Another year...same old, same old ineffective QB

[4-4-3]

@NDinNJ
The QB position got ruined under Kelly by allowing Book to stay on for 17 years.
Then I said over the prevuous two years that playing this portal game is ridiculously stupid.
Freemqm might be doing better than Kelly in some areas but he's definitely mimicking BK on how to choose and stay with the wrong QB.

I also said two years ago the best QB on the roster was Angeli.
#1 he was the only QB at the time with real QB height.
#2 his running ability or lack of will make us a better team because he will throw the ball down the field.
#3 This whole thing is so irritating...I can't help but think NIL is a force in this.

Re the NIL piece, Pete Sampson offered on his POST-DEBACLE PODCAST -- words to the effect -- that there would be no thought of not starting Riley against Purdue as he'd cost a lot of money to bring in, and what message would it send to donors, whom they wish to tap again in the future, if Riley got benched.

NIL may indeed be corrupting the process of deciding who should start at quarterback. This will be ROUNDLY DENIED, I imagine, the first time the question is posed to Freeman, but then Sampson is a savvy guy, and I don't think he'd make this comment if he hadn't heard the topic discussed by someone who would know or might even be concerned about it

 

[4-4-3]

Would love to have Jack Coan this year.

Coan took a lot of crap when in fact he's been by far the best of the transfer QB's at ND. His immobility - due, I believe, to his foot injury at Wisconsin where he'd been a decent runner as he'd also been as an attack guy in lacrosse in high school -- hampered him, no question.

But he delivered the ball and with GREAT ACCURACY. Four TD passes in his first game at FSU in a comeback win plus another comeback win against V-Tech, I believe.

GAMER.

 

[88ND]

Re the NIL piece, Pete Sampson offered on his POST-DEBACLE PODCAST -- words to the effect -- that there would be no thought of not starting Riley against Purdue as he'd cost a lot of money to bring in, and what message would it send to donors, whom they wish to tap again in the future, if Riley got benched.

NIL may indeed be corrupting the process of deciding who should start at quarterback. This will be ROUNDLY DENIED, I imagine, the first time the question is posed to Freeman, but then Sampson is a savvy guy, and I don't think he'd make this comment if he hadn't heard the topic discussed by someone who would know or might even be concerned about it

Exactly what I said to some people ad I also said NOBODY will actually admit this.


So the NIL has left us with hoping for an injury? Nothing serious. Just one that forces the coaches hand since ya know...
....
NIL is running college football.

I said on this board a few years ago NIL will ruin CFB in 5 years.

It's actually happened sooner than that

 

[88ND]

Coan took a lot of crap when in fact he's been by far the best of the transfer QB's at ND. His immobility - due, I believe, to his foot injury at Wisconsin where he'd been a decent runner as he'd also been as an attack guy in lacrosse in high school -- hampered him, no question.

But he delivered the ball and with GREAT ACCURACY. Four TD passes in his first game at FSU in a comeback win plus another comeback win against V-Tech, I believe.

GAMER.

His lack of mobility made him better. Coan had to throw. Coaches knew he had to throw.

Let's be real here...
Riley is not mobile. He can find a few yards and isn't afraid. Applause.

The problem is the staff acts like he's some amazing dual threat QB when in fact he isn't a threat at anything.
He doesn't have game changing mobility. Not shredding a defense 59 yards for a running score.

He can't throw whatsoever.


But he's getting paid so start him every snap and watch the anemic offense continue.

 

[tbonesays]

Ian Book isn't the problem. It is trying to run an offense with Book that needs a Brady.

 

[Patrirish]

either you can't comprehend or just simply ignorant to it.

Ready?
coaches either won't give him longer throws because they are afraid of failure...
coaches won't give him long throws because he can't make them...

Either way it's wrong.

He wound up...stepped into that deep throw..you do realize the ball traveled about 38 yards? Maybe 40 yards with the right to left angle ...

If that's all he's got then no wonder they're afraid to call any long passing play.

BUT....

WTH is the real problem here...

Why on earth is he starting? If that's the best we have at our beloved then this program is a joke.
If the coaches are wrong in evaluation ...we have seen that fish before. BK wrote the book on picking the wrong QB.


NO matter what the QB situation is pathetic and as I said before relying on other team's table scraps is an absurd tactic to be a good team.
BE BETTER THAN THIS and recruit your very own QB that can play the position well.

We might have one on the roster in Angeli but as long as Riley is getting paid big bucks we will never know.

Show me proof that NIL is not swaying coaching decisions!

Bet ya can't

Maybe I can’t comprehend and I’m ignorant

Did you ever consider that maybe coaches call more efficient plays then throwing long, plays that have a higher chance of success.

Did it ever occur to you that he’s starting because he performed better in practice than the other QB’s ?

If you think that NIL is swaying coaching decisions, you know absolutely nothing about football,

 

[echowaker]

Maybe I can’t comprehend and I’m ignorant

Did you ever consider that maybe coaches call more efficient plays then throwing long, plays that have a higher chance of success.

Did it ever occur to you that he’s starting because he performed better in practice than the other QB’s ?

If you think that NIL is swaying coaching decisions, you know absolutely nothing about football,

You're first statement is unequivocally true. Admitting it is the first step.

 

[NDinNJ]

Maybe I can’t comprehend and I’m ignorant

Did you ever consider that maybe coaches call more efficient plays then throwing long, plays that have a higher chance of success.

Did it ever occur to you that he’s starting because he performed better in practice than the other QB’s ?

If you think that NIL is swaying coaching decisions, you know absolutely nothing about football,

I agree with you, however when the defense is showing you coverage defending the run and short to intermediate pass defense. You need to be able take shots downfield.

 

[echowaker]

I agree with you, however when the defense is showing you coverage defending the run and short to intermediate pass defense. You need to be able take shots downfield.

Absolutely. You're lucky if you get the look they had twice a game. Gotta take it. Gotta make it.

 

[Get Nasty]

Absolutely. You're lucky if you get the look they had twice a game. Gotta take it. Gotta make it.

That's a play where 50% of the time you throw a TD, another 20-30% is an under throw but the WR can come back and catch it or get PI, another 10-20% is an over throw, and about 0-5% that ball is thrown so bad it's picked. Probably the worst throw I can remember. That throw was easier to make than a tight 10 yard out. You just launch it high

 

[4-4-3]

Exactly what I said to some people ad I also said NOBODY will actually admit this.


So the NIL has left us with hoping for an injury? Nothing serious. Just one that forces the coaches hand since ya know...
....
NIL is running college football.

I said on this board a few years ago NIL will ruin CFB in 5 years.

It's actually happened sooner than that

Re your injury comment, Goolsby on his show stated that the only reason Riley wouldn't play would be do to an injury.

But he only said it after putting on the tin foil hat he somtimes wears. I'm not sure if he did an inverted commas gesture, but it almost sounded like he didn't mean INJURY so much as "INJURY."

Bottom Line: The bad ankle issue could definitely reemerge at some point, WALKING BOOT OR NOT.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Coan took a lot of crap when in fact he's been by far the best of the transfer QB's at ND. His immobility - due, I believe, to his foot injury at Wisconsin where he'd been a decent runner as he'd also been as an attack guy in lacrosse in high school -- hampered him, no question.

But he delivered the ball and with GREAT ACCURACY. Four TD passes in his first game at FSU in a comeback win plus another comeback win against V-Tech, I believe.

GAMER.

I saw him keep the ball on an option play at Wisconsin for some yards although he’s not exactly fleet of foot. He was pulled early in that Va Tech game. I think it was understandable not because of Coan but more to spark up the offense. Then Coan comes in cool as a cucumber and leads ND down for the tying touchdown and he made a nice play on the two point conversion.

He also played darn well in the bowl game but the defense blew the game. I think Coan was a championship caliber player.

I think it was wise to bring in all three transfer QB’s who started for ND though the jury is still out on Leonard (I happen to believe it was still a very sound decision to bring him in even if the process may not have been).

Not bringing in a proven QB for 2022 ended up being to the team’s detriment and I think that could have been seen before the season. I do understand why they rolled with Buchner though.

Now people are mad at the portal decisions even though they clearly worked out in 2021 and 2023 in my opinion.

 

[mbd11]

Re the NIL piece, Pete Sampson offered on his POST-DEBACLE PODCAST -- words to the effect -- that there would be no thought of not starting Riley against Purdue as he'd cost a lot of money to bring in, and what message would it send to donors, whom they wish to tap again in the future, if Riley got benched.

NIL may indeed be corrupting the process of deciding who should start at quarterback. This will be ROUNDLY DENIED, I imagine, the first time the question is posed to Freeman, but then Sampson is a savvy guy, and I don't think he'd make this comment if he hadn't heard the topic discussed by someone who would know or might even be concerned about it

But I'm assuming those same donors, like us here on this board, want to win? So if the guy they paid a lot of money for isn't getting the job done, they'd be okay with replacing him?

 

[FightingIrish44]

But I'm assuming those same donors, like us here on this board, want to win? So if the guy they paid a lot of money for isn't getting the job done, they'd be okay with replacing him?

Good point. I think just a little bit of logic makes it easy to assume that NIL has basically nothing to do with it.

I can’t imagine any NFL or college coach, at any level, letting someone outside the program dictate who they will or will not play. Their money is at stake if they play the wrong guy so why would they care about NIL?

Freeman has made millions of dollars over the last 10 years. He doesn’t need to deal with anyone’s interference in how he should run his program. I would think he would just resign if he was getting serious pressure to keep playing Leonard, and if he’s not getting serious pressure, he doesn’t care who is getting what money.

 

[mbd11]

Good point. I think just a little bit of logic makes it easy to assume that NIL has basically nothing to do with it.

I can’t imagine any NFL or college coach, at any level, letting someone outside the program dictate who they will or will not pay. Their money is at stake if they play the wrong guy so why would they care about NIL?

Freeman has made millions of dollars over the last 10 years. He doesn’t need to deal with anyone’s interference in how he should run his program. I would think he would just resign if he was getting serious pressure to keep playing Leonard, and if he’s not getting serious pressure, he doesn’t care who is getting what money.

Yeah, and the money somebody spent to bring in Leonard is basically a sunk cost at this point, anyways.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Good point. I think just a little bit of logic makes it easy to assume that NIL has basically nothing to do with it.

I can’t imagine any NFL or college coach, at any level, letting someone outside the program dictate who they will or will not play. Their money is at stake if they play the wrong guy so why would they care about NIL?

Freeman has made millions of dollars over the last 10 years. He doesn’t need to deal with anyone’s interference in how he should run his program. I would think he would just resign if he was getting serious pressure to keep playing Leonard, and if he’s not getting serious pressure, he doesn’t care who is getting what money.

Are you serious? How many times have we seen professional franchises stay with a coveted player they acquired, either as an expensive signing or a former top draft pick they are loath to give up on, to the detriment of their team, oftentimes being the reason a coach gets fired, because they couldn't let go of some important player they brought onto the roster almost as if it were a reflection on them personally.

So no, I definitely don't think coaches/team are above not doing the right thing, or the smart thing, and making a clean break and getting rid of an underperforming player no matter how much it cost to get him on the roster.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Are you serious? How many times have we seen professional franchises stay with a coveted player they acquired, either as an expensive signing or a former top draft pick they are loath to give up on, to the detriment of their team, oftentimes being the reason a coach gets fired, because they couldn't let go of some important player they brought onto the roster almost as if it were a reflection on them personally.

So no, I definitely don't think coaches/team are above not doing the right thing, or the smart thing, and making a clean break and getting rid of an underperforming player no matter how much it cost to get him on the roster.

A professional organization is different from a college team. In college, the coaches are the roster managers. That’s not the case in professional sports.

So the NFL head coach is subject to influence from the front office by default even though the coach is working in concert with them. The front office is part of the “program”.

If the NFL team drafts a QB in the first round, that could be a 20 year decision. So perhaps more slack is given to truly see what the organization has at the QB decision. It’s a different investment from that which occurs in college.

In the case of Leonard, you already paid. He’s here. He’s already gone after this season other than a medical redshirt. Now Freeman and the staff are just deciding how best to win the game today. It’s not apples to apples.

 

[mbd11]

Coan took a lot of crap when in fact he's been by far the best of the transfer QB's at ND. His immobility - due, I believe, to his foot injury at Wisconsin where he'd been a decent runner as he'd also been as an attack guy in lacrosse in high school -- hampered him, no question.

But he delivered the ball and with GREAT ACCURACY. Four TD passes in his first game at FSU in a comeback win plus another comeback win against V-Tech, I believe.

GAMER.

Coan had his moments, but I'll take Hartman over him. Hartman had better mobility and got rid of the ball quicker. He made quick decisions. Coan held the ball too long sometimes and took too many sacks. He was sacked 32 times that year. Hartman was only sacked 14 times last year. Now, you could argue that Hartman's OL was better (and it was), but I still feel like his quick decision making was one of his strengths. It wasn't always the right decision (as we saw with some of the interceptions), but it was quick.

 

[savvyandsassier]

A professional organization is different from a college team. In college, the coaches are the roster managers. That’s not the case in professional sports.

So the NFL head coach is subject to influence from the front office by default even though the coach is working in concert with them. The front office is part of the “program”.

If the NFL team drafts a QB in the first round, that could be a 20 year decision. So perhaps more slack is given to truly see what the organization has at the QB decision. It’s a different investment from that which occurs in college.

In the case of Leonard, you already paid. He’s here. He’s already gone after this season other than a medical redshirt. Now Freeman and the staff are just deciding how best to win the game today. It’s not apples to apples.

I'm sorry I'm not following you. So I would just say that I think MF might be even more than, or at least every bit as tempted as a professional coach to stubbornly balk at a QB change, essentially for the exact same reasons, and regardless of the 'sunk cost'. Because MF just could not bring himself to bench him, not because he still thought RL was the better QB in his most neutral professional opinion, but rather because his judgement was deluded by the circumstance where he brought this player in himself, and doesn't want admit he was wrong. Or that it's not working out or whatever.

So that's what I'm saying. You seem to be saying that it's different in the NFL, because they would have even more money invested, and so that would be worse somehow. Which I don't feel has any bearing or serves your argument. MF has all the temptation he needs in his current scenario to bungle and blunder the situation, if he continues to play RL when he shouldn't. Having said all that I would definitely start Angeli this week, if for no other reason than RL is injured. So we'll put a healthy, capable QB out there in Angeli and see if we can get some better offense going at the same time. And then go from there.

 

[FightingIrish44]

I'm sorry I'm not following you. So I would just say that I think MF might be even more than, or at least every bit as tempted as a professional coach to stubbornly balk at a QB change, essentially for the exact same reasons, and regardless of the 'sunk cost'. Because MF just could not bring himself to bench him, not because he still thought RL was the better QB in his most neutral professional opinion, but rather because his judgement was deluded by the circumstance where he brought this player in himself, and doesn't want admit he was wrong. Or that it's not working out or whatever.

So that's what I'm saying. You seem to be saying that it's different in the NFL, because they would have even more money invested, and so that would be worse somehow. Which I don't feel has any bearing or serves your argument. MF has all the temptation he needs in his current scenario to bungle and blunder the situation, if he continues to play RL when he shouldn't. Having said all that I would definitely start Angeli this week, if for no other reason than RL is injured. So we'll put a healthy, capable QB out there in Angeli and see if we can get some better offense going at the same time. And then go from there.

No worries. Even I thought my post was a little word salad-y haha.

You: “judgement was deluded by the circumstance where he brought this player in himself, and doesn't want admit he was wrong. Or that it's not working out or whatever.”

That very well may end up being the case, but I was only addressing the NIL aspect regarding Freeeman and Leonard; not the other reasons for which a coach may or may not make a QB change.

It’s not hard to put myself in Freeman’s shoes. If it were me, I wouldn’t give a crap who was getting what NIL or what donors think if I don’t play “their” guy. I’m playing whoever I think gives me the best chance to win the upcoming game.

 

[savvyandsassier]

No worries. Even I thought my post was a little word salad-y haha.

You: “judgement was deluded by the circumstance where he brought this player in himself, and doesn't want admit he was wrong. Or that it's not working out or whatever.”

That very well may end up being the case, but I was only addressing the NIL aspect regarding Freeeman and Leonard; not the other reasons for which a coach may or may not make a QB change.

It’s not hard to put myself in Freeman’s shoes. If it were me, I wouldn’t give a crap who was getting what NIL or what donors think if I don’t play “their” guy. I’m playing whoever I think gives me the best chance to win the upcoming game.

Well I don't know how they do in the NFL, or exactly just what pressure they're under to play or not play especially prominent players. But I was also trying to put myself in MF's shoes, biased as I definitely am at the moment given how our playoff hopes are almost already shattered in week two, and immediately the prospect leaps to mind that MF might stick with his guy notwithstanding the underwhelming efforts of the first two weeks. Which is fine, it's certainly his prerogative and maybe that's the right move. But I think it's certainly fair to say that maybe it's not.

One thing you know MF's gotta be thinking is we can't lose to Purdue this week. I certainly hope he is. He's not on any hot seat, but a 1-2 start with losses to NIU and Purdue would be a disaster just the same....

 

[4-4-3]

But I'm assuming those same donors, like us here on this board, want to win? So if the guy they paid a lot of money for isn't getting the job done, they'd be okay with replacing him?

Yes, they want to win, NO QUESTION.

But here's the rub.

If you bring in someone at a HIGH PRICE, might your REASONING as to if he should be pulled or not be affected by the money YOU'VE ALREADY LAID OUT? If you're NOT out of pocket, you're only going on performance. But if you've laid out cash, that can EASILY color your decision in a way where HOPIUM factors into the equation in a way it otherwise would not.

In short, it can make you LESS LIKELY to pull the trigger when UNBIASED EVIDENCE says that YOU SHOULD.

It's a CONFLICT OF INTEREST and leaves you NEGOTIATING WITH YOURSELF.

Hoping against hope.

 

[sjb75]

Yes, they want to win, NO QUESTION.

But here's the rub.

If you bring in someone at a HIGH PRICE, might your REASONING as to if he should be pulled or not be affected by the money YOU'VE ALREADY LAID OUT? If you're NOT out of pocket, you're only going on performance. But if you've laid out cash, that can EASILY color your decision in a way where HOPIUM factors into the equation in a way it otherwise would not.

In short, it can make you LESS LIKELY to pull the trigger when UNBIASED EVIDENCE says that YOU SHOULD.

It's a CONFLICT OF INTEREST and leaves you NEGOTIATING WITH YOURSELF.

Hoping against hope.

Pure nausea.

 

[4-4-3]

Coan had his moments, but I'll take Hartman over him. Hartman had better mobility and got rid of the ball quicker. He made quick decisions. Coan held the ball too long sometimes and took too many sacks. He was sacked 32 times that year. Hartman was only sacked 14 times last year. Now, you could argue that Hartman's OL was better (and it was), but I still feel like his quick decision making was one of his strengths. It wasn't always the right decision (as we saw with some of the interceptions), but it was quick.

You can make a case for either of them, though Hartman's overall stats were slightly better.

But Coan was never embraced the way Hartman was, so expectations were lower. Yet, he played on a better team.

Hartman was billed as a gamechanger -- which didn't prove out -- and in my view, OVERHYPED from the get-go.

A kind of Justin Timberlake of QB's.

Yet, I don't dispute that he PLAYED WELL.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Well I don't know how they do in the NFL, or exactly just what pressure they're under to play or not play especially prominent players. But I was also trying to put myself in MF's shoes, biased as I definitely am at the moment given how our playoff hopes are almost already shattered in week two, and immediately the prospect leaps to mind that MF might stick with his guy notwithstanding the underwhelming efforts of the first two weeks. Which is fine, it's certainly his prerogative and maybe that's the right move. But I think it's certainly fair to say that maybe it's not.

One thing you know MF's gotta be thinking is we can't lose to Purdue this week. I certainly hope he is. He's not on any hot seat, but a 1-2 start with losses to NIU and Purdue would be a disaster just the same....

Again though, I was only talking about the NIL being a factor in playing Leonard. That’s ludicrous to me.

You mentioned being biased because of the damaged playoff hopes. That’s the thing. So many people are just pissed because ND lost to NIU and the playoff hopes have taken a severe hit. Now a below average passing game performance is seen as the worst thing ever and he sucks.

If Greathouse doesn’t drop that deep ball (not Leonard’s fault), Leonard would have one more completion and about 30 more passing yards in his stats. That first INT could have easily just fallen incomplete, not to say that it was acceptable QB play. If just those two plays turn out better for ND, ND very likely wins and Leonard is mostly forgiven despite his second INT and some other issues. But now because they lost, fans want blood. Of course questioning Leonard is fair, but I think there’s no doubt that the average fan view of Leonard would be better had ND won.

The coaches are going off of way more nuance and history than the fans are. They’re not going to overreact based on one below average performance.

 

[Patrirish]

Yes, they want to win, NO QUESTION.

But here's the rub.

If you bring in someone at a HIGH PRICE, might your REASONING as to if he should be pulled or not be affected by the money YOU'VE ALREADY LAID OUT? If you're NOT out of pocket, you're only going on performance. But if you've laid out cash, that can EASILY color your decision in a way where HOPIUM factors into the equation in a way it otherwise would not.

In short, it can make you LESS LIKELY to pull the trigger when UNBIASED EVIDENCE says that YOU SHOULD.

It's a CONFLICT OF INTEREST and leaves you NEGOTIATING WITH YOURSELF.

Hoping against hope.

Unlike the NFL, the college coach has the ultimate authority in deciding who plays

 

[4-4-3]

Unlike the NFL, the college coach has the ultimate authority in deciding who plays

I take your point, but will they always have the INTESTINAL FORTITUDE to exercise that authority?

A guy like Freeman looks to me SUSCEPTIBLE TO PRESSURE. I'm just speculating here for the sake of discussion, but I'm more than familiar with INFORMAL CHANNELS OF COMMUNICATION.

Plus, Freeman may have been the one most vociferously URGING FUNDERS that Leonard, for instance, IS THE GUY. So, besides the money issue itself, there's the COMPOUNDING egg-on-face/loss-of-face knock-on-effect as well.

I can't see how in the end it can't help but be -- to whatever extent -- a COMPLICATING FACTOR.

 

[tbonesays]

That first INT could have easily just fallen incomplete, not to say that it was acceptable QB play.

It was pass interference, and a terrible decision.

 

[NDinNJ]

I saw him keep the ball on an option play at Wisconsin for some yards although he’s not exactly fleet of foot. He was pulled early in that Va Tech game. I think it was understandable not because of Coan but more to spark up the offense. Then Coan comes in cool as a cucumber and leads ND down for the tying touchdown and he made a nice play on the two point conversion.

He also played darn well in the bowl game but the defense blew the game. I think Coan was a championship caliber player.

I think it was wise to bring in all three transfer QB’s who started for ND though the jury is still out on Leonard (I happen to believe it was still a very sound decision to bring him in even if the process may not have been).

Not bringing in a proven QB for 2022 ended up being to the team’s detriment and I think that could have been seen before the season. I do understand why they rolled with Buchner though.

Now people are mad at the portal decisions even though they clearly worked out in 2021 and 2023 in my opinion.

They worked out in 2021 and 2023? Notre Dame played just 1 top 25 opponent in 2021, and lost to that G5 team at HOME BY 2 scores. 2021 was by far the weakest schedule in modern ND history.

2023 worked out how? That team had 3 losses on its way to a tax slayer type bowl. Is the standard for the ND fan base now? 3 losses and it's all good?

 

[mbd11]

Yes, they want to win, NO QUESTION.

But here's the rub.

If you bring in someone at a HIGH PRICE, might your REASONING as to if he should be pulled or not be affected by the money YOU'VE ALREADY LAID OUT? If you're NOT out of pocket, you're only going on performance. But if you've laid out cash, that can EASILY color your decision in a way where HOPIUM factors into the equation in a way it otherwise would not.

In short, it can make you LESS LIKELY to pull the trigger when UNBIASED EVIDENCE says that YOU SHOULD.

It's a CONFLICT OF INTEREST and leaves you NEGOTIATING WITH YOURSELF.

Hoping against hope.

And that's called a sunk cost, when you've already spent the money. So ideally, it shouldn't factor into your decision-making.

 

[mbd11]

You can make a case for either of them, though Hartman's overall stats were slightly better.

But Coan was never embraced the way Hartman was, so expectations were lower. Yet, he played on a better team.

Hartman was billed as a gamechanger -- which didn't prove out -- and in my view, OVERHYPED from the get-go.

A kind of Justin Timberlake of QB's.

Yet, I don't dispute that he PLAYED WELL.

Hartman had more hype, yes. And it was well-known he made a fair amount of NIL money. I think Coan came in before the NIL stuff blew up. So that probably affected their expectations, in the minds of fans.

 

[FightingIrish44]

They worked out in 2021 and 2023? Notre Dame played just 1 top 25 opponent in 2021, and lost that G5 team at HOME BY 2 scores. 2021 was by far the weakest schedule in modern ND history.

2023 worked out how? That team had 3 losses on its way to a tax slayer type bowl. Is the standard for the ND fam base now? 3 losses and it's all good?

It’s a team game. Did Joe Alt not work out at left tackle in 2023 because the team lost three games?

 

[savvyandsassier]

Again though, I was only talking about the NIL being a factor in playing Leonard. That’s ludicrous to me.

You mentioned being biased because of the damaged playoff hopes. That’s the thing. So many people are just pissed because ND lost to NIU and the playoff hopes have taken a severe hit. Now a below average passing game performance is seen as the worst thing ever and he sucks.

If Greathouse doesn’t drop that deep ball (not Leonard’s fault), Leonard would have one more completion and about 30 more passing yards in his stats. That first INT could have easily just fallen incomplete, not to say that it was acceptable QB play. If just those two plays turn out better for ND, ND very likely wins and Leonard is mostly forgiven despite his second INT and some other issues. But now because they lost, fans want blood. Of course questioning Leonard is fair, but I think there’s no doubt that the average fan view of Leonard would be better had ND won.

The coaches are going off of way more nuance and history than the fans are. They’re not going to overreact based on one below average performance.

I think it's a little bit more in your face than that. The shitty offense thus far. The playoff hype was real, justified or not, Angeli was/is a very viable option the whole time, absolutely true. And RL came in with the book on him being injury prone and unproven as a passer, as far as the potential negatives go, which is a narrative that has held true, and cost us a game already.

I don't know what to say about woulda coulda shoulda. That's true about the dropped pass. But the int is not eligible for that treatment, it was too egregious. And as far as a 'just because they lost' sentiment goes, that would be the entire point. We lost to NIU. The defense totally did its job. The offense shit the bed, and RL has been true to form thus far, getting hurt, and just not being good enough a passer.

As far as the coaches' superior nuance, which of course they would be in ample possession of, both as coaches, and coaches for this team in particular.... But unless Angeli sucks in practice, and the coaches know all too well his bowl performance was a fluke, I think anyone could make this call. I'm guessing that's why fans, myself included, are so vociferous. It feels like you can't go wrong. We can't beat Purdue with Steve Angeli? RL's injured to boot, let alone his lackluster play. That alone would be reason enough.

 

[mmboys07]

I never bought into Riley Leonard or Sam Hartman last year. My reasons are logical. Look at their recruiting profile. Look at the offers they had coming out of high school. They both ended up at the schools they were at for a reason, because they were average to below average QB's. I'm not referring to their rankings because those can be flawed, but look at what schools offered them scholarships.

Meanwhile most on this forum and other forums have been overlooking Angeli. Look at Angeli's recruiting profile and offer list. Compare the three, and it's easy to see the coaches made major mistakes bringing in a one and done rental QB and anointing them the starter without a REAL QB competition. To me that alone is reason to fire Freeman.

I find it very difficult to believe that Angeli is not a better QB than Hartman or Leonard. Just look at Angeli's numbers in the limited playing time he's had. He's accurate, can move, makes his reads, and has an arm. The critics will say, but he's only played against 2nd team defenses. NIU starters are less talented than most 2nd team P5 defenses. Riley Leonard has been inaccurate, has shown he has a weak arm, and is not as mobile as everyone said he was. A real QB competition would have born this out. That's on MF and the coaching staff.

I am not sure about Angeli. Lasf year I was one of those beating the drum for him. to play. Then I saw him in some mop up scenarios and I thought he looked slow and he didnt have a very quick arem/release. But, maybeI am wrong. But, I do agree I would like to find out. Maybe hewill play some against Purdue??

 

[savvyandsassier]

Re the NIL piece, Pete Sampson offered on his POST-DEBACLE PODCAST -- words to the effect -- that there would be no thought of not starting Riley against Purdue as he'd cost a lot of money to bring in, and what message would it send to donors, whom they wish to tap again in the future, if Riley got benched.

NIL may indeed be corrupting the process of deciding who should start at quarterback. This will be ROUNDLY DENIED, I imagine, the first time the question is posed to Freeman, but then Sampson is a savvy guy, and I don't think he'd make this comment if he hadn't heard the topic discussed by someone who would know or might even be concerned about it

I hadn't even thought of that angle. I was just thinking this was MF's boy, his big prize QB transfer. Even though he already had one in SH with mixed results. I guess on account of TB and Pyne just weren't good enough. And now it's RL's turn with probably even more hype, and more expertctations. So naturally he'd be hesitant to pull him. Because it reflects upon him. Even though if your goal is the playoff, things have already begun to skew sharply in the opposite direction with RL at the helm. So maybe you need to think again.

But you're suggesting it's more strategic that. We have to think about the donors' more capricious sensibilities, perhaps. We can't let them think we don't know what we're doing, and blowing their wad on a QB who's on the bench after two games with the rest of the season nearly a formality already. Yeah, I guess that totally could be the case as well.

 

[FightingIrish44]

I think it's a little bit more in your face than that. The shitty offense thus far. The playoff hype was real, justified or not, Angeli was/is a very viable option the whole time, absolutely true. And RL came in with the book on him being injury prone and unproven as a passer, as far as the potential negatives go, which is a narrative that has held true, and cost us a game already.

I don't know what to say about woulda coulda shoulda. That's true about the dropped pass. But the int is not eligible for that treatment, it was too egregious. And as far as a 'just because they lost' sentiment goes, that would be the entire point. We lost to NIU. The defense totally did its job. The offense shit the bed, and RL has been true to form thus far, getting hurt, and just not being good enough a passer.

As far as the coaches' superior nuance, which of course they would be in ample possession of, both as coaches, and coaches for this team in particular.... But unless Angeli sucks in practice, and the coaches know all too well his bowl performance was a fluke, I think anyone could make this call. I'm guessing that's why fans, myself included, are so vociferous. It feels like you can't go wrong. We can't beat Purdue with Steve Angeli? RL's injured to boot, let alone his lackluster play. That alone would be reason enough.

You evaluate the individual’s performance irrespective of whether or not you lost.

The defense didn’t totally do it’s job in my and other people’s opinion. It’s more nuanced than just the 16 points on the board.

I think Riley was a more proven passer at Duke, especially when you consider his worth in the run game.

Perhaps ND wouldn’t beat Purdue with Angeli. Maybe ND would. Same thing with Leonard. No player is guaranteed to have a good or bad game.

I think people are over looking the sub par offensive line.

 

[savvyandsassier]

You evaluate the individual’s performance irrespective of whether or not you lost.

The defense didn’t totally do it’s job in my and other people’s opinion. It’s more nuanced than just the 16 points on the board.

I think Riley was a more proven passer at Duke, especially when you consider his worth in the run game.

Perhaps ND wouldn’t beat Purdue with Angeli. Maybe ND would. Same thing with Leonard. No player is guaranteed to have a good or bad game.

I think people are over looking the sub par offensive line.

You can do whatever the hell you want, and justify your methodology and your quality control in whatever way suits you. Don't lose to effin' Purdue, how about that? And if you start RL under these circumstances, and we lose again, and you carefully explain your reasons for so doing, no one's going to give a shit nor should they. That's cover your ass corporate protocol. It only exists to protect bunglers, not to prevent bungling. His play on the merits after two weeks, even if we'd made that 62-yarder, was already suspect.

You really are a RL apologist, to use that unfortunate term. You're even dragging the defense into this on his behalf, who held them to 16 points. What do you want, three and out every single series? Come on now. How about 31 points out of this RL-lead offense by the fourth quarter, and the game is never in doubt. That's typically a comfortable expectation in a matchup like that. And of course no one knows if Angeli will do any better, should we consult an oracle?

Anyways, the pressure is on for this game. I guess I'll have to eat crow if RL lights it up. And I have nothing against him at all, and was fired up heading into the A&M game. I'm mainly just disgruntled at losing to NIU, and he was the QB, and he's injured and apparently will be all season long, so what are we doing? Staying the course!

 

[FightingIrish44]

You can do whatever the hell you want, and justify your methodology and your quality control in whatever way suits you. Don't lose to effin' Purdue, how about that? And if you start RL under these circumstances, and we lose again, and you carefully explain your reasons for so doing, no one's going to give a shit nor should they. That's cover your ass corporate protocol. It only exists to protect bunglers, not to prevent bungling. His play on the merits after two weeks, even if we'd made that 62-yarder, was already suspect.

You really are a RL apologist, to use that unfortunate term. You're even dragging the defense into this on his behalf, who held them to 16 points. What do you want, three and out every single series? Come on now. How about 31 points out of this RL-lead offense by the fourth quarter, and the game is never in doubt. That's typically a comfortable expectation in a matchup like that. And of course no one knows if Angeli will do any better, should we consult an oracle?

Anyways, the pressure is on for this game. I guess I'll have to eat crow if RL lights it up. And I have nothing against him at all, and was fired up heading into the A&M game. I'm mainly just disgruntled at losing to NIU, and he was the QB, and he's injured and apparently will be all season long, so what are we doing? Staying the course!

An apologist to me is someone who is unreasonable in defense of something. I don’t think I’m that. I’m freely acknowledging that he did not have a good game in the passing game against NIU although I don’t think he was as terrible as others — and that’s only natural because few people are going to watch every snap 10-30 times like I do. Sorry, but not even talking about myself, I’d rather take someone’s opinion who gave a close rewatch of the game than some ignorant fan who just watched the game live and is now all pissy because Notre Dame lost (not necessarily directed at you).

My whole deal is that you win and lose as a team. You brought up the defense. I offered that the defense was not that that good in order to demonstrate nuance. NOT to deflect blame away from Leonard towards the defense!

Here’s some more nuance: ND’s defense against Navy was not as good as the scoreboard would indicate in both 2021 and 2023. It was better than the scoreboard would indicate against Navy in 2022. Why? Nuance! If one wants to effectively evaluate, you don’t just look at the scoreboard or W/L record.

You yourself are admitting that you’re basically just going off of winning the NIU and Purdue games. It’s not a sound way to evaluate an individual player.

I could be giving a very similar defense of Angeli or any other QB. I did defend Angeli when one of the board clowns took a gratuitous shot at Angeli by calling him “checkdown Steve”. I gave a nuanced, detailed response but ended up deleting it.

Few people would have wanted to read me bashing Freeman in 2021 and 2022 and yet here I am in 2024 defending him. I call it like I see it. But now lots of people are bashing him because I guess its okay now that he lost to a third, vastly inferior opponent. Where were all of these geniuses in 2021 and 2022? No where because they can’t see nuance.

 

[4-4-3]

Hartman had more hype, yes. And it was well-known he made a fair amount of NIL money. I think Coan came in before the NIL stuff blew up. So that probably affected their expectations, in the minds of fans.

I also think a lot of it had to do with Hartman's MATINEE GOOD LOOKS, the necklace he wore containing a part of one of his ribs and all of that HAIR AND BEARD.

Today's version of the 50's Hornung-esque GOLDEN BOY. Or BRAD PITT playing ACHILLES in the movie, TROY.

 

[4-4-3]

And that's called a sunk cost, when you've already spent the money. So ideally, it shouldn't factor into your decision-making.

"IDEALLY," it shouldn't, but as a PRACTICAL MATTER it happens all the time. People not only DEFEND the original decision by continuing with it, they often DOUBLE DOWN as well.

In fact, the inability to write off or walk away from a decision that has or is in the process of producing what looks like a NEGATIVE OUTCOME leads to something called the SUNK COST FALLACY.

From Project Management firm ASANA:

"The sunk cost fallacy is our tendency to continue with something we’ve invested money, effort, or time into—even if the current costs outweigh the benefits. When we fall prey to the sunk cost fallacy, we make irrational decisions that are against our best interest—essentially digging ourselves into a deeper and deeper hole."

And THIS:

"When we let the sunk cost fallacy influence our decisions, we often make bad choices that hurt us. Instead of using logic, we fall prey to a vicious cycle that often includes an escalation of our commitments—we continue to invest time, money, and energy into something, even if it’s not in our best interest. The more we invest, the more committed we are—and the more resources we funnel into that initial bad decision."

To me, someone INEXPERIENCED like Freeman, operating in the glare of one of sport's MOST UNFORGIVING SPOTLIGHTS, is just the kind of guy who'd be MOST SUSCEPTIBLE -- make that VULNERABLE -- to the SUNK COST FALLACY.

At least, that's my view from 30,000 feet.