Echowaker, Thoughts On 2017 OL Recruits?

[IrishInOntario]

I'm just wondering if you've had the opportunity to take a look at and evaluate some of these offensive line recruits that Notre Dame is in on in 2017? I honestly believe that this OL class could be the best I've seen in all my years following ND. It sounds like Kelly and Hiestand were initially looking to take 4 OL in the class, but they've garnered so much interest from some top guys that it seems like they're going to push for 5 OL as long as the group is comprised of the right guys.

I've got some thoughts on my most wanted guys I think ND has the best chance with, I'd love to hear yours...

3 Star OG: Dillan Gibbons (6'4, 311lbs): Every year it seems that Harry takes one of these ass-kicker type guards that just play with mean streak in them. I think Gibbons is a prime candidate to get a 4th star, especially if he dominates the camp circuit like he did at the recent Florida show case. He's definitely a guard at the next level and he fits the Parker Boudreaux / Trevor Ruhland mold of a guy who is more 6'4 than the 6'6 tackles Harry likes, but plays mean an projects as devastating run blocker. What I like more about Gibbons than those other two, however, is that he already has the girth at his age, and I've recently seen him on film (out of pads) and he basically has not bad weight on him by OL standards. I could easily see him as a 6'4, 320lb guard at the college level.

4 Star OT: Josh Lugg (6'6, 290lbs): Lugg, like Gibbons is already committed and I'm glad the Irish grabbed him early. His composite rating has him listed as the #24 OT in the country, which I think is a complete joke. The kid is every bit the 290lbs that he's listed at and he's still rather lean at that weight. He's another guy with a 320lb frame that reminds me a ton of Mike McGlinchey, right down to the PA roots. He's going to be one heck of leader and, IMO, projects as a surefire starter down the road. I watch a TON of film and I can't find 19 tackles I like better than this kid. I'm confident he's going to be an excellent right tackle.

4 Star OG: Robert Hainsey (6'5, 280lbs): Hainsey actually just received his Notre Dame offer today while visiting, but he's been killing it down at camps in Florida and if you haven't see his offer list, it's pretty ridiculous. Hainsey is originally from the Northwest, but he's roommates with Tony Jones Jr. playing down at IMG Academy in Florida. The only knock on him is that he has quite a bit of weight to add before he'll be ready to play, but he's athletic as they come (we know ND love to pull their guards) and Harry must feel he's got the frame to get up into the 310lb range if he offered. I like this kid a lot and many people think he's on commit watch this weekend while he's in South Bend.

5 Star OT: Foster Sarell (6'6, 320lbs): Many feel that Sarrell is the best OL in the 2017 class and I can't say that I disagree. He's a specimen and absolute mammoth out there at LT. Sarell reminds me Jake Long and Andrus Peat coming out of high school, except that at 320lbs (good weight) he's ready made to step in and play from day 1. If ND wasn't so loaded along the OL this kid could easily be a 4 year starter. He's a Washington native and his mom is a teacher. Academics are paramount to him and right now Stanford is likely his leader, but ND is running #2 without him even visiting South Bend yet (a trip he'll make in June) or meeting Harry Hiestand in person. Those in the know think ND could leap Stanford after his visit, presuming he enjoys Notre Dame's campus as much as they assume he will. Didn't think I'd say this anytime soon but like Sarell's film better than Tommy Kraemer's... That's high friggen praise.

4 Star OG / OT: Trey Smith (6'5, 290lbs): This kid was one of Hiestand's first OL offers. He could easily play out at tackle because he's so athletic, but he might even project better as dominant, athletic, guard. ND is battling the entire SEC for the Tennessee product, but he's an extremely bright, well spoken kid and many believe he'll take academics really seriously in his decision. He's been outspoken in his like for Harry Hiestand and how impressed he's been with what Harry has done with Martin, Stanley and McGlinchey in succession. Smith might be 2nd on my board of OL for ND because he's so damn athletic, has a ton of position flexibility and he's going to be a really big, powerful kid. Speaking of Ronnie Stanley, he's about 1/2 and inch shorter than Ronnie, but IMO, he's a virtual clone athletically, with more power and strength at the same age. He has one of those heads that you feel like you might need a custom helmet for.

Best of the rest interested in ND...

5 star OT: Jedrick Wills: Has visited and has ND near the top. Possibly a Kentucky lean at this point.
5 star OG: Wyatt Davis: Will visit ND this summer. Alabama is the presumed leader at this point.
4 star OT: Tyler Beach: Recently visited ND and loved it. Michigan vs ND battle with Wisconsin running 3rd.

 

[greengael]

I'm just wondering if you've had the opportunity to take a look at and evaluate some of these offensive line recruits that Notre Dame is in on in 2017? I honestly believe that this OL class could be the best I've seen in all my years following ND. It sounds like Kelly and Hiestand were initially looking to take 4 OL in the class, but they've garnered so much interest from some top guys that it seems like they're going to push for 5 OL as long as the group is comprised of the right guys.

I've got some thoughts on my most wanted guys I think ND has the best chance with, I'd love to hear yours...

3 Star OG: Dillan Gibbons (6'4, 311lbs): Every year it seems that Harry takes one of these ass-kicker type guards that just play with mean streak in them. I think Gibbons is a prime candidate to get a 4th star, especially if he dominates the camp circuit like he did at the recent Florida show case. He's definitely a guard at the next level and he fits the Parker Boudreaux / Trevor Ruhland mold of a guy who is more 6'4 than the 6'6 tackles Harry likes, but plays mean an projects as devastating run blocker. What I like more about Gibbons than those other two, however, is that he already has the girth at his age, and I've recently seen him on film (out of pads) and he basically has not bad weight on him by OL standards. I could easily see him as a 6'4, 320lb guard at the college level.

4 Star OT: Josh Lugg (6'6, 290lbs): Lugg, like Gibbons is already committed and I'm glad the Irish grabbed him early. His composite rating has him listed as the #24 OT in the country, which I think is a complete joke. The kid is every bit the 290lbs that he's listed at and he's still rather lean at that weight. He's another guy with a 320lb frame that reminds me a ton of Mike McGlinchey, right down to the PA roots. He's going to be one heck of leader and, IMO, projects as a surefire starter down the road. I watch a TON of film and I can't find 19 tackles I like better than this kid. I'm confident he's going to be an excellent right tackle.

4 Star OG: Robert Hainsey (6'5, 280lbs): Hainsey actually just received his Notre Dame offer today while visiting, but he's been killing it down at camps in Florida and if you haven't see his offer list, it's pretty ridiculous. Hainsey is originally from the Northwest, but he's roommates with Tony Jones Jr. playing down at IMG Academy in Florida. The only knock on him is that he has quite a bit of weight to add before he'll be ready to play, but he's athletic as they come (we know ND love to pull their guards) and Harry must feel he's got the frame to get up into the 310lb range if he offered. I like this kid a lot and many people think he's on commit watch this weekend while he's in South Bend.

5 Star OT: Foster Sarell (6'6, 320lbs): Many feel that Sarrell is the best OL in the 2017 class and I can't say that I disagree. He's a specimen and absolute mammoth out there at LT. Sarell reminds me Jake Long and Andrus Peat coming out of high school, except that at 320lbs (good weight) he's ready made to step in and play from day 1. If ND wasn't so loaded along the OL this kid could easily be a 4 year starter. He's a Washington native and his mom is a teacher. Academics are paramount to him and right now Stanford is likely his leader, but ND is running #2 without him even visiting South Bend yet (a trip he'll make in June) or meeting Harry Hiestand in person. Those in the know think ND could leap Stanford after his visit, presuming he enjoys Notre Dame's campus as much as they assume he will. Didn't think I'd say this anytime soon but like Sarell's film better than Tommy Kraemer's... That's high friggen praise.

4 Star OG / OT: Trey Smith (6'5, 290lbs): This kid was one of Hiestand's first OL offers. He could easily play out at tackle because he's so athletic, but he might even project better as dominant, athletic, guard. ND is battling the entire SEC for the Tennessee product, but he's an extremely bright, well spoken kid and many believe he'll take academics really seriously in his decision. He's been outspoken in his like for Harry Hiestand and how impressed he's been with what Harry has done with Martin, Stanley and McGlinchey in succession. Smith might be 2nd on my board of OL for ND because he's so damn athletic, has a ton of position flexibility and he's going to be a really big, powerful kid. Speaking of Ronnie Stanley, he's about 1/2 and inch shorter than Ronnie, but IMO, he's a virtual clone athletically, with more power and strength at the same age. He has one of those heads that you feel like you might need a custom helmet for.

Best of the rest interested in ND...

5 star OT: Jedrick Wills: Has visited and has ND near the top. Possibly a Kentucky lean at this point.
5 star OG: Wyatt Davis: Will visit ND this summer. Alabama is the presumed leader at this point.
4 star OT: Tyler Beach: Recently visited ND and loved it. Michigan vs ND battle with Wisconsin running 3rd.

Good post. [not echo but] I like Beach a lot!

 

[echowaker]

I'm just wondering if you've had the opportunity to take a look at and evaluate some of these offensive line recruits that Notre Dame is in on in 2017? I honestly believe that this OL class could be the best I've seen in all my years following ND. It sounds like Kelly and Hiestand were initially looking to take 4 OL in the class, but they've garnered so much interest from some top guys that it seems like they're going to push for 5 OL as long as the group is comprised of the right guys.

I've got some thoughts on my most wanted guys I think ND has the best chance with, I'd love to hear yours...

3 Star OG: Dillan Gibbons (6'4, 311lbs): Every year it seems that Harry takes one of these ass-kicker type guards that just play with mean streak in them. I think Gibbons is a prime candidate to get a 4th star, especially if he dominates the camp circuit like he did at the recent Florida show case. He's definitely a guard at the next level and he fits the Parker Boudreaux / Trevor Ruhland mold of a guy who is more 6'4 than the 6'6 tackles Harry likes, but plays mean an projects as devastating run blocker. What I like more about Gibbons than those other two, however, is that he already has the girth at his age, and I've recently seen him on film (out of pads) and he basically has not bad weight on him by OL standards. I could easily see him as a 6'4, 320lb guard at the college level.

4 Star OT: Josh Lugg (6'6, 290lbs): Lugg, like Gibbons is already committed and I'm glad the Irish grabbed him early. His composite rating has him listed as the #24 OT in the country, which I think is a complete joke. The kid is every bit the 290lbs that he's listed at and he's still rather lean at that weight. He's another guy with a 320lb frame that reminds me a ton of Mike McGlinchey, right down to the PA roots. He's going to be one heck of leader and, IMO, projects as a surefire starter down the road. I watch a TON of film and I can't find 19 tackles I like better than this kid. I'm confident he's going to be an excellent right tackle.

4 Star OG: Robert Hainsey (6'5, 280lbs): Hainsey actually just received his Notre Dame offer today while visiting, but he's been killing it down at camps in Florida and if you haven't see his offer list, it's pretty ridiculous. Hainsey is originally from the Northwest, but he's roommates with Tony Jones Jr. playing down at IMG Academy in Florida. The only knock on him is that he has quite a bit of weight to add before he'll be ready to play, but he's athletic as they come (we know ND love to pull their guards) and Harry must feel he's got the frame to get up into the 310lb range if he offered. I like this kid a lot and many people think he's on commit watch this weekend while he's in South Bend.

5 Star OT: Foster Sarell (6'6, 320lbs): Many feel that Sarrell is the best OL in the 2017 class and I can't say that I disagree. He's a specimen and absolute mammoth out there at LT. Sarell reminds me Jake Long and Andrus Peat coming out of high school, except that at 320lbs (good weight) he's ready made to step in and play from day 1. If ND wasn't so loaded along the OL this kid could easily be a 4 year starter. He's a Washington native and his mom is a teacher. Academics are paramount to him and right now Stanford is likely his leader, but ND is running #2 without him even visiting South Bend yet (a trip he'll make in June) or meeting Harry Hiestand in person. Those in the know think ND could leap Stanford after his visit, presuming he enjoys Notre Dame's campus as much as they assume he will. Didn't think I'd say this anytime soon but like Sarell's film better than Tommy Kraemer's... That's high friggen praise.

4 Star OG / OT: Trey Smith (6'5, 290lbs): This kid was one of Hiestand's first OL offers. He could easily play out at tackle because he's so athletic, but he might even project better as dominant, athletic, guard. ND is battling the entire SEC for the Tennessee product, but he's an extremely bright, well spoken kid and many believe he'll take academics really seriously in his decision. He's been outspoken in his like for Harry Hiestand and how impressed he's been with what Harry has done with Martin, Stanley and McGlinchey in succession. Smith might be 2nd on my board of OL for ND because he's so damn athletic, has a ton of position flexibility and he's going to be a really big, powerful kid. Speaking of Ronnie Stanley, he's about 1/2 and inch shorter than Ronnie, but IMO, he's a virtual clone athletically, with more power and strength at the same age. He has one of those heads that you feel like you might need a custom helmet for.

Best of the rest interested in ND...

5 star OT: Jedrick Wills: Has visited and has ND near the top. Possibly a Kentucky lean at this point.
5 star OG: Wyatt Davis: Will visit ND this summer. Alabama is the presumed leader at this point.
4 star OT: Tyler Beach: Recently visited ND and loved it. Michigan vs ND battle with Wisconsin running 3rd.

i have not but hoping to soon. i have taken on athletic director reponsibilities due to illness of our regular AD. we have break next week so hopefully i can play catch up. sure looks promising on the surface though. harry is one of the absolute best so whoever signs will be in more than capable hands.

 

[McIlhennyIrish]

i have not but hoping to soon. i have taken on athletic director reponsibilities due to illness of our regular AD. we have break next week so hopefully i can play catch up. sure looks promising on the surface though. harry is one of the absolute best so whoever signs will be in more than capable hands.

LOL. You are a high school gym teacher. How do you have an AD?

 

[IrishInOntario]

Your high school didn't have an athletic director? I was born-and-raised in Northern Ontario, Canada and even we had an athletic director and the school still does now. He taught two periods of physical education in the morning and his entire afternoon was spent working in his AD role in charge of our various sports.

What kind of school did you go to, lol?

 

[McIlhennyIrish]

Your high school didn't have an athletic director? I was born-and-raised in Northern Ontario, Canada and even we had an athletic director and the school still does now. He taught two periods of physical education in the morning and his entire afternoon was spent working in his AD role in charge of our various sports.

What kind of school did you go to, lol?

I went to Millburn High School, a top 100 Public HS in the country. Look it up. And no, we had no AD. It is a waste of taxpayer money.

 

[end_23]

He/she has thoughts? All it does is cry like a b¡Tch in here.

 

[McIlhennyIrish]

I went to Millburn High School, a top 100 Public HS in the country. Look it up. And no, we had no AD. It is a waste of taxpayer money.

Why would a ND alum, as Echo claims to be, become a Gym teacher? Got to question whether he was an alum or not. Who goes to ND to make $30k a year?

 

[McIlhennyIrish]

He/she has thoughts? All it does is cry like a b¡Tch in here.

End, we are usually on the same page. Are you directing you comments to me or Echo the Gym teacher.?

 

[IrishInOntario]

It's really a shame you guys pay your teachers as little as you do in most states. It's a huge part of the reason your education system is going down the shitter because a lot of very bright people are being steered away from the profession because there is such little compensation for a tough, thankless (in many cases) job. When I lived in the U.S. I got to know quite a few high school teachers, man you guys have a tough job. You have deplorable compensation and benefits in comparison to a lot of G7/8 countries.

Ontario high school teachers will full qualifications make $94,600 per year (without teaching any summer school, which can bring that total up over $110,000). Included also are 2 weeks of annual paid holidays (on top of summers, spring break, Christmas holidays and and all government holidays off) as well as 12 paid sick days (one per month) each year... Ontario teachers also get a full pension FOR LIFE after retirement and it pays between 70-80% of your working wage, even in retirement. Should you die, your spouse collects your pension until their passing as well. Furthermore, the job comes with 100% medical, 100% dental, and 97% prescription coverage FOR LIFE for each teacher, and the same benefits for the spouse of said teacher up until retirement and for their children until age 25.

And before you jump to defense of your country and say "that's ridiculous, you guys are retarded", or some other gibberish that I often hear people come back with, keep in mind that the minimum wage in Ontario is currently $11.25 per hour and heading to $12 soon and that the provincial debt in Ontario is less than 300 billion dollars, a rather respectable amount for the country's largest province, in a system that provides fully funded, socialist style (but state-of-the-art) education, health care, food insurance programs, social programs, etc, etc... The Federal debt is $1.2 Trillion dollars and the Fed projections feel like they can get that under 1 trillion within 2 years, provided our dollar rebounds as expected. Compared to the between 14-17 trillion dollar U.S. Federal debt, which only seems to be on the rise, we're doing ok.

 

[perseverare]

The OL will have Nelson Barr McGlinch, all with some experience; then the other 2 spots are up for grabs.
Montellus looks to be going to DT? (oye! 3 yrs in they move him?)

So the line will be a work in progress. But season end I think one of the new Fr. are starting. At season end it will be a good line. The 1st half of the season will be an adventure.

So, in summary, what's is the best recruited position and generally considered the team strong point looks unsettled to start the season.

 

[McIlhennyIrish]

It's really a shame you guys pay your teachers as little as you do in most states. It's a huge part of the reason your education system is going down the shitter because a lot of very bright people are being steered away from the profession because there is such little compensation for a tough, thankless (in many cases) job. When I lived in the U.S. I got to know quite a few high school teachers, man you guys have a tough job. You have deplorable compensation and benefits in comparison to a lot of G7/8 countries.

Ontario high school teachers will full qualifications make $94,600 per year (without teaching any summer school, which can bring that total up over $110,000). Included also are 2 weeks of annual paid holidays (on top of summers, spring break, Christmas holidays and and all government holidays off) as well as 12 paid sick days (one per month) each year... Ontario teachers also get a full pension FOR LIFE after retirement and it pays between 70-80% of your working wage, even in retirement. Should you die, your spouse collects your pension until their passing as well. Furthermore, the job comes with 100% medical, 100% dental, and 97% prescription coverage FOR LIFE for each teacher, and the same benefits for the spouse of said teacher up until retirement and for their children until age 25.

And before you jump to defense of your country and say "that's ridiculous, you guys are retarded", or some other gibberish that I often hear people come back with, keep in mind that the minimum wage in Ontario is currently $11.25 per hour and heading to $12 soon and that the provincial debt in Ontario is less than 300 billion dollars, a rather respectable amount for the country's largest province, in a system that provides fully funded, socialist style (but state-of-the-art) education, health care, food insurance programs, social programs, etc, etc... The Federal debt is $1.2 Trillion dollars and the Fed projections feel like they can get that under 1 trillion within 2 years, provided our dollar rebounds as expected. Compared to the between 14-17 trillion dollar U.S. Federal debt, which only seems to be on the rise, we're doing ok.

IO, I agree, but Echo is just a gym teacher. He may teach health but that is about it.

 

[perseverare]

he is also a legend in his own mind!

 

[McIlhennyIrish]

he is also a legend in his own mind!

Dress right dress! jock strap inspections. Then, 30 squat thrusts.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Perse,

I believe Oklahoma had 4 new starters along their offensive line and they went to the playoffs... There is nothing we can do about graduation man. Unfortunately guys leave.

This is what ND's offensive line looks likes...

LT: Mike McGlinchey (SR)- Future 1st round NFL draft pick. Graded out higher than Stanley in 2010, who is about to be a top 10 pick.
2. Hunter Bivin (SR)- 4 Star, #9 OT, #97 overall composite.

LG: Quenton Nelson (JR)- 4 Star, #5 OT, #62 overall composite. Likely future 1st round draft pick.
2. Tommy Kraemer (FR)- 4 Star, #3 OT, #27 overall composite.

C: Sam Mustipher (JR)- 4 Star, #12 OG, #216 overall composite.
2. Tristen Hoge (SOPH)- 4 Star, #1 C, #89 overall composite.

RG: Tristen Hoge (SOPH)- 4 Star, #1 C, #89 overall composite.
2. Tommy Kraemer (FR)- 4 Star, #3 OT, #27 overall composite.

RT: Alex Bars (JR)- 4 Star, #10 OT, #106 overall composite.
2. Hunter Bivin (SR) 4 Star, #9 OT, 97 overall composite.

Losing 3 starters always makes you a little bit uneasy about the OL, but there are very few teams in the country that can replace OL right now like ND. That group might take a little bit to gel, but you won't find 3 more talented, highly regarded "2-deeps" in the country than at ND.

 

[perseverare]

McGlinch is less advanced at being an OL. He is talented.
3 future # 1's is a possibility; but OL is a position the is essentially a single unit. So we need to see what happens with the 2 new inexperienced additions.

 

[McIlhennyIrish]

Everyone puts our OL as our biggest asset but that is more because the defense is expecting purple face to pass. If we were a run first offense, the OL would be under severe scrutiny, HH is not all he is cracked up to be. Stanley, IMO, is not a 1st round selection,

 

[IrishInOntario]

ND rushing attempts in 2015: 479
ND rushing yards in 2015: 2699 yards last year, good for #27 nationally.

ND passing attempts in 2015: 385
ND passing yards in 2015: 3364 yards last year, good for #37 nationally.

Guess What? This is a rushing team, that happens to strive for balance, but understands that it has some quality backs and a good OL. I'd expect that number to move even more in favour of rushing this year because ND graduated it's 3 starting receivers and will rely on it's run game more, IMO.

Why is Harry Hiestand not a good coach? And Ronnie Stanley is definitely going to be a 1st round pick.

 

[perseverare]

^ you know stats are for losers. It is when you run and how you run that is the key.
Because the offense had a threat to run that was equal to the threat to pass the offense was better than anytime under Kelly. A huge part of this was Kizer's leadership and his ability to run/pass in clutch situations.
Too think he would have languished on the bench, if Kelly had not be forced to play him!

 

[PurpleKelly]

^ you know stats are for losers. It is when you run and how you run that is the key.
Because the offense had a threat to run that was equal to the threat to pass the offense was better than anytime under Kelly. A huge part of this was Kizer's leadership and his ability to run/pass in clutch situations.
Too think he would have languished on the bench, if Kelly had not be forced to play him!

Exactly. If the defense knew we were going to rush the bal llike BAMA they would have stuffed us like Clemson did for 3 QTR's until coach of the year figured it out.

 

[Classic Irish]

Exactly. If the defense knew we were going to rush the bal llike BAMA they would have stuffed us like Clemson did for 3 QTR's until coach of the year figured it out.

I'll just save myself the time and put this clown right on the ignore list. Don't bother replying since I won't be able to see it. Bye.

 

[PurpleKelly]

I'll just save myself the time and put this clown right on the ignore list. Don't bother replying since I won't be able to see it. Bye.

Another guy that wishes Lindsey Nelson was the play by play man. This guy is dumb,

 

[IrishInOntario]

^ you know stats are for losers. It is when you run and how you run that is the key.
Because the offense had a threat to run that was equal to the threat to pass the offense was better than anytime under Kelly. A huge part of this was Kizer's leadership and his ability to run/pass in clutch situations.
Too think he would have languished on the bench, if Kelly had not be forced to play him!

Malik Zaire is actually the better runner of the two. Kizer is certainly capable, but Zaire is much faster and despite being shorter, is probably stronger as well. Did you watch the LSU game? He's a dynamic runner. Wimbush is probably actually the best of the 3, but we already know that you think he sucks despite having the best arm of the three and 10.5 100m speed, because he's 6'1 and not 6'4.

Also, the people suggesting that the only reason Notre Dame is a good running team is because of the QB's threat to run, I say NO SHIT, you think? A read-option team relies on the QB to be able to be a running threat as well? Fancy that. We don't line up with a fullback. We rarely play two attached tight ends... Last time ND played an SEC team ND ran the ball down LSU's throat for 4 quarters. The fact that it happened to be the quarterback doing a lot of the damage is irrelevant. He has a read. He can handoff the inside zone run or the counter if the key'd defender stays at home, or he can pull the ball and keep it if the Key'd defender jumps the handoff. Ohio State won a national championship two years ago doing that very thing. Clemson ran at will on Alabama this year doing it. Came up short, but for any fault of the offense.

 

[perseverare]

see, that is your method! you lie!
I have always thought Wim was a top prospect. To imply otherwise is a deliberate distortion of the truths.

As for foot speed DK had a few runs of some distance. As to who is faster, I don’t know. Who runs faster holding a football and under fire? Splitting hairs, because MZ is not a guy with exceptional speed.
Wim is the probably better runner of MZ and Wim.

DK had the offense more potent in clutch time than in years. He has the intangible. MZ or Wim are yet to prove that.

Verbose B.S. does not equal authority nor expertise.

(btw: Watson ran at will vs Bama; and the Clemson offense was DW! Had ND faced Clemson on a sunny day DW would have hung 50 on ND; geez 2 years since ND played a sub par LSU ( if they were not, they would not have been playing ND) team in a tough game decided late and ND fans still hang onto that as a lament of greatness! geez give it up people!)

 

[IrishInOntario]

Wimbush is by far the fastest of the 3. You don't run 10.5 in 100m if you're not straight up fast.

As for Kizer, I agree that he was pretty clutch when ND needed him this year. Love the kid. I thought he would take 3 years to develop into a player capable of commanding the starting job and he did it in about 1.5 years. Happy to be wrong there because we know we have a proven starter... Malik Zaire has done nothing but impress in his opportunities as well, however. He was THE star in ND's bowl win over LSU and Tigers had no answer for him and he was about sharp as a QB can be when they throttled Texas. He looked off in the first half of the game against Virginia. His throwing mechanics were not great and it caused him some accuracy issues, but he was rebounding and about to lead his team in for a key score when he broke his ankle. I think the kid can play and by all accounts, Mike Sanford loves his competitive edge.

A great problem to have in South Bend right now. Two guys you trust can lead your team and a third guy (who might better than both of them) coming along nicely.

 

[TheDecker]

Everyone puts our OL as our biggest asset but that is more because the defense is expecting purple face to pass. If we were a run first offense, the OL would be under severe scrutiny, HH is not all he is cracked up to be. Stanley, IMO, is not a 1st round selection,

It's hysterical watching you be wrong about every single thing you say..........especially when it's several times in the same post



1. ND ran 100x more than it passed in 2015

2. ND has run more than it passed every year since 2011

3. ND was one of the better rushing offenses in CFB in 2015 (strong combination of efficiency, production, and versatility)

4. Heistand is respected as one of the best OL coaches in the business, by those who actually have brains

5. Stanley will absolutely go in the 1st Round......likely in the Top10 Overall



Sorry to have to hammer you so much in a single post
(not really)

 

[TheDecker]

^ you know stats are for losers. It is when you run and how you run that is the key.
Because the offense had a threat to run that was equal to the threat to pass the offense was better than anytime under Kelly. A huge part of this was Kizer's leadership and his ability to run/pass in clutch situations.
Too think he would have languished on the bench, if Kelly had not be forced to play him!

Except ND ran the ball more than we passed it, teams lined slanted against the run (especially the interior run)...........and we still had great success running the ball

So you're really just making a BS claim with nothing to back it up (at all)




The issue we did have was when teams could slant against the run without any fear of damage in other areas (deep pass, outside run, end-around, etc.)
We ran into this issue especially often in the Red-Zone, which needs to improve in 2016

 

[IrishInOntario]

Don't worry Decker, the agenda of some of the posters on this board is to just make crap up, until you provide evidence that completely falsifies what they are saying. At that point they simply revert to changing their argument to work around the inadequacies within it, rather that simply admit they were wrong and move on. Fact is that ND was last year and continues to be this year, a run-based offense, with a vertical passing attack that they employ against defensive fronts that leave ND shorthanded for blockers in the run game, but give ND favourable passing matchups on the perimeter in cover 1 and cover 0 looks.

ND's offense really only faces 2 consistent challenges...

1. Running in the red zone against loaded fronts because the pass checks get tougher as the sideline and endzone constrict the space DB's need to defend in man-to-man coverage.

2. Running between the tackles against teams that run blitz a ton and slant their DL and cause disruption in the backfield amongst the pulling guards and between the quarterback and the running back on the exchange.

Outside of overcoming those two issues (every offense has issues) ND's offense is as dangerous and hard to defend as just about anyone's... That all starts with having a good offensive line and good backs that can run their track properly and with patience and vision.

Case in point when I talk about people making crap up that fits their agenda... A couple posts ago Perse just responded to my post by saying "you know stats are for losers"... This is the same guy who has mounted countless arguments about recruiting numbers and rankings (stats) and how they translate to success on the field (an argument that I actually agree with for the most part)... But I ask you Perse, how is it that stats are for losers when other people present them to strengthen their case, but that applies when they are the key to the arguments that fit your agenda?

 

[john0gaunt]

guys, your're feeding the trolls...

 

[greengael]

guys, your're feeding the trolls...

Amen!

 

[perseverare]

if you can't understand the use of stats then don't throw them out.

and you don't understand them.


When why and how the run is used is what I said matters. Kelly's run stats have always been misleading. He is like pro boxer that is a puncher who professes to want to box but as soon as he is hit he forgets and becomes 'puncher'. Kelly gets behind and it become pass pass pass. Plus look of run plays? Are they the kind thatvallow an OL to tee off and dominate? When have you seen ND do that for more than a series? Hence RZ woes.

 

[artemis gordon]

It's really a shame you guys pay your teachers as little as you do in most states. It's a huge part of the reason your education system is going down the shitter because a lot of very bright people are being steered away from the profession because there is such little compensation for a tough, thankless (in many cases) job. When I lived in the U.S. I got to know quite a few high school teachers, man you guys have a tough job. You have deplorable compensation and benefits in comparison to a lot of G7/8 countries.

Ontario high school teachers will full qualifications make $94,600 per year (without teaching any summer school, which can bring that total up over $110,000). Included also are 2 weeks of annual paid holidays (on top of summers, spring break, Christmas holidays and and all government holidays off) as well as 12 paid sick days (one per month) each year... Ontario teachers also get a full pension FOR LIFE after retirement and it pays between 70-80% of your working wage, even in retirement. Should you die, your spouse collects your pension until their passing as well. Furthermore, the job comes with 100% medical, 100% dental, and 97% prescription coverage FOR LIFE for each teacher, and the same benefits for the spouse of said teacher up until retirement and for their children until age 25.

And before you jump to defense of your country and say "that's ridiculous, you guys are retarded", or some other gibberish that I often hear people come back with, keep in mind that the minimum wage in Ontario is currently $11.25 per hour and heading to $12 soon and that the provincial debt in Ontario is less than 300 billion dollars, a rather respectable amount for the country's largest province, in a system that provides fully funded, socialist style (but state-of-the-art) education, health care, food insurance programs, social programs, etc, etc... The Federal debt is $1.2 Trillion dollars and the Fed projections feel like they can get that under 1 trillion within 2 years, provided our dollar rebounds as expected. Compared to the between 14-17 trillion dollar U.S. Federal debt, which only seems to be on the rise, we're doing ok.

Mr. Ontario: Here in the States there is an inverse mathematical correlation between teacher salaries and academic performance . The dumbest people tend to major in Education, thus the poor results. In the 1950's and 60's teachers were poorly paid and yet they were light years better than today's crop. Canadian demographics are also nothing like ours.

 

[IrishInOntario]

There you go again looking silly Perse...

Somebody states that ND is a pass-based offense. We provided one clear statistic that shows ND had far-and-away more rushing attempts than passing attempts last year. That, by definition, negates and refutes any argument towards ND's offense being pass-based.

I don't know how to use statistics though... Sure bud.

Just like I didn't know how to use statistics yesterday when I laid out the same recruiting rankings you use to validate your points and you responded with a very Perse like "All I can say is it matters who you line up beside" or something to that affect. All-of-a-sudden when the statistics that you quote frequently no longer worked in favour of your agenda, you reverted to a nonsense, cop-out answer given that I had already provided you with the names and rankings of the players that each guy would be lining up beside.

Keep digging Perse, you have to be half way to China by now big guy.

 

[perseverare]

ok...you might be the most verbose bag o wind on this board; your probably the only guy in creation that would try to argue that ND under Kelly is a 'running' team.

I Think you just try to impress yourself with lottsa words. It just gets boring and pointless after a while.

 

[TheDecker]

if you can't understand the use of stats then don't throw them out.

and you don't understand them.


When why and how the run is used is what I said matters. Kelly's run stats have always been misleading. He is like pro boxer that is a puncher who professes to want to box but as soon as he is hit he forgets and becomes 'puncher'. Kelly gets behind and it become pass pass pass. Plus look of run plays? Are they the kind thatvallow an OL to tee off and dominate? When have you seen ND do that for more than a series? Hence RZ woes.

We potato!

Did Kelly go pass, pass, pass when we are behind in the USC game this year? What about the Stanford game? I assume we did nothing but pass pass pass in that game, right?

if your defense is open quotations when Kelly gets behind by a lot, he's more likely to pass an increased amount" Tatian's then you must hate literally every single competent football coach in America.

Speaking of not understanding the statistics and what you're talking about...

 

[TheDecker]

Notre Dame's 2015 offense was undebateably based in the run game...and it will be again in 2015.

Kelly tailors his offense to the skills of his personnel....as does every quality coach

 

[IrishInOntario]

Mr. Ontario: Here in the States there is an inverse mathematical correlation between teacher salaries and academic performance . The dumbest people tend to major in Education, thus the poor results. In the 1950's and 60's teachers were poorly paid and yet they were light years better than today's crop. Canadian demographics are also nothing like ours.

Artemis,

Why would the smartest people in America want to major in education when there is so little financial reward or benefit incentive to get involved in education at the high school or elementary level? Coupled with the price of your education, I wouldn't want to be an American teacher either. Get paid like crap and have student debts for years and years? No thanks.

Secondly, I think you guys make it WAAAAAYYYY too easy for just anybody to become a teacher. Up here to become a high school teacher you must complete a 4 year undergraduate degree in which you obtain a major and two minors (your two teachables on top of your major) to even apply to teacher's college. At that point, you have to get accepted to one of few EXTREMELY competitive teachers colleges throughout the country and complete a 2 year Masters in Education program, at which time, you become a certified teacher up graduation... So it takes you 6 years to become a teacher in Canada. Fortunately, because the cost of our education is lunacy like yours, the total cost of that 6 year degree Is between $45,000-$50,000... Or the equivalent about ONE year at Notre Dame. With that degree you can get the job that I outlined in my post above.

My area of advanced study was in comparative politics between the United States and Canada. The two specific things that my research and study focused on the most were education and health care system differences between Canada and the United States. This is just one opinion, but I feel that there is no clear cut better medical system. Both of our systems (yours has obviously changed a lot) have strengths and weaknesses... But with all due respect, I'd be more than happy to have a great conversation with you regarding how broken your education system is. It's actually one of my favourite topics of interest.

You're so right that the American education system was once the class of the world, but that drop off has been immense and that it's getting worse, not better...

5 key points from my thesis that I think are real problems...

1. Inferior federal mandated support for schools and education in America. I know the separation between State and Federal money is a hot topic in the U.S. and I know that the last thing many Americans want are Feds telling their state how to use their tax payers money for education... But look around the work. The countries that have strongest Federal ties to education, also have the best educated kids. Although Canadians kids are still among the 10 most educated in the world, we actually have a quasi U.S. / socialist system. Education falls under provincial control, much like in the States, but there are much tighter controls by the Federal government to ensure that the provinces' education money is being used properly and making it's way to the kids.

2. Inferior education for teachers, compared to other G7/8 countries. The rest of the world has realized that if you want bright, talented, motivated people teaching your kids, you must make their education a rigorous process, weeding out those who simply want to collect a paycheck or obtain a job easily. However if you're going to make the education plan for teachers long and rigorous, it also has to be affordable. Again, 6 years of tuition up here will cost you around $50,000. That's at universities that rank between top 20-100 in the world. Not second and third tier institutions, but nationally and internationally recognized institutions. Why would I want to spend 6 years becoming a teacher if it's going to cost me $300,000 to do so? That's more than 3 years wage for a Canadian high school teacher.

3. Speaking of compensation, if you don't compensate teachers like business men, engineers, those involved in sciences, etc, etc, why would bright capitalists want to become involved in the profession? Your teachers are woefully underpaid compared to the other G7/8 countries. The "American Dream" is about working your ass off towards something in order to obtain fair compensation and reward for said work, is it not? Teachers don't seem to fit into that equation do they? It seems more like a life of debt and hovering just above the poverty line, while your friends from school go to work at big corporations, on Wall Street, in Silicon Valley, etc, etc for six-figure salaries... Hell, I would do that, wouldn't you?

4. Complete inequality from one school to the next, one city to the next and one state to the next. I don't think I need to dive deep into this socio-economic, race related, and geographic cans of worms. It doesn't end well. I'll simply say this. Anywhere you go in Canada, every student gets the same quality of education and basically the same resources to obtain that education. We don't have private universities that tend to accept more kids from the wealthier schools vs the inner city schools, etc, etc. It doesn't matter if you are from the middle of nowhere Northern Ontario (like I was) or from the wealthiest private school in Montreal or Toronto. You have the same admissions standards and the better candidate gets in. Period. Sorority's and fraternity's are basically just social clubs here and being a "legacy" means virtually nothing when applying to a school... Oh and every student applying to University or College in Canada is approved for a student loan from the federal / provincials government (they split the cost). It's very simple. They look at your financial needs and approve you for a yearly loan based on that need. If you graduate on time and in good academic standing they grant you a certain percentage of that loan (it varies from province-to-province). In my case I borrowed $31,000 over my University career and was forced to pay back 60% of the loan, with a 40% grant based on my graduating on time and my academic achievement while in school. It's a great motivator and incentive program. You begin paying your loan back 8 months after graduation and you can apply for 2, 8 month extensions if you have not found work in your chosen field of work within your first 8 months out of school.

5. Lastly, it's on the parents too. Studies have shown that modern American parents spend less time with their children, less time promoting school, homework and promoting the idea of education, than ever before. There are lot of theories behind this, but technology seems to be one of the biggest culprits. Parents are obsessed with social media every bit as much as their children are these days and in a lot of cases, parents are drones to their television, Netflicks, cell phones, laptops, tablets, twitter, Facebook, Insagram, etc, etc every bit as much as their children are... That's without even talking about video games and that industry has sapped the souls of children and parents alike. Many modern parents are sending their children to school each day and simply saying "here you go, you educate them" but there is no more team effort between the teacher and parent to coordinate learning, or to promote responsibility.

 

[deadirishpoet]

IO, I agree, but Echo is just a gym teacher. He may teach health but that is about it.

Regardless what you think. echo is knowledgeable of the game. His post are well thoughtout. He is respectful, and another quality thread is dragged into the crapper.

Thanks

 

[IrishInOntario]

ok...you might be the most verbose bag o wind on this board; your probably the only guy in creation that would try to argue that ND under Kelly is a 'running' team.

I Think you just try to impress yourself with lottsa words. It just gets boring and pointless after a while.

if you can't understand the use of stats then don't throw them out.

and you don't understand them.


When why and how the run is used is what I said matters. Kelly's run stats have always been misleading. He is like pro boxer that is a puncher who professes to want to box but as soon as he is hit he forgets and becomes 'puncher'. Kelly gets behind and it become pass pass pass. Plus look of run plays? Are they the kind thatvallow an OL to tee off and dominate? When have you seen ND do that for more than a series? Hence RZ woes.

Try to keep up Perse... Both Decker and I are talking about last year, as in 2015, which we've stated numerous times... 2015 was undeniably a run based offense and 2016 will be no different. A combination of personnel and the addition of Mike Sanford is the obvious reason for the offense to head further into that direction.

When have I seen ND run schemes that allow their OL to tee off and dominate for more than a series? Should I link you to game replays of the Stanford game last year when ND pulled guards and tackles all game and ran it down the Cardinal's throat, or should I link you to a replay of the LSU bowl game in 2014 when ND spent the entire game in multiple TE looks and Folston and Zaire smashed LSU for 4 quarters behind ND's offensive line and multiple TE looks?

Against Stanford last year...

Notre Dame rushed 35 times (10 more than they passed) for 300 yards and 2 TDs. They ran the ball predominantly for large stretches of the game, they produced a 128 yard rusher in that game and a 168 yard rusher in that game. They averaged 8.5 yards per carry and Josh Adams averaged 9.3 yards per carry... Is that teeing off enough for you?

Against Navy last year...

Notre Dame rushed 40 times (10 more than they passed) for 178 yards and 4 TDs. CJ Procise alone had 129 yards, averaged 6.1 yards per carry and scored 3 rushing TD's... is that teeing off enough for you?

Against Texas last year...

Notre Dame rushed 50 times (27 more than they passed) for 218 yards and 2 TD's. Procise and Adams combined for about 7 yards per carry and 2 rushing TD's... is 50 carries not teeing off enough for you?

Against LSU in the 2014 bowl game (Zaire's first start)...

Notre Dame rushed 51 times (25 more than they passed) for 263 yards and 3 TD's against a tough SEC defense. Procise, Folston and Zaire combined to average over 5 yards per carry... Is 51 carries not teeing off enough for you?

You asked me when the last time I saw Notre Dame run like this for more than a series... There are just 4 examples from this past season, plus the last game of the season before it, when ND's identity began to shift with the insertion of Zaire at QB.

 

[TheDecker]

ok...you might be the most verbose bag o wind on this board; your probably the only guy in creation that would try to argue that ND under Kelly is a 'running' team.

I Think you just try to impress yourself with lottsa words. It just gets boring and pointless after a while.

In 2015 they were a "running team" and they will be again in 2016

In reality, they're a balanced spread offense that's based on:
1. Zone running
2. Deep passing
3. Zone read
4. Short passes to create an "extended run game"