Did Kelly really leave the program in better shape than Weis?

[john0gaunt]

That's right, I'm going there.

Kelly inherited from Weis a team with (2) 5* QB's. (of which he developed neither)
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin

And Weis had recruited Manti who arrived for the 2010 season.

Kelly leaves MF a team with:
Jack Coan
Michael Mayer
?

It is clear the schedule watered down the last few seasons and does not compare with the earlier SOS. So, sure Kelly won lots of games. But when he had to play Michigan, Michigan State, Miami, usc, and a ranked Stanford in the same year, he lost 5 games.

 

[BGI User 1596]

That's right, I'm going there.

Kelly inherited from Weis a team with (2) 5* QB's. (of which he developed neither)
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin

And Weis had recruited Manti who arrived for the 2010 season.

Kelly leaves MF a team with:
Jack Coan
Michael Mayer
?

It is clear the schedule watered down the last few seasons and does not compare with the earlier SOS. So, sure Kelly won lots of games. But when he had to play Michigan, Michigan State, Miami, usc, and a ranked Stanford in the same year, he lost 5 games.

Ouch!

 

[echowaker]

That's right, I'm going there.

Kelly inherited from Weis a team with (2) 5* QB's. (of which he developed neither)
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin

And Weis had recruited Manti who arrived for the 2010 season.

Kelly leaves MF a team with:
Jack Coan
Michael Mayer
?

It is clear the schedule watered down the last few seasons and does not compare with the earlier SOS. So, sure Kelly won lots of games. But when he had to play Michigan, Michigan State, Miami, usc, and a ranked Stanford in the same year, he lost 5 games.

Dumb question to say the least. Weis left a top heavy roster and an incredibly soft team. The team Freeman has inherited is talented and deep across the board. No one ever did less for more than Weis.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Kelly absolutely left ND in better shape but at least Weis wasn’t a quitter and gave his all to the university.

 

[ZVZ]

way better now

 

[john0gaunt]

No facts from anyone, just opinions so far. Who on Kelly's roster is equal to any one of these players?

Jimmy Clausen
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo

KH is great, but he's going to the league.

 

[IrishFforida]

I mean this has got to be the most ridiculous thread ever started.

How about we START with the old Bill Parcells line

"You are what your record says you are"
Weis last 3 seasons at ND 16-21 ***Program on a 4 game losing streak when he got canned BTW***
Kelly last 3 seasons at ND 33-4

If that isn't enough (AND IT IS!!!)

Weis left behind a defense that was in complete shambles and a DC (Jon Tenuta) who was a complete disaster at ND. And Tenuta replaced a DC (Corwin Brown) who was an even bigger disaster.

The team was slow, out of shape, undisciplined and the roster 20-85 was a trainwreck. The program was an unadulterated DISASTER

 

[IrishFforida]

No facts from anyone, just opinions so far. Who on Kelly's roster is equal to any one of these players?

Jimmy Clausen
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo

KH is great, but he's going to the league.

Every one of those players is on offense. The exception was Teo who was just a True Freshman. Teo developed into an All-American in 2012. after 3 years of Kelly & Diaco coaching him, and then surrounding him with good players. Not guys like Kerry Neal, Paddy Mullen, Scott Smith, Toryan Smith, John Ryan, Sean Cwynar, Brian Smith etc. WIth all due respect those guys were terrible

 

[echowaker]

No facts from anyone, just opinions so far. Who on Kelly's roster is equal to any one of these players?

Jimmy Clausen
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo

KH is great, but he's going to the league.

Since you're asking, Mayer for certain for starters. You do understand that a team is made up of way more than 9 players. Easiest thing in the world to cherry pick. Cumulatively the 2021 team is far superior to the last Weis team. The 2009 team ended the season with 4 straight losses. Weis was hot garbage. The more of his own players he had the worse they were.

 

[HooDatGuy]

No facts from anyone, just opinions so far. Who on Kelly's roster is equal to any one of these players?

Jimmy Clausen
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo

KH is great, but he's going to the league.

No one said Weis couldn't recruit the skill positions well. Maybe if he had spread the love around to the OL and Defense he would have been more successful.

Half those guys you listed never even played for BK.

 

[john0gaunt]

Every one of those players is on offense. The exception was Teo who was just a True Freshman. Teo developed into an All-American in 2012. after 3 years of Kelly & Diaco coaching him, and then surrounding him with good players. Not guys like Kerry Neal, Paddy Mullen, Scott Smith, Toryan Smith, John Ryan, Sean Cwynar, Brian Smith etc. WIth all due respect those guys were terrible

Fair enough. Wiki listed only the offense...

Harrison Smith
Robert Blanton
Zeke Motta
Darrin Walls
Manti Teo

Who is MF inheriting that beats Harrison Smith or Manti?

 

[john0gaunt]

Since you're asking, Mayer for certain for starters. You do understand that a team is made up of way more than 9 players. Easiest thing in the world to cherry pick. Cumulatively the 2021 team is far superior to the last Weis team. The 2009 team ended the season with 4 straight losses. Weis was hot garbage. The more of his own players he had the worse they were.

Mayer is great, but I would prefer having both Tyler E AND K Rudolph on my team if I were a coach.

 

[Syd4ND]

No facts from anyone, just opinions so far. Who on Kelly's roster is equal to any one of these players?

Jimmy Clausen
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo

KH is great, but he's going to the league.

Who recruited Harrison Smith? I'm asking because I can't remember. But Kelly recruited Tillery and Tranquill and Claypool , Tuitt, Fuller, McGlinchey , Nelson, Tremble, Kmet and Mayer and last but not least Jaylon Smith. And if Kelly did not recruit as well then isn't it correct the program is better? The culture the attitude the toughness. You know the things that matter more than talent.

 

[john0gaunt]

Who recruited Harrison Smith?

Smith was a SR on Kelly's first team. So, it was Weis.

Sure, Kelly recruited a lot of great players. But what did Kelly leave Freeman?

Weis left Kelly a 2 or 3 year 5* starter a QB.
Another 5* backup at QB.
Tommy Rees

Kelly left Freeman a grad transfer.

 

[r2p2]

The state of ND football is NOT the product of the efforts of 1 individual. Clear proof of that is the status at the end of the 4-8 year. The total reformation of the staff and inclusion of a new group of very talented coaches is the reason the program is as sound as it is on BK’s departure. I honestly believe the program advanced itself on the night BK betrayed ND, his staff, the fans and the players. This is the best ND staff and team status in 12+ years.

 

[john0gaunt]

Easiest thing in the world to cherry pick.

You can cherry pick Mayer, but when I list 14 star players, that's not ok?

Public school employees.. SMH.

 

[HooDatGuy]

Smith was a SR on Kelly's first team. So, it was Weis.

Sure, Kelly recruited a lot of great players. But what did Kelly leave Freeman?

Weis left Kelly a 2 or 3 year 5* starter a QB.
Another 5* backup at QB.
Tommy Rees

Kelly left Freeman a grad transfer.

Buchner not up to your standards? Crist stunk, who cares what his ranking was. He was the only 5*.

You don't even have your years right. Stop posting.

 

[john0gaunt]

Buchner not up to your standards? Crist stunk, who cares what his ranking was. He was the only 5*.

You don't even have your years right. Stop posting.

I understand, you're confused.

Jimmy Clausen had one year of eligibility remaining. Kelly couldn't get him to stay.

I'm a big fan of Buchner, but Kelly was left Clausen, Crist, and Rees.

Listen, I'd love to hear the argument against my question. but shut up isn't it princess.

 

[savvyandsassier]

All you're going to do is create sympathy for BK, is that what you're trying to accomplish here?

I guess it's always the true psychos like yourself that ruin it for everyone else. The rest of the haters are trying to keep the Kelly bashing going, with more realistic low-key jabs, that are at least arguable that BK is maybe a tiny bit guilty of, or whatever... Something at least halfway plausible. Like if someone transfers out of LSU, they taunt him and LOL about it, that sort of thing...

Because otherwise you guys are still paralyzed, and if not BK who else you going to go after? Bill Polian? That's no fun...

And then you come along and make absurdly ridiculous claims, which a kook like you is wont to do, and then everybody has to defend BK..... Just because, you know, they're not completely nuts. So nice job, OP....

 

[HooDatGuy]

I understand, you're confused.

Jimmy Clausen had one year of eligibility remaining. Kelly couldn't get him to stay.

I'm a big fan of Buchner, but Kelly was left Clausen, Crist, and Rees.

Listen, I'd love to hear the argument against my question. but shut up isn't it princess.

lol! So Clausen leaving because he was a 1st or 2nd round pick and he didn't want to be a guinea pig for a new coach is now Kelly's fault. You don't get to count players who opt in for the NFL to make your stupid point. That's the nature of CFB. Clausen was gone with Weis or Kelly dolt.

 

[twalsh]

The program is in infinitely better shape today than it was at the end of the 2009 season. We haven't had this quality depth since the Holtz era, and I'm not even totally sure we had it back then. We now redshirt for roster management reasons, not because the kids are not ready to contribute. So we have redshirted kids stepping in and playing at a very high level, while previously being pretty much unknown, like Bertrand this year.

 

[john0gaunt]

Clausen was gone with Weis or Kelly dolt.

So, I can't list the talent Weis left for Kelly, but you can pull things out of your ass and claim them as facts?

 

[HooDatGuy]

So, I can't list the talent Weis left for Kelly, but you can pull things out of your ass and claim them as facts?

He declared immediately after Weis was fired and before we knew the next coach. No incoming coach was going to have him. Stop being dumb dummy.

 

[john0gaunt]

He declared immediately after Weis was fired and before we knew the next coach. No incoming coach was going to have him. Stop being dumb dummy.

Did Kelly contact him? What was the nature of the conversations?

You don't know. Kelly inherited the player, but could not keep him. Kelly had problems retaining guys for their full eligibility. It started with Jimmy C and Golden Tate.

Would love to hear the argument against, but I haven't seen it yet on this thread.

 

[FightingIrish44]

I understand, you're confused.

Jimmy Clausen had one year of eligibility remaining. Kelly couldn't get him to stay.

I'm a big fan of Buchner, but Kelly was left Clausen, Crist, and Rees.

Listen, I'd love to hear the argument against my question. but shut up isn't it princess.

Kelly wasn’t “left” with Clausen. Clausen was already a year older than his class and was probably always going pro after his third year. Crist with his five stars and two extra years of experience couldn’t even win out over a three star freshman like Rees with a minimal offer sheet.

Also a program/team is much more than who is a potential NFL talent. Its a team game and coaching is very important. As someone said there are more people than the best 8-10 players on the team. Kelly is leaving after a great four year run while Weis left after two six loss seasons. I have to believe Kelly developed players who are still on the roster better than Weis did before he left. There’s also program perception and the perception of ND has to be better.

 

[HooDatGuy]

Did Kelly contact him? What was the nature of the conversations?

You don't know. Kelly inherited the player, but could not keep him. Kelly had problems retaining guys for their full eligibility. It started with Jimmy C and Golden Tate.

Would love to hear the argument against, but I haven't seen it yet on this thread.

Weak. So weak. Once you declare your eligibility is over, no take backs. God you are dumb.

 

[Syd4ND]

Smith was a SR on Kelly's first team. So, it was Weis.

Sure, Kelly recruited a lot of great players. But what did Kelly leave Freeman?

Weis left Kelly a 2 or 3 year 5* starter a QB.
Another 5* backup at QB.
Tommy Rees

Kelly left Freeman a grad transfer.

So for you then this is really only about the QB position?

 

[john0gaunt]

So for you then this is really only about the QB position?

No, but QB is where the situation is most apparent. 2 five stars and Kelly's future OC.

Jimmy Clausen
D Crist
Tommy Rees
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo
Harrison Smith
Robert Blanton
Zeke Motta
Darrin Walls
Kona Schwenke
Darius Fleming
Prince Shembo

 

[shooter1977]

Weis lost more regular games (four) in a 21 day stretch in November 2009 than Kelly did over his last four seasons as head coach.

And if you actually watched the games in 2009-2010 you would realize what a ridiculous topic this year.

 

[john0gaunt]

Weis lost more regular games (four) in a 21 day stretch in November 2009 than Kelly did over his last four seasons as head coach.

And if you actually watched the games in 2009-2010 you would realize what a ridiculous topic this year.

Sadly, this isn't really an argument as you think it is.

When Kelly had to play Michigan, Mich St, Stanford, usc and Miami, and a ranked Utah, he lost 5 games.

But you're right and I am not arguing against, once Kelly had mostly ACC teams on his schedule, he won more games. Yay!

 

[iwish]

You seem to be hell-bent on your opinion and being right. You also seem focused on the individual talent and may slightly be leveraging their future production post-Irish into your argument.

You asked if the "Program" is in better shape - yes, it most definitely seems to be by pretty much all accounts, but to name a few:

• Team record, performance, and playoff appearances
• Recruiting classes/position depth
• Strength and Conditioning program
• Overall Football program staff quality
• Team cohesiveness and player perspective (as communicated by current and former players)

 

[echowaker]

You can cherry pick Mayer, but when I list 14 star players, that's not ok?

Public school employees.. SMH.

Comprehension not your strong suit ? The 2021 roster top to bottom is far superior. Not going to list all 85 from both teams. Care to discuss player development next ?

 

[Kelso86]

That's right, I'm going there.

Kelly inherited from Weis a team with (2) 5* QB's. (of which he developed neither)
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin

And Weis had recruited Manti who arrived for the 2010 season.

Kelly leaves MF a team with:
Jack Coan
Michael Mayer
?

It is clear the schedule watered down the last few seasons and does not compare with the earlier SOS. So, sure Kelly won lots of games. But when he had to play Michigan, Michigan State, Miami, usc, and a ranked Stanford in the same year, he lost 5 games.

Did Kelly really leave the program in better shape than Weis?"​

If you cannot see the differences, you really have not been paying attention to ND football.

Weis proved you can get talent to Notre Dame -- Kelly enhanced it
Weis had good starting players (many named above) -- Kelly got it to where ND is much deeper across the board
Weis lost many games in his last 3 years in November -- outside of 2014 and 2016 -- ND was very good in November for the most part.

There are many other things where Kelly left the program in much better shape than when he got here. Now, it is up to Freeman to pick up the baton and continue.

 

[r2p2]

By leaving, BK left the ND program in better shape than the day before he left. There that settles it.

 

[Kontiki09]

I'm not a fan of Brian Kelly as a person or a leader, but I'm not sure how any could argue that Kelly didn't leave this program in much, much better shape than Weis, Willingham, or Davie. It's abundantly clear that this team and program are better in almost every facet, especially coaching staff (outside of Quinn, Polian, and Del - 2 of which who are now gone). It's even arguable that Quinn, Polian, and Del are better than the corresponding positional coaches Weis had during his tenure.

To me, Kelly had 2 big flaws that held him back from winning a NC at ND: (1) he was incredibly arrogant and obstinate, despite clear evidence of changes needing to be made (Diaco, Polian, failure in developing QBs, etc...); and (2) he didn't really recruit all that well. But, Kelly absolutely had a strong hand in player development, and the only position that arguable regressed during his tenure was the QB position.

Regardless, he left this program in much better shape.

 

[Syd4ND]

No, but QB is where the situation is most apparent. 2 five stars and Kelly's future OC.

Jimmy Clausen
D Crist
Tommy Rees
Tyler Eifert
Kyle Rudolph
Cierre Wood
M. Floyd
G. Tate
Theo Riddick
Z. Martin
M. Teo
Harrison Smith
Robert Blanton
Zeke Motta
Darrin Walls
Kona Schwenke
Darius Fleming
Prince Shembo

Clauson left to the NFL

 

[john0gaunt]

• Team record, performance, and playoff appearances

I maintain that Kelly played a weaker schedule the last few years, so his record would be better.

• Recruiting classes/position depth

I listed 18 players with at least 6 or 7 that are better than any player Kelly left

• Strength and Conditioning program

Kelly also had problems with S and C for at least his first 4 years

• Overall Football program staff quality

I would argue that after BVG, Kelly was no longer choosing his assistants alone, but the administration was making the decisions.

• Team cohesiveness and player perspective (as communicated by current and former players)

The players are united to see his back.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Kelly wasn’t “left” with Clausen. Clausen was already a year older than his class and was probably always going pro after his third year. Crist with his five stars and two extra years of experience couldn’t even win out over a three star freshman like Rees with a minimal offer sheet.

Also a program/team is much more than who is a potential NFL talent. Its a team game and coaching is very important. As someone said there are more people than the best 8-10 players on the team. Kelly is leaving after a great four year run while Weis left after two six loss seasons. I have to believe Kelly developed players who are still on the roster better than Weis did before he left. There’s also program perception and the perception of ND has to be better.

You could bash BK for not developing Crist. At that point Crist still did look like a five-star recruit with all the potential in the world. And BK basically rejected him. And turned things over to Rees completely after the USF loss, and he was done with Crist who was too much of a Ned Flanders....

So that's a slam on BK, that he failed to develop, just because of his own personal bullshit, he failed to commit himself to developing a superior talent in Dayne Crist, and because Rees was probably more knowledgeable, being the son of an NFL coach, BK could lean on Rees a little more, and he didn't care how much it hurt the team, having a QB with Rees' low ceiling. And that's how you could frame it.

And so that's how you bash someone like BK, with his sterling record of success... You gotta work realistic angles, even if they are completely stupid, they're at least kind of possible to take seriously. You can't be making absurd batshit claims like the OP.

 

[iwish]

I maintain that Kelly played a weaker schedule the last few years, so his record would be better.

I listed 18 players with at least 6 or 7 that are better than any player Kelly left

Kelly also had problems with S and C for at least his first 4 years

I would argue that after BVG, Kelly was no longer choosing his assistants alone, but the administration was making the decisions.

The players are united to see his back.

OK, so now I am done giving you any sort of benefit of the doubt. You're just going to argue against anything and spin it your way to "win the argument." You're being ridiculous. Whatever, best of luck to you.

 

[iwish]

By leaving, BK left the ND program in better shape than the day before he left. There that settles it.

Ignoring the purpose and tone of your saying this, it just isn't true. I'll say it for the last time, everyone needs to stop bashing BK. He's gone - he gave the school and program 12 years of his life, created a winning environment and improved program, and did a shitload for the community. Not liking him? Fine. But he's done more than most will dream of doing and is not a bad person. Everyone needs to grow up and move on.