Does Tradition mandate Kelly being fired after this year

[IrishBlooded]

If he doesn't win the title?

In all the years of Notre Dame coaches, they have never had a coach this long without winning a title. And since Tradition trumps here. Does this mean Kelly should be fired for not winning a title?

 

[SALittleGiant513]

I predict this thread will not be popular with a lot of people. I think if the team greatly underachieves, I am talking 4-8, 5-7, 6-6(w/ or w/o a loss in a bowl) like record this is the only way Kelly is fired. I think if Kelly goes 8-5, 9-4, 10-3 or better then JS will be fine with it.

 

[Irishjohn68]

My answer is no. As hard as it is for some to believe, I think he's the right man for the job.

 

[BGI User 756]

Why would you propose such a question after all the rhetoric about how the times have changed?

 

[ndhell]

Urban Meyer couldn't win a national title at ND with the restrictions they operate under.

 

[NDSMC78]

Originally posted by BGI User 756:
Why would you propose such a question after all the rhetoric about how the times have changed?

Bingo. The poster in question seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth.

 

[IrishBlooded]

Trying to better understand the definition of the terms used here, such as 'lowering the bar', 'honoring tradition', 'Doing it the way ND always has', etc. Seems to me that if ND has always either had a coach dismissed or won a title by this point in their career at ND. That this makes it a tradition. So if posters here hold tradition above all else. Does that mandate Kelly being dismissed, in the name of those traditions? Pretty black and white question to me.

 

[NDEwing18]

Originally posted by IrishBlooded:
Trying to better understand the definition of the terms used here, such as 'lowering the bar', 'honoring tradition', 'Doing it the way ND always has', etc. Seems to me that if ND has always either had a coach dismissed or won a title by this point in their career at ND. That this makes it a tradition. So if posters here hold tradition above all else. Does that mandate Kelly being dismissed, in the name of those traditions? Pretty black and white question to me.

Pretty big straw man if you ask me.

 

[NDSMC78]

Originally posted by IrishBlooded:
Trying to better understand the definition of the terms used here, such as 'lowering the bar', 'honoring tradition', 'Doing it the way ND always has', etc. Seems to me that if ND has always either had a coach dismissed or won a title by this point in their career at ND. That this makes it a tradition. So if posters here hold tradition above all else. Does that mandate Kelly being dismissed, in the name of those traditions? Pretty black and white question to me.

Really a ridiculous question, if you ask me. It was the same sort of question posed by sophists after ND fired Willingham.

This post was edited on 4/9 4:27 PM by NDSMC78

 

[BGI User 756]

Irishcocked not getting any rubs...err, bites....

if times are changed as you said, then traditions have changed .....recall the translative theory?

 

[Searn]

If he has a bad year and they are not improving he should? I don't know. A bigger question is who do you really think they can legitimately get that would be an upgrade?
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[TurnoverMachine]

Wow. Somebody is day drinking, heavily, with a question like that.

 

[Toby Smart]

As we speak, Tommy Clements is dusting off his resume and updating the darn thing just in case.

 

[perseverare]

IJ68

interesting reply.. Are you answering the question only on the basis that the statement is that Kelly must win a championship? But
If ND goes 7-5 are you saying that ND is now a team with 7-5 to 9-3 ceiling?

So if Kelly is the right man for the job, then what is the "job" ? To win 7-9 games?

My take on this is the worst case scenario: 8-4 means status quo. Jack will just march in place another year.
If 10+ wins Kelly's agent will operate under 'carpe diem'; he will knock on every NFL door. (NY being a probable opening; NY media is a lot different than In SB; gonna be a hoot!) The question is, will there be any takers?
If 6 or less wins then in spite of the continually offered excuses by some how can Jack stand up and in anyway sound forthright, that ND's mission statement is championship football? With 7 he might try get by selling the notion that this is a 'this it it last go', and again stand pat. But that just delays the inevitable.

Lastly, if change comes I think the next HC is already on the staff.

 

[Bodizephax]

Brian Kelly has shown a lot of loyalty towards Notre Dame. He and Jack are taking this program in the right direction.

No worries. We are loaded with depth and talent this year. Good chance at making playoffs.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

How has BK shown a lot of loyalty to ND independent of doing the job he is paid to do?

 

[perseverare]

football coach & loyalty

Let's ask UC fans? Or UF fans ? or ....

 

[cgvr]

Hahahahah

 

[Irish Grandeur]

I will stop short of calling this a ridiculous post. That said, coaches are not lining up to coach at ND like they did in the past.BK is a fine coach with a ceiling of being an elite coach.

NDs depth on the O-line and D-line are better than they have been in a very long time. ND has never been a successful 'finesse' team. The parts are in place - as witnessed by the LSU game - to compete with any team in CFB.

Turn 'em loose and let those dogs hunt.

 

[deadirishpoet]

If in deed times have changed is 8-4 with an 11 - 12 win season every third season the new tradition?

 

[Mheezyfosheezy3]

Think after kelly goes 11-1 or 10-2 silly threads like these will go away

Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[Bodizephax]

SAL,How the hell has Brian Kelly not shown loyalty to Notre Dame? He has been at ND 5 Years and he was the biggest bargain as far as salary goes according to most "in the know". So just how can you prove that my opinion that Coach Kelly has shown a lot of loyalty is wrong?.

Man, I make a innocuous comment about the current coach of Notre Dame and I get sniped at. , I will always return fire.

SAL, So you agree with your pal Perse that he is just looking for an NFL job? ..

You are just another Kelly hater,IMO.. At least Perse admits it..



.






This post was edited on 4/10 5:21 AM by Bodizephax

 

[Pennick4]

If they go o for 12 then we would have to blame Jack since he hires all the assistants for Kelly.

 

[schadenfreude]

Originally posted by SALittleGiant513:
I predict this thread will not be popular with a lot of people. I think if the team greatly underachieves, I am talking 4-8, 5-7, 6-6(w/ or w/o a loss in a bowl) like record this is the only way Kelly is fired. I think if Kelly goes 8-5, 9-4, 10-3 or better then JS will be fine with it.

I feel the same. I also think Kelly is more likely to leave for the NFL than to be fired.

 

[deadirishpoet]

Penn
I know that was talking cheek but let's be honest putting the assistants in the right place is Kelly's best attribute

 

[SALittleGiant513]

Originally posted by Bodizephax:
SAL,How the hell has Brian Kelly not shown loyalty to Notre Dame? He has been at ND 5 Years and he was the biggest bargain as far as salary goes according to most "in the know". So just how can you prove that my opinion that Coach Kelly has shown a lot of loyalty is wrong?.

Man, I make a innocuous comment about the current coach of Notre Dame and I get sniped at. , I will always return fire.

SAL, So you agree with your pal Perse that he is just looking for an NFL job? ..

You are just another Kelly hater,IMO.. At least Perse admits it..



.





This post was edited on 4/10 5:21 AM by Bodizephax

Bodi- He bargained for that pay, he has the right to renegotiate a pay raise and/or an extension, which he has done multiple times. Not going to the NFL or leaving for another college team are ways he has shown loyalty but there aren't any examples of schools that have came trying to poach him or of offer he has actually had from the NFL. Maybe schools and NFL teams don't come for him because through back channels he has his agent saying "don't bother" but there is nothing expressed outwardly that BK is doing anything other then coming to work everyday for a job he signed up for.

Bodi I am glad that you default to trying to link me with Perse in a thread where I posted I thought the topic was (a) not useful and (b) mute b/c I don't see BK getting fired unless he has a losing season. I am not sure how any of my comments can be interpreted as an opinion that BK is just looking for an NFL job. I just believe that doing you job doesn't make you especially loyal, it make you person not in breach of your contract.

 

[perseverare]

Sal
when someone uses the "hate" word it says a lot more about them than the one it is directed at!


FWIW: I separate my opinion of Kelly between as a HC and as a Man. I do not think he is a bad coach; nor do I attibute greatness to him as a coach.
He has to accomplish something great and be consistant to be considered in that catagory.

Now the new stafv additions may well be perfect compliments to achieve something that was otherwise unachievable; they are bringing game plan and in game talents that seemed to be missing parts in prior seasons; if that is proven out then both Kelly and Jack get credit for good choices.

 

[Irishjohn68]

Originally posted by NDSMC78:

Originally posted by IrishBlooded:
Trying to better understand the definition of the terms used here, such as 'lowering the bar', 'honoring tradition', 'Doing it the way ND always has', etc. Seems to me that if ND has always either had a coach dismissed or won a title by this point in their career at ND. That this makes it a tradition. So if posters here hold tradition above all else. Does that mandate Kelly being dismissed, in the name of those traditions? Pretty black and white question to me.

Really a ridiculous question, if you ask me. It was the same sort of question posed by sophists after ND fired Willingham.


This post was edited on 4/9 4:27 PM by NDSMC78



This is beyond ridiculous! Just unbelievable, speechless!

 

[perseverare]

BTW

on the subject of loyalty; Dec '12 through Jan.'13.

 

[IrishBlooded]

Originally posted by Irishjohn68:

Originally posted by NDSMC78:

Originally posted by IrishBlooded:
Trying to better understand the definition of the terms used here, such as 'lowering the bar', 'honoring tradition', 'Doing it the way ND always has', etc. Seems to me that if ND has always either had a coach dismissed or won a title by this point in their career at ND. That this makes it a tradition. So if posters here hold tradition above all else. Does that mandate Kelly being dismissed, in the name of those traditions? Pretty black and white question to me.

Really a ridiculous question, if you ask me. It was the same sort of question posed by sophists after ND fired Willingham.


This post was edited on 4/9 4:27 PM by NDSMC78



This is beyond ridiculous! Just unbelievable, speechless!

Actually it was to help show that tradition for the sake of tradition is just silly. Winning championships is a tradition. But it isn't happening now. And while there is no single silver bullet answer to fixing that (other then the obvious which is to not lose a game). Some things seem more linked in the past and practices that don't matter then in the future and where college football is at or going.

I absolutely treasure the ND tradition and heritage. But if that is all that matters to the fan. Then I have to ask, where do you draw that line? Do you want to see ND just continue to do as it has. And continue to be a top 20 or so team each year at year end. Or do what is possible to further that. As Lou has always said. What are you willing to sacrifice to succeed?

 

[NDEwing18]

Originally posted by IrishBlooded:

Originally posted by Irishjohn68:

Originally posted by NDSMC78:

Originally posted by IrishBlooded:
Trying to better understand the definition of the terms used here, such as 'lowering the bar', 'honoring tradition', 'Doing it the way ND always has', etc. Seems to me that if ND has always either had a coach dismissed or won a title by this point in their career at ND. That this makes it a tradition. So if posters here hold tradition above all else. Does that mandate Kelly being dismissed, in the name of those traditions? Pretty black and white question to me.

Really a ridiculous question, if you ask me. It was the same sort of question posed by sophists after ND fired Willingham.



This post was edited on 4/9 4:27 PM by NDSMC78




This is beyond ridiculous! Just unbelievable, speechless!

Actually it was to help show that tradition for the sake of tradition is just silly. Winning championships is a tradition. But it isn't happening now. And while there is no single silver bullet answer to fixing that (other then the obvious which is to not lose a game). Some things seem more linked in the past and practices that don't matter then in the future and where college football is at or going.

I absolutely treasure the ND tradition and heritage. But if that is all that matters to the fan. Then I have to ask, where do you draw that line? Do you want to see ND just continue to do as it has. And continue to be a top 20 or so team each year at year end. Or do what is possible to further that. As Lou has always said. What are you willing to sacrifice to succeed?

I don't think you understand what the word "tradition" means.

 

[NDSMC78]

Originally posted by NDEwing18:

Originally posted by IrishBlooded:

Originally posted by Irishjohn68:

Originally posted by NDSMC78:

Originally posted by IrishBlooded:
Trying to better understand the definition of the terms used here, such as 'lowering the bar', 'honoring tradition', 'Doing it the way ND always has', etc. Seems to me that if ND has always either had a coach dismissed or won a title by this point in their career at ND. That this makes it a tradition. So if posters here hold tradition above all else. Does that mandate Kelly being dismissed, in the name of those traditions? Pretty black and white question to me.

Really a ridiculous question, if you ask me. It was the same sort of question posed by sophists after ND fired Willingham.



This post was edited on 4/9 4:27 PM by NDSMC78




This is beyond ridiculous! Just unbelievable, speechless!

Actually it was to help show that tradition for the sake of tradition is just silly. Winning championships is a tradition. But it isn't happening now. And while there is no single silver bullet answer to fixing that (other then the obvious which is to not lose a game). Some things seem more linked in the past and practices that don't matter then in the future and where college football is at or going.

I absolutely treasure the ND tradition and heritage. But if that is all that matters to the fan. Then I have to ask, where do you draw that line? Do you want to see ND just continue to do as it has. And continue to be a top 20 or so team each year at year end. Or do what is possible to further that. As Lou has always said. What are you willing to sacrifice to succeed?

I don't think you understand what the word "tradition" means.

It is is the straw man argument in te poster's ongoing crusade to try to convince people that being an independent is a meaningless tradition.

 

[IrishBlooded]

Originally posted by NDEwing18:

Originally posted by IrishBlooded:

Originally posted by Irishjohn68:

Originally posted by NDSMC78:

Originally posted by IrishBlooded:
Trying to better understand the definition of the terms used here, such as 'lowering the bar', 'honoring tradition', 'Doing it the way ND always has', etc. Seems to me that if ND has always either had a coach dismissed or won a title by this point in their career at ND. That this makes it a tradition. So if posters here hold tradition above all else. Does that mandate Kelly being dismissed, in the name of those traditions? Pretty black and white question to me.

Really a ridiculous question, if you ask me. It was the same sort of question posed by sophists after ND fired Willingham.



This post was edited on 4/9 4:27 PM by NDSMC78




This is beyond ridiculous! Just unbelievable, speechless!

Actually it was to help show that tradition for the sake of tradition is just silly. Winning championships is a tradition. But it isn't happening now. And while there is no single silver bullet answer to fixing that (other then the obvious which is to not lose a game). Some things seem more linked in the past and practices that don't matter then in the future and where college football is at or going.

I absolutely treasure the ND tradition and heritage. But if that is all that matters to the fan. Then I have to ask, where do you draw that line? Do you want to see ND just continue to do as it has. And continue to be a top 20 or so team each year at year end. Or do what is possible to further that. As Lou has always said. What are you willing to sacrifice to succeed?

I don't think you understand what the word "tradition" means.

Great then explain it. And I don't mean the Webster definition of it. Explain tradition as it relates in this conversation. Explain how no one was throwing a fit at not playing a B1G school this year wasn't a breach in tradition. When that practice is as old as the stadium is. But things like a Jumbotron, are absolutely off the table.

 

[NDEwing18]

You're being intentionally obtuse.

 

[IrishBlooded]

No. I'm trying to take the time to understand a different side of an argument often given here. Instead of just having one group tell the other they are wrong. I honestly want to see the explanation.

And bringing up Kelly getting fired or not tends to get people to join the conversation. Now on the record I am all for keeping him. I think he has done a great job. Will he get a championship? I don't know. But I can't think of another coach that would be willing to come to ND that I would rather see there (except maybe Charlie Strong).

So if the tradition is to get rid of coaches if they can't get a championship by close of year 5. Does this mean Kelly should be sacked for it? Or does this tradition not matter?

 

[echowaker]

Originally posted by perseverare:
BTW

on the subject of loyalty; Dec '12 through Jan.'13.

I nominate the above as the "stupid post of the day "

 

[NDEwing18]

Originally posted by IrishBlooded:

So if the tradition is to get rid of coaches if they can't get a championship by close of year 5. Does this mean Kelly should be sacked for it? Or does this tradition not matter?

As I've noted before in the thread, it's clear you don't understand what the word "tradition" means.

 

[Pennick4]

Originally posted by echowaker:

Originally posted by perseverare:
BTW

on the subject of loyalty; Dec '12 through Jan.'13.

I nominate the above as the "stupid post of the day "

He has accumulated many, many of those.

 

[IRISHJD98]

Originally posted by IrishBlooded:

Originally posted by NDEwing18:

I don't think you understand what the word "tradition" means.

Great then explain it. And I don't mean the Webster definition of it. Explain tradition as it relates in this conversation.

Great idea. We should just make up our own definition and then argue.

Eventually maybe we can come up with a common understanding and write that explanation down in some sort of book.

 

[perseverare]

ID98

that post is perfect! sums the solution to the boards problems! Only thing is that book will be a loooong time waiting for the 1st entry!