FSU 45. LSU 24. 8 years and $100mill!

[NDinNJ]

I see it MUCH DIFFERENTLY.

Stats are STATS. There’s no EQUALIZER FACTOR. At least not in the record books.

Kelly’s 54-9 is still what it is even as many prefer to view him as some kind of ANNOYANCE now “thankfully” receding in the rearview mirror. Plus, let’s see if Freeman can match those numbers and if he does, will we DEVALUE his accomplishment as well, having been achieved in the same “SOFT SCHEDULE” environment?

I’m no Kelly lover, but he did RESURRECT ND’s program.

What was Kelly’s main defect in the eyes of many? He told ND TO SHOVE IT. Second, he didn’t win an NC at a time his teams were OUTMANNED by their title and/or playoff opponents.

As for Ara, he was GREAT but FAR FROM PERFECT.

SOME PERSPECTIVE ON ARA:

During the great 64 REDEMPTION SEASON, ND DID NOT PLAY EVEN ONE RANKED TEAM.

Against USC, Ara went 3-6-2. Four of those losses were upsets; three by UNRANKED USC TEAMS; and two cost ND perfect seasons and, in all likelihood NC’s – 1964 and 1970. The 74 loss to USC was most likely the FOURTH MOST EMBARASSING in ND history – trailing only the 59-0 and 48-0 losses to Army and the 56-7 loss to Miami.

In that 74 game, ND went up 24-0 and still led 24-7 at halftime. Final score: USC 55 ND 24.

Against Purdue, Ara went 6-5. Four of those five losses were upsets, two of which came when ND was ranked #1. Another saw an UNRANKED Purdue team upset a #2 ND team. Finally, two of those upsets came against an ND DEFENDING NATIONAL CHAMPION.

Ara’s record against ALL RANKED OPPONENTS was 14-11-3 which converts when counting each tie as a win AND a loss to 17 and 14 or a winning percentage of 54.84%. Good? Mediocre? Take your pick. But CERTAINLY NOT WORLD BEATING.

Of course, we know that Ara won TWO NC’s and came quite close on two other occasions – BUT FOR THOSE TWO FINAL-GAME UPSETS BY UNRANKED USC TEAMS. And we also know of all of BRIAN KELLY’S NUMEROUS FAILINGS AND BLUNDERS TOO LENGTHY TO LIST HERE.

But to say that Kelly doesn’t even deserve his name mentioned alongside Ara’s gives Ara FAR TOO MUCH CREDIT and Kelly, TOO LITTLE. Trouble is, Ara has achieved MYTHICAL STATUS and is viewed as a FOOTBALL SAINT. Add to it that as a person he was in many ways Kelly’s antithesis, and it becomes all to easy to dismiss Kelly as some sort of BAD ACTOR.

It isn’t true. And my own sense is that Ara would be the FIRST to acknowledge the ENORMITY of good Brian Kelly did for ND’s football program.

I'll keep this simple, because you like to write novels to get a point across that takes a couple of sentences.

Ara WON TWO CHAMPIONSHIPS. Kelly has ZERO CHAMPIONSHIPS. You are comparing APPLES to ORANGES.

 

[francade]

All the yammering on about Kelly being devalued and ara being over valued is one more example of this poster not knowing shit, whilst acting as though he’s the foremost authority on past ND football. Any ND fan that even attempts to compare the two is a babbling idiot.

 

[deadirishpoet]

All the yammering on about Kelly being devalued and ara being over valued is one more example of this poster not knowing shit, whilst acting as though he’s the foremost authority on past ND football. Any ND fan that even attempts to compare the two is a babbling idiot.

I don't know about that....I thought it to be a knowledgeable well thought out point that made sense

 

[francade]

“I don't know about that....I thought it to be a knowledgeable well thought out point that made sense”

Congrats on thinking that Kelly and ara were the same, dip. Ara won two titles and setup Devine for a third in 10 years. Kelly lost every single monster game on his slate minus the ‘20 Clemson game (& somewhat Oklahoma a decade ago). Ara won some big games & nat’l titles, Kelly: not so much (or at all). So if you think that comparing a coach that won two titles and left the cupboard stocked to win another w/ a coach that had 12 years to win one and didn’t is a knowledgeable well thought out point, that’s your prerogative, but I thought it was the opposite. Just another dig at ND by ripping into our past glory by this ara hating poster. Nothing more.

 

[deadirishpoet]

“I don't know about that....I thought it to be a knowledgeable well thought out point that made sense”

Congrats on thinking that Kelly and ara were the same, dip. Ara won two titles and setup Devine for a third in 10 years. Kelly lost every single monster game on his slate minus the ‘20 Clemson game (& somewhat Oklahoma a decade ago). Ara won some big games & nat’l titles, Kelly: not so much (or at all). So if you think that comparing a coach that won two titles and left the cupboard stocked to win another w/ a coach that had 12 years to win one and didn’t is a knowledgeable well thought out point, that’s your prerogative, but I thought it was the opposite. Just another dig at ND by ripping into our past glory by this ara hating poster. Nothing more.

I don't think Kelly reached the same accolades as Ara and I don't believe that is what the poster was saying
I believe he was harsh on Kelly but did point out some interesting point to Ara tenure.....some I didn't realize.
Maybe Lou Holtz accomplishments to Kellys would be more damming considering the media screwed Lou Holtz out of two more NC plus Lou coached against a tougher schedule for the most part

 

[francade]

I know what he was saying, dip. He’s trying to bridge the gap between Ara & Kelly by telling all of us that it is some kind of “mythical” nostalgia we suffer from when reflecting on ND in the Ara era & that we should all genuflect because Kelly brought us back to respectability when we were down. As I said before, you’re entitled to loving this poster’s take & apparently knowing exactly what he meant by it & then questioning whether I did, but I’m gonna go ahead & wholeheartedly disagree w/ your & his opinion, while understanding exactly what he meant. Thanks for trying to explain his post to me though.

 

[deadirishpoet]

I know what he was saying, dip. He’s trying to bridge the gap between Ara & Kelly by telling all of us that it is some kind of “mythical” nostalgia we suffer from when reflecting on ND in the Ara era & that we should all genuflect because Kelly brought us back to respectability when we were down. As I said before, you’re entitled to loving this poster’s take & apparently knowing exactly what he meant by it & then questioning whether I did, but I’m gonna go ahead & wholeheartedly disagree w/ your & his opinion, while understanding exactly what he meant. Thanks for trying to explain his post to me though.

I would never speak on the behalf of anyone else especially when they can clearly do it better than me. I was just clarifying my response and I can appreciate. your take on it

 

[NDDadx3]

I know what he was saying, dip. He’s trying to bridge the gap between Ara & Kelly by telling all of us that it is some kind of “mythical” nostalgia we suffer from when reflecting on ND in the Ara era & that we should all genuflect because Kelly brought us back to respectability when we were down. As I said before, you’re entitled to loving this poster’s take & apparently knowing exactly what he meant by it & then questioning whether I did, but I’m gonna go ahead & wholeheartedly disagree w/ your & his opinion, while understanding exactly what he meant. Thanks for trying to explain his post to me though.

Thank you for laying this out so eloquently - the original post was raw sewage, not stupidity but actual intellectual dishonesty aimed at discrediting someone who is among the top coaches in history of college football as well as an absolute gentleman. I recently have been reading everything and anything written about Ara and his teams and there are some really good books that give you an appreciation of just how good we was and how much of a difficult situation he walked into and turned around. His players still revere him.

People can see BK how they wish, he took a great program in a downturn and put it back … he had some ups and downs and he left some bad stains too, a few scandals and a bunch of vacated wins … he’s far from pristine on that front despite the corny monikers he coined like RKG … fair or unfair to be great you have to win when the lights are brightest and the stakes are highest, that’s why Marv Levy was a very good coach and Bill Belichik is legendary.

 

[deadirishpoet]

Thank you for laying this out so eloquently - the original post was raw sewage, not stupidity but actual intellectual dishonesty aimed at discrediting someone who is among the top coaches in history of college football as well as an absolute gentleman. I recently have been reading everything and anything written about Ara and his teams and there are some really good books that give you an appreciation of just how good we was and how much of a difficult situation he walked into and turned around. His players still revere him.

People can see BK how they wish, he took a great program in a downturn and put it back … he had some ups and downs and he left some bad stains too, a few scandals and a bunch of vacated wins … he’s far from pristine on that front despite the corny monikers he coined like RKG … fair or unfair to be great you have to win when the lights are brightest and the stakes are highest, that’s why Marv Levy was a very good coach and Bill Belichik is legendary.

In what way did he discredit Ara? He was comparing stats and clearly posted Ara was the opposite of Kelly in regards to personality.

 

[mbd11]

I'll keep this simple, because you like to write novels to get a point across that takes a couple of sentences.

Ara WON a CHAMPIONSHIP, Kelly, has ZERO CHAMPIONSHIPS. You are comparing APPLES to ORANGES

Ara won two MNCs.

 

[NDinNJ]

Ara won two MNCs.

I know, and turned around a down ND program in year 1. To even try and draw the comparison is insulting to Ara. I edited my comment. It was late and was jet lagged from my flight back from the left coast. I also get a bit hyped when 4-4-3 draws comparisons of Ara with Kelly. .

 

[HarlemIrish]

I see it MUCH DIFFERENTLY.

Stats are STATS. There’s no EQUALIZER FACTOR. At least not in the record books.

Kelly’s 54-9 is still what it is even as many prefer to view him as some kind of ANNOYANCE now “thankfully” receding in the rearview mirror. Plus, let’s see if Freeman can match those numbers and if he does, will we DEVALUE his accomplishment as well, having been achieved in the same “SOFT SCHEDULE” environment?

I’m no Kelly lover, but he did RESURRECT ND’s program.

What was Kelly’s main defect in the eyes of many? He told ND TO SHOVE IT. Second, he didn’t win an NC at a time when his teams were OUTMANNED by their title and/or playoff opponents.

As for Ara, he was GREAT but FAR FROM PERFECT.

SOME PERSPECTIVE ON ARA:

During the great 64 REDEMPTION SEASON, ND DID NOT PLAY EVEN ONE RANKED TEAM.

Against USC, Ara went 3-6-2. Four of those losses were upsets; three by UNRANKED USC TEAMS; and two cost ND perfect seasons and, in all likelihood NC’s – 1964 and 1970. The 74 loss to USC was most likely the FOURTH MOST EMBARASSING in ND history – trailing only the 59-0 and 48-0 losses to Army and the 56-7 loss to Miami.

In that 74 game, ND went up 24-0 and still led 24-7 at halftime. Final score: USC 55 ND 24.

Against Purdue, Ara went 6-5. Four of those five losses were upsets, two of which came when ND was ranked #1. Another saw an UNRANKED Purdue team upset a #2 ND team. Finally, two of those upsets came against an ND DEFENDING NATIONAL CHAMPION.

Ara’s record against ALL RANKED OPPONENTS was 14-11-3 which converts when counting each tie as a win AND a loss to 17 and 14 or a winning percentage of 54.84%. Good? Mediocre? Take your pick. But CERTAINLY NOT WORLD BEATING.

Of course, we know that Ara won TWO NC’s and came quite close on two other occasions – BUT FOR THOSE TWO FINAL-GAME UPSETS BY UNRANKED USC TEAMS. And we also know of all of BRIAN KELLY’S NUMEROUS FAILINGS AND BLUNDERS TOO LENGTHY TO LIST HERE.

But to say that Kelly doesn’t even deserve his name mentioned alongside Ara’s gives Ara FAR TOO MUCH CREDIT and Kelly, TOO LITTLE. Trouble is, Ara has achieved MYTHICAL STATUS and is viewed as a FOOTBALL SAINT. Add to it that as a person he was in many ways Kelly’s antithesis, and it becomes all too easy to dismiss Kelly as some sort of BAD ACTOR.

It isn’t true. And my own sense is that Ara would be the FIRST to acknowledge the ENORMITY of good Brian Kelly did for ND’s football program.

You bring up a lot of valid points. Very thought out post. Winning not one but 2 NC’s will bring you a lot of mulligans. BK in my humble opinion is a Honda accord. Not flashy but very reliable. His stubbornness caused the Irish a couple of wins. What was the game on him going for 2? Northwestern? Also it’s one thing to say listen Irish nation I want to leave. I’m burnt out here in South Bend but I need a change of scenery. The way he did it is going to have Irish fans cheering for his failures. I think Buck Showalter is a very good manager but he’s never won. He resurrected the orioles & yanks but he never won. Also the schedules of today are easier to win 8/9 games compared to yesteryear. I think all of CFB does it. Why kill urself all season when you can play 2 tough games & be BCS bound. I get it.

 

[john0gaunt]

What was Kelly’s main defect in the eyes of many? He told ND TO SHOVE IT.

I don't agree with this 443. Kelly's main defect was he was not likable. It's a personality thing. His players didn't like him and none have anything positive to say about him. He was never popular with fans. The good players ALL left early, as soon as they could.

Freeman, if nothing else, is a likable, personable guy who seems to be loved by his players. Just like with Lou, it shows.

 

[ivan brunetti]

I don't agree with this 443. Kelly's main defect was he was not likable. It's a personality thing. His players didn't like him and none have anything positive to say about him. He was never popular with fans. The good players ALL left early, as soon as they could.

Freeman, if nothing else, is a likable, personable guy who seems to be loved by his players. Just like with Lou, it shows.

I generally agree, but if you win enough, people will like you.

Consider Saban. He is the prickliest MF in all of college football. But he has won so much, his fans and players find him "loveable".

 

[4-4-3]

You bring up a lot of valid points. Very thought out post. Winning not one but 2 NC’s will bring you a lot of mulligans. BK in my humble opinion is a Honda accord. Not flashy but very reliable. His stubbornness caused the Irish a couple of wins. What was the game on him going for 2? Northwestern? Also it’s one thing to say listen Irish nation I want to leave. I’m burnt out here in South Bend but I need a change of scenery. The way he did it is going to have Irish fans cheering for his failures. I think Buck Showalter is a very good manager but he’s never won. He resurrected the orioles & yanks but he never won. Also the schedules of today are easier to win 8/9 games compared to yesteryear. I think all of CFB does it. Why kill urself all season when you can play 2 tough games & be BCS bound. I get it.

I see Kelly's 54-9 stretch as a DEFINING ACHIEVMENT.

Ara's best, with only three tough opponents year-in and year-out -- USC, MSU and Purdue -- was 47-8 between 70 and 74 and at a time when the latter two were more BEATABLE than in the 60's.

I'm not sure ND will EVER see anyone match Holtz's best 5-year stretch of 64-9 between 88 and 93. And, barring SOME MIRACLE, that includes MARCUS FREEMAN.

But my point is, no matter what else Kelly did or didn't do, he won 54 of 63 games against plenty of DECENT teams, winning games against teams he would earlier have lost to and finishing STRONG at ND.

And I didn't see him as BURNED OUT. I saw him as realizing he would NEVER HAVE THE HORSES to win an NC at ND. So, he opted for a place where he thought he could do it. Will he? Maybe. But that's a very tough conference to play in, and the ODDS, I believe, are against it.

As for Showalter, take a closer look. In 93, he won 88 games in his second season. That was the first Yankee winning season since 1988. In 94, when the strike came, the Yankees were in FIRST PLACE, six games ahead and clearly the team to beat. The 95 season started late, the Yanks slumped, but they then finished strong and made the playoffs.

Despite almost beating a terrific Mariner team containing among others, Edgar Martinez and Ken Griffey, Jr., Steinbrenner FIRED Showalter simply for losing that series. Just as he'd fired Dick Howser in 1980 after the Yanks had been swept in the playoffs by the Royals. To Steinbrenner, that the Yanks had won 103 games under Howser in his FIRST MANAGERIAL SEASON meant nothing.

The team that Torre inherited? It was Buck's and built by Gene Michael. We'll never know what Showalter might have done with it. Steinbrenner was always impatient. Had Torre not won in 96, he'd have GOTTEN THE ROCKET as well.

 

[deadirishpoet]

I see Kelly's 54-9 stretch as a DEFINING ACHIEVMENT.

Ara's best, with only three tough opponents year-in and year-out -- USC, MSU and Purdue -- was 47-8 between 70 and 74 and at a time when the latter two were more BEATABLE than in the 60's.

I'm not sure ND will EVER see anyone match Holtz's best 5-year stretch of 64-9 between 88 and 93. And, barring SOME MIRACLE, that includes MARCUS FREEMAN.

But my point is, no matter what else Kelly did or didn't do, he won 54 of 63 games against plenty of DECENT teams, winning games against teams he would earlier have lost to and finishing STRONG at ND.

And I didn't see him as BURNED OUT. I saw him as realizing he would NEVER HAVE THE HORSES to win an NC at ND. So, he opted for a place where he thought he could do it. Will he? Maybe. But that's a very tough conference to play in, and the ODDS, I believe, are against it.

As for Showalter, take a closer look. In 93, he won 88 games in his second season. That was the first Yankee winning season since 1988. In 94, when the strike came, the Yankees were in FIRST PLACE, six games ahead and clearly the team to beat. The 95 season started late, the Yanks slumped, but they then finished strong and made the playoffs.

Despite almost beating a terrific Mariner team containing among others, Edgar Martinez and Ken Griffey, Jr., Steinbrenner FIRED Showalter simply for losing that series. Just as he'd fired Dick Howser in 1980 after the Yanks had been swept in the playoffs by the Royals. To Steinbrenner, that the Yanks had won 103 games under Howser in his FIRST MANAGERIAL SEASON meant nothing.

The team that Torre inherited? It was Buck's and built by Gene Michael. We'll never know what Showalter might have done with it. Steinbrenner was always impatient. Had Torre not won in 96, he'd have GOTTEN THE ROCKET as well.

To Hell with the Yankees ..........
Signed disgruntled Mets fan

 

[francade]

All the long winded revisionist history spinning from this poster won’t change what we all experienced (if we’re old enough). There’s no comparison between the two in any way: success, big game wins, status as the premier program of the sport, etc… and last but not least, the person they both were & are.

 

[Harpo Marxist]

Even after being called out by the media...and countless repeats of Kelly's comments "we're going to go beat the heck out of Florida State"....Kelly still denies saying it. Ara would never have denied saying it if he did...he would have apologized for not delivering on it. If I shook Ara's hand...I wouldn't want to wash it....With Kelly, I could not wait to wash it.

 

[HarlemIrish]

Even after being called out by the media...and countless repeats of Kelly's comments "we're going to go beat the heck out of Florida State"....Kelly still denies saying it. Ara would never have denied saying it if he did...he would have apologized for not delivering on it. If I shook Ara's hand...I wouldn't want to wash it....With Kelly, I could wait to wash it.

😂😂😂

 

[HarlemIrish]

I see Kelly's 54-9 stretch as a DEFINING ACHIEVMENT.

Ara's best, with only three tough opponents year-in and year-out -- USC, MSU and Purdue -- was 47-8 between 70 and 74 and at a time when the latter two were more BEATABLE than in the 60's.

I'm not sure ND will EVER see anyone match Holtz's best 5-year stretch of 64-9 between 88 and 93. And, barring SOME MIRACLE, that includes MARCUS FREEMAN.

But my point is, no matter what else Kelly did or didn't do, he won 54 of 63 games against plenty of DECENT teams, winning games against teams he would earlier have lost to and finishing STRONG at ND.

And I didn't see him as BURNED OUT. I saw him as realizing he would NEVER HAVE THE HORSES to win an NC at ND. So, he opted for a place where he thought he could do it. Will he? Maybe. But that's a very tough conference to play in, and the ODDS, I believe, are against it.

As for Showalter, take a closer look. In 93, he won 88 games in his second season. That was the first Yankee winning season since 1988. In 94, when the strike came, the Yankees were in FIRST PLACE, six games ahead and clearly the team to beat. The 95 season started late, the Yanks slumped, but they then finished strong and made the playoffs.

Despite almost beating a terrific Mariner team containing among others, Edgar Martinez and Ken Griffey, Jr., Steinbrenner FIRED Showalter simply for losing that series. Just as he'd fired Dick Howser in 1980 after the Yanks had been swept in the playoffs by the Royals. To Steinbrenner, that the Yanks had won 103 games under Howser in his FIRST MANAGERIAL SEASON meant nothing.

The team that Torre inherited? It was Buck's and built by Gene Michael. We'll never know what Showalter might have done with it. Steinbrenner was always impatient. Had Torre not won in 96, he'd have GOTTEN THE ROCKET as well.

Buck inherited a pretty good Mets team?

 

[deadirishpoet]

Buck inherited a pretty good Mets team?

Agree to a point and then lost it
He did get manager of the year in 2022, but knockout early in the pennant race this year in stunning fashion.
Eppler,Napoli, and Showalter will need to replace what was lost from 2022 inorder to get back to 2015 strength

 

[4-4-3]

I don't agree with this 443. Kelly's main defect was he was not likable. It's a personality thing. His players didn't like him and none have anything positive to say about him. He was never popular with fans. The good players ALL left early, as soon as they could.

Freeman, if nothing else, is a likable, personable guy who seems to be loved by his players. Just like with Lou, it shows.

Fair enough. I won't argue that Kelly was either the PEOPLE'S CHOICE or the PLAYERS' CHOICE.

But having worked for a number of years for A RESULTS-ONLY billionaire financial tyrant and his equally overbearing progeny, the LIKEABILITY ISSUE has never been a major concern of mine. If the DEVIL is the coach, you PLAY FOR THE DEVIL.

Others such as yourself will disagree with this, but I don't think that the ANIMUS towards Kelly would be as POINTED had he won games he wasn't LIKELY to have won, given the talent disparities that existed throughout his tenure. But then, who is the average fan going to blame -- ND's MORE RESTRICTIVE APPROACH or the HEAD COACH? And if he's an all-business guy who SIPS THE ND KOOL AID only sparingly, it will be the COACH.

Brian Kelly approached the job as a PROFESSIONAL not a SOCIAL WORKER for MILLENNIALS. He was out of touch with both ND and CURRENT SOCIAL ATTITUDES on how best to handle young people. To me, I'm not sure that's even a negative.

But I WILL argue THIS. Had he remained at ND and continued to perform as he had over the his last five years, the current animosity towards him WOULD NOT EXIST TO THIS DEGREE. In fact, many regard Brian Kelly as having INSULTED ND. And to that cohort, that's not only UNFORGIVABLE, but verging on BLASPHEMOUS.

Any time ANYONE who is integral to a group leaves, there is SOME SENSE OF INJURY among those left behind. And given the HYPER-SENSITIVITY and HYPER-LOYALTY of many ND fans, that sense of INJURY has only grown more noticeable.

 

[4-4-3]

To Hell with the Yankees ..........
Signed disgruntled Mets fan

Good luck with Buck. He's a good BASEBALL MAN.

I hope he delivers for y'all, now that Verlander and Scherzer are gone.

 

[francade]

Both his leaving in the manner he did & the never winning a title (or even showing up when we got there) in 12 years is what’s unforgivable. It’s all encompassing w/ Kelly so no need to narrow it down to one thing. As for the “talent disparities, I think it’s minimal & great coaches could win w/ it. He gets credit for bringing us back to respectability, but any good coach could’ve at that point. He’s good, not great.

 

[4-4-3]

Buck inherited a pretty good Mets team?

Maybe on paper. Though it didn't turn out that well.

But the 95 Yankees had a terrific roster: Cone, O'Neill, Mattingly, Petite, Boggs, Black Jack McDowell, Bernie Williams, Mariano Rivera, Jimmy Key, Ruben Sierra.

FOUR GUYS WHO WON BATTING TITLES: O'Neill, Mattingly, Boggs and Williams. Boggs won FIVE himself (in 83 as a rookie and from 85 through 88). Hit .342 in 95 for the Yankees in his 13th big league season.

I'd say Showalter inherited nothing like the talent on the Mets that Torre inherited from him.