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Willingham

I live in Washington and remember the Ty years. He burnt a once proud program (and national runner up last year) to the ground.
LOL! I know, those were some down years. And he was supposed to like, stabilize the program or something. Maybe not take them to the Rose Bowl, but simply restore the dignity, wasn't the previous coach fired under scandalous circumstances? Rick Nueheisal. And then you got Seven win Sark! But you know in fairness, what could he be expected to do, in the aftermath of the infamous molder of men. But I don't think they recruited too terrible with TW, nothing that bad. But maybe that's what got Sark hittin' the bottle. He'd never seen a program in such disarray!

How much money did ND save extending MF before he beat Georgia and made it to the final 4 ?

Even in sports that play a 5 or best of 7 series, teams with the best talent have lost more than they've won. You're really clueless when it comes to this stuff. Computers and formulas only go so far. There are many other factors outside of talent that impact games and their results. until you understand that, you'll continue to be clueless.

You aren't understanding some of the points im making but trying to counter the points anyway and its not working.

I'll just say this: when i refer to "skill" im referring to the opposite of luck im not referring to recruiting rankings specifically.

"skill" is what a team can effect/impact
"luck" is external events (events out of a team's control) that impact/effect the outcome of the game

"skill" is an all encompassing term in this case used to describe a programs production and talent.

The more quarters two teams play against each other, the larger the sample size grows and better the opportunity gets for the more skilled of the two teams (the more talented and more productive of the two teams) to rise to the top of the scoreboard and win.

In many college football games 4 quarters is enough to get *some idea* of who the better team is, but if you turned a football game into a best of 7 series (where potentially 28 quarters were involved instead of just 4 quarters), we'd DEFINITELY know by the end of the series who was the better of the two teams (and luck would play way less of a factor in determining the winner)

TLDR: In college football, because the sample size is so small (just 4 quarters), even teams in the FCS or G5 FBS can sometimes steal wins over much more skilled P4 teams by mere luck (the NIU vs ND game being a perfect example)

Willingham

How come you guys don't bash him to no end? They did fire him after three years and he got the hook pretty quick, purportedly because he was such an indifferent recruiter, that he represented some sort of existential threat and so he didn't get the usual five years ND prides itself on. Even though Weis came onto the scene and took those same players and went to back to back BCS bowls. But, before Weis himself fell out of favor, those same shitty recruiting classes could be leveraged to get Weis off the hook for his shocking 3-9 season, because we had to start like, Paul Duncan or something on the OL. And Weis in spite of his Super Bowl rings and ND-grad status, and his schematic advantage of course, ended up doing almost more damage than TW himself.

Anyway, TW didn't do to badly at Stanford. I guess that's why he got the ND job in the first place. And he got two jobs, from two different desperate programs, on the strength of his 'molder of men' reputation.
I didn't become a member here until after Willingham was let go, but I visited the board often before then and seem to recall that Willingham was under daily attack by posters here pretty much after his first year as HC. Remarkably, Willingham started his first season at ND 8-0 but then flamed out badly, finishing 13-15 over his next 2-1/2 seasons. There was frequent criticism about his recruiting efforts, which were undeniably bad. Your calling him an indifferent recruiter is overly generous. And I don't know if it is true or not--if it is on the internet it must be true, right?--but there were several posters who claimed that Willingham's golf handicap actually went down during the football season, suggesting he was fiddling while Rome was burning. In any case it became abundantly clear Willingham was not up to the job, and so he got sacked. So yes, he was bashed here, frequently and vociferously.

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CFP Championship MVP
Will Howard (Ohio State)2/1
Riley Leonard (Notre Dame)5/1
Jeremiah Smith (Ohio State)5/1
Quinn Ewers (Texas)6/1
Drew Allar (Penn State)8/1
Tyler Warren (Penn State)16/1
Jeremiyah Love (Notre Dame)20/1
Quinshon Judkins (Ohio State)25/1
TreVeyon Henderson (Ohio State)25/1
Emeka Egbuka (Ohio State)28/1
Kaytron Allen (Penn State)33/1
Arch Manning (Texas)40/1
Matthew Golden (Texas)40/1
Gunnar Helm (Texas)50/1
Nick Singleton (Penn State)50/1
Tre Wisner (Texas)50/1
Jadarian Price (Notre Dame)66/1
Jaydon Blue (Texas)75/1
Jordan Faison (Notre Dame)125/1
Isaiah Bond (Texas)150/1
Beaux Collins (Notre Dame)250/1

RJ Oben

That's big time praise. Love hearing it.

We'll need a similar effort Thursday.
That's what I think it is. He just wasn't clicking, one of the inherent downsides of the portal. Sometimes it just doesn't click. But now, in the playoff, you forget about all that, no homesickness, no self-pity or whatever it might be that might be kind of holding you back, whatever little hangups, you forget about all that stuff and just let it all hang out. It really is all hands on deck on time.
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Willingham

How come you guys don't bash him to no end? They did fire him after three years and he got the hook pretty quick, purportedly because he was such an indifferent recruiter, that he represented some sort of existential threat and so he didn't get the usual five years ND prides itself on. Even though Weis came onto the scene and took those same players and went to back to back BCS bowls. But, before Weis himself fell out of favor, those same shitty recruiting classes could be leveraged to get Weis off the hook for his shocking 3-9 season, because we had to start like, Paul Duncan or something on the OL. And Weis in spite of his Super Bowl rings and ND-grad status, and his schematic advantage of course, ended up doing almost more damage than TW himself.

Anyway, TW didn't do to badly at Stanford. I guess that's why he got the ND job in the first place. And he got two jobs, from two different desperate programs, on the strength of his 'molder of men' reputation.
He's no Jimmy Johnson, but he is moving up my naughty list. For now I have him at #9 right behind Fielding Yost, and before Mark May. Brian Kelly is #21.
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RJ Oben

IrishMike, I was totally in awe of Oben’s play against Georgia. I kept asking where the hell this Oben has been all season. This was the guy we thought we were getting when we recruited him out of the portal, and even better. Our coaches have said week after week that they still believed in him, and that it just takes some longer than others to make the adjustment to a new school, new coaches, new system, etc…. I viewed this as Coach speak and the reality that we had little choice. Was this an aberration or was the Georgia Tackle that bad or is this the Oben we can expect to see against Penn St?
That's big time praise. Love hearing it.

We'll need a similar effort Thursday.
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