Since 2014 ND has received commitments from only two Rivals 5 star recruits

[chaseball]

that's 4 full recruiting cycles/classes & we can even include 2018 which is nearly half way through (4.5 classes).

Quenton Nelson & Daelin Hayes the only 5 star recruits Kelly has landed a commitment from in the last ~5 years.

If this doesn't speak volumes about NDs dwindling brand power and what the most talented kids out of HS think about this football program/coaching staff/institution i don't know what will.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Does 10-15 spots makes that big of a difference? Not to mention the differences in services (D Hayes was ranked 4th in the ND class that year by 247). Kraemer, Wimbush, Alize, B Wright, Jurkovec are all 5 star talents.

 

[Bodizephax]

I am what I am ...Popeye Go Irish !! 12 and 0 in 17 !!

 

[TOMMY_23]

that's 4 full recruiting cycles/classes & we can even include 2018 which is nearly half way through (4.5 classes).

Quenton Nelson & Daelin Hayes the only 5 star recruits Kelly has landed a commitment from in the last ~5 years.

If this doesn't speak volumes about NDs dwindling brand power and what the most talented kids out of HS think about this football program/coaching staff/institution i don't know what will.

I can't wait for basketball season for a reason. I officially can't drink the overhyped-ND football kool-aid anymore.

 

[perseverare]

Does 10-15 spots makes that big of a difference? Not to mention the differences in services (D Hayes was ranked 4th in the ND class that year by 247). Kraemer, Wimbush, Alize, B Wright, Jurkovec are all 5 star talents.

then they would have gotten 5 stars; they either did or did not.

 

[Pennick44]

that's 4 full recruiting cycles/classes & we can even include 2018 which is nearly half way through (4.5 classes).

Quenton Nelson & Daelin Hayes the only 5 star recruits Kelly has landed a commitment from in the last ~5 years.

If this doesn't speak volumes about NDs dwindling brand power and what the most talented kids out of HS think about this football program/coaching staff/institution i don't know what will.

Yawn

 

[Howard Hall 74]

Hayes didn't finish a 5* - injury. There are 2 people besides the Kool-Aide drinking "Going My Way" crowd on this board, Kelly and Swarbrick, who do not realize the serious blow Kelly has dealt the program. I now know what the Jews felt like waiting for Moses to find a way out of the desert. These goofs will never get us out. Looks like 2 more years of frustration and aggravation. The blame is beginning to fall on the shoulders of the BOT for their lack of oversight.

 

[Kelso86]

that's 4 full recruiting cycles/classes & we can even include 2018 which is nearly half way through (4.5 classes).

Quenton Nelson & Daelin Hayes the only 5 star recruits Kelly has landed a commitment from in the last ~5 years.

If this doesn't speak volumes about NDs dwindling brand power and what the most talented kids out of HS think about this football program/coaching staff/institution i don't know what will.

Dude -- did you wake up in the middle of the night with a sever case of the negatives? I have seen 3 posts by you -- and dude -- you simply just need to step off the ledge and get a life. If you are waking up at 1:20 a.m. to rant a bunch of negative idiotic BS -- it is time to step away!

 

[South Bender]

The 1:20am "revelation"......Kelly sucks and can't recruit!!

Be responsible. Please don't drink and post.

 

[Telx1]

Short of getting a new talented rising HC, I think the changes engineered by Kelly this offseason were exactly what the program needed. I have no idea whether this level of make over under the umbrella of the same HC will in fact take us to an annual top ten team and major bowl wins and occasional appearances in the playoffs, etc... but anxious to find out and supporting Kelly and the team in their quest.

 

[shooter1977]

To consistently land blue chippers, you either have to win big or grease the skids like Auburn or Ole Miss.

Should Kelly be landing more top 25 talent, yes. But the last time ND was landing multiple blue-chippers per class was the late 80s, so let's not pretend this is a recent epidemic.

 

[Howard Hall 74]

To consistently land blue chippers, you either have to win big or grease the skids like Auburn or Ole Miss.

Should Kelly be landing more top 25 talent, yes. But the last time ND was landing multiple blue-chippers per class was the late 80s, so let's not pretend this is a recent epidemic.

You forget Weis. He was very successful as a recruiter of top talent. Coach, no, but got a number of great recruits that Kelly used to win and get into a championship. Since then - nada.

 

[bizzybecknd]

then they would have gotten 5 stars; they either did or did not.

Hmm guess it all depends on who you ask? Alize Mack and Nyles Morgan received 5 stars on Scout. Brock Wright was a 5 star by Lemming. Not so cut and dry.

 

[Patriot82]

Right! You can search all over and might find one o two more from various services. The bottom line is "YOU DON'T BEAT TEAMS LOADED WITH 5-STAR GUYS WITH 3 & 4 STAR GUYS". You can coach up all you want, it's just not going to happen at the college level. Notre Dame has shrunken to the level of good team that will have winning records most of the time and be reasonably competitive in most games - play for the NC? No Way!

 

[rgc7]

I can't wait for basketball season for a reason. I officially can't drink the overhyped-ND football kool-aid anymore.

Tommy,
I was never a big Kelly fan, but I really go into this season with high hopes. I really think that
If Wimbush stays healthy, and with our running backs, I see us really having a great year offensively.
Looking forward to a great season !

 

[chaseball]

You forget Weis. He was very successful as a recruiter of top talent. Coach, no, but got a number of great recruits that Kelly used to win and get into a championship. Since then - nada.

Weis could recruit but couldn't coach.
Kelly can coach but can't recruit.

ND needs to get someone in here who can do both. And they are already several years late. That total clunker of a class in 2012 alone should have cost BK his job.

 

[Patriot82]

Kelly must have pictures on someone to still be here after the total decline of the Football program.

 

[Pennick44]

Kelly must have pictures on someone to still be here after the total decline of the Football program.

Thanks to Paul Funbum for his brilliant analysis. #readmoreandpostless

 

[Classic Irish]

Hayes didn't finish a 5* - injury. There are 2 people besides the Kool-Aide drinking "Going My Way" crowd on this board, Kelly and Swarbrick, who do not realize the serious blow Kelly has dealt the program. I now know what the Jews felt like waiting for Moses to find a way out of the desert. These goofs will never get us out. Looks like 2 more years of frustration and aggravation. The blame is beginning to fall on the shoulders of the BOT for their lack of oversight.

"Us"? Still pretending to be an ND fan, I see. You forgot that you blew your cover a few months back. Go back to the Indiana board, fraud.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Weis could recruit but couldn't coach.
Kelly can coach but can't recruit.

ND needs to get someone in here who can do both. And they are already several years late. That total clunker of a class in 2012 alone should have cost BK his job.

I'd take Kelly's recruiting over Chucks

 

[perseverare]

I'd take Kelly's recruiting over Chucks

yep, that's a debate = inflamed hemorrhoids vs a toothache

 

[chaseball]

I'd take Kelly's recruiting over Chucks

Charlie Weis class rank by year (year's reflect full recruiting cycle):
Year 1: #4
Year 2: #6
Year 3: #1
Year 4: #15

Brian Kelly class rank by year
Year 1: #9
Year 2: #17
Year 3: #5
Year 4: #11
Year 5: #13
Year 6: #15
Year 7: #10

source: http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/CompositeTeamRankings

Recruiting is a cut throat zero-sum game where the talent is HIGHLY concentrated at the top (top handful of schools). Weis' 1st, 6th, and 3rd ranked back-to-back-to-back classes was a program changer. Unfortunately he couldn't coach.

BK got much better results with Weis' recruits (he was the beneficiary of Weis' classes) -- the problem is that he couldn't keep up with Weis' pace on the recruiting trail -- and as a result, BKs program has been in decay since.

 

[Howard Hall 74]

Charlie Weis class rank by year (year's reflect full recruiting cycle):
Year 1: #4
Year 2: #6
Year 3: #1
Year 4: #15

Brian Kelly class rank by year
Year 1: #9
Year 2: #17
Year 3: #5
Year 4: #11
Year 5: #13
Year 6: #15
Year 7: #10

source: http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/CompositeTeamRankings

Recruiting is a cut throat zero-sum game where the talent is HIGHLY concentrated at the top (top handful of schools). Weis' 1st, 6th, and 3rd ranked back-to-back-to-back classes was a program changer. Unfortunately he couldn't coach.

BK got much better results with Weis' recruits (he was the beneficiary of Weis' classes) -- the problem is that he couldn't keep up with Weis' pace on the recruiting trail -- and as a result, BKs program has been in decay since.

Yes, not only wasn't he capable as a HC, but the real untold failing was hiring a really poor staff of assistants who couldn't coach and more importantly couldn't recruit. That's why Weis's classes were really good but not deep. He got more 5* guys here than anyone, but little else beside those 2-4 guys per year. What killed Weis as a HC was losing Assistant HC Cutcliff (QB coach) to a heart attack before the first season. Had he stayed, he really could have helped Weis learn how to be a better HC.

 

[BGI-CANADA]

Yes, not only wasn't he capable as a HC, but the real untold failing was hiring a really poor staff of assistants who couldn't coach and more importantly couldn't recruit. That's why Weis's classes were really good but not deep. He got more 5* guys here than anyone, but little else beside those 2-4 guys per year. What killed Weis as a HC was losing Assistant HC Cutcliff (QB coach) to a heart attack before the first season. Had he stayed, he really could have helped Weis learn how to be a better HC.

Agree completely.

One of the biggest problems with the Weis hire is the fact - as you pointed out - that Chrlie had no previous Head Coaching experience.

ND is no place to get 'on-the-job training' while learning how to be a head coach - you do that at the Bowling Greens etc. of the CFB world. The job at ND is way too demanding etc.

 

[South Bender]

yep, that's a debate = inflamed hemorrhoids vs a toothache

Sort of like you and chaseball.

 

[NDAFArly]

This was posted on another team's board.
Basically Clemson played in back to back title games & won a title with a class ranking average of about 18. They only had three 5 Star recruits in five years. They had ZERO in 12, 13, & 14 which was the teams that played in two titles.
From the other board:

just something to think about....clemson won the title last year and had bama on the ropes the year before...

this is their recruiting ranking over the last 5 years that made up those teams-

2012 -17th

2013-12th

2014 28th

2015- 15th

2016-16th

they signed one 5 star in 2015---mitch hyatt who was a starting ol and then 2 in 2016...wilkens played at dt but dont remember if he started and feaster was a back up.....you dont have to sign 3-4 5 stars a year to win....they didnt sign any in 12, 13 or 14 and that was the upper class/backbone of those 2 teams.

 

[stu4don]

This was posted on another team's board.
Basically Clemson played in back to back title games & won a title with a class ranking average of about 18. They only had three 5 Star recruits in five years. They had ZERO in 12, 13, & 14 which was the teams that played in two titles.
From the other board:

just something to think about....clemson won the title last year and had bama on the ropes the year before...

this is their recruiting ranking over the last 5 years that made up those teams-

2012 -17th

2013-12th

2014 28th

2015- 15th

2016-16th

they signed one 5 star in 2015---mitch hyatt who was a starting ol and then 2 in 2016...wilkens played at dt but dont remember if he started and feaster was a back up.....you dont have to sign 3-4 5 stars a year to win....they didnt sign any in 12, 13 or 14 and that was the upper class/backbone of those 2 teams.

Well said. And.... Washington had ZERO 5* recruits since 2012. And they made the final four last year

 

[South Bender]

Well said. And.... Washington had ZERO 5* recruits since 2012. And they made the final four last year

Like anything else - it's all relative. Simply having 5 stars on your roster is not indicative of success. Depends on who and what positions these guys play.

A 5 star OL and a 5 star safety don't seem to carry as much weight as a QB and a WR or LB.

Let's not act as though simply having a couple five stars on your roster is the path to the playoffs. Clemson and Washington are prime examples of the fallacy of this claim.

 

[chaseball]

It's 2017 and despite all the evidence to the contrary there are STILL people trying to make arguments diminishing the importance of recruiting-rankings?

And Clemson has more 5 star recruits in their last 3 classes than Brian Kelly's landed in his entire tenure.

 

[perseverare]

Well said. And.... Washington had ZERO 5* recruits since 2012. And they made the final four last year

Great coach.

If you don't recruit elite, you better have a great head coach!

Meh+meh=4-8

 

[bizzybecknd]

Chucks classes may have been ranked higher but they lacked balance.

I don't think anybody is diminishing the importance of recruiting but rather saying, ND doesn't have to recruit like BAMA and Oh St to make playoff runs, the constant comparisons are getting old. If ND can upgrade their talent on the D-Line, I think they have plenty everywhere else to make play off runs.

 

[chaseball]

ND doesn't have to recruit like BAMA and Oh St to make playoff runs, the constant comparisons are getting old. If ND can upgrade their talent on the D-Line, I think they have plenty everywhere else to make play off runs.

So if Ohio State recruits like Ohio State but misses the playoff (which they did in 2015) what does that say about NDs already minuscule playoff chances? The bottom line is that EVERY program needs to recruit like Alabama and Ohio State if they want results like Alabama and Ohio State.

ND should aspire to more than being a Cinderella program that lucks into the playoff once or twice a decade with a roster full of 2nd tier talent.

ND has the money, power, prestige, etc. to pull in the best athletes coming out of HS every year -- it requires a revolution in the way the program is currently being viewed and lead though -- and that goes beyond the head coach all the way up the university food chain.

 

[perseverare]

So if Ohio State recruits like Ohio State but misses the playoff (which they did in 2015) what does that say about NDs already minuscule playoff chances? The bottom line is that EVERY program needs to recruit like Alabama and Ohio State if they want results like Alabama and Ohio State.

ND should aspire to more than being a Cinderella program that lucks into the playoff once or twice a decade with a roster full of 2nd tier talent.

ND has the money, power, prestige, etc. to pull in the best athletes coming out of HS every year -- it requires major evolution in the way the program is currently being viewed and lead though -- and that goes beyond the head coach all the way up the university food chain.

------------------------------------------------

it is an insitutional values decision.

Les Miles would say, 'ND does not have the chest', to compete with the Top tier group.
Is that good or bad? Depends on your values.
JMO: if your going to bow out of competing for the top o' the football class; then go for being top academic institution.

 

[South Bender]

So if Ohio State recruits like Ohio State but misses the playoff (which they did in 2015) what does that say about NDs already minuscule playoff chances? The bottom line is that EVERY program needs to recruit like Alabama and Ohio State if they want results like Alabama and Ohio State.

ND should aspire to more than being a Cinderella program that lucks into the playoff once or twice a decade with a roster full of 2nd tier talent.

ND has the money, power, prestige, etc. to pull in the best athletes coming out of HS every year -- it requires a revolution in the way the program is currently being viewed and lead though -- and that goes beyond the head coach all the way up the university food chain.

By "revolution" you mean lowering entrance requirements, right?
Cuz that's the only way UND is getting the same athletes that Alabama gets.

Dare to be different, Chase. Choose to lead, not follow.

 

[NDAFArly]

Recruiting is important, but HS Star ratings is just part of it.

Nelson
McClinchey
St. Brown

Three guys that were NOT 5 Stars.

Three guys who are on preseason All American lists this year.

I will take guys who actually are 5 Star guys in the college game over guys who are in HS.

The "Star" rating is jacked up so much these days. Recruiting is important, getting the best players is important, but a guy who is a .980 & a 5 Star isn't so much better than a guy who is .979 & a 4 Star. They are the same other than the magical "5 Star."

Phil was a 5 Star who is now a 4 Star who might end up a 5 Star again. Does that make him any better/worse than what he actually is? And when we landed him Ohio State had him their #1 also. So we beat out OSU for a 5 Star QB, didn't we?

People act like we are outside the top 25 in recruiting? We have been between 7-13 over the last 5 years & look to finish 5-7 in 2018?
If we were 3-5 every year people would complain we arent 1?

We get really good players. A lot of 4 Star guys who end up All Americans & get drafted. Do I want the best? Yes. Am I going to constantly, constantly, constantly, complain about it? No.

 

[Telx1]

ND has recruited the kind of talent under Kelly necessary to win and compete as a perennial top ten program. The problem has been the uneven distribution of this talent. Seems we struggle to get sufficient talent and depth across the board. For example, two years ago we had a great recruiting class for defensive backs, and last year we struck out on corners. Seems this staff has a better focus on getting complimentary pieces and developing across the board depth, but it's a bit premature to declare success.
The other key is of course the development of this talent, and I feel we literally wasted the talent we did have on the defensive side of the ball for the past three years under Van Gorder. Damn near criminal neglect in terms of what these players had every right to expect coming to play football at ND. Here again, seems pretty obvious that Elko and his staff will develop our talent on that side of the ball.
The five star argument that Chase and a few others always harp on has some merit, and everyone of us will be excited over the next five star that commits to ND. On an individual case by case, five star versus four star can be debunked many times over; but as a general principle, the more five star talent, the greater your chances of success. Not essential as Chase would suggest, but clearly advantageous.

 

[Howard Hall 74]

Great coach.

If you don't recruit elite, you better have a great head coach!

Meh+meh=4-8

A great, impactful QB can make a lot of coaches look good. Which happened at Washington. Until ND can persuade a Heisman caliber QB to come, we will always be meh. I mean a QB that can impact every game, both the offense and the team, each and every week. Once we have him, we just need to figure out where to put coach 8 & 4.

 

[perseverare]

While I consider Kizer a better Pro prospect, Wimbush may, because of the current offensive philosophy of college offenses, be a more dynamic and better QB for ND's offense in '17.

But Kelly is not Pedersen. Less Kelly equals more effective offense and defense.

 

[OneillIrish]

then they would have gotten 5 stars; they either did or did not.

That's foolish.

You're saying all 5* talents receive a 5* Rating from Rivals?

Do you really want me to start debunking that?

 

[perseverare]

Are you really that dim witted, that you need special explanation?

go away.