Natty Championship game Washington VS Michigan

[notredamerises23]

Washington way overrated!

They really are. They have a lot of mentally tough players to be able to win one possession game week after week after week, but if they played the University of Michigan 10 times I doubt they win more than two or three times—Michigan is just far superior. The only team this year that really could’ve beaten Michigan soundly is probably Georgia. I think Oregon matches up with them better than Washington does as well.

 

[NDinNJ]

Awesome

You cant develop Sam Hartman into a first round pick. I dont care how good your coach is. He's not as talented as Penix. No matter how much you develop him hes never a first rounder. And you know that too because you said as much before he got here. So dont go back on your word

And we dont have Odunze and McMillan ar WR. We just don't

I remember we wanted McMillan bad out of HS and we tried getting him but lost that recruitment.

Odunze may go top 5. You dont go top 5 just with development. You need elite traits. Multiple

Penix was. a 3 star coming out of HS and a 3 star as a transfer.

 

[clannad]

Now the NCAA needs to takeaway the games micheegan stole signals in, and their National Championship.

 

[ivan brunetti]

Now the NCAA needs to takeaway the games micheegan stole signals in, and their National Championship.

Good luck with that.

 

[Fightingirish595]

Coaching and development are important. Look at the recruiting rankings for both Michigan and UW, nothing special. Michigan on par with Notre Dame recruiting. Oh and I also looked up transfer portal rankings. Also nothing to write home about.

What DeBoer has done with Washington in 2 years is simply amazing. He's going to be a great coach.

Michigan recruiting rankings 2019-2023
2019 - #8
2020 - #10
2021 - #9
2022 - #13
2023 - #17

Michigan Transfer rankings
2022 - 18
2023 - 23

Washington recruiting rankings 2019-2023
2019 - 15
2020 - 16
2021 - 30
2022 - 95
2023 - 26

Washington Transfer rankings
2022 - 30
2023 - 17

Michigans coaching and development definitely had them playing above where’d you expect them to be.

Bama and Georgia were down and I think part of that was a and m hoarding 5 stars.

Certainly not taking anything away from Michigan. Point is hopefully expanded playoffs and other rules can keep talent a little more spread around.

Dont think a team with 1 or 2 5 stars would’ve been able to win a title in the last 5-10 years.

The biggest difference with Michigan this year vs 2 years ago is their athleticism defensively. Georgia absolutely killed them in space

 

[Golson5]

Penix was. a 3 star coming out of HS and a 3 star as a transfer.

Yeah who cares. Josh Allen was a 2 star.
Hartman isn't as talented as Penix. I know that. You know that. The NFL knows that

Stop trying to argue a point you already know

 

[banmate6]

I've got no issue with MI winning. Congratulations. As usual, I'm left contemplating how they can do it but ND cannot.

The funny thing is they won with throwback power football. Really strong defense, holding a high octane WA defense to 13 points. A boring but effective enough offense, relying on bruising running for the most part. It worked against Alabama and today.

It's funny because if any team should be able to do this, it is ND. That is, if a great defense could be recruited. Complementing the usual solid OL, decent runners, and, occasionally, serviceable QBs with an ok receiving corps.

MI got Harbaugh. This is what he did at Stanford and the NFL. Finally paying off at MI, getting him the players he needed. ND got Brian Kelly, more of a gimmick guy...don't get me wrong, he faced obstacles and brought ND back to respectability, but deviated from the power and smash stuff game.

Will Father Dowd allow what it takes to do what MI, a very good school, just did?

 

[Golson5]

Penix was. a 3 star coming out of HS and a 3 star as a transfer.

You can make that point with Riley Leonard. If developed he can be a first rd pick. Not Hartman

 

[NDinNJ]

Yeah who cares. Josh Allen was a 2 star.
Hartman isn't as talented as Penix. I know that. You know that. The NFL knows that

Stop trying to argue a point you already know

No shit, but Penix isn't as talented as Caleb Williams. JJ McCarthy isn't as talented as Penix, yet he won a championship. Your point is moot. Coaching matters!!

 

[Golson5]

No shit, but Penix isn't as talented as Caleb Williams. JJ McCarthy isn't as talented as Penix, yet he won a championship. Your point is moot. Coaching matters!!

Coaching absolutely matters. But you need talent too. I never said anything that it didn't. Nice try to slide on a bad point by you

And McCarthy may be more talented than Penix. That's definitely close. Hes more athletic, has a stronger arm and is about 3 years younger

If he leaves for the NFL as a junior he will be a first or second round pick

 

[tbonesays]

Washington overachieved. So it was quite a surprise they came out as dog shit tonight

 

[bizzybecknd]

I dont agree at all. There were plenty of plays he had a lot of time. His accuracy which is usually pin point was off. There was at least 5 throws with no pressure he just missed

Oh he definitely missed his fair share of throws but he threw it 51 times and by that math had time/missed on 10% or 5 of those.

Either way, that’s what pressure does, especially with 4. It rattles you, speeds you up and makes you uncomfortable even on the plays your OL holds up.

 

[NDinNJ]

You can make that point with Riley Leonard. If developed he can be a first rd pick. Not Hartman

I'm not sold on Leonard. Please let's not start any Riley Heisman posts, like the fools on this forum started with Hartman.

 

[banmate6]

You can make that point with Riley Leonard. If developed he can be a first rd pick. Not Hartman

I agree on Hartman. And on the general point that ND doesn't have the talent in depth in every facet of the game. I just think all the factors are important: players, coaches, facilities, easy academic path, and program management.

The principal factor however remains: it takes a culture of commitment to get all this. Great coaches come to such a culture. Or at least they come if given what they need to build such a culture.

Harbaugh is the right coach at the right time at the right place. MI man. He was determined to make this happen, asked for it, lobbied for it...and got it.

ND needs that special coach who gets what he asks for.

 

[Golson5]

I'm not sold on Leonard. Please let's not start any Riley Heisman posts.

I never started Hartman Heisman because he wasn't that talented. Nor will I start Leonard Heisman posts

But if you are talking about talent and development. He has all the talent in the world to be a first rd pick.

We havent had that talent since Kizer

 

[NDinNJ]

I agree on Hartman. And on the general point that ND doesn't have the talent in depth in every facet of the game. I just think all the factors are important: players, coaches, facilities, easy academic path, and program management.

The principal factor however remains: it takes a culture of commitment to get all this. Great coaches come to such a culture. Or at least they come if given what they need to build such a culture.

Harbaugh is the right coach at the right time at the right place. MI man. He was determined to make this happen, asked for it, lobbied for it...and got it.

ND needs that special coach who gets what he asks for.

I believe with Denbrock and Golden, Freeman has assistants in place to take ND to the next level. Hope I'm right.

 

[banmate6]

Washington overachieved. So it was quite a surprise they came out as dog shit tonight

My take is MI bludgeoned them into a slow but sure defeat. It is a bit deceptive, but conservative as MI is, the defense wears you out. They dished out a lot of punishment. WA had many hurt and winded players, including Penix.

MI managed to grind Alabama similarly, enough to win in OT. They played their identity to perfection...not getting snakebitten like against TCU or Texas vs WA last week.

 

[bizzybecknd]

You can make that point with Riley Leonard. If developed he can be a first rd pick. Not Hartman

Drew Brees. Does he fit your definition of talent?

 

[banmate6]

I believe with Denbrock and Golden, Freeman has assistants in place to take ND to the next level. Hope I'm right.

I hope so too. But still, and I don't want to sound negative...I don't think Freeman is Harbaugh either. He's learning. I agree he's got the OC and DC he wants.

Now let's hope he can get the players, especially elite defenders.

That MI defense is really good.

 

[notredamerises23]

Washington overachieved. So it was quite a surprise they came out as dog shit tonight

Michigan was just a better team all around. Michael Pennix Junior has been making some high difficulty throws to NFL receivers any missed them tonight but was also under pressure. Michigan’s offensive line dominated Washington’s defensive line completely, so one would think that this result will be replicable multiple times.

 

[Golson5]

Drew Brees. Does he fit your definition of talent?

Yes. He's the most accurate passer I've ever seen. And in college he was pretty athletic. He had a good arm but not great. But playing against Purdue with him was brutal. I've never seen a more accurate thrower in my life

I knew he would be good in the pros but didn't think he'd be HOF good

 

[banmate6]

Yes. He's the most accurate passer I've ever seen. And in college he was pretty athletic. He had a good arm but not great. But playing against Purdue with him was brutal. I've never seen a more accurate thrower in my life

I knew he would be good in the pros but didn't think he'd be HOF good

It's hard to predict college to NFL success with QBs.

I'm fine with ND getting and developing a good college QB.

It'd be nice to get a Joe Montana...or even a Tony Rice.

 

[NDinNJ]

I hope so too. But still, and I don't want to sound negative...I don't think Freeman is Harbaugh either. He's learning. I agree he's got the OC and DC he wants.

Now let's hope he can get the players, especially elite defenders.

That MI defense is really good.

Agree Freeman is not Harbaugh, but Freeman at this moment has better assistants. ND's D is really good as well.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Yes. He's the most accurate passer I've ever seen. And in college he was pretty athletic. He had a good arm but not great. But playing against Purdue with him was brutal. I've never seen a more accurate thrower in my life

I knew he would be good in the pros but didn't think he'd be HOF good

Accuracy can be taught, correct?

 

[banmate6]

Agree Freeman is not Harbaugh, but Freeman at this moment has better assistants. ND's D is really good as well.

It took Harbaugh 9 seasons. It shows how tough it is even for a proven coach given license to win.

Fingers crossed for ND for next season.

Again, I hope this MI win convinces the powers at ND to do what it takes...as MI remains a GREAT academic school with no compromise to this brand with football success.

 

[bizzybecknd]

This one hurts because the belief has always been ND doesn’t have the horses aka recruit well enough. UM just won with “less talent” when star gazing. I’ve always said ND will need the perfect storm of a stud QB, a Manti-esque guy on D, senior leadership and the right things to play out around the country. UM caught that storm.

 

[deadmanramsey]

This one hurts because the belief has always been ND doesn’t have the horses aka recruit well enough. UM just won with “less talent” when star gazing. I’ve always said ND will need the perfect storm of a stud QB, a Manti-esque guy on D, senior leadership and the right things to play out around the country. UM caught that storm.

Well, plus there's the whole "not playing by the rules" thing which kinda helps. It's troubling to think of what other scummy cheating methods they have employed we are unaware of. When a criminal gets caught: it's a safe bet they have committed a whole slew of other crimes.

 

[Golson5]

Accuracy can be taught, correct?

You can improve accuracy but it's like 3 point shooting in basketball. Some guys have it and some don't

If you dont have it, you can work on it to improve it but you won't be Drew Brees

 

[Golson5]

This one hurts because the belief has always been ND doesn’t have the horses aka recruit well enough. UM just won with “less talent” when star gazing. I’ve always said ND will need the perfect storm of a stud QB, a Manti-esque guy on D, senior leadership and the right things to play out around the country. UM caught that storm.

And a season where there's no dominant teams

 

[banmate6]

Well, plus there's the whole "not playing by the rules" thing which kinda helps. It's troubling to think of what other scummy cheating methods they have employed we are unaware of. When a criminal gets caught: it's a safe bet they have committed a whole slew of other crimes.

I'm not convinced MI did anything egregiously wrong. They just happened to get caught. Much like USC for Reggie Bush getting some payouts...whereas the SEC routinely did this, like that $250k payout that got dismissed.

Cheating also doesn't occur when you eliminate standards. Like easy degrees anybody can pass, requiring no cheating. The NCAA is a dirty as they come, so no, I won't hang MI nor USC for what they did...as others seem to do far worse and get away with it.

I mean, the CFP committee just shoehorned Alabama into this over FSU. So coaches at practices or some play stealing by some coaches is much worse?

 

[bizzybecknd]

I'm not convinced MI did anything egregiously wrong. They just happened to get caught. Much like USC for Reggie Bush getting some payouts...whereas the SEC routinely did this, like that $250k payout that got dismissed.

Cheating also doesn't occur when you eliminate standards. Like easy degrees anybody can pass, requiring no cheating. The NCAA is a dirty as they come, so no, I won't hang MI nor USC for what they did...as others seem to do far worse and get away with it.

I mean, the CFP committee just shoehorned Alabama into this over FSU. So coaches at practices or some play stealing by some coaches is much worse?

“Cheating doesn’t occur when you eliminate standards” haha raise the bar brother!

 

[tbonesays]

I'm not convinced MI did anything egregiously wrong. They just happened to get caught. Much like USC for Reggie Bush getting some payouts...whereas the SEC routinely did this, like that $250k payout that got dismissed.

Cheating also doesn't occur when you eliminate standards. Like easy degrees anybody can pass, requiring no cheating. The NCAA is a dirty as they come, so no, I won't hang MI nor USC for what they did...as others seem to do far worse and get away with it.

I mean, the CFP committee just shoehorned Alabama into this over FSU. So coaches at practices or some play stealing by some coaches is much worse?

The systemic cheating which requires support from a large part of the Michigan institution showed the institutional commitment to winning at a high level. It is not even possible to imagine that kind of commitment from today's ND.

 

[11NCs]

I don’t like UM or UW but am glad a B1G team and a soon-to-be B1G team beat an SEC team and a soon-to-be SEC team in the play-offs.

 

[banmate6]

The systemic cheating which requires support from a large part of the Michigan institution showed the institutional commitment to winning at a high level. It is not even possible to imagine that kind of commitment from today's ND.

Nobody is saying ND should nor need to cheat. And it's a stretch I think to call what MI did systematic cheating with institutional support.

MI won because of the things I discussed in my previous posts: coaching, program management, facilities, sports science, recruiting, and, I bet, a remedial degree path for academically challenged athletes.

 

[chaseball]

This one hurts because the belief has always been ND doesn’t have the horses aka recruit well enough. UM just won with “less talent” when star gazing. I’ve always said ND will need the perfect storm of a stud QB, a Manti-esque guy on D, senior leadership and the right things to play out around the country. UM caught that storm.

It definitely takes a bit of a perfect storm and a lot of luck no matter how good your team is in order to win a national title. BUT Michigan won this national title because 10 years ago they gave Harbaugh a record breaking contract (at the time) and pulled him away from the the NFL.

Who is NDs Harbaugh out there, and how much is ND willing to outspend the market to retain him?

 

[NDblitz]

I've got no issue with MI winning. Congratulations. As usual, I'm left contemplating how they can do it but ND cannot.

The funny thing is they won with throwback power football. Really strong defense, holding a high octane WA defense to 13 points. A boring but effective enough offense, relying on bruising running for the most part. It worked against Alabama and today.

It's funny because if any team should be able to do this, it is ND. That is, if a great defense could be recruited. Complementing the usual solid OL, decent runners, and, occasionally, serviceable QBs with an ok receiving corps.

MI got Harbaugh. This is what he did at Stanford and the NFL. Finally paying off at MI, getting him the players he needed. ND got Brian Kelly, more of a gimmick guy...don't get me wrong, he faced obstacles and brought ND back to respectability, but deviated from the power and smash stuff game.

Will Father Dowd allow what it takes to do what MI, a very good school, just did?

How many years did it take him? 14?

 

[deadirishpoet]

Penix is a little off. Refs missed a hold. Penalty hurt

Refs missed alot of holding penalties

 

[Chitown11]

Coaching absolutely matters. But you need talent too. I never said anything that it didn't. Nice try to slide on a bad point by you

And McCarthy may be more talented than Penix. That's definitely close. Hes more athletic, has a stronger arm and is about 3 years younger

If he leaves for the NFL as a junior he will be a first or second round pick

Thanks Mel

 

[HarlemIrish]

This one hurts because the belief has always been ND doesn’t have the horses aka recruit well enough. UM just won with “less talent” when star gazing. I’ve always said ND will need the perfect storm of a stud QB, a Manti-esque guy on D, senior leadership and the right things to play out around the country. UM caught that storm.

Great post. The rear view mirror always being 20/20. Who wouldn't sign up today to see Georgia vs Michigan instead of Washington. UM caught a big break from the committee

 

[Golson5]

It definitely takes a bit of a perfect storm and a lot of luck no matter how good your team is in order to win a national title. BUT Michigan won this national title because 10 years ago they gave Harbaugh a record breaking contract (at the time) and pulled him away from the the NFL.

Who is NDs Harbaugh out there, and how much is ND willing to outspend the market to retain him?

Marcus Freeman