Honest question: Why does ND struggle to recruit RBs these days?

[IrishMike409]

You are asking the question that I'm giving the answer to in this very topic: Lack of talent.

Chase- the whole OL is Top 100/150 guys. The RBs are usually 4 star guys.

That should be plenty. No?

6 or 7 Big 10 Teams will outscore us vs tOSU this year. They won’t have our talent.

I’ve been on this kick in several threads. Maybe I’m the only guy seeing it.

I still think we win 10 or 11, plus a bowl this year.

 

[chaseball]

Chase- the whole OL is Top 100/150 guys. The RBs are usually 4 star guys.

That should be plenty. No?

No. You must define/quantify "plenty" or else you are running blind.

When you ask me what "plenty" is, it's when you are at least on par with your competition.

Who is NDs competition? The power programs dominating college football and gatekeeping our national-title trophy every season for the last 25+ years (e.g. Texas, OSU, USC, Florida, Georgia, FSU, LSU, Alabama, among others over that time).

ND MUST recruit on par with them at the position group or it isn't "plenty" and it's actually a glaring problem in the program which it has been under the majority of the BK era -- and still is to this day.

 

[Golson5]

I don't understand why we can't have an honest discussion about gaping holes in the roster (like at RB) and a serious lack of talent relative to the top teams in the country at the position. Why does this conversation trigger so many people?

Only way to enact change is to discuss it and bring it to light.

Instead all of the post game analysis from the "experts" about the poor running game is about scheme and offensive line play when our offensive line is loaded most years with super star players that get drafted in the first half of the NFL draft, and our RBs are 3 & 4 star guys who lack elite athleticism and production.

Because you were wrong. It's not a gaping hole. Lets have an honest discussion but lets not lie about the facts

Tyree top 100
Estime 4 star
Price 4 star
Payne 4 star

The osu game had nothing to do with the rbs. And everything to do with the OL and QB and WR

 

[4-4-3]

There's a lot more upside at the RB position in college football than what ND is getting out of it currently.

Kyren Williams was a rare diamond in the ruff who otherwise masked a seriously mediocre stable of RBs on the depth chart. We need to start recruiting some gamebreakers there, and not relying on hitting the lotto with another Kyren Williams.

No question, but where is ND getting GAME BREAKERS at ANY skill position?

ND has a MINDSET. HIgh school football players have MINDSETS. Do you think -- and I'm seriously asking -- that there are more high school recruits looking at the world through an Alabama/OSU/Clemson PRISM or through BLUE AND GOLD COLORED GLASSES?

Who had the better players when it counted last Saturday night -- OSU or ND? It was OSU as it ALMOST ALWAYS HAS BEEN since Holtz left.

OSU is an UNRESTRICTED RECRUITER. ND has NARROWER PARAMETERS.

BECAUSE ND looks for some version of the complete STUDENT ATHLETE it must of NECESSITY ADVERSELY SELECT AGAINST ITSELF. It simply DOESN'T GET THE CHANCE to PICK FROM THE BEST.

AND THE PROOF IS IN THE ROSTER. ROSTER AFTER ROSTER.

I'm sure Marcus Freeman has a LEGITIMATE, AUTHENTIC, HEARTFELT PITCH. But neither he NOR ANYONE can TRANSFORM anyone else's MINDSET, let alone the PREVAILING MINDSET.

For the average superior athlete, ND is simply NOT the destination of choice. NOR, GIVEN ND'S STANDARDS, IS IT MEANT TO BE.

ND would IDEALLY like a roster of RHODES SCHOLARS: Bill Bradley's and Tom McMillen's. But then it also wants to win an NC.

In what world is something like this even CONCEIVABLE? When you restrict your OPTIONS, you then can't COMPLAIN about your results.

 

[4-4-3]

Alright, then. Thank you, chase ball! I will pass this on, I will relay this up the ladder, and make sure it gets to the desk of one Marcus Freeman, post haste!

And then we can all rest assured that he will be on the mother! And we'll be right as rain.....

You are one funny guy.

Your post, with only minor changes, would have made for an excellent John Goodman bit in one of those bowling alley scenes in The Big Lebowski.

And I'm not pulling your chain. I found it really funny.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Well it looks like the OP got his wish, and we now have a robust discourse going, on the state of our RB situation for ND football, and our lack of elite, superstar, super-dominant RBs, and all the manifold benefits the program has gone without, on account of not having had any of these wonder-backs at ND....

Maybe if we all rise up, we can redress this inequity....

 

[4-4-3]

And if someone better than kyren was there is it not also logical that we may have won more?

Again, rb recruiting isn't bad, but imagine an Ezekiel Elliot or Derrick Henry in the backfield. I love kyren, but that's a different team

Amen.

And who was ND's last 5-star RB recruit? Was it Cierre Wood? I seem to remember him being demoted to 4-star right at the end.

Either way, I don't think ND has had a running back since him with that level of SHEER TALENT. And when I say talent I mean, RUN WITH A FOOTBALL TUCKED UNDER HIS ARM.

 

[savvyandsassier]

You are one funny guy.

Your post, with only minor changes, would have made for an excellent John Goodman bit in one of those bowling alley scenes in The Big Lebowski.

And I'm not pulling your chain. I found it really funny.

Oh yeah? I was just being stupid. And I'm willing to engage in mindless football talk as much as the next guy. And sometimes not altogether mindless, if it's something big and momentous, like paying the players, or joining the Big Ten. And one can indulge in some impassioned opining and whatnot....

But serious discussions about how come we aren't able to recruit better RBs, and how we probably ought to start recruiting better RBs is a bridge too far for me.....

 

[4-4-3]

Oh yeah? I was just being stupid. And I'm willing to engage in mindless football talk as much as the next guy. And sometimes not altogether mindless, if it's something big and momentous, like paying the players, or joining the Big Ten. And one can indulge in some impassioned opining and whatnot....

But serious discussions about how come we aren't able to recruit better RBs, and how we probably ought to start recruiting better RBs is a bridge too far for me.....

Fair enough, and, for the record, I, for my part, wasn't trying to criticze the OP by posting that what you said struck me as funny.

But what you wrote simply made me LAUGH. And it came at a good time as I NEEDED TO.

Your second post was also funny.

There's an absurdity to all of this you sometimes NAIL.

 

[tbone3114]

ND usually has one of the better offensive lines in the country most years. Why is it such a struggle to get gamebreakers at RB over the last several years? With NDs prestige & OL reputation, top 100/50/25 prospects at RB should be beating down the doors to play RB at ND. Instead it's rare we get any RB commitments in the top 100, and mostly get LOIs from prospects way down in the ~200-300 (low to mid 4 star range).

Any thoughts?

Hmmm, this should be revisited in the next two to three years with MF now the head coach(great recruiter) ... example: I don't believe CJ Carr comes here if BK is still the coach... again BK made ND a good consistent team again.. I think MF will take it to the next level...

 

[chaseball]

Hmmm, this should be revisited in the next two to three years with MF now the head coach(great recruiter) ... example: I don't believe CJ Carr comes here if BK is still the coach... again BK made ND a good consistent team again.. I think MF will take it to the next level...

ND is still missing out on its top targets at RB on the recruiting trail under Freeman in the '23 class.

 

[88ND]

ND usually has one of the better offensive lines in the country most years. Why is it such a struggle to get gamebreakers at RB over the last several years? With NDs prestige & OL reputation, top 100/50/25 prospects at RB should be beating down the doors to play RB at ND. Instead it's rare we get any RB commitments in the top 100, and mostly get LOIs from prospects way down in the ~200-300 (low to mid 4 star range).

Any thoughts?

Sure...
No identity...

They aren't a running team and they aren't a passing team.

They try to be some of both but they don't fully sell out to one or the other.

The other thing...

Winning...

Kids (they're still kids until about 25) are drawn to winning. Don't give me the hallmark song and dance of BK winning all these games. He beat up on daisies and get's absolutely pasted by the top teams.

Back to the no man's land....

Allow me a little story..
When BK was at Cincinnati they were on ESPN quite frequently. Why? They were explosive and here was this non football school making noise.
You know what he did? Ran hurry up no huddle offense all the time. When it was a rarity in football he was exploiting that. They were snapping the ball quickly. Very!!!

Soom everyone did that. (Copycat business)What cutting-edge thing did he do for an advantage? Nothing. Now he has to really coach. Thus...the results speak for themselves.

Saturday night #7 should've had 25 carries. At least!
Nope!
We had to give Tyree meaningless touches.

Ya know what Rees and MF need to do...study...go and visit Holtz who was an absolute master of using the right back against the right teams.

Tyree will have huge games against say a Marshall or a Navy.
Against a fast defense he is nullified.
#7 on the other hand is a load who runs very hard. OSU wanted no more of him and Rees obliged.

Sometimes it's your day and sonetimes not but the coaches here seem hell bent on dividing up carries by default.

Just like at running back why would any top receiver want to come here?
You don't showcase anything running curl and sit routes.

It's pretty god damn sad when a saftey valve is always the first,second and third option on every passing play.

Again...I wouldn't promote any top receiver or RB to come here.

The kid who went to Clemson. Good for him. He'd be running dive plays here for about 8 attempts before being spelled for #7 to run east west run plays.

No mans land brotha....

 

[Golson5]

ND is still missing out on its top targets at RB on the recruiting trail under Freeman in the '23 class.

They're about to land top 100 Jer Love

 

[BGI User 756]

ND is still missing out on its top targets at RB on the recruiting trail under Freeman in the '23 class.

This is such an out of context post, and of course purposeful on your part. Tyree, Diggs, Price were all in ND’s top targets list. The number one was Shipley and then Singleton but next in line we’re those above

 

[francade]

“No question, but where is ND getting GAME BREAKERS at ANY skill position?”

we consistently have TEs that are some of the better TEs in the country, if not the best. Another example of misguided, hyperbolic horseshit from the serial pontificator.

 

[Get Nasty]

“No question, but where is ND getting GAME BREAKERS at ANY skill position?”

we consistently have TEs that are some of the better TEs in the country, if not the best. Another example of misguided, hyperbolic horseshit from the serial pontificator.

TEs, even the best of the best are rarely game breakers at the college level.

If we land Love, we will have some interesting speed for the RB/Slot spot. Our 3 WR commits aren't burners at all. Actually if we land Lyons, he'll be our lowest recruit but by far the fastest WR.

I do hope Estime, although not a burner, can be a game changer at RB if the oline gets their act together.

 

[Golson5]

TEs, even the best of the best are rarely game breakers at the college level.

If we land Love, we will have some interesting speed for the RB/Slot spot. Our 3 WR commits aren't burners at all. Actually if we land Lyons, he'll be our lowest recruit but by far the fastest WR.

I do hope Estime, although not a burner, can be a game changer at RB if the oline gets their act together.

Edwards is a slot guy and he might be the fastest player in the country. James has really good speed. Flores looks faster this year

 

[88ND]

“No question, but where is ND getting GAME BREAKERS at ANY skill position?”

we consistently have TEs that are some of the better TEs in the country, if not the best. Another example of misguided, hyperbolic horseshit from the serial pontificator.

TE's aren't game breakers.

They're a great tool and tough match-up no doubt. A lethal tool when complementing good receivers.

Our #1 receiver is the TE. Our #2 best receiver might be Mayer's backup.

That's definitely a problem.

Moreover allow me a quick example of game breaker vs. Not.

Our first pass to the receiver on the sideline was a missed tackle and up the sideline he goes.

Now I'm certain you watched but he might be the slowest wide receiver OSU will face all year.
He spun out of the tackle...great.
Then he lumbered down the sideline which looked like an eternity.
He didn't even look like a fluid runner. I mean literally lumbering down the sideline with absolutely no chance for a score.

A game breaker might score on that straight down the line or would cut back against the grain once the pursuing defender got near.

Our receiver... lumbering... had no chance at either.

No offense but I'm certain a lot of our fans were all giddy after that play but I thought gee...if that's one of our top receivers our perimter playmaking is still below average.

 

[Get Nasty]

Edwards is a slot guy and he might be the fastest player in the country. James has really good speed. Flores looks faster this year

I see some Kevin AUstin in James. That's not a bad thing if we can get to Austin's Sr year by James soph year.

Are we sure edwards is being recruited as slot and not a better version of tyree?

 

[Golson5]

I see some Kevin AUstin in James. That's not a bad thing if we can get to Austin's Sr year by James soph year.

Are we sure edwards is being recruited as slot and not a better version of tyree?

He's way too small to play full time rb. He's 165lbs. He's smaller than tyree at same age

 

[francade]

“TE's aren't game breakers”

That’s your opinion. We’ve had TEs take over games in the past. I didn’t think a game breaker had to run a sub 4.whatever to be a game breaker. We’ve had plenty of TEs that made a lot of big plays, game breaking plays one would say. But, if you’re strictly talking gamebreaking speed, that’s different.

 

[francade]

“TEs, even the best of the best are rarely game breakers at the college level.”

As I said above, If you’re talking about speed, it’s one thing, if you’re talking about making game breaking plays, that’s another. There’s plenty of TEs that make game changing plays in the college game, hard to say otherwise.

 

[adrian1477]

You have been posting here for a long time, albeit under multiple handles. The one common theme running through about 95% of your posts is bad mouthing ND's talent. Over and over and over, you have maintained ND did not have five star talent in this area or in that area. The one thing you seem to focus on, to the exclusion of all others, is that ND's talent level needs to be upgraded. Mind you, ND has gone to one NC game and two other playoffs in the past decade, but you still criticize the talent level.
Now you have chosen to criticize the RB's. Marcus Freeman joined the coaching staff, on the defensive side, a little more than a year ago. Now he is coaching his first full season as head coach. How about letting Freeman have a chance to coach more than one game before you bad mouth the talent level of the kids now playing?

OP is right! 100%! We get CRUSHED when we go up against the elite in the playoffs & natty and keep in mind, we don't have to play a conference championship! Do the homework and you'll see that no, we don't get the best.

 

[NDSMC78]

OP is right! 100%! We get CRUSHED when we go up against the elite in the playoffs & natty and keep in mind, we don't have to play a conference championship! Do the homework and you'll see that no, we don't get the best.

You are new to this board. Our friend chaseball has been here for more than a decade. He is famous for hair pulling and bad mouthing ND's talent. He has done it for years.
ND has, in the past decade, played for the NC once, and been in the playoffs a couple other times. Only a handful of schools can say they have done as much.
We have a new coach who is just starting his first season on the sideline. I'm all for for giving him a chance to succeed before I complain about his recruiting.

 

[Get Nasty]

He's way too small to play full time rb. He's 165lbs. He's smaller than tyree at same age

Sure but tyree is playing wayyy less true rb than we all expected when he signed

 

[Get Nasty]

“TEs, even the best of the best are rarely game breakers at the college level.”

As I said above, If you’re talking about speed, it’s one thing, if you’re talking about making game breaking plays, that’s another. There’s plenty of TEs that make game changing plays in the college game, hard to say otherwise.

Sure but don’t remember many TEs taking over games like Floyd fuller claypool did at times or Williams at rb even fester Williams Adam’s a few times…. Eifert never even had 100 yards in a game

 

[adrian1477]

You are new to this board. Our friend chaseball has been here for more than a decade. He is famous for hair pulling and bad mouthing ND's talent. He has done it for years.
ND has, in the past decade, played for the NC once, and been in the playoffs a couple other times. Only a handful of schools can say they have done as much.
We have a new coach who is just starting his first season on the sideline. I'm all for for giving him a chance to succeed before I complain about his recruiting.

I am and that's fair enough. There's still a long way to go until players in this class sign. I HOPE & PRAY that Freeman can change our recruiting for the better but losing Keon Keeley, Dante Moore and Jason Moore hurts. We lose Peyton Bowen to OU or A&M, its really going to hurt. We shall see...

 

[88ND]

“TEs, even the best of the best are rarely game breakers at the college level.”

As I said above, If you’re talking about speed, it’s one thing, if you’re talking about making game breaking plays, that’s another. There’s plenty of TEs that make game changing plays in the college game, hard to say otherwise.

They do when complementing good wide receivers. It's a matchup nightmare.

When your #1 receuver is the TE and quite possibly the #2 best receiver on the team is the backup TE...
Sort of backs you right into a corner.

 

[savvyandsassier]

I am and that's fair enough. There's still a long way to go until players in this class sign. I HOPE & PRAY that Freeman can change our recruiting for the better but losing Keon Keeley, Dante Moore and Jason Moore hurts. We lose Peyton Bowen to OU or A&M, it really going to hurt. We shall see...

You're obviously not a new poster. I'm just going to go ahead and call you a troll, no offense. So why not just drop the charade. I don't have any proof of that, but I refuse to believe that some happy-go-lucky, wet behind the ears, gosh-golly ND fan who just joined up on some message board is already this morbidly obsessed with ND's recruiting right off the bat, with the same sort of slightly frantic, paranoid vibe to your absurd and inappropriate complaining as the OP. Especially when our current recruiting class is #3 in the country. And our 2024 class is ranked #1.

And if you really are an honest to goodness new poster, and not just some troll with a new account, you don't want to go down the same road as whoever this chaseball person is. You'll regret it.

 

[adrian1477]

You're obviously not a new poster. I'm just going to go ahead and call you a troll, no offense. So why not just drop the charade. I don't have any proof of that, but I refuse to believe that some happy-go-lucky, wet behind the ears, gosh-golly ND fan who just joined up on some message board is already this morbidly obsessed with ND's recruiting right off the bat, with the same sort of slightly frantic, paranoid vibe to your absurd and inappropriate complaining as the OP. Especially when our current recruiting class is #3 in the country. And our 2024 class is ranked #1.

And if you really are an honest to goodness new poster, and not just some troll with a new account, you don't want to go down the same road as whoever this chaseball person is. You'll regret it.

Who in the f are you? If my posts offend your little ego, block me. The last thing I'm going to stand for is someone threatening me on this board. What exactly will I regret? You going to beat me up tough guy? Stop being a keyboard warrior and if you don't like what I'm saying, prove me wrong with facts. Also, you obviously don't understand recruiting. Where we stand right now with either the '23 or '24 class is irrelevant until these players sign. Now... go try to intimidate someone else cause I ain't the one.

 

[adrian1477]

Well it looks like the OP got his wish, and we now have a robust discourse going, on the state of our RB situation for ND football, and our lack of elite, superstar, super-dominant RBs, and all the manifold benefits the program has gone without, on account of not having had any of these wonder-backs at ND....

Maybe if we all rise up, we can redress this inequity....

Or perhaps we can create a safe space for fans like you who get offended.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Who in the f are you? If my posts offend your little ego, block me. The last thing I'm going to stand for is someone threatening me on this board. What exactly will I regret? You going to beat me up tough guy? Stop being a keyboard warrior and if you don't like what I'm saying, prove me wrong with facts. Also, you obviously don't understand recruiting. Where we stand right now with either the '23 or '24 class is irrelevant until these players sign. Now... go try to intimidate someone else cause I ain't the one.

And now you're unsurprisingly wigging out, which of course is not how normal, in-good-conscience posters behave. So strike two, I guess.....

In any event, so it appears you're going to be a fixture on here now, carrying on like a raving derelict about our non-existent looming recruiting apocalypse on a pretty regular basis? I would imagine so....

 

[adrian1477]

And now you're unsurprisingly wigging out, which of course is not how normal, in-good-conscience posters behave. So strike two, I guess.....

In any event, so it appears you're going to be a fixture on here now, carrying on like a raving derelict about our non-existent looming recruiting apocalypse on a pretty regular basis? I would imagine so...

Not wigging out at all. People like you amuse me. Tough guys behind a keyboard and blah, blah, blah and you hurt my feelings etc... Hell, give me strike #3. You threatened me. And you are correct, I'm not going anywhere. So go find someone else to bully, Sassy. Still waiting on your facts to disprove what I've posted about ND recruiting, boo.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Not wigging out at all. People like you amuse me. Tough guys behind a keyboard and blah, blah, blah and you hurt my feelings etc... Hell, give me strike #3. You threatened me. And you are correct, I'm not going anywhere. So go find someone else to bully, Sassy. Still waiting on your facts to disprove what I've posted about ND recruiting, boo.

Okay, you're obviously a troll. God dammit.....

Oh, and I got an alert that you're now 'following' me, so does that mean you're some kind of psychotic stalker? Please don't end up being a crazy stalker, and prove that people like me merely amuse you by maintaining your composure in my presence, and always being gracious and genteel anytime someone disagrees with you, or even calls you out, which will probably happen.....

 

[adrian1477]

Okay, you're obviously a troll. God dammit.....

Oh, and I got an alert that you're now 'following' me, so does that mean you're some kind of psychotic stalker? Please don't end up being a crazy stalker, and prove that people like me merely amuse you by maintaining your composure in my presence, and always being gracious and genteel anytime someone disagrees with you, or even calls you out, which will probably happen.....

Now Sassy, thou shall not use the Lord's name in vain. And your composure seems to be dwindling away. You came at me 1st with zero facts supporting your argument. You then closed your BS post threatening me. What did you say? Oh here it is... "You'll regret it." Now, I have ZERO issues being "called out" or someone disagreeing with me. All I ask is that those with differing opinions support their argument with facts. That's all. Again, please give me the facts that support your argument that ND recruiting isn't an issue in our objective of winning another National Title

 

[savvyandsassier]

Now Sassy, thou shall not use the Lord's name in vain. And your composure seems to be dwindling away. You came at me 1st with zero facts supporting your argument. You then closed your BS post threatening me. What did you say? Oh here it is... "You'll regret it." Now, I have ZERO issues being "called out" or someone disagreeing with me. All I ask is that those with differing opinions support their argument with facts. That's all. Again, please give me the facts that support your argument that ND recruiting isn't an issue in our objective of winning another National Title

Jesus, man, you're not even trying to hide it. F, I'll just put you on ignore, because you sound like a legitimate disturbed dude.

And in case you're wondering, this is not how normal people with clean consciences present themselves. You gotta learn how to slow your roll, son. Discretion is the better part of valor and all that. I admit I'm sensitive to trolls, and random weirdos coming on to a ND board, nominally for ND football fans, and wildly obsessing over some random recruiting thing, or whatever it is.... But shit... Anyway, I'll put you on ignore and try to pretend you don't exist. And please go ahead an unfollow me if you'd be so kind.

 

[Golson5]

Sure but tyree is playing wayyy less true rb than we all expected when he signed

Exactly. So a guy who is even smaller wont play at rb

 

[adrian1477]

Jesus, man, you're not even trying to hide it. F, I'll just put you on ignore, because you sound like a legitimate disturbed dude.

And in case you're wondering, this is not how normal people with clean consciences present themselves. You gotta learn how to slow your roll, son. Discretion is the better part of valor and all that. I admit I'm sensitive to trolls, and random weirdos coming on to a ND board, nominally for ND football fans, and wildly obsessing over some random recruiting thing, or whatever it is.... But shit... Anyway, I'll put you on ignore and try to pretend you don't exist. And please go ahead an unfollow me if you'd be so kind.

So we can't be friends? And thank you for your psychological evaluation of me. Now here's mine of you... You're a bully on this board. Someone says something you don't like and your response is, "you'll regret it." Like I said, I'm not the one and you DO NOT intimidate me. All I asked was for you to support your argument with facts and you've been ducking and dodging that request. I'm not going to "slow my role" or anything else you've requested. Like I said earlier, feel free to block me and go back to your safe space.

 

[Golson5]

So we can't be friends? And thank you for your psychological evaluation of me. Now here's mine of you... You're a bully on this board. Someone says something you don't like and your response is, "you'll regret it." Like I said, I'm not the one and you DO NOT intimidate me. All I asked was for you to support your argument with facts and you've been ducking and dodging that request. I'm not going to "slow my role" or anything else you've requested. Like I said earlier, feel free to block me and go back to your safe space.

Hes not a bully. Hes extremely soft and feminine

 

[Get Nasty]

Exactly. So a guy who is even smaller wont play at rb

Sure not in the true sense but like lamichael James at Oregon a lot of slot then shift to rb for speed plays etc. I’m just curious if he will be listed as true wr. James didn’t even have many catches, he was like 5’9 185