You said BK teams were well oiled machines. He left ND for better players with less academic pressure. And yet every criticism we had about his tenure hear played out tonight. Sucks to suck.
FSU 45. LSU 24. 8 years and $100mill!
- Thread starter theskibro
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A lot of celebrating going on over a single game. For all we know FSU might be one of the best teams in the country low key and LSU goes on to punish the rest of their schedule.
All we know right now is he got taken to the woodshed in game 1...
And you said the acc sucks though?
Yes, we WILL see.
As the comments in this thread indicate, people were not satisfied with Kelly -- despite his going 54-9 over his last 5 seasons. What will Freeman be regarded as having accomplished if he doesn't AT LEAST EQUAL THAT? But then, that's an 85.7% winning percentage and roughly as good as any multi-year run that Ara had.
Who will wager that five seasons into the Freeman era, he will have equaled or exceeded Kelly's win percentage during his last five years? Seems like a stretch to me. But then, ISN'T IT WHAT MANY EXPECT? Yet, if it doesn't happen, will Freeman be as villified as Kelly? Or even more so?
If ND plays poorly against NC State -- or, God forbid, loses -- the wolves will start circling. I don't expect ND to lose, but then it's football, so NO ONE KNOWS.
Good luck to Marcus Freeman who, so far, looks like an AVERAGE TO GOOD coach. But in much the same way as Deion Sanders allegedly encouraged Eddie George to view the job -- AS A CEO. Which means Freeman's staff will be critical. So far, it has pushed the right buttons, but only in EXHIBITION GAMES. Now, it gets SERIOUS.
Another thing to keep in mind is that many have assumed that this can only be an UPSET-FREE SEASON. And that if ND loses, it can only happen at the hands of one of three teams. Not NECESSARILY true. It can happen.
Then there's the IRONIC ELEMENT. Teams under coaches as different as Devine, Faust, Davie, Willingham and Weis could EACH lose to a team like NC State and then come back and beat one like OSU. Saw it happen many times. Lose to an "inferior" opponent, then beat a "superior" one the following week.
NOTHING IS WRITTEN.
What evidence do you have for this?
In Freeman's first full class at ND he finished with the 12th ranking (2023)
In his second class (this year), he's likely to finish somewhere between 15th-20th.
He's recruiting on par (if not slightly worse) than what BK did here on aggregate.
ND doesn't have the flexibility to patch holes with the transfer portal to the extent other programs can either, so losses on the recruiting trail hurt even more.
Then you add in Kelly's track record, experience, executive skills running a program, etc. and ND has taken a huge step backwards in terms of its head coach.
Don't get me wrong, Kelly needed to go, he clearly hit his ceiling at ND, but the MF hire hasn't done anything to materially improve the outlook of ND so far.
Is it possible that MF materializes into the next Dabo Swinney? Sure, he hasn't proven that he can't yet, but odds are heavily stacked against that outcome.
MFs ND tenure has been a big disappointment up to this point (largely because of the lack of results on the recruiting trail combined with his total inexperience), and those losses on the trail WILL cost ND victories down the road.
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You make no sense
Why would you compare last 5 years of Kelly to 1st 5 years of Freeman?
A fair comparison would be 1st 5 years of Kelly vs 1st 5 years of Freeman
Looks like you want to cherry pick to make Kelly look better than he was
I'm interested to see -- REGARDLESS OF RANKINGS -- if the players Freeman gets WORK FOR HIM better than the players Kelly got WORKED FOR HIM.
Or NOT.
Time will tell on that one. But FIT is an important factor. A lot of coaches could have done a lot with DAYNE CRIST, but, apparently, not Brian Kelly who preferred Tommy Rees.
For him, Rees was the BETTER FIT.
Fit matters when you get to a point of diminished returns (like say, where Alabama, Georgia, and OSU are recruiting wise). When you have 3 programs recruiting top 100 players to a 5:1 ratio that you are recruiting top 100 players at, fit doesn't matter so much, and you just need better players period.
You're missing MY POINT.
Yes, that's right, it may not be a fair comparison, but do you honestly think ND people will wait TEN YEARS for Freeman to prove that he's Kelly's equal? When one dislikes Kelly as much as MANY POSTERS HERE DO, they expect FREEMAN'S -- to them -- OBVIOUSLY GREATER VIRTUES to be made MANIFEST immediately.
What I'm saying is that Brian Kelly's recent peformance is being undervalued at the same time UNREALISTIC NEAR-TERM EXPECTATIONS are being being placed on Marcus Freeman. But then, for many, Kelly must be OUTED as the DEMONIC FORCE he was. And the so-called author of so much disappointment, when, in fact, he was largely no more than a stiff and somewhat unlikeable guy.
Yet, among college coaches, he's greatly respected. And that includes Saban.
Rather than exceed Kelly, let's see how well Freeman does MERELY MAINTAINING THE CONSISTENCY of Kelly's last five years. That's what people want. And NOT whether he's merely as good a coach as Kelly was in his first five years. Plus, don't forget what was turned over to Kelly vs. what Kelly turned over to Freeman. Kelly had to REBUILD. Freeman "merely" has to keep it going.
Good points all around.
I really think the goal with the Marcus Freeman hire was to keep the BK program intact as much as possible (philosophy, training, coaching staff, etc.) but elevate the level of talent via the recruiting trail with Marcus Freeman.
Unfortunately part 2 of that plan hasn't been going well up to this point because the recruiting has stagnated if not gotten worse, and the jury is still out on whether Marcus Freeman can keep the regular season wins piling up like BK did (albeit against a weak ACC/modern schedule at Notre Dame).
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No argument. ND DOES NEED BETTER PLAYERS and of the same caliber as the teams ahead of it. Otherwise, it will NEVER beat the best consistently. It will remain OVERMATCHED.
Still, most programs can at least do SOMEWHAT BETTER when they get players who not only better fit their system but also their coach's temperament. I think that was particularly true at Navy under the coach who just left. That team consistently punched above its weight and, for me, the reason was a kind of AFFINITY between the coach's approach and the players who played for him. There was BUY-IN.
In ND's case, it was unfortunate that the kinds of QB's Kelly liked -- ones who were better fits for HIM -- often lacked a dimension. Part of that was simply because he couldn't get the very best QB"s to come to ND -- though, like you, I don't see that as his fault -- but also because he ran a kind of herky-jerky offense with a lot of bells and whistles which guys like Rees and Book were better at navigating. Which despite their lack of raw talent vs. that of a Crist or a Jurkovic mattered NOT to Kelly.
Rees and Book GOT KELLY'S TEMPERAMENT and he, theirs. Which then made it easier to ABSORB his system.
What I'm sensing with Freeman is that MANY PLAYERS seem to GET HIM. And that in itself -- while it won't propel ND to an NC necessarily -- may provide its own measure of value and even help the team PUNCH ABOVE ITS WEIGHT.
We'll see.
That said, I still seriously question the idea that Marcus Freeman will outperform Brian Kelly at ND.
Again, we'll see.
I think the one thing that stands out is the fact Kelly left for “ greener pastures “. His knock on ND was they are too “ buttoned down”. He also eluded to the fact he can get better players. So we all know his record at ND against top ten teams. It’s not good. Last night was a big game on a big stage and his team ( with the better players) got their rear ends kicked. People can have their opinions on him good , bad or indifferent. But when you lose like that after saying the things you said, you lose credibility. Fact.
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BK is a compiler not a coach who won memorable games. I chuckled seeing his name mentioned with the great Ara. Any competent coach can win 8.5 /9 wins in todays scheduling.
Word is out, he's a D=bag. Kids don't want to play for him
First of all, we can all agree BKs abrasive New England personality is just wrong for ND and his record against top 10 opponents speaks for itself.
That being said, the guy is a 2 time national coach of the year and none of us would have guessed that the Irish would be a playoff contender when he took the job.
Time to let go.
Marcus is 100% more likable. Time will tell how he is remembered
That being said, the guy is a 2 time national coach of the year and none of us would have guessed that the Irish would be a playoff contender when he took the job.
Time to let go.
Marcus is 100% more likable. Time will tell how he is remembered
What you stated here sounds all too familiar. How many times have we heard that while Kelly was coaching ND? Quite often, it comes down to coaching and putting the team in a position to win, and coaching the team to be disciplined.
We never had this many good young RBs and WRs on the team at one time under Kelly, as we do now. We have 5 capable RBs right now. Not to mention Freeman also brought in a star transfer QB. So I see improvement at the skill positions, at least.
Kelly was a good program builder but I disagree he couldn’t get “his qb”.He couldn’t develop the ones he got. His quarterbacks always seem to regress . He was not a qb guru like people claim. Even his best qb”s like book would scram outta the pocket as soon as there was a hint of pressure. Even last night his QB Daniels was the same thing. World of difference compared to Hartman.
Every year we watch teams across the country with less talent and less star power trot out quarterbacks that have been developed properly. Hartman is a perfect example. Jmo.
Every year we watch teams across the country with less talent and less star power trot out quarterbacks that have been developed properly. Hartman is a perfect example. Jmo.
“Part of that was simply because he couldn't get the very best QB"s to come to ND -- though, like you, I don't see that as his fault -- but also because he ran a kind of herky-jerky offense with a lot of bells and whistles which guys like Rees and Book were better at navigating. Which despite their lack of raw talent vs. that of a Crist or a Jurkovic mattered NOT to Kelly.”
Stop comparing rees w/ book as players. They were nowhere close in style, talent, ability or overall team success.
Stop comparing rees w/ book as players. They were nowhere close in style, talent, ability or overall team success.
Well said, the difference last night like in most of Kelly’s big game losses was the play of the two opposing QBs … one was making plays under pressure the other was missing them.
Despite all the BK bashing we know he can organize and put together a team, they are loaded with talent and will be favored heavily most weeks.
Pretty obvious that Kelly was concerned about his team getting too emotionally high and gave one of his stirring halftime talks that put his players to sleep; while Norvel emphasized his defense’ dominant goal line stops and challenged the rest of his team to play to that level. FSU came out fired up and more disciplined and quickly grabbed momentum, and Kelly was rewarded by not having to worry about his team getting too emotional. Steady as she goes Kelly shows up again at prime time against a top ten team.
He was left with a few holes. I think WR was a huge hole and still is. Would have like to have seen MF grab some of the players we saw at Colorado and FSU. Those were all portal people. Even bring in one deep threat and we are really stacked. If your bringing in Sam, give him one stud. Thats about my only beef.
Kelly was a very experienced head coach when he came here and that 54-9 record didn't start until his 8th year. Are we going to give Marcus 8yrs before we starting comparing him to Kelly? How about Ok St and his first year are mulligans and we start keeping track this year. He is 2-0. He needs to go 52 - 9 over the next 4.8 yrs.
I watched Kelly’s post game presser. To his credit he said all the right things. Actually saw a side of him that was appealing and human. Good for him. Wish him well
If Marcus freeman wins us a national championship i would consider freeman the better coach. Regardless of record. Jmo.
I think FSU is a on a mission this year and I think LSU will be just fine as well. FSU's schedule plays out pretty nicely and the Clemson matchup is mid-September and I don't forsee a blowout on either side in that game. Let's just say they lost to Clemson, they could win out the remainder of the schedule and still play for the ACC title game since there are no more divisions in the conference.
Clemson has a tougher schedule than FSU. They have FSU, Notre Dame and UNC on their schedule. Now, they do get all three of those matchups at home. But the ND and UNC games aren't until November.
Kelly’s story is almost written, this is his last chapter, and will determine if he’s more of a Don James or a Don Nehlen.
Freeman on the other hand appears to just be getting started.
I see it MUCH DIFFERENTLY.
Stats are STATS. There’s no EQUALIZER FACTOR. At least not in the record books.
Kelly’s 54-9 is still what it is even as many prefer to view him as some kind of ANNOYANCE now “thankfully” receding in the rearview mirror. Plus, let’s see if Freeman can match those numbers and if he does, will we DEVALUE his accomplishment as well, having been achieved in the same “SOFT SCHEDULE” environment?
I’m no Kelly lover, but he did RESURRECT ND’s program.
What was Kelly’s main defect in the eyes of many? He told ND TO SHOVE IT. Second, he didn’t win an NC at a time when his teams were OUTMANNED by their title and/or playoff opponents.
As for Ara, he was GREAT but FAR FROM PERFECT.
SOME PERSPECTIVE ON ARA:
During the great 64 REDEMPTION SEASON, ND DID NOT PLAY EVEN ONE RANKED TEAM.
Against USC, Ara went 3-6-2. Four of those losses were upsets; three by UNRANKED USC TEAMS; and two cost ND perfect seasons and, in all likelihood NC’s – 1964 and 1970. The 74 loss to USC was most likely the FOURTH MOST EMBARASSING in ND history – trailing only the 59-0 and 48-0 losses to Army and the 56-7 loss to Miami.
In that 74 game, ND went up 24-0 and still led 24-7 at halftime. Final score: USC 55 ND 24.
Against Purdue, Ara went 6-5. Four of those five losses were upsets, two of which came when ND was ranked #1. Another saw an UNRANKED Purdue team upset a #2 ND team. Finally, two of those upsets came against an ND DEFENDING NATIONAL CHAMPION.
Ara’s record against ALL RANKED OPPONENTS was 14-11-3 which converts when counting each tie as a win AND a loss to 17 and 14 or a winning percentage of 54.84%. Good? Mediocre? Take your pick. But CERTAINLY NOT WORLD BEATING.
Of course, we know that Ara won TWO NC’s and came quite close on two other occasions – BUT FOR THOSE TWO FINAL-GAME UPSETS BY UNRANKED USC TEAMS. And we also know of all of BRIAN KELLY’S NUMEROUS FAILINGS AND BLUNDERS TOO LENGTHY TO LIST HERE.
But to say that Kelly doesn’t even deserve his name mentioned alongside Ara’s gives Ara FAR TOO MUCH CREDIT and Kelly, TOO LITTLE. Trouble is, Ara has achieved MYTHICAL STATUS and is viewed as a FOOTBALL SAINT. Add to it that as a person he was in many ways Kelly’s antithesis, and it becomes all too easy to dismiss Kelly as some sort of BAD ACTOR.
It isn’t true. And my own sense is that Ara would be the FIRST to acknowledge the ENORMITY of good Brian Kelly did for ND’s football program.
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