Uncle Jack on Brian Kelly's job and state of ND football

[cgvr]

Yes, there are considerations made to athletes, but FYI, there are also considerations ("lower standards") given to regular students as well. There is a small portion of students, who have academic histories that may be below the acceptable profile, but are accepted because of their unique talents and or personal stories. Every school has this. For an athlete, it is there unique abilities in sport, for someone else it might be their personal story. Whatever...this accommodation exists. The question or evaluation process has always been, how far under the typical profile of admittance do you dip to accommodate an athlete.

Mr Potato Head, "I think we recognized that all of my football players are at risk. All of them, really. Honestly, I don't know that any of our players would get into the school by themselves right now, with the academic standards the way they are. Maybe one or two of our players that are on scholarship."

 

[NDSMC78]

All you do is lie and twist bullshit to your narrative. You mightily avoid any legit questions ..quite possibly because you've no answer for it other than to say
ND good, everyone else bad. Brian Kelly will help the science class, etc. Wtfe

Question

Are you saying you became a fan only after they raised their standards?

Answer my question. Why would anyone be a fan of a school which they believe is elitist?

 

[twalsh]

Yes, there are considerations made to athletes, but FYI, there are also considerations ("lower standards") given to regular students as well. There is a small portion of students, who have academic histories that may be below the acceptable profile, but are accepted because of their unique talents and or personal stories. Every school has this. For an athlete, it is there unique abilities in sport, for someone else it might be their personal story. Whatever...this accommodation exists. The question or evaluation process has always been, how far under the typical profile of admittance do you dip to accommodate an athlete.

That answer has never been that complicated. Admissions has to believe that, given our curriculum and all the academic resources at your disposal, do you have a legitimate chance at academic success? Academic success being primarily measured as maintaining an acceptable GPA and graduating within four years. The "legitimate chance" question has a lot to do with the specific kid involved, and it can be very subjective in certain cases. What's not subjective, and what is the biggest rub with many kids, is high school minimum core curriculum, where ND's minimum requirements are more rigorous than the NCAA minimums. We lose or eliminate more potential recruits on core curriculum issues than we do on grade or SAT issues. But they are not going to change that because they believe that core curriculum and "legitimate chance" are very closely correlated. And they are not going to bring in any kid who they don't believe has a legitimate chance at success.

 

[Howard Hall 74]

That answer has never been that complicated. Admissions has to believe that, given our curriculum and all the academic resources at your disposal, do you have a legitimate chance at academic success? Academic success being primarily measured as maintaining an acceptable GPA and graduating within four years. The "legitimate chance" question has a lot to do with the specific kid involved, and it can be very subjective in certain cases. What's not subjective, and what is the biggest rub with many kids, is high school minimum core curriculum, where ND's minimum requirements are more rigorous than the NCAA minimums. We lose or eliminate more potential recruits on core curriculum issues than we do on grade or SAT issues. But they are not going to change that because they believe that core curriculum and "legitimate chance" are very closely correlated. And they are not going to bring in any kid who they don't believe has a legitimate chance at success.

Yes, agree completely with your overtake, my point was directed to students who do have the "core curriculum" from HS, many college prep schools focus on this. There still is a judgement made, and it's quite subjective, as to whether a student can successfully complete school. As to the number of years, think that is open a little. It may take someone a semester longer, but a reasonable period to graduate should be considered. I've always thought there should be majors created for and a curriculum base designed for athletes with extended periods to graduate, special support groups and adjusted hours to carry during the season. Yes, I know there are tutors and support help available now, but I'm thinking way beyond that to help manage the time and educational experience. Just my thought....

 

[cgvr]

Answer my question. Why would anyone be a fan of a school which they believe is elitist?

 

[twalsh]

Yes, agree completely with your overtake, my point was directed to students who do have the "core curriculum" from HS, many college prep schools focus on this. There still is a judgement made, and it's quite subjective, as to whether a student can successfully complete school. As to the number of years, think that is open a little. It may take someone a semester longer, but a reasonable period to graduate should be considered. I've always thought there should be majors created for and a curriculum base designed for athletes with extended periods to graduate, special support groups and adjusted hours to carry during the season. Yes, I know there are tutors and support help available now, but I'm thinking way beyond that to help manage the time and educational experience. Just my thought....

You have to understand the fundamental difference between what ND is selling to recruits and their parents and what most other schools are selling. While it's a difficult balance, we want you to have the same college experience as a typical college student to the greatest extent possible, given the requirements and responsibilities of playing your sport. You are going to live in a random dorm with a non-athlete roommate as a freshman, you are going to take your classes with average students, you can major in whatever course of study interests you, and if there are conflicts (which are usually labs) your classes will take priority. We want to integrate student athletes into the general student population to the greatest extent possible and have you be "different" to the least extent possible. A curriculum aimed at athletes and/or treating athletes as being on five year graduation tracks instead of four years flies in the face of that concept.

Also, our players schedules are already structured such that, if they choose, they can take the NCAA minimum 12 hours during the fall semester and stay on track. Some of them do that, some choose to take more than 12.

 

[Howard Hall 74]

You have to understand the fundamental difference between what ND is selling to recruits and their parents and what most other schools are selling. While it's a difficult balance, we want you to have the same college experience as a typical college student to the greatest extent possible, given the requirements and responsibilities of playing your sport. You are going to live in a random dorm with a non-athlete roommate as a freshman, you are going to take your classes with average students, you can major in whatever course of study interests you, and if there are conflicts (which are usually labs) your classes will take priority. We want to integrate student athletes into the general student population to the greatest extent possible and have you be "different" to the least extent possible. A curriculum aimed at athletes and/or treating athletes as being on five year graduation tracks instead of four years flies in the face of that concept.

Also, our players schedules are already structured such that, if they choose, they can take the NCAA minimum 12 hours during the fall semester and stay on track. Some of them do that, some choose to take more than 12.

I'm a ND graduate, and played a sport, got this, but my suggestion is the creation of a new script for athletes or special needs and/or occasion students. With their own type of major, especially designed for this type of student. Yes, it will be different, completely different from what currently is offered, but the situation today is different - if you want to compete in sports with other programs. Look, go to Stanford, they have different tracks for Olympic ("professional") athletes, yes, same academic standards but different class loads and graduation periods. There just needs to be a new look at what a "special track" student might be offered v. a regular student. Today's world of athletics is different. The educational process for them needs to be adjusted for the time and situation of today's environment. If not, you will NOT be able to compete with others and obtain a successful, i.e. championship program for football and perhaps other sports as well. It's a new world, we need to adjust or - accept that we can not compete at a championship level. Then join the Ivy League - I have no problem with that. Just be willing to accept a very diminished role for athletics and even more rigorous academic standards and to a degree intrusions into our Catholic approach to education.

 

[SiberianKnightmare]

Jack Swarbrick isn't a message board poster. He doesn't react viscerally to adversity. If anyone thought he would fire a Head Coach for going 1-3 after going 10-3 the year before, you are a stupid idiot.

Jack isn't firing anyone mid season. He's stated this before. The only exception would be something serious off the field.

Anyone hoping that BK gets fired if he goes 6-6 might as well start taking some mood stabilizers now because it isn't going to happen.

 

[88ND]

Answer my question. Why would anyone be a fan of a school which they believe is elitist?

Why do you? You are the one who has this holier than thou attitude about everything Notre Dame.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how this one for all deal works at Notre Dame. How hiring or firing Brian Kelly impacts the chemistry team.
And if so.....this will be a two way street meaning faculty hiring will have football in mind as well.

Go ahead..I'm ready.

 

[88ND]

Jack Swarbrick isn't a message board poster. He doesn't react viscerally to adversity. If anyone thought he would fire a Head Coach for going 1-3 after going 10-3 the year before, you are a stupid idiot.

Jack isn't firing anyone mid season. He's stated this before. The only exception would be something serious off the field.

Anyone hoping that BK gets fired if he goes 6-6 might as well start taking some mood stabilizers now because it isn't going to happen.

Believe this or not...a lot of the rid Kelly sentiment is NOT coming strictly from record.
It's being fueled by the quality. The Chinese fire drill on defense, lack of simple pop Warner fundamentals, timeouts to punt, our leader of our team is never ready to attack from opening kickoff in a big game setting. Instead we spot the other team too many points.
The fact he is numb to how poor the defense was ...why? To aid a friend or he just that really oblivious to it.

The list is six miles long. Before we discussed specifically record.

Know this ...the above things impact the record but the problem is even if a few bounces went our way and we were at 5-0 the same 7 year old habits remain and it's only a matter of time until that big game cones around and those things hurt us...AGAIN.

This is the problem.

 

[Granite45]

The next professor they hire it will have been made certain they are a positive influence to the football program...right?

I'm still laughing.

To you and the powers that be, get off the elitest high horse.

False comparison. This is not that hard,

A professor's hiring will reflect on the University, even if not directly on a team. Firing/hiring a coach reflects on the University if not on a specific academic department, such as English.

 

[Granite45]

Why do you? You are the one who has this holier than thou attitude about everything Notre Dame.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how this one for all deal works at Notre Dame. How hiring or firing Brian Kelly impacts the chemistry team.
And if so.....this will be a two way street meaning faculty hiring will have football in mind as well.

Go ahead..I'm ready.

Again, a nonsense comparison. There is not a direct impact, but all hiring/firing decisions do impact the University. This is not that hard to understand.

 

[88ND]

False comparison. This is not that hard,

A professor's hiring will reflect on the University, even if not directly on a team. Firing/hiring a coach reflects on the University if not on a specific academic department, such as English.

See....you have this ass backwards.
Hiring a faculty member reflects the university as a whole and could if you want to be a specific prick about it...could hurt that one lone kid who is just demanding his physics prof is state of the art.

But how many students come to Notre Dame because of what the status is and who is occupying the head coach spot on the football team.

Come on.

The only ugly reflection on Notre Dame is if they'd hire a junkie or a bad rap sheet coach. A bad character guy.
That's it.
Outside of that the coach has no impact on the quality of studies at Notre Dame.

 

[Granite45]

See....you have this ass backwards.

We obviously disagree, but it does not matter as we have little real input into the decision.

 

[Granite45]

But how many students come to Notre Dame because of what the status is and who is occupying the head coach spot on the football team.

More students than you apparently think consider the reputation of the school and specific departments more than the football team.

I know four students personally at my son's high school that applied only because of ND's national ranking as a university. These 4 cared nothing for football and do not go to the games. One student specifically applied because of the ranking of the business school. I know 2 others that went for a combination of reasons including the profile of the football team.

So form my local high school, 4 of 6 students went to ND because of non-football team reasons. The team was a factor for only 2 of 6 students.

 

[88ND]

More students than you apparently think consider the reputation of the school and specific departments more than the football team

Exactly what I'm talking about. Moreover to the two who decided because of football...
OK.
But they are.. were..basing that on the football rep. Guess what...those coaches are long gone. The current coach is leaving what in his wake? More tremendous football or average at best football. ?

As I said...as long as its an OK charaxter guy it really isn't hurting the university.

It COULD hurt recruiting by being mediocre...but this convo has now gone to the student body and Kelly's impact on them...
Which by and large his impact on them is zero.

 

[Granite45]

Exactly what I'm talking about. Moreover to the two who decided because of football...
OK.
But they are.. were..basing that on the football rep. Guess what...those coaches are long gone. The current coach is leaving what in his wake? More tremendous football or average at best football. ?

As I said...as long as its an OK charaxter guy it really isn't hurting the university.

It COULD hurt recruiting by being mediocre...but this convo has now gone to the student body and Kelly's impact on them...
Which by and large his impact on them is zero.

Not long gone. 2 of the students are currently there; one of each type regarding football. And for none was football reputation the lead factor, just a factor for 2 of the 6 students.

I disagree with you about the views of current high school students and their interest in ND. especially their motivations for interest.

 

[SiberianKnightmare]

The number of wins is all that matters. ND isn't Georgia or LSU. Jack Swarbrick isn't firing a head football coach for not winning national championships. If the coach keeps the program clean and winning 9 games a year with the occasional trip to the playoff, he stays.

People may not like it, but that's the way it is. If you don't like it, then the man you really want to replace is Swarbrick.

 

[88ND]

Not long gone. 2 of the students are currently there; one of each type regarding football. And for none was football reputation the lead factor, just a factor for 2 of the 6 students.

I disagree with you about the views of current high school students and their interest in ND. especially their motivations for interest.

We can disagree ..and those ate healthy things.

My stance remains though...speaking of the student body if they are going for studies only to Notre Dame...regardless of they rally around the team and the pageantry it's their attendance to the university isn't based on Brian Kelly.

Look...no matter what there isn't one university in the land who wants a bad character guy.

And this is part of the problem. It seems to me the Brian Kelly apologists want to act like we are the almighty holy grail and you dare not have even had a speeding ticket to become the head coach. This mindset like everyone else is so beneath us ...well I present to you Notre Dame football present day.

I'm so sick of the admissions and we shop from a different aisle excuses.

Quit excusing and get results. If we are going to have a higher threshold of admittance fine, but quit making it a ****ing excuse why we lose every big game. Why we can't defy the odds one time, or overcome adverse conditions.

A good coach finds a way. An average coach finds an excuse.

Think about that.

 

[perseverare]

reading posts today, unless these are the board designated shills sent, by BK, to monitor posts that are not pro Kelly, then it appears the new fans are the "white flag generation".

'Play like it doesn't matter'!

 

[twalsh]

We can disagree ..and those ate healthy things.

My stance remains though...speaking of the student body if they are going for studies only to Notre Dame...regardless of they rally around the team and the pageantry it's their attendance to the university isn't based on Brian Kelly.

Look...no matter what there isn't one university in the land who wants a bad character guy.

And this is part of the problem. It seems to me the Brian Kelly apologists want to act like we are the almighty holy grail and you dare not have even had a speeding ticket to become the head coach. This mindset like everyone else is so beneath us ...well I present to you Notre Dame football present day.

I'm so sick of the admissions and we shop from a different aisle excuses.

Quit excusing and get results. If we are going to have a higher threshold of admittance fine, but quit making it a ****ing excuse why we lose every big game. Why we can't defy the odds one time, or overcome adverse conditions.

A good coach finds a way. An average coach finds an excuse.

Think about that.

Kelly will talk about "shopping down a different aisle", which is just the reality of how we recruit and the type of kid who is attracted to ND. But the admissions excuses and academic excuses usually come from the fan base, not from anyone related to the football program.

 

[perseverare]

well the administration and staff both need to put up the front that ND still is nationally relevant as a competitor. Once the admission is made that ND is passe, then the revenues will start to decline at an increasing rate.
Just a note, talent aside, the truth is this team suffers from poor staff decisions, poor player devopment and a lack of overall control. This has nothing to do with admissions, academics or geography! This is a seven year delemma! So when fans say the next coach faces the same obstacles that is true, but the next staff does not 'have' to be a poor performing staff! That is the reasoning for change.

 

[Granite45]

I'm so sick of the admissions and we shop from a different aisle excuses.

.

Not excusing anything. Just commenting that changes to the University are more important than football. I said in another post, I would rather play the Ivy League than drop standards too low. The University is more important than the football team.

 

[IowaIrish1]

I see many here don't run a business. If you're employee performed like Kelly you'd fire the guy...not come up wit excuse after excuse why he isn't meeting expectations. But this board believes that ND is a shit job and no coach would want to come here. This board seems to think that ND can't get recruits. Bullshit. Excuse after excuse.

 

[NDSMC78]

I see many here don't run a business. If you're employee performed like Kelly you'd fire the guy...not come up wit excuse after excuse why he isn't meeting expectations. But this board believes that ND is a shit job and no coach would want to come here. This board seems to think that ND can't get recruits. Bullshit. Excuse after excuse.

This entire post is BS. You keep setting up straw men where none exist. You really need to calm down. Your rants serve no good purpose.

 

[88ND]

Not excusing anything. Just commenting that changes to the University are more important than football. I said in another post, I would rather play the Ivy League than drop standards too low. The University is more important than the football team.

I don't disagree. But I have a problem with the excuses that follow.
Either get results or find someone who will.

As I said...

a great coach finds a way,
an average coach finds an excuse.

 

[IowaIrish1]

This entire post is BS. You keep setting up straw men where none exist. You really need to calm down. Your rants serve no good purpose.

And there it is again...

Why don't you just threaten to punch me in the face and call me a pussy. My rants serve a very useful purpose. I come here to talk ND football. I like to rant about football. I think the biggest concern right now for ND football is finding a better coach. Sorry if that bothers you, but I will continue to rant until the day this guy is gone. Deal with it however you like. I'm done responding to you.

 

[twalsh]

well the administration and staff both need to put up the front that ND still is nationally relevant as a competitor.

Can't people make that determination for themselves? This is 2016, there are no secrets and no shortage of information.

 

[twalsh]

My rants serve a very useful purpose.

Now that's funny.

 

[Granite45]

I see many here don't run a business.

No university should be run like a business. This type of thinking has ruined a number of universities over the last 20 years.

 

[88ND]

No university should be run like a business. This type of thinking has ruined a number of universities over the last 20 years.

And the apologies for BK continue, albeit backhanded, they still continue.

Let me just ask you one thing. If a professor's classes were run with which BK runs the football team would they be dismissed?

Meaning a class in disarray....students confused and doing the wrong work.

Students not getting the lesson in turn the professor offers up excuse after excuse.

If the students after their second year forgot how to ..let's say read and write because it's thought by the prof to be automatic.

So I ask you if that was happening how long would said professor last. ?

Apparently though this football thing is different. He gets a lot more leeway because he's shopping down a different aisle...or whatever else the ****ing excuse is at the time.