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New coach discussion...

88ND said:
Can you name any team in the last 15 years that won the national title running a fast paced score quickly offense....Oregon like.

Those teams have gotten close but just can't close the show.

Gary Patterson is defense through and through. His teams played defense in a tenacious fashion.
What happened when he joined the trend of fast paced offense ? His defense fell into a pedestrian level giving up gobs of points at times.
Did he stop caring about defense or recruiting for it? Hardly! However what happened was his team's started scoring so quickly that his defense went right back out and gets tired.
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Whoa, easy! When did Oregon roll off my fingers? And to answer your question, I'd say Oregon could have won, but Auburn's defense was better. Auburn could have beat FSU, but defense again.

I never said Oregon. I merely stated you don't need the total Power O to win a NC. Defense is more important.
 
michigaNDer#1 said:
Whoa, easy! When did Oregon roll off my fingers? And to answer your question, I'd say Oregon could have won, but Auburn's defense was better. Auburn could have beat FSU, but defense again.

I never said Oregon. I merely stated you don't need the total Power O to win a NC. Defense is more important.
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I agree nine million percent defense defense defense. I'm not saying you implied Oregon ...that was me suggesting that teams by and large are being Oregon like in trying to score as fast as you can. It's true we wish to score. That's never bad.
But if I have my choice of a 1:45 second scoring drive as the norm or a 5:45 or longer scoring drive I want the longer.

Again not one team that tries to score under a minute every possession has ever won the title. Not once.

And still today the dominant teams that use conventional offensive power football and time of possession prevail.

If my offense takes longer to score....but scores none the less, is my defense more rested than a team scoring much quicker?
 
Dbldomr said:
Ours is anything but fast paced
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Exactly. We ranked right in the middle of the pack in terms of time of possession averaging right at 30 min per game. Ohio State was actually 11 spots lower than us averaging 29:15 min per game. No huddle offense does NOT mean fast paced offense. How often does our offense take the play clock down to 10 seconds or less (or even delay of game)? It's a lot. BK tried fast pace in the early days with Crist at QB. The results weren't very good. He slowed the pace down after that with Rees at QB and we really haven't gone back to up tempo since.
 
IMO, when looking for a HC for ND you need to look for the following;
- A guy that has a track record of success a positional coach / coordinator.
- A guy that's been part of winning programs.
- A guy that has college HC experience, preferable at more than one school.
- A guy that has had success as HC. That doesn't necessary mean winning 10 games every year but maybe a guy that took a school that was always losing and making them an 8-9 win team every year.

These are the must have's on a resume. The personal qualities, philosophies, etc need to be found out during the interview process.

I was a huge supporter of BK when they hired him because he met all of the above criteria. I think IF he does leave there are other guys out there that can be successful at ND that are not big name coaches. The reality is you almost never see a big name coach leave a big-time program to go to another program.
 
twalsh said:
The reason Chris Peterson went to Washington, after having said "no thanks" to equal or better jobs all over the country, is that he wants to stay in the Pacific northwest. He's not coming to ND.
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I'm going to give you a like because 666 is a way bad number.
 
Java
1. a guy like that will be long in the tooth
2. a guy like that will not resonate with recruits
3. a guy like that will be available due to dissatifaction or failure elsewhere
4. most guys like that are transient coaches and not the kind ND would consider

can't see the forest for the trees!

Best choice: Occam's razor Best Bet: ND will screw this up.

(PS: Kelly WILL be at ND in '16, so every returning asst. will be in the program 2 yrs or more)
 
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perseverare said:
Java
1. a guy like that will be long in the tooth
2. a guy like that will not resonate with recruits
3. a guy like that will be available due to dissatifaction or failure elsewhere
4. most guys like that are transient coaches and not the kind ND would consider

can't see the forest for the trees!

Best choice: Occam's razor Best Bet: ND will screw this up.

(PS: Kelly WILL be at ND in '16, so every returning asst. will be in the program 2 yrs or more)
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Perse, there are a lot of examples of guys like that that have been hired; BK was one of them, Butch Jones, McElwain, lots of examples. Just because a guy moves jobs doesn't make him "transient" or a failure at other jobs, he's simply getting better jobs much like Meyer did when he went from BG to Utah to Fl.

Did you consider Lou transient or a failure at other schools? ND (or any other big time program) is no place for a guy who has never been a HC. You hire somebody that has HC experience.

Another example of recent hires to keep an eye on is a guy like Babers who just got hired at Syracuse. Successful stints at E. Ill and Bowling Green. Again, if I had the resources of Jack I could find a LOT of coaches that meet the criteria.
 
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based on all the arguments, your arguments would have caused ND to pass on Urban Meyer.

ND needs to be bold sometimes; acting out of trepidation or fear is no way to function.

Ironically, the same fans who want to go the 'conservative' path will be those that lament missing on a young coach who goes on to great success. You cannot expect things to be different if you keep doing the same thing.
 
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perseverare said:
based on all the arguments, your arguments would have caused ND to pass on Urban Meyer.

ND needs to be bold sometimes; acting out of trepidation or fear is no way to function.

Ironically, the same fans who want to go the 'conservative' path will be those that lament missing on a young coach who goes on to great success. You cannot expect things to be different if you keep doing the same thing.
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Wrong, Meyer fit all of my requirements perfectly. He was a HC. He was successful at his previous positions. Not sure what criteria Meyer wouldn't fit.
 
previously, he had been an asst at ND (96-00) and left when a HC change was made.

ND will never attract a genius established HC; ND needs to discover one!

We are debating a moot point, Kelly is not attractive to NFL brass and he is not quitting the ND gig till at least through '16.
 
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perseverare said:
previously, he had been an asst at ND (96-00) and left when a HC change was made.
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Of course they didn't hire him. Do you think the Meyer that was the WR coach at ND in 2000 was the same guy that took the Florida job in 2005? You don't think Meyer learned a thing or two during his stints at BG and Utah?

If ND would have hired Meyer in 2001 he would have been a colossal failure, of that I have no doubts. Meyer needed every bit of the experience he got coaching at BG and Utah to succeed at UF. Being a HC is no different than any other job, experience matters, and it matters a lot.

Even Lou said he needed every bit of his experience to be the HC at ND.
 
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Java65 said:
Of course they didn't hire him. Do you think the Meyer that was the WR coach at ND in 2000 was the same guy that took the Florida job in 2005? You don't think Meyer learned a thing or two during his stints at BG and Utah?

If ND would have hired Meyer in 2001 he would have been a colossal failure, of that I have no doubts. Meyer needed every bit of the experience he got coaching at BG and Utah to succeed at UF. Being a HC is no different than any other job, experience matters, and it matters a lot.

Even Lou said he needed every bit of his experience to be the HC at ND.
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he was successful at both stops you mentioned; he was ready, just no one knew it!


java: you forfiet your right to bemoan the time when Sanford goes on to success at UGA.
 
perseverare said:
he was successful at both stops you mentioned; he was ready, just no one knew it!
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He was successful because coaching at BG is 100,000x easier than coaching at ND. It's like the difference between running your our own Accounting firm where you have one associate and being CEO of Deloitte. Yea, you are still and accountant but that's where the similarities end.
 
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17-6
22-2
on to UF for NC

good grief, you sound like a current generation ND fan: explain away any unpleasantry or failure!!
 
Java65 said:
He was successful because coaching at BG is 100,000x easier than coaching at ND. It's like the difference between running your our own Accounting firm where you have one associate and being CEO of Deloitte. Yea, you are still and accountant but that's where the similarities end.
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Java, have to side w/ Perse on this one - when your a great coach- your a great coach - Meyer would of won big at ND if he had been hired early in his career - It may of been a little bit of a slow start for him at ND - but he would of got it going big time. Nd had a history of being patient w/ their coaches back then, Meyer would been a great , great recruiter for ND like he is today and he is great teacher of the game and a great motivator. There is no question in my mind he would of won big at ND if hired early.

He won big time every where ever he has been.
 
perseverare said:
17-6
22-2
on to UF for NC

good grief, you sound like a current generation ND fan: explain away any unpleasantry or failure!!
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I'm not explaining away anything. ND took your route and hired a HC with no experience and he failed.
Then they hired a guy with no history of success in Ty. Fail again. Hire Weis with no college or HC experience. Fail.

Hire Kelly who meets ever single one of my criteria and he has been, by far, the most successful coach at ND. The fact is ND has tried 3 times hiring a nobody as you suggest and have failed every time.

Another example to look at is Saban. He wasn't nearly as successful at MSU as he is at Bama. I'll bet my house if you ask him all the experience he got at MSU, LSU and even Miami helped him become great.

Again, I have no doubt at all Meyer would have failed at ND with no experience and Lou agrees.
 
IrishBlessings said:
Java, have to side w/ Perse on this one - when your a great coach- your a great coach - Meyer would of won big at ND if he had been hired early in his career - It may of been a little bit of a slow start for him at ND - but he would of got it going big time. Nd had a history of being patient w/ their coaches back then, Meyer would been a great , great recruiter for ND like he is today and he is great teacher of the game and a great motivator. There is no question in my mind he would of won big at ND if hired early.

He won big time every where ever he has been.
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Actually, depending on your definition of 'winning big, he didn't. He went 8-3 & 9-3 at BG. While the 1000 rabid BG fans may find that wildly successful, as Kelly how the 10,000,000 ND fans feel about winning 8 or 9 games. Ask Kelly about the extra stuff he has to deal with at ND, re: Alum that he didn't before. Ask Kelly the difference in the stress between coaching at Cincy and ND. The required TV and Radio shows you have to do. Dealing with the press where every misstep is in the news, where at places like BG nobody cares.

Again, the difference between running a program like ND and Utah or BG is like the difference between running a "mom-and-pop" business and being the CEO of a multi-national corporation.
 
never going to give it up, huh? you latched onto your argument like a pit bull! Clearly ND's fortunes would be farvdifferent today had the administration had the courage to hire Meyer. But the rest is history....history to be repeated?
 
Java, you are completely correct about UM and the demands of the ND HC job, and the benefit of HC experience elsewhere. You however, cannot win this "argument" with Perse. Sanford will very likely leave after another year or so, and he will very likely be successful, and then Perse can remind everyone with another thousand posts that he knew better. Would love to see Sanford get this experience and return to ND as HC, but probably won't happen, unless he loves ND and sees it as his dream job, and appreciates the value of HC experience elsewhere a prerequisite..
 
perseverare said:
never going to give it up, huh? you latched onto your argument like a pit bull! Clearly ND's fortunes would be farvdifferent today had the administration had the courage to hire Meyer. But the rest is history....history to be repeated?
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Not when I'm right. Sorry, but it's a bit ridiculous to think that Meyer learned nothing at BG and Utah and was virtually the same coach when UF hired him as he was at ND.

By your logic experience in any profession wouldn't matter, if you are good you are good. Sorry, but that is very simplistic thinking.
 
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Telx1 said:
Java, you are completely correct about UM and the demands of the ND HC job, and the benefit of HC experience elsewhere. You however, cannot win this "argument" with Perse. Sanford will very likely leave after another year or so, and he will very likely be successful, and then Perse can remind everyone with another thousand posts that he knew better. Would love to see Sanford get this experience and return to ND as HC, but probably won't happen, unless he loves ND and sees it as his dream job, and appreciates the value of HC experience elsewhere a prerequisite..
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What kills me is that Lou has said this in the past. Forget what I say or Perse says and listen to a guy that actually did it. Lou has said that he needed every bit of experience he had to coach at ND.

Not sure if you listen to Power Hour over at ISD but Bill Reagan who was a Div II HC and a ND coach says that ND is not the place to get HC experience. Oh, well I suppose some people know more than the people who actually did it.
 
IrishBlessings said:
Java, have to side w/ Perse on this one - when your a great coach- your a great coach - Meyer would of won big at ND if he had been hired early in his career - It may of been a little bit of a slow start for him at ND - but he would of got it going big time. Nd had a history of being patient w/ their coaches back then, Meyer would been a great , great recruiter for ND like he is today and he is great teacher of the game and a great motivator. There is no question in my mind he would of won big at ND if hired early.

He won big time every where ever he has been.
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Coach Meyer developed into an excellent coach. Because is his stints @ BG & Utah. Little pressure, working the in's, and it's to see what work's.

Being a WR coach coach Meyer picked up on the spread very quickly, and it worked for him in those leagues, and there i think he figured out that offense with the type of defensive recruits he can't get at ND he took it to UF and he and Tebow made history there, but he had the advantage of great Defensive personnel to work with at UF.
Then he was losing control of players and it was time for him to go, and tOSU was the obvious choice. It's UF without the beach.

Coach Meyer is smart and he chose UF because it was the easy road. He's seen the writing on the wall with coach Willingham and I'm sure if he picked up the phone the ND job was his....maybe there were behind the scenes conversations, but he turn down ND so screw him.
 
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NDSMC78 said:
Fitzgerald, like his mentor, Gary Barnett, detests Notre Dame. It will never happen.
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That would be impressive he would not take the ND job, because of that reason in regards that limiting his chances, therefore making it all or nothing at NW
 
Dbldomr said:
Ours is anything but fast paced
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giphy.gif
 
Perse I am just trying to figure out what you are talking about. YOU said if Kelly goes any where this year (and I would assume you would hold the same for after next year) and Sanford doesn't get the job he is going to UGA. I am saying that doesn't make sense b/c...

(1) I believe Smart will get at least 3 years at UGA even if he is terrible and if he is gone I highly doubt Sanford would go to UGA b/c I don't see them going after another coordinator right after they went after one who just would have flamed out.

(2) He wont go as a OC/QB coach because they already have a coach that Kirby brought in that has since 2009 been the OC/QB every where he went. He got his big break being the OC/QB coach for Brees, he coaches QBs,
and in any other capacity is unlikely sense the entire staff on the offensive side of the ball is full.

What capacity are you believing he would go to UGA in? What makes you think this other then the rumor for a hot second that he was going to interview there that was found on UGA message boards and no where else? You are the one so certain Sanford is going to UGA, I am just the one asking for the basis of this.
 
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Careful Sal, you're entering territory where your genes and IQ and level of blind loyalty might be assailed.
 
Telx1 said:
Careful Sal, you're entering territory where your genes and IQ and level of blind loyalty might be assailed.
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Funny but also sadly true.......I agree with Sal though about where is there any proof of Sanford to UGA........
 
There was a rumor that Sanford was going to interview at UGA, it came right before/after Smart got hired. The rumor basically was that Smart wanted Sanford as OC. The two places that rumor was found were UGA boards and ND boards, it is unclear which board started the rumor and which boards were just "reporting" the rumor.
 
Did i miss something. Have not heard anything about coach leaving. The current admin. Got their guy 6 years ago. I do not trust the current regime doing better the next time around. They would hire a politician not a fb coach.
 
^^^^ correct! in lieu of an actual job openning, it was necessessary to create a useless argument/debate!
why? disharmony seems necessary.

No, there will be no job openning for the '16 season.
 
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