How good, really, is Sam Hartman?

[HDK]

When ND brought in Hartman last winter, I think most fans agreed we needed help at QB, except a few people who thought some magical switch was going to turn on for Buchner.

I remember our defense throwing Hartman around like a rag doll when he started for Wake as a freshman in 2018 in the same game Book was officially made our starter. But prior to his arrival at ND, my knowledge of Hartman's abilities was limited to watching halftime highlights. I figured he would be a competent fill-in at best.

Early this season, I was duly impressed by his play against weaker competition, but have felt that it really tailed off as the opposition got better, although he deserves major props for a really gutsy performance against Duke.

There has been a lot of complaining about Parker's play calling and other aspects of the offense. Personally, I think the play calling has improved and the line seems to be recovering from its midseason funk, but I've gone from having complete faith in Hartman to the acceptance that he is what I originally thought he would be: a competent placeholder.

Thoughts?

 

[scubastevefl]

He’s a good college qb, exactly what he was at WF. But against top competition he’s average. They needed Hartman to win the game against Ohio State, while he wasn’t the reason they lost, he didn’t win the game for the Irish either.

 

[mrwigglesby21]

If I had the choice to start Book or Hartman next week at Clemson, I'd start Hartman. He's the best QB we've had since Clausen. Maybe Kizer could be mentioned from a pure talent (arm/legs) standpoint. He can make most all the throws, hangs in the pocket, has toughness, mobility and a slightly above average arm, strength-wise, and excellent/elite accuracy. I can't recall too many balls not thrown in the catch radius. Flores has aided two of his recent interceptions, tho Hartman maybe shouldn't have thrown the ball either.

 

[sjb75]

When ND brought in Hartman last winter, I think most fans agreed we needed help at QB, except a few people who thought some magical switch was going to turn on for Buchner.

I remember our defense throwing Hartman around like a rag doll when he started for Wake as a freshman in 2018 in the same game Book was officially made our starter. But prior to his arrival at ND, my knowledge of Hartman's abilities was limited to watching halftime highlights. I figured he would be a competent fill-in at best.

Early this season, I was duly impressed by his play against weaker competition, but have felt that it really tailed off as the opposition got better, although he deserves major props for a really gutsy performance against Duke.

There has been a lot of complaining about Parker's play calling and other aspects of the offense. Personally, I think the play calling has improved and the line seems to be recovering from its midseason funk, but I've gone from having complete faith in Hartman to the acceptance that he is what I originally thought he would be: a competent placeholder.

Thoughts?

Compared to the Pitt QB, he's Andrew Luck.

 

[Golson5]

He came in as a late rd draft pick and that's what he is

He's not elite. He's not a scrub

He's a good college QB who hopefully can stick in the NFL as a quality backup

 

[tkirish]

I guess it depends on what your expectations were. I didn’t really have any. I always looked at him as a pretty good QB who had a lot of experience. I said this before. If he was better than very good, he would have opted for the NFL. With that said, I think he added stability and leadership as well as experience. He has done a good job overall. The other part is his receivers. They haven’t exactly been scaring defenses. That is part of the offensive woes too.

 

[burmafrd1943]

I guess it depends on what your expectations were. I didn’t really have any. I always looked at him as a pretty good QB who had a lot of fun experience. I said this before. If he was better than very good, he would have opted for the NFL. With that said, I think he added stability and leadership as well as an experience. He has done a good job overall. The other part is his receivers. They haven’t exactly been scaring defenses. That is part of the offensive woes too.

He forced some passes and two of them got picked. One was tipped but it did go into triple coverage.
NOW if he had top WRs you can try and force it but ours are not the best and are also part of the problem
Play calling is suspect as well at times

 

[Irish_inPSU]

I think he’s above average, but to great. My expectations when he got here was that he’d be a leader and take over a game when he needed to. He’s not proven he’s able to do that. The first handful of games he looked the part, but something happened to him. I don’t know why, but he looks nervous and not in command any longer. I believe some of it is the oline. It seems like our opponents figured out how to put a lot of pressure on him. But then our online plays lights out in other games… lol.

 

[ftnfan62]

When ND brought in Hartman last winter, I think most fans agreed we needed help at QB, except a few people who thought some magical switch was going to turn on for Buchner.

I remember our defense throwing Hartman around like a rag doll when he started for Wake as a freshman in 2018 in the same game Book was officially made our starter. But prior to his arrival at ND, my knowledge of Hartman's abilities was limited to watching halftime highlights. I figured he would be a competent fill-in at best.

Early this season, I was duly impressed by his play against weaker competition, but have felt that it really tailed off as the opposition got better, although he deserves major props for a really gutsy performance against Duke.

There has been a lot of complaining about Parker's play calling and other aspects of the offense. Personally, I think the play calling has improved and the line seems to be recovering from its midseason funk, but I've gone from having complete faith in Hartman to the acceptance that he is what I originally thought he would be: a competent placeholder.

Thoughts?

He is outstanding. When he has time and people open.

He didn’t let the OSU DE jump the screen or that’s a walk off win. He didn’t have Tyree drop two well placed balls or drop the ball in the backfield. He didn’t tell Flores to grab some popcorn and watch the defenders take HIS ball. Just watch Pennick or Williams. Pennick had several passes that WR made huge adjustments on and he also had a few where the WR didn’t make a play.

If he has Claypool or Actually anyone he would find them. His best receivers are medium speed, slightly hurt freshmen.

When people are open, short or deep he hits them and when you needed him on 4th and 16 he made it. I don’t think he could do anything much more. But that’s just my Opinion and watching the other top QB’s they have about the same games just better WR talent.

How many times last year did we grab our heads on long balls 5 yards over players heads. Every time he goes deep your just waiting for the camera to pan and your saying “perfect ball Sam”

 

[Golson5]

He is outstanding. When he has time and people open.

He didn’t let the OSU DE jump the screen or that’s a walk off win. He didn’t have Tyree drop two well placed balls or drop the ball in the backfield. He didn’t tell Flores to grab some popcorn and watch the defenders take HIS ball. Just watch Pennick or Williams. Pennick had several passes that WR made huge adjustments on and he also had a few where the WR didn’t make a play.

If he has Claypool or Actually anyone he would find them. His best receivers are medium speed, slightly hurt freshmen.

When people are open, short or deep he hits them and when you needed him on 4th and 16 he made it. I don’t think he could do anything much more. But that’s just my Opinion and watching the other top QB’s they have about the same games just better WR talent.

How many times last year did we grab our heads on long balls 5 yards over players heads. Every time he goes deep your just waiting for the camera to pan and your saying “perfect ball Sam”

Lol

 

[ftnfan62]

Lets just go to stats. Takes some emotion out.

Book 2020 - 12 games, 2830 yards, 64.6% compl, 8.0 avg per compl, 3 pics, 15 TD's, 144.3 rating
Hartman 2023 - 8 games, 2126 yards, 65.4% compl, 9.3 avg per compl, 5 pics, 18 TD's, 165.3 rating

With 4 games to go, and I dont remember book ever leaving the field for the 4th quarter, let alone 3-4 times like Hartman will, he should destroy one of the all-time statistics leaders at ND year for year comparison at QB.

All this with a tougher schedule, fist time OC and a new HC. Book also had Lenzy, Davis, Skowroneck, and Kevin Austin. Just a tiny bit more talent.

When you look at the stats, looks to be an outstanding year so far.

 

[Golson5]

Lets just go to stats. Takes some emotion out.

Book 2020 - 12 games, 2830 yards, 64.6% compl, 8.0 avg per compl, 3 pics, 15 TD's, 144.3 rating
Hartman 2023 - 8 games, 2126 yards, 65.4% compl, 9.3 avg per compl, 5 pics, 18 TD's, 165.3 rating

With 4 games to go, and I dont remember book ever leaving the field for the 4th quarter, let alone 3-4 times like Hartman will, he should destroy one of the all-time statistics leaders at ND year for year comparison at QB.

All this with a tougher schedule, fist time OC and a new HC. Book also had Lenzy, Davis, Skowroneck, and Kevin Austin. Just a tiny bit more talent.

When you look at the stats, looks to be an outstanding year so far.

Why didn't you use Ian Books 2019 season?

 

[ftnfan62]

Just trying to compare 2 QB's in their senior years. If you want to do Book's best to Sam's best, it's still not close in yardage, TD's, or QBR. % Compl is close.

This was to compare "what kind of year is he having". The answer is, he should finish with one of the best years on record at ND with a tough schedule and no threats.

 

[Golson5]

Just trying to compare 2 QB's in their senior years. If you want to do Book's best to Sam's best, it's still not close in yardage, TD's, or QBR. % Compl is close.

This was to compare "what kind of year is he having". The answer is, he should finish with one of the best years on record at ND with a tough schedule and no threats.

Books 19 season is better than this year's Hartmans

Sam is having a similar year to Jack Coans year here

 

[d1042]

He is a good QB. He is a good leader. His talents require talents around him, he is no Cam Newton.

 

[ftnfan62]

He is not CAM, or Vince Young, he does not have a run game although it did beat Duke. I just am not sure how you can say he is not having an outstanding year. Lets swap Harrison Jr and Njigba for Tyree and Greathouse. You think OSU beats us on that last drive with Tyree and not Njigba? I dont think so.

You think those two drop those passes against Louisville? You think Harrison watches that first pass into the hands of the CB for Louisville?

If you can name all the wide-open people he missed in those two losses that cost us the game, say them. He has had a great year with the lack of weapons, a new OC, a tough schedule and a very heavy run game.

 

[ftnfan62]

Books 19 season is better than this year's Hartmans

Sam is having a similar year to Jack Coans year here

And almost all of his other season were better than Book's 19. What we do know is that Hartman will finish with stats Book could only dream of if we just want career vs career.

 

[Golson5]

And almost all of his other season were better than Book's 19. What we do know is that Hartman will finish with stats Book could only dream of if we just want career vs career.

I'm not going to compare what he did at WF to what Book did at ND. Apples and orange

I'm comparing them at ND. what he did at WF is irrelevant to me as a ND fan

Books 19 season AT NOTRE DAME is better than Sams AT NOTRE DAME

I would compare Sam to Coans year AT NOTRE DAME

 

[HDK]

I'm not going to compare what he did at WF to what Book did at ND. Apples and orange

I'm comparing them at ND. what he did at WF is irrelevant to me as a ND fan

Books 19 season AT NOTRE DAME is better than Sams AT NOTRE DAME

I would compare Sam to Coans year AT NOTRE DAME

And I would say Coan was perfectly serviceable, given the fact that he was as mobile as a granite statute and played behind a young and patched up line.

Both Chan and Hartman were better throwing the deep ball, but Book could run circles around them. Different styles.

My whole reason for this post is it has seemed to me that Hartman's accuracy and judgement have both been off a bit in recent games.

As someone else said, we needed him to lead us to victory against OSU. While he was okay, he was hardly the star. I've already cited the gutsy performance against Duke, but Louisville was abysmal. And I felt that he wasn't that sharp against USC, either. He made a couple of bad decisions and wasn't as accurate as I would have hoped. I was surprised by his first quarter performance yesterday. Lots of forced throws. Once again, the game turned because the defense and special teams did well.

 

[BaldyNd]

Books 19 season is better than this year's Hartmans

Sam is having a similar year to Jack Coans year here

Imagine if Hartman had Claypool though

 

[ftnfan62]

He does not have the cast Around him Book had in 19 or Coan had.

Put any QB there is in CFB today. Does Pennick beat OSU? He survived ASU. How about Williams? Nope. Bo? Lost to Wash.

I just don’t see anyone doing better with a banged up, 4.6 set of receivers that have never played.

Who thinks we give up a 3rd and 18 throw with 7 seconds left. Bat that down. He did put it right in Tyree’s hand at Louisville. How does that game change if its 27-33? Do we go on 4th and 11?

I honestly don’t know what or who else would have them 8-0.

Maybe if we played Mich or UGA’s schedule he would be the Heisman leader now. But this is one of the toughest schedule ND has played in some time.

 

[Golson5]

He does not have the cast Around him Book had in 19 or Coan had.

Put any QB there is in CFB today. Does Pennick beat OSU? He survived ASU. How about Williams? Nope. Bo? Lost to Wash.

I just don’t see anyone doing better with a banged up, 4.6 set of receivers that have never played.

Who thinks we give up a 3rd and 18 throw with 7 seconds left. Bat that down. He did put it right in Tyree’s hand at Louisville. How does that game change if its 27-33? Do we go on 4th and 11?

I honestly don’t know what or who else would have them 8-0.

Maybe if we played Mich or UGA’s schedule he would be the Heisman leader now. But this is one of the toughest schedule ND has played in some time.

Yes. Those guys are better QBs.

We lost to OSU by 3 points. Why wouldn't a better player make up that small difference?

Our OL is much better than what Coan had in 21

 

[DieHard_Irish]

No QB would "light it up" with this receiver room. Sam Hartman has played as well as could be expected

 

[Golson5]

No QB would "light it up" with this receiver room. Sam Hartman has played as well as could be expected

He has played well.

Better QBs could have played better. As they are better

 

[ftnfan62]

Yes. Those guys are better QBs.

We lost to OSU by 3 points. Why wouldn't a better player make up that small difference?

Our OL is much better than what Coan had in 21

What I remember about coan is Buch and Pyne needing to come in and win 3 games when he was pulled. I don’t remember us doing that with Hartman yet.

 

[Golson5]

What I remember about coan is Buch and Pyne needing to come in and win 3 games when he was pulled. I don’t remember us doing that with Hartman yet.

Right... and we have 2 losses.

The 21 team only had 1 loss during the regular season

 

[ftnfan62]

They played 1 ranked team in the end, Cinci and lost not including the bowl that they lost.

Pretty sure Sam is 12-0 with that schedule.

Honestly you think Coan is 8-0 with this team? Be honest.

I’m betting we have 4 losses with Coan as a starter on this exact team.

 

[DieHard_Irish]

They played 1 ranked team in the end, Cinci and lost not including the bowl that they lost.

Pretty sure Sam is 12-0 with that schedule.

Honestly you think Coan is 8-0 with this team? Be honest.

I’m betting we have 4 losses with Coan as a starter on this exact team.

I agree, and that's not a knock of Coan. Each year, each team is different. This year needed Sam Hartman based solely on the receiver room; which I think will be good, but they are not good now

 

[Fightingirish595]

Anyone who watched the Ohio state game knows Hartman played a great game.

He picked them apart.

When the tough got going after the second one he led 2 straight touchdown drives to take the lead.

It’s a game we should’ve won. Louisville was a fluke.

 

[Golson5]

They played 1 ranked team in the end, Cinci and lost not including the bowl that they lost.

Pretty sure Sam is 12-0 with that schedule.

Honestly you think Coan is 8-0 with this team? Be honest.

I’m betting we have 4 losses with Coan as a starter on this exact team.

I think our record would be the same honestly.

4 losses lol, come on

 

[Golson5]

Anyone who watched the Ohio state game knows Hartman played a great game.

He picked them apart.

When the tough got going after the second one he led 2 straight touchdown drives to take the lead.

It’s a game we should’ve won. Louisville was a fluke.

He played okay against OSU, not great

 

[sjb75]

Anyone who watched the Ohio state game knows Hartman played a great game.

He picked them apart.

When the tough got going after the second one he led 2 straight touchdown drives to take the lead.

It’s a game we should’ve won. Louisville was a fluke.

When you have the football with 3:30 left and you do not put the game away against Ohio St, and get beat, don't say Sam Hartman played "great..." against Ohio St.

Hartman was good, not great.

 

[HDK]

What I remember about coan is Buch and Pyne needing to come in and win 3 games when he was pulled. I don’t remember us doing that with Hartman yet.

My memory is not that great, but I don't think that statement is accurate. What three games are you referring to? Pyne came in against Wisconsin, but Coan was injured in that game. Buchner came in a couple of games and gave us a boost, but it was Coan, who won the Toledo game (I know, I know, it was Toledo) after getting his finger dislocated, and it was also Coan, who came in after Buchner fell apart against Virginia Tech and threw a pic-6, to lead us to a win. Buchner threw a pic-6 against Cincinnati as well.

 

[DieHard_Irish]

When you have the football with 3:30 left and you do not put the game away against Ohio St, and get beat, don't say Sam Hartman played "great..." against Ohio St.

Hartman was good, not great.

So based on that logic, if DJ catches the INT thrown right at him, we win and Hartman played great?

 

[bizzybecknd]

Best QB since Clausen. Run game has been awful at times and wish they’d open up the playbook and let him throw vertically more often. I was against the transfer as I still prefer developing the guys in the locker room but Hartman has made me rethink the approach, has been great for ND on and off the field - fully embracing the place.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Why didn't you use Ian Books 2019 season?

Pretty fair comparison to compare senior years at ND, if you’re going to allow for a bigger sample size for Book, should also expect the same for Hartman.

 

[Golson5]

Pretty fair comparison to compare senior years at ND, if you’re going to allow for a bigger sample size for Book, should also expect the same for Hartman.

He's in his 6th year. He should be held to a higher standard

 

[Fightingirish595]

When you have the football with 3:30 left and you do not put the game away against Ohio St, and get beat, don't say Sam Hartman played "great..." against Ohio St.

Hartman was good, not great.

They called the longest developing play in the history of football and didn’t block it up. Not sams fault

 

[Fightingirish595]

He played okay against OSU, not great

Disagree. We moved the ball very well. He only got to throw it 25 times because of the flow of the game.

Maybe you hold the two 4th and 1s against him more than I do.

Hartman was finding open receivers all game.

 

[4-4-3]

Lets just go to stats. Takes some emotion out.

Book 2020 - 12 games, 2830 yards, 64.6% compl, 8.0 avg per compl, 3 pics, 15 TD's, 144.3 rating
Hartman 2023 - 8 games, 2126 yards, 65.4% compl, 9.3 avg per compl, 5 pics, 18 TD's, 165.3 rating

With 4 games to go, and I dont remember book ever leaving the field for the 4th quarter, let alone 3-4 times like Hartman will, he should destroy one of the all-time statistics leaders at ND year for year comparison at QB.

All this with a tougher schedule, fist time OC and a new HC. Book also had Lenzy, Davis, Skowroneck, and Kevin Austin. Just a tiny bit more talent.

When you look at the stats, looks to be an outstanding year so far.

For me, the more interesting comparison is with Coan.

Coan to many was the PLACEHOLDER AS MIXED BAG. And while it’s true he got pulled a couple of times, he also PUT THE TEAM ON HIS BACK, LEADING IT TO THREE LATE COMEBACK WINS during an 11-2 season.

The question for me is – will Hartman’s CONSISTENCY be remembered for long if at some point he CAN’T TAKE OVER A GAME and DELIVER A W with the outcome CLEARLY IN DOUBT?

Maybe we’ll get to find out.

As for PURE PRODUCTIVITY, Coan exceeded Book in almost all categories:

13 games

386 attempts

253 completions

65.5% completions

8.2 yards per attempt

25 TD completions

7 interceptions

151.8 QB rating

As it now stands, Hartman’s productivity is likely to exceed Coan’s.

Key question, though – will he also lead ND to an 11-2 record?