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For Those Of You That Don't Think Recruiting Rankings Matter

The question to me seems to be in order for ND to have won a championship this year was whether or not they needed 3-4 more superior athletic football players or that Kelly simply isn't good enough to get us the title. At this point going into year 7, I think it's very difficult to say.

On special teams, I think we can all agree the talent is there on an annual basis. It's never been great nor has it been bad, but there is always room for improvement. I've always wondered why ND coaches don't just look for the best special teams coach out there and pay him to come to ND. I don't like the idea of a position coach also coaching special teams. I don't know if there needs to be a change in coaching or a change in delegation of special teams responsibilities to other coaches who assist with special teams.

On defense, our biggest weakness from a talent/depth perspective was defensive end, as Okwara was the only true pass rushing threat and even he was just OK in my opinion. Rochell while dependable is really more of a DT, in my opinion. Tumbetti and Blakenship did not blossom, as some of us had hoped this year. As we all know D-Line has been the most challenging area to recruit. Linebackers; never in my opinon should a walk on be the starting MLB for the Irish. Schmidt God bless him was not a guy who should be starting when ND is trying to win the title. J. Owanulau was a former WR turned LB and it showed big time, as I think his athleticism, while not superior is still good enough, but mentally/instincts were very poor. I do like the future here at LB in terms of talent with Morgan, Coney, Bilal, Barajas, and Hayes. Corners, this year I think we had the talent, but inconsistent production. I think the talent will continue to be there. Strong safety was a plus this year with Shumate finally reaching his potential. Lastly, the free safety position. Two years in a row ND basically only has had one true free safety and while the talent, speed, and athleticism is there, Redfield has just not been able to put it together and be a every down safety making plays. Really would have been nice to have a 4 or 5 star FS behind him to pick up the slack. Redfield has one more year to get it right.

Offense had talent to enough to keep up with anybody in the country, IMO. They had the quality and depth at every position. Obviously injuries hurt us there and likely hampered production, but ND was still able to compete regardless.

Coaching wise, we all know about the problems on defense; too complicated, players are thinking too much, poor fundamental tackling, etc. I don't think this defense however, was as bad as everyone said it was, but there's certainly room for improvement. In just about every game there was about 4-6 plays that ND really screwed up on defensively. They have to focus on eliminating those errors whether they be fundamental errors or mental errors.

Coaching on offense, for the most part was very good. Incredibly explosive. So many big passes and long runs. The biggest letdown was the red zone offense. ND really should have scored 52-56 points against Stanford and 31-35 against Clemson(that was more the turnovers, not red zone issues). Part of the reason why ND rarely thumps inferior opponents is because of ND's troubles in the red zone. Kicking FGs always keeps the opponent in the game.

So in conclusion, special teams need a change in coaching or coaching assignments. Defensively, I do think there needs to be slight improvement on recruiting on defense. I really like the guys they got for DE and DBs, but I think we need 1-2 more quality LBs, which we are in the mix for and I really wish we were getting a dominant DT. I think not getting one will hurt ND down the road. On a separate note, I wish ND would strongly consider going after 1-2 JUCO kids to make up for the lack of recruits at any given position. Academics may get in the way of that and for a JUCO kid to make an immediate impact, they likely need to transfer in time for spring ball, which may be challenging. Even Saban and Meyer will occasionally take a JUCO kid. This would have been a perfect time to take a quality DT from a JUCO school. As for coaching, defense really needs to get back to the basics; basic coverage skills, read and react skills, and tackling skills. That's on the coaches to make sure of that. As for offense, the recruiting has been fantastic and if ND gets D. Robertson, I'm going nuts! I'm expecting them to be very good next year regardless of who starts at QB. They may not be as explosive with the loss of Procise and Fuller, but the important thing is that they work on the red zone. I'd assign Jeff Quinn with the responsibility of researching, going to clinics, and coming up with red zone packages for Kelly to work with.

The leadership, vision, and accountability of the program from the coaches and players is there. It seems like ND is so close to being elite, but what's most frustrating is Kelly is going into year 7 and still looking for a his big win and big playoff/bowl win. That's where the doubt for Kelly comes into play. I'm really hoping ND closes this class out strong, ND stays healthy next year and ultimately turns the corner by at least getting a playoff win or a new year's six bowl win against an elite opponent. I think anything less than that is unacceptable.

GO IRISH!
 
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The question to me seems to be in order for ND to have won a championship this year was whether or not they needed 3-4 more superior athletic football players or that Kelly simply isn't good enough to get us the title. At this point going into year 7, I think it's very difficult to say.

On special teams, I think we can all agree the talent is there on an annual basis. It's never been great nor has it been bad, but there is always room for improvement. I've always wondered why ND coaches don't just look for the best special teams coach out there and pay him to come to ND. I don't like the idea of a position coach also coaching special teams. I don't know if there needs to be a change in coaching or a change in delegation of special teams responsibilities to other coaches who assist with special teams.

On defense, our biggest weakness from a talent/depth perspective was defensive end, as Okwara was the only true pass rushing threat and even he was just OK in my opinion. Rochell while dependable is really more of a DT, in my opinion. Tumbetti and Blakenship did not blossom, as some of us had hoped this year. As we all know D-Line has been the most challenging area to recruit. Linebackers; never in my opinon should a walk on be the starting MLB for the Irish. Schmidt God bless him was not a guy who should be starting when ND is trying to win the title. J. Owanulau was a former WR turned LB and it showed big time, as I think his athleticism, while not superior is still good enough, but mentally/instincts were very poor. I do like the future here at LB in terms of talent with Morgan, Coney, Bilal, Barajas, and Hayes. Corners, this year I think we had the talent, but inconsistent production. I think the talent will continue to be there. Strong safety was a plus this year with Shumate finally reaching his potential. Lastly, the free safety position. Two years in a row ND basically only has had one true free safety and while the talent, speed, and athleticism is there, Redfield has just not been able to put it together and be a every down safety making plays. Really would have been nice to have a 4 or 5 star FS behind him to pick up the slack. Redfield has one more year to get it right.

Offense had talent to enough to keep up with anybody in the country, IMO. They had the quality and depth at every position. Obviously injuries hurt us there and likely hampered production, but ND was still able to compete regardless.

Coaching wise, we all know about the problems on defense; too complicated, players are thinking too much, poor fundamental tackling, etc. I don't think this defense however, was as bad as everyone said it was, but there's certainly room for improvement. In just about every game there was about 4-6 plays that ND really screwed up on defensively. They have to focus on eliminating those errors whether they be fundamental errors or mental errors.

Coaching on offense, for the most part was very good. Incredibly explosive. So many big passes and long runs. The biggest letdown was the red zone offense. ND really should have scored 52-56 points against Stanford and 31-35 against Clemson(that was more the turnovers, not red zone issues). Part of the reason why ND rarely thumps inferior opponents is because of ND's troubles in the red zone. Kicking FGs always keeps the opponent in the game.

So in conclusion, special teams need a change in coaching or coaching assignments. Defensively, I do think there needs to be slight improvement on recruiting on defense. I really like the guys they got for DE and DBs, but I think we need 1-2 more quality LBs, which we are in the mix for and I really wish we were getting a dominant DT. I think not getting one will hurt ND down the road. On a separate note, I wish ND would strongly consider going after 1-2 JUCO kids to make up for the lack of recruits at any given position. Academics may get in the way of that and for a JUCO kid to make an immediate impact, they likely need to transfer in time for spring ball, which may be challenging. Even Saban and Meyer will occasionally take a JUCO kid. This would have been a perfect time to take a quality DT from a JUCO school. As for coaching, defense really needs to get back to the basics; basic coverage skills, read and react skills, and tackling skills. That's on the coaches to make sure of that. As for offense, the recruiting has been fantastic and if ND gets D. Robertson, I'm going nuts! I'm expecting them to be very good next year regardless of who starts at QB. They may not be as explosive with the loss of Procise and Fuller, but the important thing is that they work on the red zone. I'd assign Jeff Quinn with the responsibility of researching, going to clinics, and coming up with red zone packages for Kelly to work with.

The leadership, vision, and accountability of the program from the coaches and players is there. It seems like ND is so close to being elite, but what's most frustrating is Kelly is going into year 7 and still looking for a his big win and big playoff/bowl win. That's where the doubt for Kelly comes into play. I'm really hoping ND closes this class out strong, ND stays healthy next year and ultimately turns the corner by at least getting a playoff win or a new year's six bowl win against an elite opponent. I think anything less than that is unacceptable.

GO IRISH!
Red zone problems...Brian Kelly. Period. He might be the best play caller in the nation between the 20's. Red zone time....more in fact 1st and goal at the 9...is a total mess. First and goal from 5 on in..no problem. First and ten from the 12, huge problems again. These are about really accurate of the success in our red zone. There just is not as much room as there is between the 20's yet his play calling doesn't really change.

Special teams. I thought we had something going with special teams early this year only to be short lived. Holtz won games because of special teams. He put so much effort into it because he knew they can win you the game.
I thought BK this year put more time toward it but I don't think he did.

Defensively is a quadruple edged sword and we fall right on all four edges every God Damn game. The tackling sucks. The material is lackluster. The schemes which may be ok for professionals but not for the student athlete.
Defensive attitude.....NON EXISTENT!!!

Moreover you can have the best athletic players on defense but if you are not teaching them proper technique and fundamentals they will just keep your margin of defeat a little closer is all.

I'm convinced that in particular our back seven no matter the talent will be porous because of the coaching. BVG and or BVG's assistants are doing a terrible job reinforcing the most basic of things to ever teach. Simple under control textbook tackle....passing defense body positions...
Open field tackle....pursuit angles....outside contain....
These are just in simple to teach fundamentals. The player may not be athletic enough to get there in position at times but he could be as sound fundamentally as possible.
There is so much room for improvement with our defense just from fundamentals who the hell really knows just how good some of them could be.
 
Totally disagree with the "run first', "power running game", etc. Please tell me what beats Alabama's defense and what Urban Meyer said Clemson needed to beat Bama prior to the game.

ND's problem is not their offense.

Defense.


Michigan, all I am saying is that ND should recruit to their strengths. They have always been able to get big strong offensive linemen. ND has had the most success when they are able to run the football. That doesn't mean they shouldn't pass. But it also doesn't mean they should pass 40 plus times a game. Even under Brian Kelly they are most successful when they establish the run and pass 30 times or less. I also said defense is the Achilles heel. So it makes more sense to have an offense that can work the clock but also needs to score TDs when they have their opportunities.
 
Hmm, seems to me like 'coaching' is at the root of most of these issues...And it seems 2/3 (Bucks/Bama) just happen to have 2 of the best all-time coaches. Posters continually point to two teams who ND aspires to win like - Bama and Oh St. These guys absolutely recruit well but I think coaching is the biggest factor here. Not disputing the major importance of recruiting, I think ND has recruited well enough to compete and they have competed at a high level; comparable to the next 10 teams in the country.. These two teams have separated themselves from the pack and while recruiting is a huge factor, I think coaching is the biggest. BK is a top 10 college coach in my opinion but these two are legends.
Seems to me you are right. I have been thinking the same thing for a very long time.
 
If you don't have a powerful run game...you allow the defense to focus on its strengths while giving it an even break. A defense must be forced to play on its heels...and commit to multiple offensive options. Kelly seems to forfeit that leverage....by under-utilizing the run game, or misusing it. Bama forces your defense to commit all eleven players to mulitiple threats as a matter of routine.....in effect, wearing the defense down.
 
If you don't have a powerful run game...you allow the defense to focus on its strengths while giving it an even break. A defense must be forced to play on its heels...and commit to multiple offensive options. Kelly seems to forfeit that leverage....by under-utilizing the run game, or misusing it. Bama forces your defense to commit all eleven players to mulitiple threats as a matter of routine.....in effect, wearing the defense down.
Notre Dame avg 35 pts a game and Procise is a pro and Adams avg 7.1 yds per game Kizer had the most yds running for any ND QB in 20 years - if not for a couple special teams plays they beat Clemson and were 30 seconds away from beating Stanford - This bull shit about ND not running the ball enough is inaccurate and boorish
 
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Notre Dame avg 35 pts a game and Procise is a pro and Adams avg 7.1 yds per game Kizer had the most yds running for any ND QB in 20 years - if not for a couple special teams plays they beat Clemson and were 30 seconds away from beating Stanford - This bull shit about ND not running the ball enough is inaccurate and boorish
True but on the flip side - DK's first or second pass vs. Virginia was an easy pick SIX if the stone hands linebacker doesn't drop the ball hitting him square in the numbers - there were plays in a couple games that could have gone either way.
 
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Without a doubt recruiting matters. It's the lifeblood of any program.

Here's the problem though - Alabama gets kids Notre Dame can't even consider.
We, as ND fans, jump for joy when we are lucky enough to land some uber 5 star.
We get that lucky only once or twice a decade!! And then we have to hold our breath
hoping and praying he won't decommit before signing day.

Alabama, and others like them, have 5 star kids falling over themselves trying to
get in the door. If one blue-chipper can't pass Alabama's grueling admissions,
there's three more waiting in the wings. It's a luxury that Notre Dame just doesn't
have - and never will.

UND has to fight, scratch and claw to get Top 20, 15 or Top 10 classes. As a rule,
that's the best we can hope for. Every once in a blue moon, we'll land a Top 5
class or higher. That's when we all celebrate. For others, that blue moon is just
another day of the week.
 
All true SB, but BK's classes average in the top 10 over his time at ND. With all those things you mentioned, that's why you need to have all the cards fall in place (2012) to make a run and beat times like Bama/Ohio St. Again, ND cannot afford to lose 18 guys from the 2-deep and beat the defending National Champs in a NY6 Bowl.
 
Totally disagree with the "run first', "power running game", etc. Please tell me what beats Alabama's defense and what Urban Meyer said Clemson needed to beat Bama prior to the game.

ND's problem is not their offense.

Defense.
Ummm...First of all just because Meyer said that doesn't automatically make it ****ing so.
Let's review....ready?
Alabama put 45 points up against a higher ranked defense than themselves.

Now I ask you this....did Alabama shit can the power football run? No. Did they bring in some super athletic qb that Clemson couldn't handle? No!
When your offense is designed around a free wheeling QB ...you dance with what brought ya. That is all Meyer was saying.

Fancy cute offense is NOT the ONLY way to have success against a good defense.

Just ask Bama themselves who come off the bus running power football.
 
Ummm...First of all just because Meyer said that doesn't automatically make it ****ing so.
Let's review....ready?
Alabama put 45 points up against a higher ranked defense than themselves.

Now I ask you this....did Alabama shit can the power football run? No. Did they bring in some super athletic qb that Clemson couldn't handle? No!
When your offense is designed around a free wheeling QB ...you dance with what brought ya. That is all Meyer was saying.

Fancy cute offense is NOT the ONLY way to have success against a good defense.

Just ask Bama themselves who come off the bus running power football.
Nothing about poor tackling? :D
 
The thing that Bama has that most don't is... quality depth. (*And stellar development. Saban's kids are just so well-coached! They tackle so well. And great attitude. No bs attitude, they really play like a professional team.) I thought Clemson's starting O (and surprisingly D) was right up there with Bama in the NC game. But when Alexander went down they just didn't have backups that Bama had. That said, it was only a bold move by Saban that got them the victory...

I think our offense is as good as any in the final five teams. Our defense is not. And I really think Kelly needs to make a move to correct that.
 
the only way you can argue against or deny the relationship of recruiting and winning is to consciously, willfully and deliberately remain uninformed. Mind boggling th rationals used to argue against the relationship.
 
the only way you can argue against or deny the relationship of recruiting and winning is to consciously, willfully and deliberately remain uninformed. Mind boggling th rationals used to argue against the relationship.
I just scrolled through the thread and didn't see anybody denying the relationship or importance of recruiting and winning.
 
I just scrolled through the thread and didn't see anybody denying the relationship or importance of recruiting and winning.

two things - the reason you did not see anyone denying the importance is due to the fact that no one denies it - more melodrama by our boy purse
secondly I am still waiting for the exercise manual that helps eliminate knee and ankle injuries at ND . I want to forward it to Mr Longo quickly and cc Coach Kelly who according to our esteemed colleague Purse holds on to his assistants way too long due to blind loyalty .
 
I just scrolled through the thread and didn't see anybody denying the relationship or importance of recruiting and winning.
Exactly. Why pay attention to the thread when you can just interject and post a random statement about your pet peeve?
 
I actually would argue that Saban and company are not all that great at developing talent. When you get the top class or next to it year after year Alabama should be unbeaten every year and stomp just about everyone. But they have not.
If they really were as good, it would not be close year in year out. Alabama LOST last years NC game to a team that had finished behind them in recruiting I believe at least 4 of the last 5 years.

By any star or scout service ranking no team in college football has the amount of talent Alabama has and has had the last 5 years at least. Yet they have not gone 65-0 with 5 straight NC's have they? They have not only lost games to teams ALL LESS TALENTED but have barely beaten others ALSO LESS TALENTED.
 
ND can compete most years if they maintain their current level of recruiting quality. Top 10. This year there were too many defensive injuries in the end. That is the one edge the top 5 recruiting teams DO HAVE. Better depth.
 
I'm just wondering where the hell LSU, Florida, A&M, Tennessee, Ole Miss, Georgia, USC, have been the last few years? Seems to me, relating Alabama's success strictly to recruiting is the exception. These teams all recruit consistently in the top 10 and haven't done squat.
All of the above have at least done something recently, outside of Tennessee, and ND hasn't done much of anything so I guess you don't follow the college game much.
LSU- 2007 National Champs
Florida- 2008 National Champs
A&M- 2012 Heisman winner
Ole Miss- 2016 Sugar Bowl Champs
Georgia- Top-10 program constantly
USC- Crushed by sanctions after dominating the college game.

Meanwhile, ND has nothing to show for after six average years of Kelly.
 
All of the above have at least done something recently, outside of Tennessee, and ND hasn't done much of anything so I guess you don't follow the college game much.
LSU- 2007 National Champs
Florida- 2008 National Champs
A&M- 2012 Heisman winner
Ole Miss- 2016 Sugar Bowl Champs
Georgia- Top-10 program constantly
USC- Crushed by sanctions after dominating the college game.

Meanwhile, ND has nothing to show for after six average years of Kelly.
You probably should have stopped after LSU and Florida. And those are now 8 years ago, or longer.
 
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