Freeman In Over His Head

[banmate6]

Yes, there are differences between 2024 and 2012. But as I've pointed out, if ND loses to OSU, the final outcome will be IDENTICAL -- A LOSS IN THE GAME THAT DECIDES THE NC. And if it's a BLOWOUT LOSS, then we almost have a case of the TWO OSWALDS.

Which will then again EMPOWER the ANTI-ND BRIGADE IN THE MEDIA to say -- SEE, IT'S THE SAME NARRATIVE: CLOSE, BUT STILL NO-CIGAR ND.

Whereas a win will go a long way to SLAYING THAT DRAGON and supplying the program with the kind of ADDED CAPITAL it will need to remain a FUTURE PLAYOFF FIXTURE. Which is something I'm less SANGUINE about ND remaining given that in any two-loss season it could easily be sitting AT BEST on the CUSP OF THE PLAYOFFS or not even making them.

All I'm saying is that this is a CRUCIAL MOMENT to STRIKE -- one that may not come again so easily. As for being glad to have made it this far, there's certainly much to be said in favor of what ND has accomplished. But to look to that as ADEQUATE CONSOLATION for not having gone all the way starts leading to -- at least as I see it -- a more MORAL VICTORY mindset.

And aren't ND's long list of unsatisfying MORAL VICTORIES the thing that supporters have been RAILING AGAINST these many years?

My own mindet is PASS/FAIL. You lose this game, and you've FAILED to win an NC. And it's the ONE SALIENT FACT that remains.

Those are 2 very different frames of reference. As to the 1st, I don't think it was so much moral victories as simply getting blown out consistently against strong competition...knowing ND was not closer to being elite, much less really winning a NC.

This ND is elite relative to the competition and has beaten some of the best teams in the county. Teeing it up for a deserved final against a deserved elite opponent.

Ok, your frame of reference is binary PASS/FAIL. Seems harsh to make it that after getting high test sores all season, only to come down to a possible FAIL?. Nah, for me, it's more passing with an A or A+...at worst, a blowout is a B+...call it a curve on injuries, that hedge we discussed.



All good, let's see...but I'm expecting ND to pull this off. It will be fun discussing, analyzing, and enjoying. I feel like it's 1988 or 1993 again.

 

[banmate6]

Unreadable

He's a good poster actually. If you want, check out my response...I think he's being too hard on the Irish.

After all that has been achieved this season, no way can it come down to PASS/FAIL...because ND needs to prove it now is back and really belongs?

🤔

Nah. This Irish have established that. This playoff run and a few decent opponents along the way speak to it.

Let's hope they pull off the win vs Ohio State. That would be magical.

🙏

 

[sjb75]

He's a good poster actually. If you want, check out my response...I think he's being too had on the Irish.

After all that has been achieved this season, no way can it come down to PASS/FAIL...because ND needs to prove it now is back and really belongs?

🤔

Nah. This Irish have established that. This playoff run and a few decent opponents along the way speak to it.

Let's hope they pull off the win vs Ohio State. That would be magical.

🙏

He's not a good poster. Never has been. You deserve an award, though, for reading what he writes.

 

[banmate6]

I don’t think the fan base has a clue about how depleted Notre Dame is due to injuries.

Diehard fans may know, but the fan base is definitely clueless, and I don’t say that in a derogatory way

I can't say I representatively sampled this. But I gloss Facebook and The Athletic. Most posters seem to acknowledge the injuries for ND.

Haters bring it up to say it's a reason why Ohio State will allegedly boatrace ND...they bring up the Beck injury to excuse the GA win.

Supporters say next man, citing surprising depth of talent.

The pundits sure bring it up a lot.

Fans seem more in the loop these days about info...even if many twist it.

 

[banmate6]

He's not a good poster. Never has been. You deserve an award, though, for reading what he writes.

I've had good interactions with him.

BTW: We don't seem to have real trolls here. But remember that new account clown on the game thread vs PSU? He didn't get banned till after the game, spamming us.

Is there a way to notify the admin to be alert for this?

 

[Irish_inPSU]

You're full of shit. On paper Penn State isn't far more talented than Notre Dame. And Penn State does develop players. Your characterization is garbage.

5 - 5 star players compared to our 1
4 star players we have a few more
3 star they had a few more.

I don't think I ever said "far" more talented, but you have to be blind to think PSU didn't have an edge talent wise at certain positions and on paper. All else being equal, the 5 star type play makers on a team usually make a big impact in a game.

That being said, I never put a great deal of stock in the "star power" of recruits as we all know, at least I think we do, that some players can be coached into a "five star".

 

[Golson5]

5 - 5 star players compared to our 1
4 star players we have a few more
3 star they had a few more.

I don't think I ever said "far" more talented, but you have to be blind to think PSU didn't have an edge talent wise at certain positions and on paper. All else being equal, the 5 star type play makers on a team usually make a big impact in a game.

That being said, I never put a great deal of stock in the "star power" of recruits as we all know, at least I think we do, that some players can be coached into a "five star".

247 does a team talent ranking from recruiting rankings. We are higher than psu in points and per player avg.

 

[Irish_inPSU]

247 does a team talent ranking from recruiting rankings. We are higher than psu in points and per player avg.

Interesting. I'm always curious about things like this. I will have to look for that.

 

[Golson5]

Interesting. I'm always curious about things like this. I will have to look for that.

Go to 247 and look up college team talent

 

[4-4-3]

So you believe it’s Participation trophy or national championship !

Actually, I'd say ND is MORE than participation-trophy-worthy if it doesn't beat OSU, but then it's also achieved NO MORE than a MORAL VICTORY by making it that far and NOT WINNING.

And as I'm pretty TIRED of those, I'm for a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP.

 

[4-4-3]

Those are 2 very different frames of reference. As to the 1st, I don't think it was so much moral victories as simply getting blown out consistently against strong competition...knowing ND was not closer to being elite, much less really winning a NC.

This ND is elite relative to the competition and has beaten some of the best teams in the county. Teeing it up for a deserved final against a deserved elite opponent.

Ok, your frame of reference is binary PASS/FAIL. Seems harsh to make it that after getting high test sores all season, only to come down to a possible FAIL?. Nah, for me, it's more passing with an A or A+...at worst, a blowout is a B+...call it a curve on injuries, that hedge we discussed.



All good, let's see...but I'm expecting ND to pull this off. It will be fun discussing, analyzing, and enjoying. I feel like it's 1988 or 1993 again.

I don't think people focus on FRAMES OF REFERENCE when taking a view of these things. What stands out is the FINAL RESULT. It's the HEADLINE that takes precedence because it's THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS. Other metrics and statistics quickly MELT AWAY.

As for the harshnes of a binary approach, I'd argue that it's only harsh if you come out on THE WRONG END OF IT.

Until ND ACTUALLY WINS AN NC, the buzz will continue to be that it's simply A BRIDGE TOO FAR.

SO, JUST WIN, BABY.

Anything short of that, and you're still on MORAL VICTORY TERRAIN.

 

[francade]

Way to go out on a limb claiming if we lose, it’s just another moral victory. We’re 8-9 point dogs. So all we have to do is beat a team that’s favored by more than a TD to become worthy of his praise. 🤮 serial pontificator

 

[banmate6]

I don't think people focus on FRAMES OF REFERENCE when taking a view of these things. What stands out is the FINAL RESULT. It's the HEADLINE that takes precedence because it's THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS. Other metrics and statistics quickly MELT AWAY.

As for the harshnes of a binary approach, I'd argue that it's only harsh if you come out on THE WRONG END OF IT.

Until ND ACTUALLY WINS AN NC, the buzz will continue to be that it's simply A BRIDGE TOO FAR.

SO, JUST WIN, BABY.

Anything short of that, and you're still on MORAL VICTORY TERRAIN.

I guess we can agree to disagree like gentlemen.

I will keep enjoying this remarkable season. I still hear from the street that ND is legitimate. With even haters saying the 2 best teams are playing...and that it might never have happened in older formats like the BCS or 4 team playoffs.

ND for me is back. Legitimately competitive with anybody. Even the 1 team a bit distinguished in overall talent in Ohio State.

It's a thrill, the magic is back, harkening to my old days as a boy in the 70s and 80s.

 

[4-4-3]

I guess we can agree to disagree like gentlemen.

I will keep enjoying this remarkable season. I still hear from the street that ND is legitimate. With even haters saying the 2 best teams are playing...and that it might never have happened in older formats like the BCS or 4 team playoffs.

ND for me is back. Legitimately competitive with anybody. Even the 1 team a bit distinguished in overall talent in Ohio State.

It's a thrill, the magic is back, harkening to my old days as a boy in the 70s and 80s.

I have ZERO PROBLEM with disagreement. AS LONG AS ITS CIVIL.

In terms of psychological criteria currently in use by some practitioners, I RANK HIGH in both DISAGREEABLENESS and CONSCIENTOUSNESS. So my M.O. is to ARGUE but insofar as I can manage it, to do it HONESTLY AND FAIRLY.

As for ND being back, MY VIEW is that it is ONE GAME AWAY -- BACK being defined as a CHAMPION rather than just a RANKED CONTENDER. Both confer LEGITIMACY albeit NOT AT THE SAME LEVEL.

I'm also not sure that coming in SECOND confers enough LEGITIMACHY to CHANGE THE NARRATIVE among those who are not ACTIVE SUPPORTERS. Are the Yankees back after that subpar performance against the Dodgers? Not for me. Sure, they reached the WS, but THEY DIDN'T WIN IT.

But then, I certainly understand your PERSPECTIVE as well. To each his own.

 

[raulduke_007]

I have ZERO PROBLEM with disagreement. AS LONG AS ITS CIVIL.

In terms of psychological criteria currently in use by some practitioners, I RANK HIGH in both DISAGREEABLENESS and CONSCIENTOUSNESS. So my M.O. is to ARGUE but insofar as I can manage it, to do it HONESTLY AND FAIRLY.

As for ND being back, MY VIEW is that it is ONE GAME AWAY -- BACK being defined as a CHAMPION rather than just a RANKED CONTENDER. Both confer LEGITIMACY albeit NOT AT THE SAME LEVEL.

I'm also not sure that coming in SECOND confers enough LEGITIMACHY to CHANGE THE NARRATIVE among those who are not ACTIVE SUPPORTERS. Are the Yankees back after that subpar performance against the Dodgers? Not for me. Sure, they reached the WS, but THEY DIDN'T WIN IT.

But then, I certainly understand your PERSPECTIVE as well. To each his own.

Disagree 2012, 2018 & 2020 is where "contender" label fits
ND beat 3 "contenders" to get to the title. So this run more complete and bonafide than previous. This run puts ND into elite status.

 

[john0gaunt]

With the injuries sustained and the high level these guys are playing, this team is an elite. And they are an elite contender. All this talent returns next year. I believe 1988 was considered a rebuilding year and 1989 was to be the big year. Reminiscent.

 

[christophero]

We have had a great year. I don't mind losing. Of course I would prefer winning and think we have a decent shot. I just don't want to be blown out. Think of Super Bowl blowouts. No one remembers who the loser beat to get there. Most will just remember the blow out. This team has proven it can hang with anyone so we will see.

 

[NDinNJ]

I don’t think the fan base has a clue about how depleted Notre Dame is due to injuries.

Diehard fans may know, but the fan base is definitely clueless, and I don’t say that in a derogatory way

and the college fanbase outside of the ND circle is completely clueless. I have friends in SEC land, and every one of them said ND beat Georgia because Georgia was playing its backup QB.

When I informed them of all the injuries, they had no idea ND was that depleted.

 

[NDinNJ]

The only thing Kelly laid was a twerking out egg!

and here comes Savvy in 3....2....1....

 

[4-4-3]

Disagree 2012, 2018 & 2020 is where "contender" label fits
ND beat 3 "contenders" to get to the title. So this run more complete and bonafide than previous. This run puts ND into elite status.

And if it loses, does that mean YOU WILL STILL CALL IT CHAMPION? Given you've just argued that it's MORE THAN A CONTENDER ALREADY? Will you declare a loss a MORAL VICTORY? And will that be SATISFACTORY? I'm sure Freeman doesn't see it that way.

It can only be ONE or the OTHER.

Don't you think calling it anything before the outcome of the NC game is PREMATURE?

I certainly UNDERSTAND the sentiment of wishing to PROJECT this team WELL BEYOND those other squads you mentioned. But YOU DON'T KNOW YET if that's the case other than by PERSONALLY DECLARING IT as THERE'S ONE BIG PRECINCT that has yet to heard from.

And I'm not saying how this will turn out. I'm saying that IT AIN'T OVER TILL IT'S OVER.

That said, I suspect that even if ND loses, the argument will be made that a MAJOR CORNER HAS BEEN TURNED. That may VERY WELL BE. But again, that won't be known for the next two or three seasons.

I think ND has a good chance of beating OSU as well as making it to the next level on a CONSISTENT BASIS, but I DON'T KNOW IT ALREADY and I'm certainly not GUARANTEEING IT.

WE NEED TO LET IT PLAY OUT.

 

[BGI User 1596]

And if it loses, does that mean YOU WILL STILL CALL IT CHAMPION? Given you've just argued that it's MORE THAN A CONTENDER ALREADY? Will you declare a loss a MORAL VICTORY? And will that be SATISFACTORY? I'm sure Freeman doesn't see it that way.

It can only be ONE or the OTHER.

Don't you think calling it anything before the outcome of the NC game is PREMATURE?

I certainly UNDERSTAND the sentiment of wishing to PROJECT this team WELL BEYOND those other squads you mentioned. But YOU DON'T KNOW YET if that's the case other than by PERSONALLY DECLARING IT as THERE'S ONE BIG PRECINCT that has yet to heard from.

And I'm not saying how this will turn out. I'm saying that IT AIN'T OVER TILL IT'S OVER.

That said, I suspect that even if ND loses, the argument will be made that a MAJOR CORNER HAS BEEN TURNED. That may VERY WELL BE. But again, that won't be known for the next two or three seasons.

I think ND has a good chance of beating OSU as well as making it to the next level on a CONSISTENT BASIS, but I DON'T KNOW IT ALREADY and I'm certainly not GUARANTEEING IT.

WE NEED TO LET IT PLAY OUT.

Championship or self awarded participation trophy.

 

[Irish_inPSU]

I'll just add this to the conversation the original nonsense post. If Freeman is in over his head, I hope we stay that way forever. I can live with winning our way through the playoffs and playing for the title, all while being in over our heads each year. How about you?

 

[4-4-3]

Championship or self awarded participation trophy.

While at the same time, RECOGNIZING the superior accomplishments to date.

To beat 4 top 10 teams in a row would be UNIQUELY HISTORIC. To have beaten 3 in a row already has also -- I don't believe -- ever been done at ND.

Yet, if "BACK" only means a top 5 program STILL IN SEARCH OF AN NC -- that's one thing. But to WIN an NC is something else and what I've always thought most supporters mean when they say "BACK."

The time is NOW as there's NO TELLING when this opportunity will again present itself.

Having been alive for ND Poll championships in 49, 66, 73, 77 and 88 -- plus a MacArthur Foundation NC in 64 -- I can tell you that WHEN YOU ACTUALLY WIN, the feeling is MUCH DIFFERENT.

And there's NO QUESTION of whether or not you're "BACK".

 

[BGI User 1596]

While at the same time, RECOGNIZING the superior accomplishments to date.

To beat 4 top 10 teams in a row would be UNIQUELY HISTORIC. To have beaten 3 in a row already has also -- I don't believe -- ever been done at ND.

Yet, if "BACK" only means a top 5 program STILL IN SEARCH OF AN NC -- that's one thing. But to WIN an NC is something else and what I've always thought most supporters mean when they say "BACK."

The time is NOW as there's NO TELLING when this opportunity will again present itself.

Having been alive for ND Poll championships in 49, 66, 73, 77 and 88 -- plus a MacArthur Foundation NC in 64 -- I can tell you that WHEN YOU ACTUALLY WIN, the feeling is MUCH DIFFERENT.

And there's NO QUESTION of whether or not you're "BACK".

You’re old and wise … National Champion or bust!

 

[PHJIndy]

IMO, it has been a very good season. Only one team has a great season, and that's the one that wins Monday night.
GO IRISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[christophero]

Agree, even if we lose we are 3 and 1 against playoff teams. And we still have a shot to win.

 

[4-4-3]

You’re old and wise … National Champion or bust!

OLD I'LL GIVE YOU.

 

[4-4-3]

IMO, it has been a very good season. Only one team has a great season, and that's the one that wins Monday night.
GO IRISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TOTALLY AGREE.

THIS IS IT!

 

[sjb75]

Going to be pathetic to watch this evolve. I think we know why we hired this guy. Lots of politics at play here. It’s simply a popularity contest rather than who the best fit is to win games. It’s going to ruin his career. He has no head-coaching experience whatsoever and that is going to show big time. It’s funny how people like hiring someone because they like them more than wins and losses. Freeman is the safe hire and that’s exactly what Jack is doing. Everyone wants him to be hired on staff and so to the players and so this regardless of how poorly it turns out will be forgiven because Jack is concerned about current popularity rather than actually hiring the next great coach. Of course the players and the coaches want him hired the coaches want to keep their jobs and the players like safety and comfort of knowing who their coach is. That’s a terrible reason to hire someone. Enjoy losing to Riley for the next two decades.

Never gets old.

 

[sjb75]

Going to be pathetic to watch this evolve. I think we know why we hired this guy. Lots of politics at play here. It’s simply a popularity contest rather than who the best fit is to win games. It’s going to ruin his career. He has no head-coaching experience whatsoever and that is going to show big time. It’s funny how people like hiring someone because they like them more than wins and losses. Freeman is the safe hire and that’s exactly what Jack is doing. Everyone wants him to be hired on staff and so to the players and so this regardless of how poorly it turns out will be forgiven because Jack is concerned about current popularity rather than actually hiring the next great coach. Of course the players and the coaches want him hired the coaches want to keep their jobs and the players like safety and comfort of knowing who their coach is. That’s a terrible reason to hire someone. Enjoy losing to Riley for the next two decades.

Never gets old.

 

[sjb75]

Going to be pathetic to watch this evolve. I think we know why we hired this guy. Lots of politics at play here. It’s simply a popularity contest rather than who the best fit is to win games. It’s going to ruin his career. He has no head-coaching experience whatsoever and that is going to show big time. It’s funny how people like hiring someone because they like them more than wins and losses. Freeman is the safe hire and that’s exactly what Jack is doing. Everyone wants him to be hired on staff and so to the players and so this regardless of how poorly it turns out will be forgiven because Jack is concerned about current popularity rather than actually hiring the next great coach. Of course the players and the coaches want him hired the coaches want to keep their jobs and the players like safety and comfort of knowing who their coach is. That’s a terrible reason to hire someone. Enjoy losing to Riley for the next two decades.

Never gets old.

 

[ndhuntington]

Guys it's been proven mutiple times that we don't need 5 stars we need 4 stars that pop which since Freeman has been here it's happening. There are roughly only 30 maybe 5 stars if we can get one to two per cycle I would be happy.

 

[sjb75]

Never gets old.

 

[4-4-3]

Guys it's been proven mutiple times that we don't need 5 stars we need 4 stars that pop which since Freeman has been here it's happening. There are roughly only 30 maybe 5 stars if we can get one to two per cycle I would be happy.

And to be FAIR, ND has ranked very high in recent years in FOUR STARS. And the impact has been MATERIAL.

 

[tbonesays]

I think he was just being a punk. What does he mean by 700 though? Seven hundred bucks? That seems like a random amount. But I don't gamble.

I do have to chuckle at the deference reliably given to Vegas bookies. As if they control the earth or something. It tilts on their axis. And if your thoughts on games are at odds with theirs, you're probably wrong. It's Vegas after all, they got it down to a science.

I was listening to a sports betting show in the 1st quarter that was giving real time odds. When we scored on the first drive the spread shrank to anOSU -4ish. After they got the ball back, the spread went back up to Bucks by 7.5. It went up even before they scored, the bettors only needed a few plays to see that they had a big advantage on offense.

 

[tbonesays]

I'll just add this to the conversation the original nonsense post. If Freeman is in over his head, I hope we stay that way forever. I can live with winning our way through the playoffs and playing for the title, all while being in over our heads each year. How about you?

OF course. But why would we think that this year predicts future years? Start from the premise that the transfer portal mostly resets the team every season.

 

[4-4-3]

I was listening to a sports betting show in the 1st quarter that was giving real time odds. When we scored on the first drive the spread shrank to anOSU -4ish. After they got the ball back, the spread went back up to Bucks by 7.5. It went up even before they scored, the bettors only needed a few plays to see that they had a big advantage on offense.

Yes. And lot of others SAW IT AS WELL.

It was as though one team was using fighter planes from a FEW GENERATIONS BACK while the other -- OSU -- had the latest fighter jet.

Under those circumstances, ND turned in a very GAME performance. But it was going up against a superior force. The difference in force wasn't -- say -- quite as apparent as between ND and Indiana, but it was nonethless significant as well as OBVIOUS.

 

[sjb75]

Going to be pathetic to watch this evolve. I think we know why we hired this guy. Lots of politics at play here. It’s simply a popularity contest rather than who the best fit is to win games. It’s going to ruin his career. He has no head-coaching experience whatsoever and that is going to show big time. It’s funny how people like hiring someone because they like them more than wins and losses. Freeman is the safe hire and that’s exactly what Jack is doing. Everyone wants him to be hired on staff and so to the players and so this regardless of how poorly it turns out will be forgiven because Jack is concerned about current popularity rather than actually hiring the next great coach. Of course the players and the coaches want him hired the coaches want to keep their jobs and the players like safety and comfort of knowing who their coach is. That’s a terrible reason to hire someone. Enjoy losing to Riley for the next two decades.

Never gets old.

 

[topset81]

No?

Then what was your REASON? That the FIX HAS BEEN IN from the outset? And that Ace Rothschild and Nicky Santoro decided that this is ND'S YEAR?

I'm joking but at the same time SERIOUSLY ASKING.

It's still rigged I just got the final wrong. The best team eon

 

[sjb75]

If we hire this idiot and Fickell wins a playoff game everyone on here will be shitting themselves

Thanks.