goes we'll find out real quick if he's in control or in over his head. That opening game @ the horseshoe will be a hot and himid sum bitch and right into the meat grinder. No getting the feet wet.

Maybe...just maybe...some dark horse freshman will shock the world at the QB position. Every other major program catches lightning in a bottle once in a while at QB. It hadn't happened here since Tony Rice. He was just a gamer. A winner. Fun to watch. Played best in biggest games.

ND NEEDS a QB like that. It's been way too long.
You seem very disappointed by Kelly. I'm not.

I'm more disappointed with ND for not figuring out some creative way to carve out football from the rest of what it does. Set up a College of Sports Careers and Enterprises -- or some such thing -- where players could learn everything from coaching to TV work to talent evaluating to NIL promotion -- whatever. That way, the school could attract the VERY BEST PLAYERS IN QUANTITY. Just like UNDER HOLTZ.

And, of course, without Holtz's players, even Holtz wouldn't have fared well against the teams he played.

But do you know who had pretty soft schedules? ARA PARSEGHIAN. THREE TOUGH GAMES A YEAR: Purdue, MSU and USC. Against Purdue, he went 6-5-0; against MSU, 8-2-1; against USC, 3-6-2. Of Ara's 17 losses, 13 were to those three teams. His other losses were to strong LSU, Nebraska and Texas teams and a mediocre Missouri team.

Meanwhile, two other Big Ten teams that had dominated ND for a number of years went south when Ara arrived: Iowa and Northwestern. Plus, ND pounded Wisconsin in his first game and made mincemeat of Illinois the two years his teams played them. Navy after Staubach was never the same; Pitt and Army declined; Oklahoma was beaten badly twice right before they became really good again; and Air Force and North Carolina were annual doormats. Plus, MSU got weaker, the longer Ara was at ND.

Just go to College Football Reference. It's all there. Curb stomping after curb stomping.

Had Ara faced the strong and extremely athletic MSU, Purdue, Iowa, Oklahoma, Pitt, Navy and his own Northwestern teams of the mid-50's to early 60's, things might have been a BIT DIFFERENT. Say, a 70% winning percentage rather than almost 85%.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not KNOCKING Ara Parseghian, but he, too, was treated well by the GODS OF SCHEDULING.

Shit happens.
 

NDinNJ

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"My bad you are correct, but Navy x 2"

Yea -- what made the 1st loss even more complexing is that Diaco said he "did not have a Plan B" to stop Navy -- I thought Good Lord -- we play these guys annually
I was at the Navy game in 2010 at the meadowlands. Brought my girlfriend at the time who i ended up marrying. Her first ND game, needless to say I was mocked a bit after that one. 😂
 
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savvyandsassier

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In other words you've got nothing.
I don't think that's fair to say at all. But do I want to get an agonizing, bad-faith argument on your terms where you literally endlessly rehash possible shortcoming or plausible criticism of BK until the earth crashes into the sun???

The answer to that is no. God no! That's precisely what I want nothing to do with, and am begging you stop doing. But you guys live for this shit. While I quite understandablyI find it excruciating. But it is occasionally fascinating, just to watch you haters do your thing....
 

NDinNJ

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Nov 23, 2018
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I don't think that's fair to say at all. But do I want to get an agonizing, bad-faith argument on your terms where you literally endlessly rehash possible shortcoming or plausible criticism of BK until the earth crashes into the sun???

The answer to that is no. God no! That's precisely what I want nothing to do with, and am begging you stop doing. But you guys live for this shit. While I quite understandablyI find it excruciating. But it is occasionally fascinating, just to watch you haters do your thing....

90% of the posts on this board regarding Kelly have been started by the Kelly fans. Comparing Kelly's record over the past 4 years vs what the expectations should be for Freeman. If you don't want to read criticisms of Kelly, than I suggest you have the rest of your Kelly fandom group stop initiating posts about him.
 
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Kelso86

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Sep 3, 2003
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You seem very disappointed by Kelly. I'm not.

I'm more disappointed with ND for not figuring out some creative way to carve out football from the rest of what it does. Set up a College of Sports Careers and Enterprises -- or some such thing -- where players could learn everything from coaching to TV work to talent evaluating to NIL promotion -- whatever. That way, the school could attract the VERY BEST PLAYERS IN QUANTITY. Just like UNDER HOLTZ.

And, of course, without Holtz's players, even Holtz wouldn't have fared well against the teams he played.

But do you know who had pretty soft schedules? ARA PARSEGHIAN. THREE TOUGH GAMES A YEAR: Purdue, MSU and USC. Against Purdue, he went 6-5-0; against MSU, 8-2-1; against USC, 3-6-2. Of Ara's 17 losses, 13 were to those three teams. His other losses were to strong LSU, Nebraska and Texas teams and a mediocre Missouri team.

Meanwhile, two other Big Ten teams that had dominated ND for a number of years went south when Ara arrived: Iowa and Northwestern. Plus, ND pounded Wisconsin in his first game and made mincemeat of Illinois the two years his teams played them. Navy after Staubach was never the same; Pitt and Army declined; Oklahoma was beaten badly twice right before they became really good again; and Air Force and North Carolina were annual doormats. Plus, MSU got weaker, the longer Ara was at ND.

Just go to College Football Reference. It's all there. Curb stomping after curb stomping.

Had Ara faced the strong and extremely athletic MSU, Purdue, Iowa, Oklahoma, Pitt, Navy and his own Northwestern teams of the mid-50's to early 60's, things might have been a BIT DIFFERENT. Say, a 70% winning percentage rather than almost 85%.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not KNOCKING Ara Parseghian, but he, too, was treated well by the GODS OF SCHEDULING.

Shit happens.
"I'm more disappointed with ND for not figuring out some creative way to carve out football from the rest of what it does. Set up a College of Sports Careers and Enterprises -- or some such thing -- where players could learn everything from coaching to TV work to talent evaluating to NIL promotion -- whatever. That way, the school could attract the VERY BEST PLAYERS IN QUANTITY. Just like UNDER HOLTZ."

While you have a good concept, the University will never do that. They have said in the past that Football will not define who the school is -- partly why the recruits that Holtz got early in his years dried up by the end of his time there.

I recall a guy by the name of Andy Katzenmoyer -- went to Ohio State -- he basically said something similar to what you stated -- he was asked what his major was, he said football. He stated he came to college to learn a trade -- his trade just happened to be football.
 

NDSMC78

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90% of the posts on this board regarding Kelly have been started by the Kelly fans. Comparing Kelly's record over the past 4 years vs what the expectations should be for Freeman. If you don't want to read criticisms of Kelly, than I suggest you have the rest of your Kelly fandom group stop initiating posts about him.
The obsession continues.
 

Golson5

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If we have to lose to someone I'm ok with losing to Navy. Definitely the one opponent I won't poke fun at.

They can be a god damn tough opponent at times and unless the elites play them every year they and their fans will never understand that.
Losing to Navy is inexcusable

Cant happen
 
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