From 30 seconds away..... to now being banished. How quickly it can turn.

[nemeth#5]

Seems like we forgot that we not only went to the NC 4 years ago, but we were literally 30 seconds away from being one of four teams in the playoff last year.

Now, we have a horrible year aided by bad luck, bad coaching, suspensions, etc...... and everyone is ready to burn the HC at the stake and hire the new flavor of the month.

I get that ND deserves better, and there is no excuse for only winning 4 games (with our easiest schedule I can ever remember)..... but there is no guarantee that any coach out there could do a better job. I think he deserves one more year, and if there are not vast improvements within the defense and special teams.... ND should explore their other options for a head coach.

Just my thought, please add my to the witch hunt now.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/recap?gameId=400757090

 

[Java65]

Gene Chizik actually won a NC so why don't we hire him? Also, we were 3 plays away from losing 2 or 3 more games last year.

You are correct, there is no guarantee that any coach would do better but there are dozens that could do just as well. Without Manti Kelly's record isn't much better than Charlie's.

 

[nemeth#5]

Gene Chizik actually won a NC so why don't we hire him? Also, we were 3 plays away from losing 2 or 3 more games last year.

You are correct, there is no guarantee that any coach would do better but there are dozens that could do just as well. Without Manti Kelly's record isn't much better than Charlie's.

Ya, and without Clausen/Quinn Weis's record is somehow worse....

 

[stu4don]

without joe montana dan devine never gets his natty or the 49ers their Super Bowl... we could do this forever....

 

[Java65]

Ya, and without Clausen/Quinn Weis's record is somehow worse....

The difference being that Quinn and Clausen were very good player but not nearly elite and there were probably other QBs in CFB that you could have replaced them with with and gotten similar results.

Manti was arguably one of the greatest defensive players in ND history, the most decorated player in CFB history and, IMO, carried that team in many games.

All that said what happened is fact. Kelly gets all the credit for winning 12 games that year. He also gets the blame for the team getting embarrassed against Bama. He won 10 games last year and he gets all the credit for that. He lost 3 games and he's responsible for that too. You can't try to make a case for him by handing him games he lost.

 

[nemeth#5]

The difference being that Quinn and Clausen were very good player but not nearly elite and there were probably other QBs in CFB that you could have replaced them with with and gotten similar results.

Manti was arguably one of the greatest defensive players in ND history, the most decorated player in CFB history and, IMO, carried that team in many games.

All that said what happened is fact. Kelly gets all the credit for winning 12 games that year. He also gets the blame for the team getting embarrassed against Bama. He won 10 games last year and he gets all the credit for that. He lost 3 games and he's responsible for that too. You can't try to make a case for him by handing him games he lost.

My point is you said that without Manti, Kelly is very similar to CW? I am saying that is a bit aggressive.

Just thought it was interesting how no one is bringing up that we had a legit shot at making the final 4 last year WITH a backup QB and RB.

 

[Java65]

without joe montana dan devine never gets his natty or the 49ers their Super Bowl... we could do this forever....

You miss the point. The OP was trying to make the case that Kelly was better than his record because "we were 3 plays away" from being in the playoffs.

If he wants to play the "What if" game, I was pointing out that "What if" he didn't have Manti then his 12-1 season is probably a 9-4 season.

 

[Java65]

My point is you said that without Manti, Kelly is very similar to CW? I am saying that is a bit aggressive.

Just thought it was interesting how no one is bringing up that we had a legit shot at making the final 4 last year WITH a backup QB and RB.

.. But he didn't. He didn't win those games. Like I said ND was 3 plays away from losing 2 or 3 more games... so can we now argue his 10-3 record wasn't as good? It was 10-3... IMO, that should be considered average at ND. Not bad but certainly not worthy of adulation.

 

[Walruzz]

without joe montana dan devine never gets his natty or the 49ers their Super Bowl... we could do this forever....

Let me try -

Without the peanut butter, it's just a jelly sandwich.....?

 

[T-bob75]

Its not just the record, its the man. He's the face of Notre Dame football and it is one ugly mug. I'm in the crowd of accepting Notre Dame will never again reach the levels of an Alabama on the football field. For me its about doing things the right way. I'd be perfectly content with 8-10 win seasons with the occasional New Years Bowl. Just as long as things were done the ND way.

Enter the smoke machines, crazy train, fake turf, jumbotron, shamrock series, etc. Combine this with the academic scandal, arrests, Kelly's sideline antics (the David Grimes thing was deplorable), and his lack of accountability on ANYTHING. It seems like ND is going with a win at all costs attitude yet they go 4-8? I'll give him some credit for 2012 but that season was a lot of smoke and mirrors, similar to Ty's 2002 campaign. The title game was evidence of that. Then there's the issue with him looking all over the place to leave. The guy doesn't even want to be here. His special teams are terrible, defense terrible, and his game day coaching is terrible. His strength and conditioning program is a joke.

Nemeth, I understand what you're saying but for me it goes much deeper than the 4-8 record. This isn't the Notre Dame i grew up with nor the one I will root for under Kelly's leadership. Guy has to go.

 

[nemeth#5]

Its not just the record, its the man. He's the face of Notre Dame football and it is one ugly mug. I'm in the crowd of accepting Notre Dame will never again reach the levels of an Alabama on the football field. For me its about doing things the right way. I'd be perfectly content with 8-10 win seasons with the occasional New Years Bowl. Just as long as things were done the ND way.

Enter the smoke machines, crazy train, fake turf, jumbotron, shamrock series, etc. Combine this with the academic scandal, arrests, Kelly's sideline antics (the David Grimes thing was deplorable), and his lack of accountability on ANYTHING. It seems like ND is going with a win at all costs attitude yet they go 4-8? I'll give him some credit for 2012 but that season was a lot of smoke and mirrors, similar to Ty's 2002 campaign. The title game was evidence of that. Then there's the issue with him looking all over the place to leave. The guy doesn't even want to be here. His special teams are terrible, defense terrible, and his game day coaching is terrible. His strength and conditioning program is a joke.

Nemeth, I understand what you're saying but for me it goes much deeper than the 4-8 record. This isn't the Notre Dame i grew up with nor the one I will root for under Kelly's leadership. Guy has to go.

All good points, and I agree...... I guess I just dont think the grass is greener on the other side. What are our options? Fleck? Some dude who is passionate and won for a couple years at a MAC school? Get real? You can talk yourself into thinking he, or anyone is the next Saban.... but I don't buy it.

 

[T-bob75]

I don't have an answer for other options. What is ND willing to pay? Who is interested? I personally want a home run hire but if that isn't possible you're just going to have to take a chance. Is Fleck the next Meyer? Who knows, but it be a chance I'd be willing to take rather than staying with the status quo. I have my favorites but thats not the point. I'm just not a fan of keeping a below average coach (which is what Kelly is at this point) just because there isn't a sure fire hire out there. He's 15-15 in his last 30 games and 11-14 against ranked opponents. In the big business of college football its "what have you done for me lately" and Kelly hasn't done much.

 

[IrishBlessings]

My point is you said that without Manti, Kelly is very similar to CW? I am saying that is a bit aggressive.

Just thought it was interesting how no one is bringing up that we had a legit shot at making the final 4 last year WITH a backup QB and RB.

A back up RB ? Kid is in the NFL. I know of another 120 college football teams that would of loved to have our back up RB last year.

Also, our back up QB ? Who had one of the best seasons for a QB in ND history and who is being touted as a future NFLer as well.

Pull your head out of the sand.

 

[Telx1]

Well, a lot has happened since we played for the NC. Just on record alone, I read that we are 21-19 since then against Power five Conference opponents. That's a four year pathetic record that should be unacceptable to all ND football fans; and yes, that alone would get the HC fired at most if not all major football universities. Throw in the ubiquitous poor fundamentals, the continuous poor play of special teams, the BVG hire and retention beyond reasonable, the inexplicable game planning and in game decisions as in Texas and NC St this year alone, the debacle of not naming a starting QB before the season and this impact on morale and on field leadership, etc... and it's difficult to understand any argument that supports keeping Kelly. If we do, I'll be cheering for his success next year like I have every year, but I would much prefer to be cheering for the success of a new HC capable of bringing some toughness and strong fundamentals and a dominant running game back into ND football.

 

[Java65]

All good points, and I agree...... I guess I just dont think the grass is greener on the other side. What are our options? Fleck? Some dude who is passionate and won for a couple years at a MAC school? Get real? You can talk yourself into thinking he, or anyone is the next Saban.... but I don't buy it.

Fleck is just a guy that people on the message board throw out. Who were Lou or Ara before ND hired them? Not really household names. Here is what you need to look for.

* HC experience
* A guy that has extensive experience in college as a coordinator and/or HC.
* His program did better under him that historically. So if a guy wins 8 games a year at a place that used to win 4 or 5, that's key
* It would be nice if he had success at multiple stops and not just a "one hit wonder"

It's really not that hard. The problem is that Kelly looks so damn good because the 3 guys before him did not meet the above criteria. Sure some coaches are far better than others but if you get a capable HC with experience I have no doubts that they can be reasonably successful.

 

[nemeth#5]

Fleck is just a guy that people on the message board throw out. Who were Lou or Ara before ND hired them? Not really household names. Here is what you need to look for.

* HC experience
* A guy that has extensive experience in college as a coordinator and/or HC.
* His program did better under him that historically. So if a guy wins 8 games a year at a place that used to win 4 or 5, that's key
* It would be nice if he had success at multiple stops and not just a "one hit wonder"

It's really not that hard. The problem is that Kelly looks so damn good because the 3 guys before him did not meet the above criteria. Sure some coaches are far better than others but if you get a capable HC with experience I have no doubts that they can be reasonably successful.

Using your criteria.... Kelly was a clear choice to hire.... and now you despise of him.

 

[IrishBlessings]

Using your criteria.... Kelly was a clear choice to hire.... and now you despise of him.

Your right at the time - he was a good choice from what was available. My first choice for ND was Chris Petersen - but, I do not know if he was even approached back then - people said he's at Boise - it doesn't translate, etc. Sound familiar to Fleck ?

For every turd who does well at a lower level program - there are some gems, i.e. Meyer from Bowling Green, Petersen from Boise, etc.

By all accounts - Petersen may of turned down ND if he was asked - but, how was he not approached ? - his success at Boise - at the time could of been argued was better than BK's -

Sometimes you have to keep trying for that GEM - from the lower tier program - i.e. Fleck.

But, w/ what has now transpired over the last 7 seasons - w/ BK looking for the NFL in 2012 (during a NT run ! ) and then again last season w/USC of all schools - and now again -

He doesn't even want to be at ND. He should of been terminated - yesterday !

Plus when you watch his teams play - 7 years of bad S.T. 5 years of bad defenses. 5 years of bad red zone offense. 7 years of not being able to gain a yard on 3rd 1 vs. tough teams.

7 years of bad game clock management - burning timeouts up in the first and third qtr.'s of each half.

He had 1 really good year w/ a very bad ending - and 1 other good year w/ also a very bad ending - out of 7 years.

He'd be fired already at any other school. He has gold horse shoes in his back pocket. He's deflected as good as any head coach has in recent memory. ND Admin has their head in the sand.

Yes - Now I do not care for him. Despise is a strong word - I just do not care for him as a coach or a leader of young men. ND can do better - much better.

It's time to give someone else a chance. Keep moving on - sooner or later - a GEM will come to the fore front for ND.

 

[twalsh]

without joe montana dan devine never gets his natty or the 49ers their Super Bowl... we could do this forever....

It goes way beyond that. Without Gary Forystek getting his bell rung right after entering the 1977 Purdue game, we don't win the 1977 national championship and its at least possible that nobody ever hears the name Joe Montana.

 

[twalsh]

Seems like we forgot that we not only went to the NC 4 years ago, but we were literally 30 seconds away from being one of four teams in the playoff last year.

We had a possible chance, but it's not at all a given that we were in at 11-1.

 

[Ara64]

If LSU had beaten ND the week before we lose to USC in 1970, I still wouldn't be miserable about that lose 46 years later. You are what your record says that you are guys. Luck plays into every season and this year ND had nothing but bad luck. "What if" is a part of the fabric of any sport.

 

[Java65]

Using your criteria.... Kelly was a clear choice to hire.... and now you despise of him.

I've said all along Kelly was a good hire and I don't despise him. I actually hold the administration more responsible.

Kelly was a good choice for ND and he took ND football up a level or two but that's as far as he was able to take them. His contract should never have been extended, he should have been gone after year 5 as every other ND coach except for the elite few that won a NC.

Kelly has many qualities that served him and ND well in raising the level of the program. He also has many deficiencies that make it impossible for him to take them to the next level. It only gets more difficult each year when you don't have sustained success which is why year 5 if you aren't 100% proven success its time to go. Win big in at least 3 of those 5 year, by that I mean you better have 10+ wins, or you are gone after year 5.

 

[NyyorkerND]

I've said all along Kelly was a good hire and I don't despise him. I actually hold the administration more responsible.

Kelly was a good choice for ND and he took ND football up a level or two but that's as far as he was able to take them. His contract should never have been extended, he should have been gone after year 5 as every other ND coach except for the elite few that won a NC.

Kelly has many qualities that served him and ND well in raising the level of the program. He also has many deficiencies that make it impossible for him to take them to the next level. It only gets more difficult each year when you don't have sustained success which is why year 5 if you aren't 100% proven success its time to go. Win big in at least 3 of those 5 year, by that I mean you better have 10+ wins, or you are gone after year 5.

If 3 coaches before went through the same issues maybe we should stop blaming coaches and think about the University as a whole. It's not a football power it's that simple. To become a footbal power you need 5-8 years of perennially being ranked in the top 10 and winning a natty or two. With having football be a top priority. Go back and check Nick's records at State or LSU before Bama. 34-21 and 48-16. Kelly's record at ND is 59-31 and 34-6 @ cinci (understandably in the big east). I'll give him next year and I see us winning 9 games minimum. But gone are the days of being a football power just get over that.

 

[perseverare]

If 3 coaches before went through the same issues maybe we should stop blaming coaches and think about the University as a whole. It's not a football power it's that simple. To become a footbal power you need 5-8 years of perennially being ranked in the top 10 and winning a natty or two. With having football be a top priority. Go back and check Nick's records at State or LSU before Bama. 34-21 and 48-16. Kelly's record at ND is 59-31 and 34-6 @ cinci (understandably in the big east). I'll give him next year and I see us winning 9 games minimum. But gone are the days of being a football power just get over that.

Ny

did u catch my reply the other day? (regret the testy retort)

 

[NyyorkerND]

Ny

did u catch my reply the other day? (regret the testy retort)

Yep I did Perse. No worries we're all passionate fans. I don't take that stuff personally it's a message board for our team.

 

[Java65]

If 3 coaches before went through the same issues maybe we should stop blaming coaches and think about the University as a whole. It's not a football power it's that simple. To become a footbal power you need 5-8 years of perennially being ranked in the top 10 and winning a natty or two. With having football be a top priority. Go back and check Nick's records at State or LSU before Bama. 34-21 and 48-16. Kelly's record at ND is 59-31 and 34-6 @ cinci (understandably in the big east). I'll give him next year and I see us winning 9 games minimum. But gone are the days of being a football power just get over that.

Again, the 3 coaches before him were poor hires. Boob had no HC experience, bad hire. Ty had HC experience but never really demonstrated success at Stanford, bad hire. Weis was the dumbest hire of all; no HC experience, no college experience. The 3 previous hires were failures before the ink was dry.

Kelly was a good hire that should have been gone after 5 years.

 

[NyyorkerND]

Again, the 3 coaches before him were poor hires. Boob had no HC experience, bad hire. Ty had HC experience but never really demonstrated success at Stanford, bad hire. Weis was the dumbest hire of all; no HC experience, no college experience. The 3 previous hires were failures before the ink was dry.

Kelly was a good hire that should have been gone after 5 years.

So next coach we hire tell him win a national championship in 3 years and win 10 plus games every year after that or your fired. Who would take that job that is a big name coach. That is what you're asking, be reasonable. Losing sucks, Kelly has 1 year to right the ship. I'm anxious to see how we turn in around. If we keep hiring to fire that's how you become irrelevant.

 

[Java65]

So next coach we hire tell him win a national championship in 3 years and win 10 plus games every year after that or your fired. Who would take that job that is a big name coach. That is what you're asking, be reasonable. Losing sucks, Kelly has 1 year to right the ship. I'm anxious to see how we turn in around. If we keep hiring to fire that's how you become irrelevant.

No you don't have to win a NC just not have 1 good year in 5. Again, big name coaches don't jump from one big program to another, it just doesn't happen.

This season isn't the lone reason Kelly should be fired. He should be fired because he in 7 years only 2 have been above average.

 

[NyyorkerND]

No you don't have to win a NC just not have 1 good year in 5. Again, big name coaches don't jump from one big program to another, it just doesn't happen.

This season isn't the lone reason Kelly should be fired. He should be fired because he in 7 years only 2 have been above average.

If making it to a national championship is the only thing that's considered a good season then there lies the problem in your analysis. I'm not concerned with record it's how the team plays. It's college not professional sports. I expect us to be a top 30 program with runs to the natty once every 5 or so years. You sound like you want to be in the playoffs every year and win a major bowl game every other year. Well sorry but that's not happening at ND anymore for reasons we've all exhausted. Now it can also be frustration too and that I understand.

 

[Java65]

If making it to a national championship is the only thing that's considered a good season then there lies the problem in your analysis. I'm not concerned with record it's how the team plays. It's college not professional sports. I expect us to be a top 30 program with runs to the natty once every 5 or so years. You sound like you want to be in the playoffs every year and win a major bowl game every other year. Well sorry but that's not happening at ND anymore for reasons we've all exhausted. Now it can also be frustration too and that I understand.

I never said I expect a NC or a playoff at all in 5 years. What I expect is in 3 of the five years the coach wins 10+ games. That doesn't mean he even makes the playoffs. I also expect that we play reasonably well in our bowl game and not get embarrassed every time we play a good team. Those are hardly excessive expectations.

 

[NyyorkerND]

So basically only 4 or 5 coaches in college football fit your criteria the last 5 or so years. I'll name them for you Stoops, Dabo, Saban, Meyer, and Jimbo. So yeah it does sound unrealistic we aren't a football power.

 

[end_23]

Seems like we forgot that we not only went to the NC 4 years ago, but we were literally 30 seconds away from being one of four teams in the playoff last year.

Now, we have a horrible year aided by bad luck, bad coaching, suspensions, etc...... and everyone is ready to burn the HC at the stake and hire the new flavor of the month.

I get that ND deserves better, and there is no excuse for only winning 4 games (with our easiest schedule I can ever remember)..... but there is no guarantee that any coach out there could do a better job. I think he deserves one more year, and if there are not vast improvements within the defense and special teams.... ND should explore their other options for a head coach.

Just my thought, please add my to the witch hunt now.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/recap?gameId=400757090

OU was getting the fourth spot even if ND beat Stanford. Not only should Kelly be fired for being a dbag, he should be fired for the loss to Stanford because of implementing a pathetic prevent defense in those final 30 seconds. That was a week after sweating out an ugly/unprepared win over a terrible BC team. That game was the cherry on top for ND being left out.

 

[end_23]

Seems like we forgot that we not only went to the NC 4 years ago, but we were literally 30 seconds away from being one of four teams in the playoff last year.

Now, we have a horrible year aided by bad luck, bad coaching, suspensions, etc...... and everyone is ready to burn the HC at the stake and hire the new flavor of the month.

I get that ND deserves better, and there is no excuse for only winning 4 games (with our easiest schedule I can ever remember)..... but there is no guarantee that any coach out there could do a better job. I think he deserves one more year, and if there are not vast improvements within the defense and special teams.... ND should explore their other options for a head coach.

Just my thought, please add my to the witch hunt now.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/recap?gameId=400757090

And don't people like you get it, yet? Kelly always comes up short. It's always, well we only lost by three, or we aren't getting blown out, and winning is hard.

Since when did ND become the school that celebrates getting to and getting pounded in big bowl games?

 

[Bodizephax]

All good points, and I agree...... I guess I just dont think the grass is greener on the other side. What are our options? Fleck? Some dude who is passionate and won for a couple years at a MAC school? Get real? You can talk yourself into thinking he, or anyone is the next Saban.... but I don't buy it.

Any coach would be better than Kelly. Here is why.
Davies fired----Ty Willingham promptly wins 10 games.
Willingham fired-- Weis wins 9 and then 10.
Weis fired-----------Kelly wins 12 in his third year.
*** If you are still not doing it after year three fire the coach and get new blood !
Row the Damn boat !

 

[IrishBlessings]

OU was getting the fourth spot even if ND beat Stanford. Not only should Kelly be fired for being a dbag, he should be fired for the loss to Stanford because of implementing a pathetic prevent defense in those final 30 seconds. That was a week after sweating out an ugly/unprepared win over a terrible BC team. That game was the cherry on top for ND being left out.

BK was more concerned about taking pictures in the Boston Red Sox dugout. ND was not prepared to play BC that night. Got fortunate as heck to win that game vs. a terrible BC team.

The more I think about games he's coached the more pissed I get at Jack for letting Trace Armstrong snooker the heck out him on that contract extension. He basically backed up the brinks truck for BK and said " Oh u want 4 more years - wait I can give you 6 years at $4.5 million per year." Trace and BK have stolen $22 million from ND.

 

[Extirpate 6951]

BK was more concerned about taking pictures in the Boston Red Sox dugout. ND was not prepared to play BC that night. Got fortunate as heck to win that game vs. a terrible BC team.

The more I think about games he's coached the more pissed I get at Jack for letting Trace Armstrong snooker the heck out him on that contract extension. He basically backed up the brinks truck for BK and said " Oh u want 4 more years - wait I can give you 6 years at $4.5 million per year." Trace and BK have stolen $22 million from ND.

This is why you don't hire a third tier lawyer from pallookaville to run athletic programs.

 

[michigaNDer#1]

30 seconds away? Who goes for two early in the game? Had he kicked the extra point, they would have only needed to kick an extra point to tie Clemson, who you gave the usual 14 pt lead. Kelly is a moron. Throws all day in a monsoon. Goes empty backfield on the half yard line. They rush all the way down the field , get into the red zone, and then he throws the ball four times. Tulsa?

 

[Harpo Marxist]

In Kelly's defense....he is committed to the element of surprise...After all, the other team's coaches couldn't believe he's that dumb to line up in the shotgun with an empty backfield on the 1 yard line...or throw it In Tulsa...They were expecting a trick play or trying to draw their defense off sides....etc...I never thought he would actually follow through with one bonehead call after another either. Fooled me too.

 

[perseverare]

people, what do they call doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result?

 

[cgvr]

Seems like we forgot that we not only went to the NC 4 years ago, but we were literally 30 seconds away from being one of four teams in the playoff last year.

Now, we have a horrible year aided by bad luck, bad coaching, suspensions, etc...... and everyone is ready to burn the HC at the stake and hire the new flavor of the month.

I get that ND deserves better, and there is no excuse for only winning 4 games (with our easiest schedule I can ever remember)..... but there is no guarantee that any coach out there could do a better job. I think he deserves one more year, and if there are not vast improvements within the defense and special teams.... ND should explore their other options for a head coach.

Just my thought, please add my to the witch hunt now.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/recap?gameId=400757090

We were outside the playoff picture at 6 after an abysmal performance versus bc. Please explain how a win versus Stanford would have put us back in.
PS weis was a bush push from NC game consideration....

 

[Java65]

So basically only 4 or 5 coaches in college football fit your criteria the last 5 or so years. I'll name them for you Stoops, Dabo, Saban, Meyer, and Jimbo. So yeah it does sound unrealistic we aren't a football power.

Really? Garry Patterson has. In 4 years Helfrich won 10+ games twice and 9 games a 3rd year. David Shaw. Chryst at Wisconsin has won 10 games his first 2 season. Mark Richt at UG did. Art Briles at Baylor. Gundy at OkSt.

If Niumatalolo beats either Temple or Army he'll have 2 years in a row of winning 10+ games.

The fact is with 13 games and a bowl it should be fairly easy to win 10 games in 3 out of 5 years at ND.