4-4-3

[4-4-3]

I'm gonna go ahead and crown you resident ND football history expert. You seem to have the best grip on past teams of any poster on the board.

Question: Can you tell me the last ND QB that went undefeated for an entire season vs ranked teams?

I think it was Tony Rice in 88 -- UM, Miami, USC, WVU. And not only were they all ranked, all four were also top 10 and three of them, top 3.

I believe Rice also went 6-1 against ranked teams the following year, while Mirer went 5-2, I believe, in 90.

But, please, no crowns. I'd have to return it and as with Percival refusing the GRAIL, it would probably lead to a PLAGUE.

Besides, that particular crown will forever belong to LOU SOMOGYI.

 

[NDinNJ]

To be clear, my negativity re Freeman’s hire is part of a broader issue:

• If ND had an ALL-IN approach to its football program, it wouldn’t have to worry so much about losing recruits by not selecting a SPECIFIC coach – one by the way who a) might not be the best option and b) may be TOO POPULAR with the players so that the university, in effect, SUBS OUT much of the hiring process. Instead, it would have numerous qualified candidates at all times.
• Yes, it might have taken a season or two to RE-STABILIZE recruiting – or MAYBE NOT – but either way, the ND I would like to see would be a RECRUTING power, year on year REGARDLESS of who the coach was as was the case with Faust – 3 number one classes -- followed by Holtz’s 4 number one classes.
• In other words, the INSTITUTION must have its OWN SELLING POWER, apart from who its coach is. It should be ND SELLING ND and not just MARCUS FREEMAN doing it because, to me, that’s an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE DIFFERENT.
• Take OSU since the mid-90’s. They’ve been through a number of coaches. Has recruiting EVER faltered? No. But at ND where coaches have to play THREAD THE NEEDLE, the “fit,” “personality” and “values set” of the coach himself is expected to serve as the EQUALIZING X FACTOR. I mean, what a lot of EXTRA WORK and DRAMA. And to WHAT END?
• Plus, it premises the program’s ENTIRE CHANCES on nabbing that ever-elusive ONE MESSIAH COACH.
• Re Freeman, what matters as much to me is that should he prove successful, it will have been the result of a distant three-point shot rather than something higher percentage and closer to the basket. Sometimes, you get lucky and your BLIND PIG actually finds his ACORN, but, AS AN APPROACH, it’s the very DEFINITION of POOR PLANNING. And by BLIND PIG, I mean ND.

Kelly:

• Kelly’s OU and USC victories were, FOR ME, just as impressive AT THE TIME. There’s usually some RECENCY BIAS, so what happened last Saturday will almost ALWAYS have a leg up in the impressiveness sweepstakes than something from five or ten years ago. It’s fresher and SEEMINGLY more significant. And simply because it’s NOW. But how will it play over time? Watershed moment or random great game?
• And as for Kelly losing the BIG ONES – notably, for me, the two games to Bama and the two to Clemson – I don’t see how ND could have won EVEN ONE OF THEM – and regardless of how fired-up they could have gotten – given the TALENT DIFFERENTIALS. And I’d be willing to bet that Freeman wouldn’t have won those games either simply BY DINT of being Marcus Freeman.

The Clemson victory was NO DOUBT IMPRESSIVE, but ND certainly had the TALENT to beat North Carolina, Syracuse and BYU, not to mention Marshall and Stanford, neither of which it did. And both the OSU and other OSU game were, in the end, LOSSES. So, half a loaf is STILL not a loaf.

But the real point is TALENT. Freeman has beaten one really good team with TOP-TEN TALENT. That he’s ALLEGEDLY gotten the team up for big games more than Kelly did – even were it true – means nothing UNLESS YOU WIN THOSE AND MOST FUTURE GAMES.

By the way, did you see any LACK OF FIRE in Baton Rouge Saturday night? Was that not a BIG GAME win? Were those LSU players not MOTIVATED? Who’s their coach? Brian Kelly. Might LSU be a BETTER ENVIRONMENT for Brian Kelly to coach in? Early days, but he WILL get the talent.

But to finish my point, it was, to me, the COMPARATIVE POUND FOR POUND LACK OF TALENT that ULTIMATELY cost ND those butt whippings to Alabama and Clemson as anyone who watched those games COMPLETELY UNDERSTOOD at the time and, I HOPE, hasn’t forgotten.

The key thing now is HOW WELL WILL FREEMAN DO WITH THE WIND AT HIS BACK? He’s now officially MADE HIS BONES. Can he perform as well in the lead? We’ll see. Faust and Weis couldn’t but Freeman isn’t necessarily either. But if he does do well, I’ll certainly credit him, though whatever it is many think he has, I STILL HAVEN’T SEEN. But then, I could be DEAD WRONG.

In the meantime, thanks for the GOOD-FAITH offer, but GIVE THAT TRAIN SEAT to whomever wants it.

YAwN 🥱
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Golson5]

To be clear, my negativity re Freeman’s hire is part of a broader issue:

• If ND had an ALL-IN approach to its football program, it wouldn’t have to worry so much about losing recruits by not selecting a SPECIFIC coach – one by the way who a) might not be the best option and b) may be TOO POPULAR with the players so that the university, in effect, SUBS OUT much of the hiring process. Instead, it would have numerous qualified candidates at all times.
• Yes, it might have taken a season or two to RE-STABILIZE recruiting – or MAYBE NOT – but either way, the ND I would like to see would be a RECRUTING power, year on year REGARDLESS of who the coach was as was the case with Faust – 3 number one classes -- followed by Holtz’s 4 number one classes.
• In other words, the INSTITUTION must have its OWN SELLING POWER, apart from who its coach is. It should be ND SELLING ND and not just MARCUS FREEMAN doing it because, to me, that’s an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE DIFFERENT.
• Take OSU since the mid-90’s. They’ve been through a number of coaches. Has recruiting EVER faltered? No. But at ND where coaches have to play THREAD THE NEEDLE, the “fit,” “personality” and “values set” of the coach himself is expected to serve as the EQUALIZING X FACTOR. I mean, what a lot of EXTRA WORK and DRAMA. And to WHAT END?
• Plus, it premises the program’s ENTIRE CHANCES on nabbing that ever-elusive ONE MESSIAH COACH.
• Re Freeman, what matters as much to me is that should he prove successful, it will have been the result of a distant three-point shot rather than something higher percentage and closer to the basket. Sometimes, you get lucky and your BLIND PIG actually finds his ACORN, but, AS AN APPROACH, it’s the very DEFINITION of POOR PLANNING. And by BLIND PIG, I mean ND.

Kelly:

• Kelly’s OU and USC victories were, FOR ME, just as impressive AT THE TIME. There’s usually some RECENCY BIAS, so what happened last Saturday will almost ALWAYS have a leg up in the impressiveness sweepstakes than something from five or ten years ago. It’s fresher and SEEMINGLY more significant. And simply because it’s NOW. But how will it play over time? Watershed moment or random great game?
• And as for Kelly losing the BIG ONES – notably, for me, the two games to Bama and the two to Clemson – I don’t see how ND could have won EVEN ONE OF THEM – and regardless of how fired-up they could have gotten – given the TALENT DIFFERENTIALS. And I’d be willing to bet that Freeman wouldn’t have won those games either simply BY DINT of being Marcus Freeman.

The Clemson victory was NO DOUBT IMPRESSIVE, but ND certainly had the TALENT to beat North Carolina, Syracuse and BYU, not to mention Marshall and Stanford, neither of which it did. And both the OSU and other OSU game were, in the end, LOSSES. So, half a loaf is STILL not a loaf.

But the real point is TALENT. Freeman has beaten one really good team with TOP-TEN TALENT. That he’s ALLEGEDLY gotten the team up for big games more than Kelly did – even were it true – means nothing UNLESS YOU WIN THOSE AND MOST FUTURE GAMES.

By the way, did you see any LACK OF FIRE in Baton Rouge Saturday night? Was that not a BIG GAME win? Were those LSU players not MOTIVATED? Who’s their coach? Brian Kelly. Might LSU be a BETTER ENVIRONMENT for Brian Kelly to coach in? Early days, but he WILL get the talent.

But to finish my point, it was, to me, the COMPARATIVE POUND FOR POUND LACK OF TALENT that ULTIMATELY cost ND those butt whippings to Alabama and Clemson as anyone who watched those games COMPLETELY UNDERSTOOD at the time and, I HOPE, hasn’t forgotten.

The key thing now is HOW WELL WILL FREEMAN DO WITH THE WIND AT HIS BACK? He’s now officially MADE HIS BONES. Can he perform as well in the lead? We’ll see. Faust and Weis couldn’t but Freeman isn’t necessarily either. But if he does do well, I’ll certainly credit him, though whatever it is many think he has, I STILL HAVEN’T SEEN. But then, I could be DEAD WRONG.

In the meantime, thanks for the GOOD-FAITH offer, but GIVE THAT TRAIN SEAT to whomever wants it.

Or... they hired the best guy for the job

 

[Notre Dame du Lac]

There’s a massive issue under freeman playing unranked teams. I expect him to fix that issue starting this weekend.

 

[NDinNJ]

To be clear, my negativity re Freeman’s hire is part of a broader issue:

• If ND had an ALL-IN approach to its football program, it wouldn’t have to worry so much about losing recruits by not selecting a SPECIFIC coach – one by the way who a) might not be the best option and b) may be TOO POPULAR with the players so that the university, in effect, SUBS OUT much of the hiring process. Instead, it would have numerous qualified candidates at all times.
• Yes, it might have taken a season or two to RE-STABILIZE recruiting – or MAYBE NOT – but either way, the ND I would like to see would be a RECRUTING power, year on year REGARDLESS of who the coach was as was the case with Faust – 3 number one classes -- followed by Holtz’s 4 number one classes.
• In other words, the INSTITUTION must have its OWN SELLING POWER, apart from who its coach is. It should be ND SELLING ND and not just MARCUS FREEMAN doing it because, to me, that’s an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE DIFFERENT.
• Take OSU since the mid-90’s. They’ve been through a number of coaches. Has recruiting EVER faltered? No. But at ND where coaches have to play THREAD THE NEEDLE, the “fit,” “personality” and “values set” of the coach himself is expected to serve as the EQUALIZING X FACTOR. I mean, what a lot of EXTRA WORK and DRAMA. And to WHAT END?
• Plus, it premises the program’s ENTIRE CHANCES on nabbing that ever-elusive ONE MESSIAH COACH.
• Re Freeman, what matters as much to me is that should he prove successful, it will have been the result of a distant three-point shot rather than something higher percentage and closer to the basket. Sometimes, you get lucky and your BLIND PIG actually finds his ACORN, but, AS AN APPROACH, it’s the very DEFINITION of POOR PLANNING. And by BLIND PIG, I mean ND.

Kelly:

• Kelly’s OU and USC victories were, FOR ME, just as impressive AT THE TIME. There’s usually some RECENCY BIAS, so what happened last Saturday will almost ALWAYS have a leg up in the impressiveness sweepstakes than something from five or ten years ago. It’s fresher and SEEMINGLY more significant. And simply because it’s NOW. But how will it play over time? Watershed moment or random great game?
• And as for Kelly losing the BIG ONES – notably, for me, the two games to Bama and the two to Clemson – I don’t see how ND could have won EVEN ONE OF THEM – and regardless of how fired-up they could have gotten – given the TALENT DIFFERENTIALS. And I’d be willing to bet that Freeman wouldn’t have won those games either simply BY DINT of being Marcus Freeman.

The Clemson victory was NO DOUBT IMPRESSIVE, but ND certainly had the TALENT to beat North Carolina, Syracuse and BYU, not to mention Marshall and Stanford, neither of which it did. And both the OSU and other OSU game were, in the end, LOSSES. So, half a loaf is STILL not a loaf.

But the real point is TALENT. Freeman has beaten one really good team with TOP-TEN TALENT. That he’s ALLEGEDLY gotten the team up for big games more than Kelly did – even were it true – means nothing UNLESS YOU WIN THOSE AND MOST FUTURE GAMES.

By the way, did you see any LACK OF FIRE in Baton Rouge Saturday night? Was that not a BIG GAME win? Were those LSU players not MOTIVATED? Who’s their coach? Brian Kelly. Might LSU be a BETTER ENVIRONMENT for Brian Kelly to coach in? Early days, but he WILL get the talent.

But to finish my point, it was, to me, the COMPARATIVE POUND FOR POUND LACK OF TALENT that ULTIMATELY cost ND those butt whippings to Alabama and Clemson as anyone who watched those games COMPLETELY UNDERSTOOD at the time and, I HOPE, hasn’t forgotten.

The key thing now is HOW WELL WILL FREEMAN DO WITH THE WIND AT HIS BACK? He’s now officially MADE HIS BONES. Can he perform as well in the lead? We’ll see. Faust and Weis couldn’t but Freeman isn’t necessarily either. But if he does do well, I’ll certainly credit him, though whatever it is many think he has, I STILL HAVEN’T SEEN. But then, I could be DEAD WRONG.

In the meantime, thanks for the GOOD-FAITH offer, but GIVE THAT TRAIN SEAT to whomever wants it.

Funny, you discuss Kelly's Big game LOSSES to Bama and Clemson and CONVENIENTLY omit the BIG GAME LOSSES to Miami 41-8, and Stanford 38-20 in 2017.

You also NEVER address the 4-8 DEBACLE in 2016. YEAR 7 of Kelly's tenure where MOST coaches would have been FIRED

I could punch holes in everyone of your posts, but i've refrained because quite honestly iyour not worth my time. I'd prefer to simply continue reading your drivel prior to retiring fir the evening, because it helps put me to sleep.

 

[NDinNJ]

To be clear, my negativity re Freeman’s hire is part of a broader issue:

• If ND had an ALL-IN approach to its football program, it wouldn’t have to worry so much about losing recruits by not selecting a SPECIFIC coach – one by the way who a) might not be the best option and b) may be TOO POPULAR with the players so that the university, in effect, SUBS OUT much of the hiring process. Instead, it would have numerous qualified candidates at all times.
• Yes, it might have taken a season or two to RE-STABILIZE recruiting – or MAYBE NOT – but either way, the ND I would like to see would be a RECRUTING power, year on year REGARDLESS of who the coach was as was the case with Faust – 3 number one classes -- followed by Holtz’s 4 number one classes.
• In other words, the INSTITUTION must have its OWN SELLING POWER, apart from who its coach is. It should be ND SELLING ND and not just MARCUS FREEMAN doing it because, to me, that’s an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE DIFFERENT.
• Take OSU since the mid-90’s. They’ve been through a number of coaches. Has recruiting EVER faltered? No. But at ND where coaches have to play THREAD THE NEEDLE, the “fit,” “personality” and “values set” of the coach himself is expected to serve as the EQUALIZING X FACTOR. I mean, what a lot of EXTRA WORK and DRAMA. And to WHAT END?
• Plus, it premises the program’s ENTIRE CHANCES on nabbing that ever-elusive ONE MESSIAH COACH.
• Re Freeman, what matters as much to me is that should he prove successful, it will have been the result of a distant three-point shot rather than something higher percentage and closer to the basket. Sometimes, you get lucky and your BLIND PIG actually finds his ACORN, but, AS AN APPROACH, it’s the very DEFINITION of POOR PLANNING. And by BLIND PIG, I mean ND.

Kelly:

• Kelly’s OU and USC victories were, FOR ME, just as impressive AT THE TIME. There’s usually some RECENCY BIAS, so what happened last Saturday will almost ALWAYS have a leg up in the impressiveness sweepstakes than something from five or ten years ago. It’s fresher and SEEMINGLY more significant. And simply because it’s NOW. But how will it play over time? Watershed moment or random great game?
• And as for Kelly losing the BIG ONES – notably, for me, the two games to Bama and the two to Clemson – I don’t see how ND could have won EVEN ONE OF THEM – and regardless of how fired-up they could have gotten – given the TALENT DIFFERENTIALS. And I’d be willing to bet that Freeman wouldn’t have won those games either simply BY DINT of being Marcus Freeman.

The Clemson victory was NO DOUBT IMPRESSIVE, but ND certainly had the TALENT to beat North Carolina, Syracuse and BYU, not to mention Marshall and Stanford, neither of which it did. And both the OSU and other OSU game were, in the end, LOSSES. So, half a loaf is STILL not a loaf.

But the real point is TALENT. Freeman has beaten one really good team with TOP-TEN TALENT. That he’s ALLEGEDLY gotten the team up for big games more than Kelly did – even were it true – means nothing UNLESS YOU WIN THOSE AND MOST FUTURE GAMES.

By the way, did you see any LACK OF FIRE in Baton Rouge Saturday night? Was that not a BIG GAME win? Were those LSU players not MOTIVATED? Who’s their coach? Brian Kelly. Might LSU be a BETTER ENVIRONMENT for Brian Kelly to coach in? Early days, but he WILL get the talent.

But to finish my point, it was, to me, the COMPARATIVE POUND FOR POUND LACK OF TALENT that ULTIMATELY cost ND those butt whippings to Alabama and Clemson as anyone who watched those games COMPLETELY UNDERSTOOD at the time and, I HOPE, hasn’t forgotten.

The key thing now is HOW WELL WILL FREEMAN DO WITH THE WIND AT HIS BACK? He’s now officially MADE HIS BONES. Can he perform as well in the lead? We’ll see. Faust and Weis couldn’t but Freeman isn’t necessarily either. But if he does do well, I’ll certainly credit him, though whatever it is many think he has, I STILL HAVEN’T SEEN. But then, I could be DEAD WRONG.

In the meantime, thanks for the GOOD-FAITH offer, but GIVE THAT TRAIN SEAT to whomever wants it.

Funny, you discuss Kelly's Big game LOSSES to Bama and Clemson and CONVENIENTLY omit the BIG GAME LOSSES to Miami 41-8, and Stanford 38-20 in 2017.

You also NEVER address the 4-8 DEBACLE in 2016. YEAR 7 of Kelly's tenure where MOST coaches would have been FIRED

I could punch holes in every one of your posts, but i've refrained because quite honestly you're not worth my time. I'd prefer to simply continue reading your drivel prior to retiring for the evening, because it helps put me to sleep.

 

[mrwigglesby21]

To be clear, my negativity re Freeman’s hire is part of a broader issue:

• If ND had an ALL-IN approach to its football program, it wouldn’t have to worry so much about losing recruits by not selecting a SPECIFIC coach – one by the way who a) might not be the best option and b) may be TOO POPULAR with the players so that the university, in effect, SUBS OUT much of the hiring process. Instead, it would have numerous qualified candidates at all times.
• Yes, it might have taken a season or two to RE-STABILIZE recruiting – or MAYBE NOT – but either way, the ND I would like to see would be a RECRUTING power, year on year REGARDLESS of who the coach was as was the case with Faust – 3 number one classes -- followed by Holtz’s 4 number one classes.
• In other words, the INSTITUTION must have its OWN SELLING POWER, apart from who its coach is. It should be ND SELLING ND and not just MARCUS FREEMAN doing it because, to me, that’s an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE DIFFERENT.
• Take OSU since the mid-90’s. They’ve been through a number of coaches. Has recruiting EVER faltered? No. But at ND where coaches have to play THREAD THE NEEDLE, the “fit,” “personality” and “values set” of the coach himself is expected to serve as the EQUALIZING X FACTOR. I mean, what a lot of EXTRA WORK and DRAMA. And to WHAT END?
• Plus, it premises the program’s ENTIRE CHANCES on nabbing that ever-elusive ONE MESSIAH COACH.
• Re Freeman, what matters as much to me is that should he prove successful, it will have been the result of a distant three-point shot rather than something higher percentage and closer to the basket. Sometimes, you get lucky and your BLIND PIG actually finds his ACORN, but, AS AN APPROACH, it’s the very DEFINITION of POOR PLANNING. And by BLIND PIG, I mean ND.

Kelly:

• Kelly’s OU and USC victories were, FOR ME, just as impressive AT THE TIME. There’s usually some RECENCY BIAS, so what happened last Saturday will almost ALWAYS have a leg up in the impressiveness sweepstakes than something from five or ten years ago. It’s fresher and SEEMINGLY more significant. And simply because it’s NOW. But how will it play over time? Watershed moment or random great game?
• And as for Kelly losing the BIG ONES – notably, for me, the two games to Bama and the two to Clemson – I don’t see how ND could have won EVEN ONE OF THEM – and regardless of how fired-up they could have gotten – given the TALENT DIFFERENTIALS. And I’d be willing to bet that Freeman wouldn’t have won those games either simply BY DINT of being Marcus Freeman.

The Clemson victory was NO DOUBT IMPRESSIVE, but ND certainly had the TALENT to beat North Carolina, Syracuse and BYU, not to mention Marshall and Stanford, neither of which it did. And both the OSU and other OSU game were, in the end, LOSSES. So, half a loaf is STILL not a loaf.

But the real point is TALENT. Freeman has beaten one really good team with TOP-TEN TALENT. That he’s ALLEGEDLY gotten the team up for big games more than Kelly did – even were it true – means nothing UNLESS YOU WIN THOSE AND MOST FUTURE GAMES.

By the way, did you see any LACK OF FIRE in Baton Rouge Saturday night? Was that not a BIG GAME win? Were those LSU players not MOTIVATED? Who’s their coach? Brian Kelly. Might LSU be a BETTER ENVIRONMENT for Brian Kelly to coach in? Early days, but he WILL get the talent.

But to finish my point, it was, to me, the COMPARATIVE POUND FOR POUND LACK OF TALENT that ULTIMATELY cost ND those butt whippings to Alabama and Clemson as anyone who watched those games COMPLETELY UNDERSTOOD at the time and, I HOPE, hasn’t forgotten.

The key thing now is HOW WELL WILL FREEMAN DO WITH THE WIND AT HIS BACK? He’s now officially MADE HIS BONES. Can he perform as well in the lead? We’ll see. Faust and Weis couldn’t but Freeman isn’t necessarily either. But if he does do well, I’ll certainly credit him, though whatever it is many think he has, I STILL HAVEN’T SEEN. But then, I could be DEAD WRONG.

In the meantime, thanks for the GOOD-FAITH offer, but GIVE THAT TRAIN SEAT to whomever wants it.

I can't disagree with anything you've put forth here. And I'll add that if I give credit to MF for the way he showed up against the OSU's then I need to give credit to Kelly for the way he showed up @FSU (Winston) and @Clemson (Watson).

Also, perhaps the institutional structure you speak of (opening bullet points), is the reason Swarbrick felt more comfortable moving forward with Freeman. During the Weis years, I got the sense ND admin became more involved in building a recruiting department that allowed a coach to be plugged into, versus, having to be re-tooled with each new coach. The recruiting structure/foundation/business model is in place, just need to plug and play a dynamic recruiter. As for the day-to-day machinations (blueprint) of running a successful program, certainly ND/Swarbrick has the daily movements of Kelly/coaches/players thoroughly documented over the last 4 years. Of course, having the blueprint and implementing the blueprint are two totally different tasks.

Your customized 4-4-3 train-seat identifier has been removed.

 

[francade]

No I think 4-4-3 is right. Kelly was a master motivator and we sure looked it every big game we played. Lol. As I said, what player wouldn’t be super motivated when his coach says publicly before the nat’l title game that he wishes we were at the level of the team we were playing? You can slobber all over Kelly all you want, but his record sucked against the best competition, he lost multiple games w/ boneheaded decisions (the one to go for two up 11 was a doozy) or when he had rees throw a pick into the end zone when all we needed was a fg to win. We also lost to bad teams several times, and when we did lose a game, he ALWAYS blamed the players, never himself. When he left, he threw the entire program under the bus. Now, honestly, I couldn’t have cared less that he left, had he not bashed ND on the way out. Frankly, I was tired of his ceiling, so losing him was not a crushing blow to me one bit. Anyone that was satisfied w/ his tenure at ND doesn’t understand ND, no matter how old they are or how much they think they know about the history of the ND football program. He didn’t leave graciously, he left like a jackass, so feel free to keep slobbering, I’ll be rooting against him every game he coaches.

 

[Kontiki09]

To be clear, my negativity re Freeman’s hire is part of a broader issue:

• If ND had an ALL-IN approach to its football program, it wouldn’t have to worry so much about losing recruits by not selecting a SPECIFIC coach – one by the way who a) might not be the best option and b) may be TOO POPULAR with the players so that the university, in effect, SUBS OUT much of the hiring process. Instead, it would have numerous qualified candidates at all times.
• Yes, it might have taken a season or two to RE-STABILIZE recruiting – or MAYBE NOT – but either way, the ND I would like to see would be a RECRUTING power, year on year REGARDLESS of who the coach was as was the case with Faust – 3 number one classes -- followed by Holtz’s 4 number one classes.
• In other words, the INSTITUTION must have its OWN SELLING POWER, apart from who its coach is. It should be ND SELLING ND and not just MARCUS FREEMAN doing it because, to me, that’s an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE DIFFERENT.
• Take OSU since the mid-90’s. They’ve been through a number of coaches. Has recruiting EVER faltered? No. But at ND where coaches have to play THREAD THE NEEDLE, the “fit,” “personality” and “values set” of the coach himself is expected to serve as the EQUALIZING X FACTOR. I mean, what a lot of EXTRA WORK and DRAMA. And to WHAT END?
• Plus, it premises the program’s ENTIRE CHANCES on nabbing that ever-elusive ONE MESSIAH COACH.
• Re Freeman, what matters as much to me is that should he prove successful, it will have been the result of a distant three-point shot rather than something higher percentage and closer to the basket. Sometimes, you get lucky and your BLIND PIG actually finds his ACORN, but, AS AN APPROACH, it’s the very DEFINITION of POOR PLANNING. And by BLIND PIG, I mean ND.

Kelly:

• Kelly’s OU and USC victories were, FOR ME, just as impressive AT THE TIME. There’s usually some RECENCY BIAS, so what happened last Saturday will almost ALWAYS have a leg up in the impressiveness sweepstakes than something from five or ten years ago. It’s fresher and SEEMINGLY more significant. And simply because it’s NOW. But how will it play over time? Watershed moment or random great game?
• And as for Kelly losing the BIG ONES – notably, for me, the two games to Bama and the two to Clemson – I don’t see how ND could have won EVEN ONE OF THEM – and regardless of how fired-up they could have gotten – given the TALENT DIFFERENTIALS. And I’d be willing to bet that Freeman wouldn’t have won those games either simply BY DINT of being Marcus Freeman.

The Clemson victory was NO DOUBT IMPRESSIVE, but ND certainly had the TALENT to beat North Carolina, Syracuse and BYU, not to mention Marshall and Stanford, neither of which it did. And both the OSU and other OSU game were, in the end, LOSSES. So, half a loaf is STILL not a loaf.

But the real point is TALENT. Freeman has beaten one really good team with TOP-TEN TALENT. That he’s ALLEGEDLY gotten the team up for big games more than Kelly did – even were it true – means nothing UNLESS YOU WIN THOSE AND MOST FUTURE GAMES.

By the way, did you see any LACK OF FIRE in Baton Rouge Saturday night? Was that not a BIG GAME win? Were those LSU players not MOTIVATED? Who’s their coach? Brian Kelly. Might LSU be a BETTER ENVIRONMENT for Brian Kelly to coach in? Early days, but he WILL get the talent.

But to finish my point, it was, to me, the COMPARATIVE POUND FOR POUND LACK OF TALENT that ULTIMATELY cost ND those butt whippings to Alabama and Clemson as anyone who watched those games COMPLETELY UNDERSTOOD at the time and, I HOPE, hasn’t forgotten.

The key thing now is HOW WELL WILL FREEMAN DO WITH THE WIND AT HIS BACK? He’s now officially MADE HIS BONES. Can he perform as well in the lead? We’ll see. Faust and Weis couldn’t but Freeman isn’t necessarily either. But if he does do well, I’ll certainly credit him, though whatever it is many think he has, I STILL HAVEN’T SEEN. But then, I could be DEAD WRONG.

In the meantime, thanks for the GOOD-FAITH offer, but GIVE THAT TRAIN SEAT to whomever wants it.

Selective amnesia - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[NDinNJ]

No I think 4-4-3 is right. Kelly was a master motivator and we sure looked it every big game we played. Lol. As I said, what player wouldn’t be super motivated when his coach says publicly before the nat’l title game that he wishes we were at the level of the team we were playing? You can slobber all over Kelly all you want, but his record sucked against the best competition, he lost multiple games w/ boneheaded decisions (the one to go for two up 11 was a doozy) or when he had rees throw a pick into the end zone when all we needed was a fg to win. We also lost to bad teams several times, and when we did lose a game, he ALWAYS blamed the players, never himself. When he left, he threw the entire program under the bus. Now, honestly, I couldn’t have cared less that he left, had he not bashed ND on the way out. Frankly, I was tired of his ceiling, so losing him was not a crushing blow to me one bit. Anyone that was satisfied w/ his tenure at ND doesn’t understand ND, no matter how old they are or how much they think they know about the history of the ND football program. He didn’t leave graciously, he left like a jackass, so feel free to keep slobbering, I’ll be rooting against him every game he coaches.

Embarrassing losses weren't just limited to only the best competition, but most big games. 2017 Miami 41-8, 2017 Stanford 38-20, 2019 Michigan 45-14, 2021 Cincinnati Roster full of 2 and 3 stars 24-13.

 

[NDblitz]

I’ve not changed my mind on the Freeman hire, and last night’s game doesn’t change my opinion of MF and/or his future with ND.

In other words, I’m as SKEPTICAL as ever as there’s no telling, at this point, whether what happened on Saturday was simply a dynamic upside blip within the same range of probability that includes the Marshall and Stanford losses or an actual TREND REVERSAL.

Kelly said somewhere – and I’m PARAPHRASING – that he thought Freeman would be a success at some point, but that it didn’t mean NECESSARILY that he would be the long-awaited DIFFERENCE MAKER at ND.

I’m with Kelly on the second half of his comment, though I’m not convinced that Freeman will EVER be a BIG-TIME SUCCESS at all. I still don’t see the CHOPS. But if I’m wrong, I’ll SURELY ACKNOWLEDGE IT. I certainly don’t have MONEY on it.

I also wondered re the second half of that comment if Kelly believes that ANYONE can EVER be that REDEMPTIVE difference maker, given how ND ROLLS.

As for the game, ND played extremely well. I know many don’t think much of Rees, but, to me, it was one of the most brilliant displays of play calling I’ve witnessed. Clemson was completely outsmarted then beaten off the ball, PLAY AFTER PLAY AFTER PLAY.

Frankly, I don’t think Kelly ever experienced as dramatically SATISFYING a win, though I would rank his 2012 defeat of OU on the road and the 2017 victory over USC in South Bend as equally impressive.

The only NEGATIVE I came away with from the Clemson game was Clemson’s moving the ball rather easily in its last three drives, two of which resulted in TD’s and the third, in Morrison’s backbreaking interception on an underthrown ball.

So, if I’m USC’s DC, there may be interesting film information contained in those last three Clemson drives that may be of USE to me.

As for Kelly, it took him only ONE YEAR – using his motley assortment of transfers, underperforming holdovers and native Louisiana talent -- to beat SABAN and BAMA. And it should NOT have been surprising.

It certainly wasn't to Saban who called Kelly, THE LAST GREAT TACTICIAN IN COLLEGE FOOTBALL. A subject Saban might know something about.I teresring

Funny, you discuss Kelly's Big game LOSSES to Bama and Clemson and CONVENIENTLY omit the BIG GAME LOSSES to Miami 41-8, and Stanford 38-20 in 2017.

You also NEVER address the 4-8 DEBACLE in 2016. YEAR 7 of Kelly's tenure where MOST coaches would have been FIRED

I could punch holes in everyone of your posts, but i've refrained because quite honestly iyour not worth my time. I'd prefer to simply continue reading your drivel prior to retiring fir the evening, because it helps put me to sleep.

He cherry picks. Just like his Clemson game analysis. He’s dumb. Thinks he’s smart.

 

[NDblitz]

How about the 2019 Michigan rout

 

[savvyandsassier]

No I think 4-4-3 is right. Kelly was a master motivator and we sure looked it every big game we played. Lol. As I said, what player wouldn’t be super motivated when his coach says publicly before the nat’l title game that he wishes we were at the level of the team we were playing? You can slobber all over Kelly all you want, but his record sucked against the best competition, he lost multiple games w/ boneheaded decisions (the one to go for two up 11 was a doozy) or when he had rees throw a pick into the end zone when all we needed was a fg to win. We also lost to bad teams several times, and when we did lose a game, he ALWAYS blamed the players, never himself. When he left, he threw the entire program under the bus. Now, honestly, I couldn’t have cared less that he left, had he not bashed ND on the way out. Frankly, I was tired of his ceiling, so losing him was not a crushing blow to me one bit. Anyone that was satisfied w/ his tenure at ND doesn’t understand ND, no matter how old they are or how much they think they know about the history of the ND football program. He didn’t leave graciously, he left like a jackass, so feel free to keep slobbering, I’ll be rooting against him every game he coaches.

Whew! Where did this little diatribe come from?? You have yourself some serious BK derangement syndrome, sir. And I was thinking you were fairly composed, shall we say, compared to the rest of this sweaty mob. I guess I didn't quite have you pegged.....

 

[francade]

Savvy, I like your passion for ND and I laugh at a lot of your posts, so I’m not gonna get into w/ you about this. It’s as simple as you being able to get past how he left and how I didn’t like it. We can agree to disagree about his success and I appreciate that he righted the ship to some degree but was left wanting a little more. Why does it have to be one person right and the other wrong about whether or not ND fans root for him or not? Again, you can look past how he left and what he’s said about ND since, I’m gonna go ahead and not root for the guy, you can all you want. Do you not see how some ND fans can feel some bitterness towards how he left? It’s not a ‘girlfriend left me’ bitterness, it’s a ‘girlfriend left me and acted like an asshole about it’ bitterness. You see what I mean or no?

 

[NDblitz]

Actually. It was a 12 year relationship that was gong well and you came home to an empty house and a note saying. "I met a guy I think is hotter a couple days ago and I'm leaving" note. To be honest.

 

[francade]

Lol, well, it was going well but it’s not as though we fans weren’t looking for more too, correct?

 

[francade]

And he may think lsu is hotter than ND, but I certainly do not. That’s just me.

 

[NDblitz]

Lol, well, it was going well but it’s not as though we fans weren’t looking for more too, correct?

Yes. Freeman is like the hot younger chick with a great personality that moved in next door. And came over with a pizza and 6 pack after you got the news.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Savvy, I like your passion for ND and I laugh at a lot of your posts, so I’m not gonna get into w/ you about this. It’s as simple as you being able to get past how he left and how I didn’t like it. We can agree to disagree about his success and I appreciate that he righted the ship to some degree but was left wanting a little more. Why does it have to be one person right and the other wrong about whether or not ND fans root for him or not? Again, you can look past how he left and what he’s said about ND since, I’m gonna go ahead and not root for the guy, you can all you want. Do you not see how some ND fans can feel some bitterness towards how he left? It’s not a ‘girlfriend left me’ bitterness, it’s a ‘girlfriend left me and acted like an asshole about it’ bitterness. You see what I mean or no?

Okay, well, I don't think he did anything wrong at all. Not one time, his entire time at ND, other than the stupid QB controversy thing, which I think he brought onto himself and it almost cost him his job. But nobody ever mentions that. They just call him a scumbag and a piece of shit, and a horrible coach who sucks and is totally mediocre. As well as making up lies, essentially full-on smear campaign type lies about him.

Anyway, to my dying day I will stick with my theory, my hunch, that he only left because of just how intensely he eventually became hated and reviled by ND fans, even in spite of and perfectly coinciding with finally getting us to legit elite top-five program status, and maintaining it. He now stands as easily by a landslide the most hated coach in ND history. So he finally just left and accepted one of those job offers I'm sure he got every off season. It wasn't about winning a championship at a place like LSU, and all rest of that rhetoric he fed to the media. He was all set to finally win one at ND.... And I still remember after he passed Knute Rockne after we beat Purdue last season, it was almost like the haters were ready to burn his house down, loudly, publicly clamoring to have those wins stripped from the official record books to deny him the honor. Which is some sick shit right there, that is some legitimately sick-o shit. There was certainly no feeling of accomplishment or achievement or gratitude or nothing, and it showed on his face in the post-game interview. All he could do is allude to, in not so many words, how much the fans hated him, on what should have been an auspicious occasion and very proud moment....

It's very effed up. It's not a small thing, not merely just fans being fans. I've never seen anything like this in my entire time as a sports fan. LSU fans noticed it too, how this went well beyond the typical jilted fan syndrome. This relentless, harsh, vitriolic hostility and aggression and derision towards such a super successful coach, who's also a totally cool, good dude who you'd be proud to have leading your program. Only reason it's calmed down at all is because LSU is ranked #5, just beat mighty Bama, and are on a beeline to the SECCG in his first season....

So final thought I'm not sympathetic in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER to what any no-good toxic hater ND fan has to say about about BK. Not even the tiniest speck of sympathy. You don't have to love him as much as I do, but something went very wrong in the collective psyche of the online ND fanbase. And took a very dark turn....

 

[francade]

As I said, savvy, you may not have a problem w/ how he left, some do.

 

[Patrirish]

Okay, well, I don't think he did anything wrong at all. Not one time, his entire time at ND, other than the stupid QB controversy thing, which I think he brought onto himself and it almost cost him his job. But nobody ever mentions that. They just call him a scumbag and a piece of shit, and a horrible coach who sucks and is totally mediocre. As well as making up lies, essentially full-on smear campaign type lies about him.

Anyway, to my dying day I will stick with my theory, my hunch, that he only left because of just how intensely he eventually became hated and reviled by ND fans, even in spite of and perfectly coinciding with finally getting us to legit elite top-five program status, and maintaining it. He now stands as easily by a landslide the most hated coach in ND history. So he finally just left and accepted one of those job offers I'm sure he got every off season. It wasn't about winning a championship at a place like LSU, and all rest of that rhetoric he fed to the media. He was all set to finally win one at ND.... And I still remember after he passed Knute Rockne after we beat Purdue last season, it was almost like the haters were ready to burn his house down, loudly, publicly clamoring to have those wins stripped from the official record books to deny him the honor. Which is some sick shit right there, that is some legitimately sick-o shit. There was certainly no feeling of accomplishment or achievement or gratitude or nothing, and it showed on his face in the post-game interview. All he could do is allude to, in not so many words, how much the fans hated him, on what should have been an auspicious occasion and very proud moment....

It's very effed up. It's not a small thing, not merely just fans being fans. I've never seen anything like this in my entire time as a sports fan. LSU fans noticed it too, how this went well beyond the typical jilted fan syndrome. This relentless, harsh, vitriolic hostility and aggression and derision towards such a super successful coach, who's also a totally cool, good dude who you'd be proud to have leading your program. Only reason it's calmed down at all is because LSU is ranked #5, just beat mighty Bama, and are on a beeline to the SECCG in his first season....

So final thought I'm not sympathetic in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER to what any no-good toxic hater ND fan has to say about about BK. Not even the tiniest speck of sympathy. You don't have to love him as much as I do, but something went very wrong in the collective psyche of the online ND fanbase. And took a very dark turn....

You don’t think that making a declarative statement that he’s definitely staying at Notre Dame only to jump ship a week later is “not anything wrong” ?

Then you don’t know what being a man of your word is, you don’t know what character and integrity are !

What he did, how he did it and the timing are about as low as you can get

 

[savvyandsassier]

As I said, savvy, you may not have a problem w/ how he left, some do.

Oh, you don't say, huh? Well isn't that special.....

 

[4-4-3]

I can't disagree with anything you've put forth here. And I'll add that if I give credit to MF for the way he showed up against the OSU's then I need to give credit to Kelly for the way he showed up @FSU (Winston) and @Clemson (Watson).

Also, perhaps the institutional structure you speak of (opening bullet points), is the reason Swarbrick felt more comfortable moving forward with Freeman. During the Weis years, I got the sense ND admin became more involved in building a recruiting department that allowed a coach to be plugged into, versus, having to be re-tooled with each new coach. The recruiting structure/foundation/business model is in place, just need to plug and play a dynamic recruiter. As for the day-to-day machinations (blueprint) of running a successful program, certainly ND/Swarbrick has the daily movements of Kelly/coaches/players thoroughly documented over the last 4 years. Of course, having the blueprint and implementing the blueprint are two totally different tasks.

Your customized 4-4-3 train-seat identifier has been removed.

I've much more to say on all of this, but I will save it for another time.

I'll just say this. ND fans want Holtz results -- an NC plus two or three close misses? Then ND needs Holtz-like players.

In his heyday, Holtz's players were equal or better to ANY OTHER PROGRAM'S. By 1995, that was no longer true when it became PAINFULLY APPARENT that ND couldn't run with Eddie George and OSU for four quarters.

Kelly got as close as anyone could WITHOUT Holtz-level PLAYER DOMINANCE. And it's because he at least got SOME truly gifted players, and he could COACH.

Freeman is reputedly a BETTER RECRUITER. But doesn't ND still have the final say? Or will Freeman be granted SOFTER TERMS? Me, I have no idea. But just HOW FAR ND will bend on recruiting -- ASSUMING FREEMAN DELIVERS -- will be telling.

That and whether Freeman can actually coach to the tune of WINNING CONSISTENTLY.

We'll see.

 

[francade]

“I've much more to say on all of this, but I will save it for another time.”

Oh no, you mean we have to wait? We’ll all be on pins and needles.

 

[savvyandsassier]

I've much more to say on all of this, but I will save it for another time.

I'll just say this. ND fans want Holtz results -- an NC plus two or three close misses? Then ND needs Holtz-like players.

In his heyday, Holtz's players were equal or better to ANY OTHER PROGRAM'S. By 1995, that was no longer true when it became PAINFULLY APPARENT that ND couldn't run with Eddie George and OSU for four quarters.

Kelly got as close as anyone could WITHOUT Holtz-level PLAYER DOMINANCE. And it's because he at least got SOME truly gifted players, and he could COACH.

Freeman is reputedly a BETTER RECRUITER. But doesn't ND still have the final say? Or will Freeman be granted SOFTER TERMS? Me, I have no idea. But just HOW FAR ND will bend on recruiting -- ASSUMING FREEMAN DELIVERS -- will be telling.

That and whether Freeman can actually coach to the tune of WINNING CONSISTENTLY.

We'll see.

I love your posts, and you're the only guy who makes long-ass posts where I actually read them through. The only reason some of these goons give you shit, is your quirk with the ALL-CAPS, which by the way you should never change. The beauty of your all-caps idiosyncrasy, if you will, is then I know how to read your posts, I know where to put the emphasis. Obviously some people are put off by that, but F them. The way you do it, there's no doubt at all, or at a minimum less uncertainty what you're intending to impart, and communicate. I probably should incorporate more of that myself when I go on some long, verbose tangent. But I'm too much of a pussy....

But this board is full of haters. BK absorbs a lot of it, but not all of it....

 

[savvyandsassier]

I've much more to say on all of this, but I will save it for another time.

I'll just say this. ND fans want Holtz results -- an NC plus two or three close misses? Then ND needs Holtz-like players.

In his heyday, Holtz's players were equal or better to ANY OTHER PROGRAM'S. By 1995, that was no longer true when it became PAINFULLY APPARENT that ND couldn't run with Eddie George and OSU for four quarters.

Kelly got as close as anyone could WITHOUT Holtz-level PLAYER DOMINANCE. And it's because he at least got SOME truly gifted players, and he could COACH.

Freeman is reputedly a BETTER RECRUITER. But doesn't ND still have the final say? Or will Freeman be granted SOFTER TERMS? Me, I have no idea. But just HOW FAR ND will bend on recruiting -- ASSUMING FREEMAN DELIVERS -- will be telling.

That and whether Freeman can actually coach to the tune of WINNING CONSISTENTLY.

We'll see.

Oh, and to this post specifically.... I think that's a fair enough sentiment. We didn't beat Bama or Clemson in our two playoff appearances because they were just better than us, and they had better players. We have good players, for sure, but not as good as those teams, and they're just as well-coached as we are. And it's not like we got utterly blown away, we just lost. And that's perfectly normal....

And it's true about Holtz. He had PLAYER DOMINANCE to a degree similar to the way Bama, Clemson or tOSU does today. When Urban was still coaching tOSU before he got fired again, that was the dominant team of today that most reminded me of Holtz's teams.

Maybe MF, because of his charisma and whatnot, can get us into that top tier, with respect to pure talent. And that definitely was one of the upsides of hiring him. The promise of potentially truly elite recruiting, at ND, which of course we all understand is usually hard to achieve despite our best efforts. And if MF is able to achieve that, or get the program to that level, first with elite recruiting, and then in the W/L column, I stand by my comparison to Dabo Swinnery, and that that's a good parallel....

 

[Kontiki09]

“I've much more to say on all of this, but I will save it for another time.”

Oh no, you mean we have to wait? We’ll all be on pins and needles.

I was just thinking the same thing. Never seen anyone so in love with their own thoughts. Could have said what he wanted in maybe 5 sentences…instead we got 5 paragraphs. It’s exhausting.

 

[TPirish]

You are cherry picking as well.

Faust was a HS coach who never became a successful coach after

Davie wasnt successful after ND with experience

Same with Weis

If you are a bad coach, you are a bad coach. Experience doesnt mask that

If you are a good coach, you will be a good coach.

I can use many other examples of successful first yr coaches

Just not at Notre Dame. And Rockne doesn't count. Talk about cherry picking.

 

[Golson5]

Just not at Notre Dame. And Rockne doesn't count. Talk about cherry picking.

So the successful one you dont count but the others do? Got it

How about the fact the first year coaches we chose were not good coaches....had nothing to do with experience because they struggled after ND

Glad Dabo had all that experience sat, really helped Clemson. Mac Brown too

 

[TPirish]

Fickell was a continuation of Kelly. Very good coach but not dynamic enough to take us to the next level, my opinion.

JS took a chance at the possibilty of a dynamic coach that can compete for a NC. I agree with him

Fickell is a better coach than the Cajun Midget. And he would have been the much better hire than Freeman. We're all rooting for Freeman, but it was a lazy hire. Not surprising.

 

[TPirish]

So the successful one you dont count but the others do? Got it

How about the fact the first year coaches we chose were not good coaches....had nothing to do with experience because they struggled after ND

Glad Dabo had all that experience sat, really helped Clemson. Mac Brown too

You bring up coaches from other schools. They're not Notre Dame. It's different at Notre Dame. If you don't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you. And Rockne doesn't count because he didn't have the pressures of following in the footsteps of ROCKNE, Leahy, Parseghian, Holtz.

 

[Golson5]

Fickell is a better coach than the Cajun Midget. And he would have been the much better hire than Freeman. We're all rooting for Freeman, but it was a lazy hire. Not surprising.

Hes a similar coach to Kelly.

And we dont know yet on Freeman but Id put my money on Freeman. Better recruiter, more dynamic head coach

We shall see

 

[Golson5]

You bring up coaches from other schools. They're not Notre Dame. It's different at Notre Dame. If you don't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you. And Rockne doesn't count because he didn't have the pressures of following in the footsteps of ROCKNE, Leahy, Parseghian, Holtz.

Nonsense.

They're not Notre Dame is a thing said in the past.

If you can coach and recruit, you can be successful here like you can be successful anywhere.

OSU, Oklahoma arent some no pressure jobs that is so different than Notre Dame. Thats all BS

We hired shitty coaches, thats why they failed. Howd they do elsewhere with existing? The first time thing is crap

 

[TPirish]

Nonsense.

They're not Notre Dame is a thing said in the past.

If you can coach and recruit, you can be successful here like you can be successful anywhere.

OSU, Oklahoma arent some no pressure jobs that is so different than Notre Dame. Thats all BS

We hired shitty coaches, thats why they failed. Howd they do elsewhere with existing? The first time thing is crap

No, it's not crap. The numbers don't lie. Name a single first time head coach that was successful at Notre Dame. And again, Rockne doesn't count. I'll wait.

 

[Golson5]

No, it's not crap. The numbers don't lie. Name a single first time head coach that was successful at Notre Dame. And again, Rockne doesn't count. I'll wait.

Rockne. Just because you dont count him, that doesnt make it so. He was a first time head coach and is the greatest coach in our history

And again, how did those guys do after coaching at Notre Dame? They were bad coaches, Faust being a freaking hs coach.

None of that matters at all. MF can coach and recruit. He will be very successful and that silly myth will be a thing of the past

Nonsense

 

[banmate6]

Hi guys. Here is the data set I am using to do some statistics on predicting coaching success. Very basic.

Can anybody help with prior to ND head coaching experience years? Maybe even overall W, L, T, including bowls?

					Overall	Overall	Overall	Overall	Overall	Bowls	Bowls	Bowls	Bowls	Bowls
Rk	Coach	From	To	Yrs	G	W	L	T	Pct	G	W	L	T	Pct	Prior Yrs HC
20	James McWeeney	1899	1899	1	10	6	3	1	0.65	0	0	0	0
16	Patrick O'Dea	1900	1901	2	20	14	4	2	0.75	0	0	0	0
19	James Faragher	1902	1902	1	9	6	2	1	0.722	0	0	0	0
22	Louis Salmon	1904	1904	1	8	5	3	0	0.625	0	0	0	0
23	Henry McGlew	1905	1905	1	9	5	4	0	0.556	0	0	0	0
10	Jesse Harper	1913	1917	5	40	34	5	1	0.863	0	0	0	0
2	Knute Rockne	1918	1930	13	122	105	12	5	0.881	1	1	0	0	1
15	Hunk Anderson	1931	1933	3	27	16	9	2	0.63	0	0	0	0
7	Elmer Layden	1934	1940	7	63	47	13	3	0.77	0	0	0	0
5	Frank Leahy	1941	1953	11	107	87	11	9	0.855	0	0	0	0
18	Ed McKeever	1944	1944	1	10	8	2	0	0.8	0	0	0	0
17	Hugh Devore	1945	1963	2	19	9	9	1	0.5	0	0	0	0
11	Terry Brennan	1954	1958	5	50	32	18	0	0.64	0	0	0	0
14	Joe Kuharich	1959	1962	4	40	17	23	0	0.425	0	0	0	0
4	Ara Parseghian	1964	1974	11	116	95	17	4	0.836	5	3	2	0	0.6
6	Dan Devine	1975	1980	6	70	53	16	1	0.764	4	3	1	0	0.75
12	Gerry Faust	1981	1985	5	57	30	26	1	0.535	2	1	1	0	0.5
3	Lou Holtz	1986	1996	11	132	100	30	2	0.765	9	5	4	0	0.556
8	Bob Davie	1997	2001	5	60	35	25	0	0.583	3	0	3	0	0
13	Tyrone Willingham	2002	2004	3	36	21	15	0	0.583	1	0	1	0	0
24	Kent Baer	2004	2004	1	1	0	1	0	0	1	0	1	0	0
9	Charlie Weis	2005	2009	5	62	35	27	0	0.565	3	1	2	0	0.333
1	Brian Kelly	2010	2021	12	153	113	40	0	0.739	10	5	5	0	0.5
21	Marcus Freeman	2021	2022	2	10	6	4	0	0.6	1	0	1	0	0

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

On the subject of whether age or prior head coaching experience is desirable or predictive of success as a head coach, I was reminded when listening to a podcast on Inside ND Sports the other day, where Terry Hanratty was interviewed and asked about the hiring of Marcus Freeman as HC of ND, of what the Pittsburgh Steelers have thought about that popularly held belief.

In 1969, the Steelers hired Chuck Noll as their HC, when he was 37 years old. Noll had a couple of years of experience as DC for the Colts, but no prior head coaching experience. Noll retired in 1991 with 4 Super Bowl championships on his resume. His Steelers teams had a record of 209–156–1, which is pretty good in the NFL.

When Noll retired, the Steelers hired Bill Cowher, then 34 years old. Cowher had 2 years of experience as DC of the KC Chiefs under Marty Schottenheimer, but had no prior head coaching experience. In Cowher's 15 seasons as HC of the Steelers, the Steelers captured eight division titles, earned 10 postseason playoff berths (including six straight in his first six seasons), played in 21 playoff games, advanced to six AFC Championship games and made two Super Bowl appearances, winning one of them. He is one of only six coaches in NFL history to claim at least seven division titles. Cowher retired with a record of 161–99–1 as head coach of the Steelers.

After Cowher retired in 2006, the Steelers hired Mike Tomin as his successor. Tomlin was then 35 years old. He had 1 year of experience as DC of the Vikings, but had no prior head coaching experience. Tomlin's Steelers teams have a record of 164–100–2, seven division titles, and one Super Bowl title.

What this tells me: If you got the right guy, you got the right guy.

 

[4-4-3]

I love your posts, and you're the only guy who makes long-ass posts where I actually read them through. The only reason some of these goons give you shit, is your quirk with the ALL-CAPS, which by the way you should never change. The beauty of your all-caps idiosyncrasy, if you will, is then I know how to read your posts, I know where to put the emphasis. Obviously some people are put off by that, but F them. The way you do it, there's no doubt at all, or at a minimum less uncertainty what you're intending to impart, and communicate. I probably should incorporate more of that myself when I go on some long, verbose tangent. But I'm too much of a pussy....

But this board is full of haters. BK absorbs a lot of it, but not all of it....

Thanks, I enjoy yours as well. Plus, what comes across to me as your SENSE OF HUMOR. You're a TRUE WORDSMITH and the master of UNLIKELY JUXTAPOSITIONS.

And you've STUCK BY YOUR GUNS in your defense of Kelly which, to me, shows not only CHARACTER but also INTELLIGENCE.

I don't have any illusions about what Kelly is or isn't, but I believe, NO QUESTION, that far from underperforming at ND, he actually OVERPERFORMED -- given the TERMS OF ENGAGEMENT they charged him with.

Question:

Which ND coach does Kelly most resemble? My pick is DAN DEVINE who if he hadn't won that championship in 77 would have been viewed as EQUALLY SUSPECT despite a 75% PLUS winning percentage. Devine isn't even well regarded NOW. Competent, demanding, largly victorious, but INCURABLY DRY Dan Devine.

What Holtz had, IN COMPARISON, was this OUTSIZED REVERENCE for ALL THINGS ND. And he made it QUITE CLEAR. But was it also PART of why he enjoyed so much latitude in recruiting? Was he at times at least PARTLY BLOWING SMOKE? Who knows? Holtz is, after all, an amateur magician. And a very shrewd guy.

Thing is, Freeman has now stepped into Holtz's shoes -- and before, Holtz, Faust -- as ND's HEAD COACH AS EVANGELIST. My God, the guy coverted to CATHOLICISM! Not that he intended it, but might that not have earned him some SERIOUS POINTS with ND's admin?

Specifically, does it mean that should Freeman INDEED be ND's kind of guy it will allow him to get MORE of HIS KIND OF PLAYERS, or will ND VETO any DIFFERENCE MAKERS on the margins?

That's what I'M watching for. How much ND BENDS OR NOT in Freeman's favor in return for his HIGH CONCEPT EVANGELISM re ND as a INSTITUTION. He's already talking like someone who's experienced a kind of LIFE-CHANGING TRANSFORMATION. Will it earn him CONSIDERATION of some sort?

We'll see.

In the meantime, CAPS UBER ALLES.

 

[Golson5]

Thanks, I enjoy yours as well. Plus, what comes across to me as your SENSE OF HUMOR. You're a TRUE WORDSMITH and the master of UNLIKELY JUXTAPOSITIONS.

And you've STUCK BY YOUR GUNS in your defense of Kelly which, to me, shows not only CHARACTER but also INTELLIGENCE.

I don't have any illusions about what Kelly is or isn't, but I believe, NO QUESTION, that far from underperforming at ND, he actually OVERPERFORMED -- given the TERMS OF ENGAGEMENT they charged him with.

Question:

Which ND coach does Kelly most resemble? My pick is DAN DEVINE who if he hadn't won that championship in 77 would have been viewed as EQUALLY SUSPECT despite a 75% PLUS winning percentage. Devine isn't even well regarded NOW. Competent, demanding, largly victorious, but INCURABLY DRY Dan Devine.

What Holtz had, IN COMPARISON, was this OUTSIZED REVERENCE for ALL THINGS ND. And he made it QUITE CLEAR. But was it also PART of why he enjoyed so much latitude in recruiting? Was he at times at least PARTLY BLOWING SMOKE? Who knows? Holtz is, after all, an amateur magician. And a very shrewd guy.

Thing is, Freeman has now stepped into Holtz's shoes -- and before, Holtz, Faust -- as ND's HEAD COACH AS EVANGELIST. My God, the guy coverted to CATHOLICISM! Not that he intended it, but might that not have earned him some SERIOUS POINTS with ND's admin?

Specifically, does it mean that should Freeman INDEED be ND's kind of guy it will allow him to get MORE of HIS KIND OF PLAYERS, or will ND VETO any DIFFERENCE MAKERS on the margins?

That's what I'M watching for. How much ND BENDS OR NOT in Freeman's favor in return for his HIGH CONCEPT EVANGELISM re ND as a INSTITUTION. He's already talking like someone who's experienced a kind of LIFE-CHANGING TRANSFORMATION. Will it earn him CONSIDERATION of some sort?

We'll see.

In the meantime, CAPS UBER ALLES.

Yawn

 

[4-4-3]

Oh, and to this post specifically.... I think that's a fair enough sentiment. We didn't beat Bama or Clemson in our two playoff appearances because they were just better than us, and they had better players. We have good players, for sure, but not as good as those teams, and they're just as well-coached as we are. And it's not like we got utterly blown away, we just lost. And that's perfectly normal....

And it's true about Holtz. He had PLAYER DOMINANCE to a degree similar to the way Bama, Clemson or tOSU does today. When Urban was still coaching tOSU before he got fired again, that was the dominant team of today that most reminded me of Holtz's teams.

Maybe MF, because of his charisma and whatnot, can get us into that top tier, with respect to pure talent. And that definitely was one of the upsides of hiring him. The promise of potentially truly elite recruiting, at ND, which of course we all understand is usually hard to achieve despite our best efforts. And if MF is able to achieve that, or get the program to that level, first with elite recruiting, and then in the W/L column, I stand by my comparison to Dabo Swinnery, and that that's a good parallel....

I'm basically in agreement

The key for me -- as I've mentioned elsewhere -- will be ND's flexibility or not. Is ND expecting Freeman to pull in potential Heisman winners with 140 IQ's simply by being able to locate and land such rare individuals?

Or will ND lower the bar enough to LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD?

Like we've been saying, It's about PLAYER DOMINANCE. And across ENTIRE ROSTERS.

YOU CAN'T WIN LIKE A FOOTBALL FACTORY UNLESS YOU ARE ONE.

One has to wonder -- DOES ND GET THAT OR NOT?