And anyone who sells their ticket should be denied a chance to buy another ticket, ever! 
There!
There!
Clemson game next year is most important since the U in 1988
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he was certainly undermanned and in over his head in that game. i honestly think had the two coaches switched teams the outcome would not have been much different. i would agree that the biggest downfall in kellys tenure at ND has been the inability to compete with teams better than or favored over them. it's rarely happened.
Agreed 10001 percent.And anyone who sells their ticket should be denied a chance to buy another ticket, ever!
That "game of the century " bullshit against FSU in 93 set up this sell out your brethren mentality. It filled the heads with dancing sugar plums to the tune of some students getting $1500 per ticket.
Since then a huge game has these selfish ignorant fans dreaming of dollar bills.
Nebraska taking over the stadium. Georgia taking over the stadium. Come on!!!
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I think it is hilarious that the agenda "Brian Kelly can't win big games" is being pushed. There is plenty of evidence to show that he can win big games but that he also has had his tail handed to him as well. I know that in order to fit the narrative some of you posters push you like to say that the 2012 OU was the last and only big game that Kelly and the Irish won, but that is completely wrong.
The issue is what your opinion of a big game is. Then we want to get into his record versus top 25 teams.
Records last 3 years vs. final AP Top 25:
Swinney 14-2
Saban 14-3
Kelly 8-7
Smart 7-7
Gundy 5-5
Helton 6-7
Leach 4-5
Petersen 4-5
Fisher 6-8
Chryst 5-7
Franklin 5-7
Frost 4-6
Malzahn 6-10
Harbaugh 5-9
So I guess all 8 of those wins were against teams that sucked? Were those not big games?
"Well they were not big enough games to constitute me changing my stance, we got throttled by Michigan and cant win a close game on the road"- Classic jargon.
Sorry to break it to all of you but Brian Kelly is a hell of a coach and its been an outstanding 10 years.
The issue is what your opinion of a big game is. Then we want to get into his record versus top 25 teams.
Records last 3 years vs. final AP Top 25:
Swinney 14-2
Saban 14-3
Kelly 8-7
Smart 7-7
Gundy 5-5
Helton 6-7
Leach 4-5
Petersen 4-5
Fisher 6-8
Chryst 5-7
Franklin 5-7
Frost 4-6
Malzahn 6-10
Harbaugh 5-9
So I guess all 8 of those wins were against teams that sucked? Were those not big games?
"Well they were not big enough games to constitute me changing my stance, we got throttled by Michigan and cant win a close game on the road"- Classic jargon.
Sorry to break it to all of you but Brian Kelly is a hell of a coach and its been an outstanding 10 years.
i think a fair question is how many times has a Kelly team beaten a favorite in a "big" game. ? unfortunately for all of us it's been rare. i think he's a very good coach just not great.
in fairness in how many of those 8 games was ND the underdog ?
I was thinking more in line with a one time destination trip for Arkansas fans with a football game squeezed in. Not sure how they travel though.
Again, not everyone will share your opinion of what constitutes a "big game".
In their opinion it is a metric other than the AP top 25.
Logically, if they shared the same opinion as you there would be no need to dissuade them.
Therefore, again, this line of discourse will result in frustration on both sides as you are essentially asking others to adopt your opinion on the matter when clearly they feel differently.
If an "anti-Kelly" poster wishes to dispatch of him it is likely that they have sights on a national championship and not just 10-2 seasons. Again, everyone has different goals for the program.
I, for example, hold the goal of a national championship. Therefore, while records against top 25 teams is certainly an interesting data point and one can certainly observe the correlation, there are obviously better data points that would drill further down into the subject.
In this day and age with the playoffs it would be highly unlikely that a coach could successfully ensnare a national championship had they not defeated at least two AP top 5 teams at the time of kickoff.
Therefore, were you to assuage my opinion on the matter you would need to procure a statistic which showed Kelly having a favorable record vs teams ranked with the AP top 5 at the time of kick off. In absence of any such demonstrated success and should the data point actually indicate a negative trend I would have difficulty drawing a conclusion that Kelly would be a coach capable of leading ND to a championship.
If your goal is to convince others that Kelly is a "hell of a coach" or will possibly win a national championship it will be very difficult for you as there is limited data to support your stance.
One's opinion cannot be expected to be held as an uncontested truth for all others to agree upon.
I trust after this exhaustive explanation you can now follow our collective plight on the manner in which you choose to convince us to the contrary and how it may generate some frustrations.
vs Top 5. 0-4 under Brian Kelly (3 losses by 14+ pts)
See I dont have to type out a political paper every time to give an answer.
Top 5 0-4 under Brian Kelly (3 losses by 14+ pts).
See I dont have to type out a political paper every time to give an answer.
I think that is unfair to say that just because we are favored then it does not constitute it as a big game.
Thank you for the response.
I think you can now get a sense of why others may view Kelly's tenure with a healthy bit of trepidation should the goal be attainment of a national championship.
But I would agree that more 10-2 seasons are possible given ND may typically face around four top 25 opponents per year and Kelly appears to split those matchups.
One area where he has improved the past several years is not losing to teams outside of the top 25 which is also an area where he had previously shown a deficiency through the majority of his tenure.
Given the data, one could almost assuredly conclude that he will lose to Clemson and then a split with Wisconsin and USC is likely. The caliber of teams such as Stanford and Louisville likely remain unclear at this time.
Should too many opponents matriculate into the top 25 off the strength of their coaches elevating the program in the offseason then perhaps a 9-3 or 8-4 record may not be out of the question. Luckily, the schedule the past three years has served to insulate us from such a predicament.
If Arkansas' program was in good shape, I would expect them to make a big showing in South Bend. Given that their program is in shambles right now, and the game at ND will only be the second game under the new regime, I am not so sure how much enthusiasm their fan base will have for the game. I think they will buy their ticket allocation, maybe a thousand or two tix on the secondary market. But I'd be shocked if this was a Georgia or Nebraska style large scale pilgrimage to the holy land.
Is Top 5 at time of game, or season end? I am pretty sure we beat an MSU team that went 13-1 and ended up 3rd.
I must admit that in 1988 I had zero confidence in a ND team coached by Lou Holtz at that time. What had he showed me in 1987? He could coach a team to a 8-1 record then lose the last three. Blowout loses to Miami and A&M plus that filthy, whining, crappy penn state team. Out from the ashes of my no expectations came a ND victory over fire hydrant like Jimmy Johnson's Miami Pukecanes. I believed then ND was finally back. Ara's prediction finally came to pass, "Out of the ashes of this defeat will rise a great ND team." I hope Clemson enters ND Stadium as the undefeated/defending national champions. I like our lads chances playing at home this season.
Time of game. Though I think it should matter where teams end up, but then that means im reaching for significance
78, We gotta stop going to who’s the tallest midget argument. No question BK is the tallest. The men are hungry for that big win. I think the Irish can beat Clemson. I hope Clemson comes into South Bend unbeaten. The Irish if anything else are due!
IMHO, in judging SOS you look at an opponent's final record and ranking. In judging whether a game is "big", or not, you go by the record and ranking at the time of the game. "Big" is purely a present tense phenomenon. That designation doesn't change retroactively.
While I appreciate your sentiment and admire your general optimism regarding our in reality bleak situation with Kelly as coach, a significant distinction must be made.
Going into the 1988 season Holtz was still early into his tenure so one may not hold in contempt another's opinion that he could potentially lead ND to a national championship.
Had another opined after the relative success of Kelly's 2012 season that he was incapable of winning a national championship you may have felt compelled to feel empathy for his resulting sting of the Alabama game outcome; however, could also simultaneously cast him as irrational and overly emotional to reach that conclusion because the data at that point was trending in a manner in which a national championship could be probable. At a minimum, there was still not enough data present at the time to strongly sway one's opinion in either direction. A rational being would likely still be a bit ambivalent towards Kelly at that time--if not skewing a tad towards optimism with the recently secured impressive recruiting class and a young and promising quarterback whom had only yet exhausted his freshman year of eligibility.
However, in this year of our Lord 2020AD, and a many ten years into Kelly's tenure, one can reasonably conclude that he will not procure a national championship for the university.
There are simply too many data points indicating to the contrary.
While anything is possible, the belief that Kelly can win a national championship at ND is at this point an irrational and emotional stance if one is to use logic and a good bit of common sense. It would be no different than being totally opposed to the idea that Kelly couldn't win a national championship post-2012--which, as we have previously highlighted above, was also an emotional and irrational stance at the time.
So you use time of the game for the wins against top 25 then? That would include 3-9 Georgia tech, Virginia tech from last year, Virginia this year. Nothing too impressive. Temple, navy, etc.
There is plenty to be happy about with what Brain Kelly is done, and in perspective I think you negative outlook people think highly of a blue blood program that was irrelevant for 20 plus years until Kelly got here.
It is funny that 10 wins is not good enough for a program that has only done is 7 times since 1993 and 5 of those 7 times were done by this coach. Seriously you people are irrational. Notre Dame in the real world has been a mediocre program at best since 93, and even before that if you really look at it we won 1 championship in the 80's, 2 in the 70's and 1 in the 60's. The rest are pre 1950. Notre Dame benefited from a monopoly of media attention spanning from 1920 till now brain washing people that they are the stand alone peak of college football.
I love our tradition and it is by far the best in the country, but it is clear that many of you posters complaining have absolutely no clue about this program. You can say all you want that this is more excuses, I do no care. If you look at it Notre Dame is doing more now than it ever has, and that is irrefutable, unless of course you want to bring up history dating back more than 30 years.
Complain all you want but Notre Dame was an outdated program until Kelly turned it around. And we are finally reaching elite status.
If you don't know the difference then you just don't have a touch with the feel of the moment.
Florida State...the pick penalty game
Clemson at night
Georgia home and away
Bama in 12
OSU in 15
Clemson in the playoffs
Not one victory in Ann Arbor
@Miami there years ago
These were all the spit in the giants face moments.
The hype, the opponent, the prize...all of it...
An average coach if given that many chances would have an upset in there along the way. Maybe two.
BK went Zero for...and counting.
With College football at it highest level of parity how can that be? Not even once? Come on. How do you not even by way of accident have one upset victory in there from that list.
I'll tell you how. A coach that's completely in over his head in that moment. A coach afraid of the big moment rather than relishing the chance to shock the world.
We must crawl before we can walk. Walking be a title.
Right now we can't even roll over onto our stomach let alone crawl.
Ten years and counting and not one victory like an above example. Ten years at Notre Dame mind you.
That's pretty astounding....or pathetic.
You say "10 years at Notre Dame mind you" like that suppose to mean something? This program has been so below average and rests on tradition and championships pre 1950, it is you who do not have a real grasp on the moment if you cannot clearly see that BK has done more for this program than just win some games.
You think Notre Dame is this gold standard program steeped in tradition spanning generations, 1 title in 3 decades? 4 titles in 50 years? Does not seem all that great to me. Embrace the now.
To be fair, one would reasonably classify the 2012 Oklahoma as such a game and Kelly won that.
ND arguably outplayed 2014 FSU and at least the 2017/2019 UGA games were spirited affairs for the defense.
Now focusing in with a more acute lense there are certain unquestionable issues that Kelly does not appear capable of addressing based upon the historical norms:
1) He and his staff get thoroughly out strategized and out prepared by elite coaching staffs leading up to bowl/playoff games
2) He is unable to procure elite recruiting classes in any manner of succession or volume that may result in enough accumulated talent to beat an elite team were said acquired talent also accompanied by a commensurate level of strategy and preparation by the coaching staff (troubling enough, the other paradox presented above)
A looser argument could be made that Kelly does not prepare his team well for hostile environments; however, I think that point gets a bit over amplified due to the sheer unadulterated incompetence that was on display for the 2017 Miami and 2019 Michigan games and to a certain extent the first quarter and half of the 2015 Clemson game.
In any event, the concern or definition of whether he has won "big games" in the past is a bit trivial at this point and we should spend more time highlighting and discussing the above clearly defined weaknesses as they present a clear and present obstacle to the football program ever winning a national championship under Kelly.
Also, our so resistant to be swayed contemporaries can find no quarters for which to seek refuge on these particular topics as they leave them with scant opportunities for plausible deniability or the arguing of semantics because the evidence in opposition to their stance is so damning and so greatly swayed to our corner that any attempt to do so on their part clearly gives them away as overly emotional and irrational on the subject of Kelly's ability to procure a national championship at ND.
Did Nick Saban not adopt the Alabama program in a similar downtrodden position around a similar time that Kelly took over the position at ND? Curious how those two programs progressed differently under their respective leadership.
And if a lack of recent historical success should be such an arduous and insurmountable obstacle to overcome, what shall we make of Dabo Swinney's success at Clemson with but one national championship prior to his arrival and that lone championship coming seven years prior to ND's most recent?
To circle back to Nick Saban once more, what was one to make of his success at LSU? A proud historical program no doubt but still one who by any measure historical or recent would have found ND's success enviable.
We might also note Robert Stoop's inheritance of the Oklahoma program and although not to open wounds that are now just starting to heal, Pete Carroll's inheritance and resulting success at USC.
I would be interested in hearing how these coaches' plights varied so greatly from Kelly's as from my perspective they were taking over very similar programs to ND at the time (historically proud programs with some inconsistent recent success but not nearly enough by historical standards).
I believe you might experience difficulty in undertaking such an endeavor and the request was made more in jest.
At this point in time it is clear that you are, as one might say,....."grasping at straws".
It is time to give up this charade and come to peace and acceptance that although Brian Kelly is clearly at a caliber above Robert Davie, Tyrone Lionel Willingham, and Charles Weis he is in no manner in the same discussion as coaches such as those mentioned above. And we as ND fans should reasonably wish for ND to pursue or otherwise hope to identify a coach of that caliber.
You make some solid points but I hardly think I am grasping a straws.
Historical relevance/irrelevance is not an obstacle it is just a fact. Mike Shula was awful at Bama, but the program still manged to put together a better stretch from 1990 to 2007 (when nick was hired) than Notre Dame. I would also point out that Bama's facilities were nowhere near as outdated as Notre Dames and though Bama did not mange to win a title in those 17 seasons they still updated facilities ten fold and won 10+ games 7 times while winning 7 bowl games, something Notre Dame has done in the same stretch of 30 years (1990-2007 ND manages 5 10+ win seasons and 3 bowl wins).
USC won a lot with Pere Carroll but they still have not recovered from the mess he left. Sorry, but as a ND fan I am not willing to cheat and bend rules to win it all then turn around and stink it up for 10 years.
The point is while those programs you mentioned in OU and Bama had rich traditions and were also facing struggles, there were not nearly as outdated as our ND program. Could their acceptance into the next era also be a reason for more success? I think so.
Yes, you need a coach that can come in a win but Brain Kelly's job was not just about winning games, it was completely turning around and modernizing an aging outdated program. Kelly has had more on his plate than many other blue blood programs, without him we could easily be Nebraska. Notre Dame was so reluctant to much of anything when it comes to change until Brain Kelly. Do you think our partnership with the ACC was not pushed by Kelly?
I think that a lot of posters do not appreciate BK for all the things he has brought to this program, and though I have not hesitation to concede that he has failed at times as a coach I think that to cast him off as average or incapable of winning big games is just not correct.
By the way to compare any coach to arguable the greatest coach of all time in Saban will always make the opposing coach look feeble. Saban is a once in a life time coach, Brain Kelly is not, does that mean that Brain Kelly is just dust in the wind? No.
Scott Van Pelt had a great segment the other night talking about how unrealistic fans are. For me, I just have a lot of admiration for Brain Kelly and it just baffles me that people can just trash him left and right. Same with Ian Book.
In no way shape or form would I trade the last 10 years of Kelly (of course I would love to have Bama or Clemson or even Ohio States winning percentage and Championships) this was a decade of success that this program desperately needed to get back to not just stability but relevance to being a legit top 10 program year in and year out.
Could you provide some clarity on this point? Are you saying your true preference would be for this past decade as opposed to having won a national championship? Or had Kelly, rather than, Saban, Meyer, or Swinney as our coach? I am admittedly quite taken aback by the comment as I am currently interpreting it.
It is noted that the program had slipped behind peers in the arms race; however, I would not solely credit Kelly for improvements here. Weis was a big champion for these efforts and things such as a football player only training table and other perks were well in the works prior to Kelly's arrival.
If anything, I observe Kelly and ND to still be late adopters of innovative compared to some of the coaching staffs at the forefront such as Clemson (ND staff visited with Clemson staff this past offseason for guidance on such matters) and of course all the overly zealous SEC schools.
Again, I think we are still evaluating Kelly in comparison to the poor hires that proceeded him, rather than, evaluating him on his own merits.
The vast majority of coaches would have also (and Weis already was) enacted the improvements Kelly has made to off the field aspects of the program.
I think if you could perhaps make the paradigm shift in your mind that ND just made three historically bad hires in a row but this occurrence was a huge aberration it might make you be a bit more objective on the actual job Kelly has done during his tenure and may also help assuage your fears that ND would hire a coach below Kelly's caliber as a replacement.
He's won 10 plus 5 times. We've played in the championship and have made it to the playoff. We've finished top 10 6 times. Those are his merits, he's a good coach.
Maybe if you'd spend as much time reading and understanding what people post as you do trying to sound intelligent by squeezing in every word from the dictionary you would have better luck. You're the only person on here who doesn't get what I'm saying. You don't have to agree, but fir god sakes man this facade of intelligence has backed you into a corner. Anyone with the intelligence you are trying to display wouldn't waste their time with verbiage like you do on a free message board.
Sorry fir your complex brother.
If your threshold is beating the weak and getting beat by the strong he's dynO`mite.
Better than Willimgham? I think there's a traffic cone and possibly a turnstile better than Willimgham.
Charlie Weis? See above. *
*C Dub actually beat a top 5 team and had the most competitive major bowl game since the 96 Orange bowl (Holtz last year)
The ND schedule is a shadow of the gauntlet it used to be but the fact remains in ten years he's never beat a top 5 nor been competitive in a major bowl.
The above elite high reward games he's lost every single one.
I say again how does that happen?
You want to shout top 10 program yearly...if that's so then we should have won at least two of the list I mentioned. Should have been at least competitive in 1 major bowl...right? I mean come on..if we really are top 10 we'd have been on the right side of at least one of the games listed.
He's not a good coach.
He's fools gold....as in having you still fooled he's gold.
You sure love accusing people of saying things they aren't.
I've never once said anything of the like nor referencing the past. I don't compare coaches as it's unfair to both in the comparisons.
My problem is simply this...
Can we play with the very best in the country? That's all I want. Good things will fall in place if we can in fact play with anyone.
Regular season we are right there. BK makes sure to do a thing or two to defy a victory but we're very close.
The post season when both parties have a month to prepare is when the train really derails. There's no way to avoid the post season going forward and if the powers that be would ultimately like a championship they will in fact have to do it in the post season. As is now we aren't even close enough to take advantage of a fortunate bounce, call, turnover etc....we come off the bus pissing our pants playing lucky to be invited to the game. The opponent is playing like they damn well deserve to be there.
That says everything of the BK era and it's pathetic.
Can you please name a list of teams in the last 10 years to go through a completely brutal schedule year in and out? Why punish the Irish for what everyone else is doing?
It's poor across the board so I don't see how it's fair to champion other coaches for similar accomplishments as Bk.
Far from pathetic but I mean that's your prerogative. This was totally based off of your quote "10 years at ND mind you" what is that suppose to mean? It clearly means ND is better than the 10 years Kelly put together, but history proves otherwise.
Call it easy scheduling but the guys won games and it's in comparison to his counter parts. He's the somewhere in the 3-6 rank of winningest coach in the decade. No comparison to who's come before that's relevant facts.
It is just not to your standards, fair. But it's not pathetic or any other ridiculous over exaggeration you commonly throw around.
It is still unclear to me.
You would prefer the above results over the last ten years to a national championship?
You would prefer Kelly coaching ND for the past ten years in lieu of Saban, Meyer, or Swinney?
A simple Yes/No response will suffice for the above inquiries. No accompanying explanation is necessary.
" In no way shape or form would I trade the last 10 years of Kelly (of course I would love to have Bama or Clemson or even Ohio States winning percentage and Championships)" if you cannot use deductive reasoning to answer that question with my exact quote then I don't know why you act so intelligent.
Did I say I wouldn't trade it for anything? No I didn't. Just proof your reading comprehension skills are low.
No way does Clemson take over the stadium. Clemson fans have had 5 straight ACC championships in Charlotte and 9 playoff games in the last five years. Clemson isn’t a national presence. Fans don’t have money to keep this up.
I figured you'd read between the lines since you enjoy speaking for others so frequently....
The part about the schedule has to do with your promotion of 10 wins.
The problem with your 10 win plateau is that all of our losses over the course of your 10 win rallying cry have been against the best of the schedule.
I say again...I'm not sure what accomplishment this is. Beating the teams we should beat and losing to the tough opponents means what exactly?
In any other job of the world this kind of performance would be considered average. He's doing what he's supposed to be doing but certainly not doing any extra. He's just another average employee in the workforce.
I'm sorry I just don't agree with your sentiment or condescension. I'm just having you answer for what you type, I don't think it's really all that you're making it to be. And you failed to answer the question posed in the counter argument.
Alabama did exactly the same thing we did this year and they paid the price. Beat up on sub par teams and lost to the best teams on their schedule. Then beat an "awful" Michigan team according to the majority of posters here, yet they are one of the best teams in the country because of past performance. So really who isn't in the moment here? Season by season that's how you have to look at it.
I agree, we should beat those teams, we should have beaten those teams IMO. It happens and you move forward, at least we can salvage 10 plus wins every year, that wasn't the case when Kelly got the job.
Synopsis: You don't like Brain Kelly he's average and has proven so. 10 wins is not good enough, our schedule is built for 10 wins a year.
I'm not celebrating mediocrity I'm literally looking at the numbers as they are over a decade and they are ranked right behind 2 of the greatest coaches ever. But again, you have every excuse as to why those number are "fluffed" and don't hesitate to bring up every single failure.
I have honestly never seen you post one thing positive about this program or coach. Do your thing but that's just not the way I operate, I enjoy this teams success and plan to continue to enjoy it. I can also be critical.
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