LEONARD and the HARTMAN EXPERIMENT

[65ND]

Leonard seems to be the leader in the clubhouse going into Spring ball. I remember a similar vibe this time last year. Hartman was the QB we'd dreamed of for so long. Yet at season's end you look at his production – and damn – he's the same guy he was at Wake! 9 and 4 there - 9 and 4 here.

Back to Riley and his history.

• played in 26 games - 61.7% complete - avg 11,6 yards – 24 TD – 10 INT
  
• 226 runs for 1224 yards – 5.4 yards avg – 19 TD
  
• that's 43 TDs in 26 games or 1,65 a game
  
• played average competition – 5 top 25 teams – 1 win and 4 lost
  
• beat CLEMSON at home first game in 2023 but lost to FSU & ND
  
• lost to PITT in '21 & '22 – that's it for top 25 teams
  
  
  My conclusion. You have to give Angeli an honest evaluation going forward, My first worry is the TEXAS A&M game, Elko, an excellent defensive mind. coached Leonard for his last 2 seasons. Riley's first BIG road game atmosphere against his former coach? Not the match up I want to see. Suggestion. Think Tim Tebow and use Leonard as a package player. Allow Angeli to make the most of our passing game. Oh! And BTW, Never forget the Hartman experiment.

 

[Golson5]

Leonard seems to be the leader in the clubhouse going into Spring ball. I remember a similar vibe this time last year. Hartman was the QB we'd dreamed of for so long. Yet at season's end you look at his production – and damn – he's the same guy he was at Wake! 9 and 4 there - 9 and 4 here.

Back to Riley and his history.

• played in 26 games - 61.7% complete - avg 11,6 yards – 24 TD – 10 INT
  
• 226 runs for 1224 yards – 5.4 yards avg – 19 TD
  
• that's 43 TDs in 26 games or 1,65 a game
  
• played average competition – 5 top 25 teams – 1 win and 4 lost
  
• beat CLEMSON at home first game in 2023 but lost to FSU & ND
  
• lost to PITT in '21 & '22 – that's it for top 25 teams
  
  
  My conclusion. You have to give Angeli an honest evaluation going forward, My first worry is the TEXAS A&M game, Elko, an excellent defensive mind. coached Leonard for his last 2 seasons. Riley's first BIG road game atmosphere against his former coach? Not the match up I want to see. Suggestion. Think Tim Tebow and use Leonard as a package player. Allow Angeli to make the most of our passing game. Oh! And BTW, Never forget the Hartman experiment.

Riley is much more talented than Hartman and Angeli. It won't be a real competition because there is none

Riley will be the starting QB at Tx AM unless he is injured

 

[Shakin' Down the Thunder]

We know he'll make big plays. The question is will he make the ordinary plays and execute consistently? His stats suggest he'll struggle with that, but for all we know he hasn't peaked yet.

 

[NDSMC78]

Leonard seems to be the leader in the clubhouse going into Spring ball. I remember a similar vibe this time last year. Hartman was the QB we'd dreamed of for so long. Yet at season's end you look at his production – and damn – he's the same guy he was at Wake! 9 and 4 there - 9 and 4 here.

Back to Riley and his history.

• played in 26 games - 61.7% complete - avg 11,6 yards – 24 TD – 10 INT
  
• 226 runs for 1224 yards – 5.4 yards avg – 19 TD
  
• that's 43 TDs in 26 games or 1,65 a game
  
• played average competition – 5 top 25 teams – 1 win and 4 lost
  
• beat CLEMSON at home first game in 2023 but lost to FSU & ND
  
• lost to PITT in '21 & '22 – that's it for top 25 teams
  
  
  My conclusion. You have to give Angeli an honest evaluation going forward, My first worry is the TEXAS A&M game, Elko, an excellent defensive mind. coached Leonard for his last 2 seasons. Riley's first BIG road game atmosphere against his former coach? Not the match up I want to see. Suggestion. Think Tim Tebow and use Leonard as a package player. Allow Angeli to make the most of our passing game. Oh! And BTW, Never forget the Hartman experiment.

ND was 10-3 last year, not 9-4.

 

[Telx1]

Riley stats are skewed from playing on one leg after the ND game last year. He’s an exceptional athlete, and many thought a first round NFL draft choice before his injury. Angeli absolutely earned the right to an honest competition. But, Spring practice doesn’t really credit one of Riley’s greatest strengths, and that is to make plays with his legs. I fully expect Riley to win the starting job, but I hope Gino is successful in improving his pocket presence and going through his progressions, before deciding to take off. And, I hope Gino can improve his touch as he tends to throw bullets that are difficult to catch on quick Slants, etc….

 

[tbonesays]

ND was 10-3 last year, not 9-4.

OP compared Leonard to Hartman, who was not around for win #10. That must have been why he used ALL CAPS.

We really need Leonard's adjusted yards per play to have an idea of how well he plays. My memory of his opener against Clemson in 2023 was that the defense and special teams kept pinning the Tigers back deep.

 

[65ND]

ND was 10-3 last year, not 9-4.

OOPS let's agree on 9-3 as Hartman opted out of the bowl game after he said he would play. His record 9-3.

 

[FightingIrish44]

OP compared Leonard to Hartman, who was not around for win #10. That must have been why he used ALL CAPS.

We really need Leonard's adjusted yards per play to have an idea of how well he plays. My memory of his opener against Clemson in 2023 was that the defense and special teams kept pinning the Tigers back deep.

That was more of a team win and Clemson screwing up rather than Leonard winning the game although he had some nice runs if I recall correctly. Leonard was 17-33 for 175 yards.

 

[Patrirish]

I don’t know that I would call it an experiment rather than an effort in trying to acquire the best quarterback available, internally or externally

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

To the original point, I don't disagree that Angeli deserves a legitimate shot at winning the starting QB position, but I just don't see him beating out Riley Leonard. I agree with Golson that Riley Leonard has way more upside than Sam Hartman did. He is bigger, faster, and is simply a much better athlete. (I will, however, concede Hartman the crown for best hair.) I don't see how it can be disputed that Leonard is a superior athlete to Hartman. And while Leonard may not have a cannon for an arm, he has more arm strength than Hartman did. I was very impressed with Leonard when we beat Duke last year, and that was long before there was any inkling he might end up at ND through the transfer portal. Leonard's ability to make reads and throw passes with touch probably need work, but hopefully that will happen. I am pretty excited to see how Riley plays this year. And with Angeli, Minchey and CJ Carr behind Leonard, I see the QB position as a strength.

 

[Holycrossover3]

Play the best player; it’s pretty simple. I don’t care if it’s Leonard, Angeli, Minchey, or Carr.

Sam Hartman has nothing to do with Riley Leonard. I would’ve loved to see how Hartman performed if he even had an average receiving core last year.

Look at college football as a whole and explain to me how transfer QB’s aren’t successful…. 4 of the last 6 heisman QB’s were transfers. Play the best player, period.

 

[Patrirish]

Play the best player; it’s pretty simple. I don’t care if it’s Leonard, Angeli, Minchey, or Carr.

Sam Hartman has nothing to do with Riley Leonard. I would’ve loved to see how Hartman performed if he even had an average receiving core last year.

Look at college football as a whole and explain to me how transfer QB’s aren’t successful…. 4 of the last 6 heisman QB’s were transfers. Play the best player, period.

👍👍👍

 

[FightingIrish44]

To the original point, I don't disagree that Angeli deserves a legitimate shot at winning the starting QB position, but I just don't see him beating out Riley Leonard. I agree with Golson that Riley Leonard has way more upside than Sam Hartman did. He is bigger, faster, and is simply a much better athlete. (I will, however, concede Hartman the crown for best hair.) I don't see how it can be disputed that Leonard is a superior athlete to Hartman. And while Leonard may not have a cannon for an arm, he has more arm strength than Hartman did. I was very impressed with Leonard when we beat Duke last year, and that was long before there was any inkling he might end up at ND through the transfer portal. Leonard's ability to make reads and throw passes with touch probably need work, but hopefully that will happen. I am pretty excited to see how Riley plays this year. And with Angeli, Minchey and CJ Carr behind Leonard, I see the QB position as a strength.

I agree that Leonard is bigger and a little faster but I don’t think Angeli, Hartman, and Leonard are all that different from each other.

Regarding Leonard against ND last year, he was 12-27 with 134 yards. Two drops that would have been another 10-15 yards. So about 14-27 150 yards and one INT. That’s not to say that stats tell the whole story of a game.

Rushing he was 18 rushes for 88 yards. 54 came on two runs. On one run he made a nice move on Morrison although Morrison was in a tough spot. 33 yards. Another one there was an open rush lane and he got another easy 21 yards. There were a couple other 7ish yard gains that I think Hartman and Angeli would have picked up about the same.

If you watch the game again, Hartman had about 4 plays where a blitzer or edge rusher came free and he was able to beat that guy to the outside and gain yards on the ground or get a pass off. He also converted the 4th and 16 to set up the win.

I don’t see much difference in arm strength between the three. Leonard is probably better at breaking tackles but Hartman was still quick enough to make guys miss. If you watch the Oregon State game again, Angeli scrambles/runs three times around the 9:00 mark of the 2nd quarter and then 3:45 and 0:40 of the 3rd quarter. It really doesn’t look all that different from Leonard if you ask me.

To be fair, there are times where it looks like Leonard is running the same speed as DB’s but other times he looks about the same as Angeli speedwise. It was difficult for me to discern. I also trust Leonard’s ability to break tackles more than the other two but we haven’t seen a lot of Angeli.

It will be tough for Angeli to win I think just based on age and experience but I could see Angeli possibly being the better play at the end of their careers. Accuracy and decision-making will be the decider.

 

[Golson5]

I agree that Leonard is bigger and a little faster but I don’t think Angeli, Hartman, and Leonard are all that different from each other.

Regarding Leonard against ND last year, he was 12-27 with 134 yards. Two drops that would have been another 10-15 yards. So about 14-27 150 yards and one INT. That’s not to say that stats tell the whole story of a game.

Rushing he was 19 rushes for 88 yards. 54 came on two runs. On one run he made a nice move on Morrison although Morrison was in a tough spot. 33 yards. Another one there was an open rush lane and he got another easy 21 yards. There were a couple other 7ish yard gains that I think Hartman and Angeli would have picked up about the same.

If you watch the game again, Hartman had about 4 plays where a blitzer or edge rusher came free and he was able to beat that guy to the outside and gain yards on the ground or get a pass off. He also converted the 4th and 16 to set up the win.

I don’t see much difference in arm strength between the three. Leonard is probably better at breaking tackles but Hartman was still quick enough to make guys miss. If you watch the Oregon State game again, Angeli scrambles/runs three times around the 9:00 mark of the 2nd quarter and then 3:45 and 0:40 of the 3rd quarter. It really doesn’t look all that different from Leonard if you ask me.

To be fair, there are times where it looks like Leonard is running the same speed as DB’s but other times he looks about the same as Angeli speedwise. It was difficult for me to discern. I also trust Leonard’s ability to break tackles more than the other two but we haven’t seen a lot of Angeli.

It will be tough for Angeli to win I think just based on age and experience but I could see Angeli possibly being the better play at the end of their careers. Accuracy and decision-making will be the decider.

Leonard is bigger, more athletic , and has a stronger arm

 

[echowaker]

Leonard is bigger, more athletic , and has a stronger arm

And a thrower not a passer like Hartman is. I don't think ND is any better with Leonard than they would be with Angeli. Team game. Put either one at QB and the win total is the same.

 

[mirer03]

Leonard seems to be the leader in the clubhouse going into Spring ball. I remember a similar vibe this time last year. Hartman was the QB we'd dreamed of for so long. Yet at season's end you look at his production – and damn – he's the same guy he was at Wake! 9 and 4 there - 9 and 4 here.

Back to Riley and his history.

• played in 26 games - 61.7% complete - avg 11,6 yards – 24 TD – 10 INT
  
• 226 runs for 1224 yards – 5.4 yards avg – 19 TD
  
• that's 43 TDs in 26 games or 1,65 a game
  
• played average competition – 5 top 25 teams – 1 win and 4 lost
  
• beat CLEMSON at home first game in 2023 but lost to FSU & ND
  
• lost to PITT in '21 & '22 – that's it for top 25 teams
  
  
  My conclusion. You have to give Angeli an honest evaluation going forward, My first worry is the TEXAS A&M game, Elko, an excellent defensive mind. coached Leonard for his last 2 seasons. Riley's first BIG road game atmosphere against his former coach? Not the match up I want to see. Suggestion. Think Tim Tebow and use Leonard as a package player. Allow Angeli to make the most of our passing game. Oh! And BTW, Never forget the Hartman experiment.

We have gotten two transfers the last two years because they HAVE given Angeli a full evaluation.

It's a new offense.

Riley and Angeli are starting at the same spot. I am not as enamored with Riley as Golson but he's a huge upgrade to Angeli.

 

[mirer03]

Lol. Checkdown Angeli.

Folks Denbrock isnt going to cut his playbook in half like Rees did to cover up a passers flaws.

Angeli is a game day backup. But if something happens to Riley for multiple games I bet that Angeli gets passed over.

ND does not have national championship level potential with Angeli at QB.

 

[Golson5]

And a thrower not a passer like Hartman is. I don't think ND is any better with Leonard than they would be with Angeli. Team game. Put either one at QB and the win total is the same.

Wow another bad take from echo. Shocker

 

[FightingIrish44]

We have gotten two transfers the last two years because they HAVE given Angeli a full evaluation.

It's a new offense.

Riley and Angeli are starting at the same spot. I am not as enamored with Riley as Golson but he's a huge upgrade to Angeli.

I don’t mean to be petty but there was no transfer for the 2022 season. Angeli was only a sophomore last season. You’re always trying to improve the roster. After the 2022 season ND had Buchner, Pyne, and Angeli, and they still went and got Hartman.

 

[Terry Jillery]

Nobody knows shit.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Leonard is bigger, more athletic , and has a stronger arm

He’s absolutely more physically gifted than Hartman, haven’t seen enough to know if he’s a more talented player or passer.

 

[mirer03]

I don’t mean to be petty but there was no transfer for the 2022 season. Angeli was only a sophomore last season. You’re always trying to improve the roster. After the 2022 season ND had Buchner, Pyne, and Angeli, and they still went and got Hartman.

1. Hartman and staff new he was coming mid fall.

2. They knew the room they had and still went out to get two QBs vs giving Angeli any shot.

3. Angeli was always a good kid that the ND staff accepted way too early in his class. From day 1 it was very unlikely he would be a starter ever at Notre dame.

 

[mirer03]

He’s absolutely more physically gifted than Hartman, haven’t seen enough to know if he’s a more talented player or passer.

He has shown demonstratively less talent as a passer than Hartman and more athletic than Hartman. However, his potential ceiling is markedly higher than hartmans.

Some fall in love with his measurables and think he's a first rounder.

I think the reality is he showed out in a few games and is likely closer to a third rounder when all is said and done...

Either way... He's a much better option than Angeli.

 

[TDIrish27]

1. Hartman and staff new he was coming mid fall.

2. They knew the room they had and still went out to get two QBs vs giving Angeli any shot.

3. Angeli was always a good kid that the ND staff accepted way too early in his class. From day 1 it was very unlikely he would be a starter ever at Notre dame.

Did you watch him when he did play ?

Tell me exactly what you saw you didn't like.

 

[FightingIrish44]

1. Hartman and staff new he was coming mid fall.

2. They knew the room they had and still went out to get two QBs vs giving Angeli any shot.

3. Angeli was always a good kid that the ND staff accepted way too early in his class. From day 1 it was very unlikely he would be a starter ever at Notre dame.

Why would a coach just give Angeli the shot regardless of his talent? He’s unproven and there are two younger guys that haven’t played either. Why would you not go and get Hartman and Leonard — two proven commodities? Even if Angeli was pegged as a future Heisman, is the QB room better or worse with Leonard?

Angeli has some good offers reported, ESPN had him as #8 QB and 247 Composite lists him #21.

 

[mirer03]

Did you watch him when he did play ?

Tell me exactly what you saw you didn't like.

I did watch him play Vs multiple second and third string defenders on a team that didn't have their head coach. He did fine.

The facts are

He has a long delivery. Very long

He is left over from the conservative/safe play calling. Denbrock isn't a "safe" underneath OC.

He's not mobile enough to excel in denbocks scheme and is much more of a pro style passer.

He has a tendency to check down early vs give his guys a chance.

He's a game manager, not a game changer.


The biggest issue is the fact that coaches have watched him for years and the moment that could be his to start their first inclination is to bring in a transfer. This ALONE tells you all you need to know.

 

[NDblitz]

Leonard seems to be the leader in the clubhouse going into Spring ball. I remember a similar vibe this time last year. Hartman was the QB we'd dreamed of for so long. Yet at season's end you look at his production – and damn – he's the same guy he was at Wake! 9 and 4 there - 9 and 4 here.

Back to Riley and his history.

• played in 26 games - 61.7% complete - avg 11,6 yards – 24 TD – 10 INT
  
• 226 runs for 1224 yards – 5.4 yards avg – 19 TD
  
• that's 43 TDs in 26 games or 1,65 a game
  
• played average competition – 5 top 25 teams – 1 win and 4 lost
  
• beat CLEMSON at home first game in 2023 but lost to FSU & ND
  
• lost to PITT in '21 & '22 – that's it for top 25 teams
  
  
  My conclusion. You have to give Angeli an honest evaluation going forward, My first worry is the TEXAS A&M game, Elko, an excellent defensive mind. coached Leonard for his last 2 seasons. Riley's first BIG road game atmosphere against his former coach? Not the match up I want to see. Suggestion. Think Tim Tebow and use Leonard as a package player. Allow Angeli to make the most of our passing game. Oh! And BTW, Never forget the Hartman experiment.

• beat CLEMSON at home first game in 2023 but lost to FSU & ND - was on one leg vs FSU btw.

 

[Patrirish]

I did watch him play Vs multiple second and third string defenders on a team that didn't have their head coach. He did fine.

The facts are

He has a long delivery. Very long

He is left over from the conservative/safe play calling. Denbrock isn't a "safe" underneath OC.

He's not mobile enough to excel in denbocks scheme and is much more of a pro style passer.

He has a tendency to check down early vs give his guys a chance.

He's a game manager, not a game changer.


The biggest issue is the fact that coaches have watched him for years and the moment that could be his to start their first inclination is to bring in a transfer. This ALONE tells you all you need to know.

👍

 

[NDinNJ]

I did watch him play Vs multiple second and third string defenders on a team that didn't have their head coach. He did fine.

The facts are

He has a long delivery. Very long

He is left over from the conservative/safe play calling. Denbrock isn't a "safe" underneath OC.

He's not mobile enough to excel in denbocks scheme and is much more of a pro style passer.

He has a tendency to check down early vs give his guys a chance.

He's a game manager, not a game changer.


The biggest issue is the fact that coaches have watched him for years and the moment that could be his to start their first inclination is to bring in a transfer. This ALONE tells you all you need to know.

As Golson5 would say, coaches make mistakes all the time.