Ugly Wins

[BGI User 756]

If you recruit a player who needs “a lot of development” as you stated, you recruited the wrong player.

If they don’t have speed, hands, football IQ and route running skill, why would you recruit them ?

It’s like I’m at a far more advanced level than you !

Stop making it more complicated than it is.

We lost 3 of the top 4 WRs based on their playing experience, their physical strength, and their innate talent. Those guys that played in their place, made more mistakes, as younger and less experienced players usually do. They are talented, they were worthy of a schollie. But they didn’t play up to the level as the players in front of them. And Elko, as good coaches do, took advantage

 

[Golson5]

If you recruit a player who needs “a lot of development” as you stated, you recruited the wrong player.

If they don’t have speed, hands, football IQ and route running skill, why would you recruit them ?

It’s like I’m at a far more advanced level than you !

You couldn't be more wrong here.

Wow this is insane

You think every freshman comes in ready to play and is a finished product

Seriously wtf are you getting dumber

 

[Bogie8870]

When you have Mr. "I Hate ND Herbie" in essence calling out the refs for lack of calls or wrong calls, it's ugly.

 

[Patrirish]

You couldn't be more wrong here.

Wow this is insane

You think every freshman comes in ready to play and is a finished product

Seriously wtf are you getting dumber

I never stated that they were a finished product on the first day that they set foot on campus, that’s your absurd statement.

But when a guy is # 2 on the depth chart he should be fully capable of stepping up !

 

[Golson5]

I never stated that they were a finished product on the first day that they set foot on campus, that’s your absurd statement.

But when a guy is # 2 on the depth chart he should be fully capable of stepping up !

One guy is a freshman so obviously he is not close to a finished product

One guy is a sophomore who barely played last year. He came in raw but talented. Yes he should be better. He played extremely poorly

One guy was a rb his whole career and is in year 1 as a wr.

That's not good enough against a very good defense and very good corners which Duke has

 

[Patrirish]

Stop making it more complicated than it is.

We lost 3 of the top 4 WRs based on their playing experience, their physical strength, and their innate talent. Those guys that played in their place, made more mistakes, as younger and less experienced players usually do. They are talented, they were worthy of a schollie. But they didn’t play up to the level as the players in front of them. And Elko, as good coaches do, took advantage

# 2’s on the depth chart aren’t expected to play at the same level as # 1’s, but to blame the lackluster play of the OLine on the WR’s is patently insane.

i thought that Tyree and Merriweather played, NO ? .

I looked at the tape and Duke’s front four were the problem, Duke wasn’t “loading the box”
Duke played a basic 4-3 for most of the game

It was ND’s OLine that couldn’t push Duke’s DLine off the LOS

 

[Patrirish]

One guy is a freshman so obviously he is not close to a finished product. Then why was Greathouse playing as a freshman

One guy is a sophomore who barely played last year. He came in raw but talented. Yes he should be better. He played extremely poorly

One guy was a rb his whole career and is in year 1 as a wr. So was Golden Tate

That's not good enough against a very good defense and very good corners which Duke has

Greathouse is a freshman, how come he was starting despite the fact that he hadn’t had enough time to be developed ?

You foolishly keep blaming the WR’s for the poor play of the OLine.

Duke wasn’t loading the box, Duke’s front 4 played well and ND’s OLine couldn’t move them off the LOS

 

[Golson5]

Greathouse is a freshman, how come he was starting despite the fact that he hadn’t had enough time to be developed ?

You foolishly keep blaming the WR’s for the poor play of the OLine.

Duke wasn’t loading the box, Duke’s front 4 played well and ND’s OLine couldn’t move them off the LOS

Greathouse does not start. Do you watch the games or just run your mouth?

And don you think every player comes in at the same level?

Really you can't be this dumb

 

[tkirish]

Legit PI call. Defender damn near assaulted him on the holds

Agreed. I wasn’t implying it was a bad call. I was only pointing out that it helped. It was the right call.

 

[BGI User 756]

# 2’s on the depth chart aren’t expected to play at the same level as # 1’s, but to blame the lackluster play of the OLine on the WR’s is patently insane.

i thought that Tyree and Merriweather played, NO ? .

I looked at the tape and Duke’s front four were the problem, Duke wasn’t “loading the box”
Duke played a basic 4-3 for most of the game

It was ND’s OLine that couldn’t push Duke’s DLine off the LOS

It’s cause and effect. They played press on the WRs a lot, and run blitzed, as they keyed on Estime. As such the LBs were running downhill and bottled up Estime. And the DBs were chucking the WRs

Also the WRs sometimes missed assignments as well. It wasn’t just the OL though the OL had quite a few bad blocks and penalties

 

[Patrirish]

It’s cause and effect. They played press on the WRs a lot, and run blitzed, as they keyed on Estime. As such the LBs were running downhill and bottled up Estime. And the DBs were chucking the WRs

Also the WRs sometimes missed assignments as well. It wasn’t just the OL though the OL had quite a few bad blocks and penalties

I didn’t see it that way, I watched the game again and saw that Duke’s defensive 4 were not getting moved off of the LOS.

What does Duke’s DB’s chucking ND’s WR’s have to do with unsuccessful running plays where Duke’s DB’s are occupied by ND’s WR’s and not involved in defending the running plays ?

Why is everyone so afraid to admit that the play of the OLine was mediocre at best ?

 

[Patrirish]

Greathouse does not start. Do you watch the games or just run your mouth?

And don you think every player comes in at the same level?

Really you can't be this dumb

Greathouse played against OSU and was listed behind Tyree

Merriweather and Tyree started against Duke, so only one WR “position” was down, not three as some claimed.

So with one WR “position” down you want to blame the poor OLine play on the WR’s ?

It was the OLine that was responsible for the poor play of the OLINE, NOT the wr’s

 

[Golson5]

I didn’t see it that way, I watched the game again and saw that Duke’s defensive 4 were not getting moved off of the LOS.

What does Duke’s DB’s chucking ND’s WR’s have to do with unsuccessful running plays where Duke’s DB’s are occupied by ND’s WR’s and not involved in defending the running plays ?

Why is everyone so afraid to admit that the play of the OLine was mediocre at best ?

No shit. Everyone knows that

So were the wrs. They were awful

 

[Golson5]

Greathouse played against OSU and was listed behind Tyree

Merriweather and Tyree started against Duke, so only one WR “position” was down, not three as some claimed.

So with one WR “position” down you want to blame the poor OLine play on the WR’s ?

It was the OLine that was responsible for the poor play of the OLINE, NOT the wr’s

You said Greathouse was a starter. That was factually incorrect

We had 5 wrs who were out last night. And the 3 wrs who we played were awful and probably gassed because of no depth

 

[sjb75]

Greathouse played against OSU and was listed behind Tyree

Merriweather and Tyree started against Duke, so only one WR “position” was down, not three as some claimed.

So with one WR “position” down you want to blame the poor OLine play on the WR’s ?

It was the OLine that was responsible for the poor play of the OLINE, NOT the wr’s

When you game plan to stop the run and over commit all night to stop Estime, don't expect the OL to look like they did against Ohio St.

That's why Evans had a big night.

 

[BGI User 756]

I didn’t see it that way, I watched the game again and saw that Duke’s defensive 4 were not getting moved off of the LOS.

What does Duke’s DB’s chucking ND’s WR’s have to do with unsuccessful running plays where Duke’s DB’s are occupied by ND’s WR’s and not involved in defending the running plays ?

Why is everyone so afraid to admit that the play of the OLine was mediocre at best ?

lets attribute it to your inability to understand assignment football. Yes, as I already stated, the OL was pushed around a bit. You can understand that, no? However the Duke defense had run blitz on when Estime was in. Their DBs also played close to the LOS and pressed the WRs a bit. So they were not respecting any passing game, which filled some running lanes. Both of Estime's TDs were scored when we used TEs and WRs to block through the hole, therefore matching numbers with their front 7 (ie, seven in the box). Their safeties came downhill fast as well. That stuffed our running game. And it started with the WRs not scaring Duke to respect them. Elko took away the run game, period.

 

[Patrirish]

lets attribute it to your inability to understand assignment football. Yes, as I already stated, the OL was pushed around a bit. You can understand that, no? However the Duke defense had run blitz on when Estime was in. Their DBs also played close to the LOS and pressed the WRs a bit. So they were not respecting any passing game, which filled some running lanes. Both of Estime's TDs were scored when we used TEs and WRs to block through the hole, therefore matching numbers with their front 7 (ie, seven in the box). Their safeties came downhill fast as well. That stuffed our running game. And it started with the WRs not scaring Duke to respect them. Elko took away the run game, period.

No, I can’t understand our OL being pushed around, or put another way, our OLine failed to dominate the LOS and open up holes, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the WR’s.

We were only down in ONE (1) WR position, the other two had their starters.

The safeties were occupied by the receivers, especially in man.

Go back and look at the tape, Duke was NOT loading the box

 

[jerbach]

Notre Dame will have played four undefeated teams in a row once the USC game is complete. Winning three of four and losing one by inches will be pretty good.

 

[deadirishpoet]

When you game plan to stop the run and over commit all night to stop Estime, don't expect the OL to look like they did against Ohio St.

That's why Evans had a big night.

Exactly

 

[BGI User 756]

No, I can’t understand our OL being pushed around, or put another way, our OLine failed to dominate the LOS and open up holes, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the WR’s.

We were only down in ONE (1) WR position, the other two had their starters.

The safeties were occupied by the receivers, especially in man.

Go back and look at the tape, Duke was NOT loading the box

yes we agree you can't understand.

Will let you in on a secret. Being down 4 WRs, especially those that had been responsible for 300 snaps in the previous 4 games, affects the WRs that did play. No matter if they are starters or not. Guess you miss the substitution protocols ND has used. The WRs on Saturday played twice their usual number of snaps per game, which leads to fatigue, poor play and decisions, and restricted play calling. That allowed Duke to keep 7 in the box more of the time without threat (note, the 'box' is defined as the area where the front 7 can affect rushing attempts)

Play calling and RB personnel also contributed, along with the OL performance

 

[Patrirish]

You said Greathouse was a starter. That was factually incorrect

We had 5 wrs who were out last night. And the 3 wrs who we played were awful and probably gassed because of no depth

We ONLY had ONE (1) WR position that was short the starting receiver, the other two WR positions were filled with theIr starters.

You created a false narrative by implying that all of our WR positions were undermanned thus putting additional pressure on the OLine causing them to underperform when nothing could be further from the truth !

You also stated that Duke was constantly loading the box, which was also untrue.

Our OLine and ONLY our OLine is responsible for their substandard play and a mediocre at best running game

 

[Patrirish]

yes we agree you can't understand.

Will let you in on a secret. Being down 4 WRs, especially those that had been responsible for 300 snaps in the previous 4 games, affects the WRs that did play. No matter if they are starters or not. Guess you miss the substitution protocols ND has used. The WRs on Saturday played twice their usual number of snaps per game, which leads to fatigue, poor play and decisions, and restricted play calling. That allowed Duke to keep 7 in the box more of the time without threat (note, the 'box' is defined as the area where the front 7 can affect rushing attempts)

Play calling and RB personnel also contributed, along with the OL performance

ND was ONLY down at ONE WR position, STOP, lying about the depth chart.

A 4-3 alignment has 4 down linemen and 3 LB’s.
That’s SOP almost universally, unless you think that LB’s usually play !0 yards off the LOS.

‘’The OLine and ONLY the OLine was responsible for their substandard performance last night

 

[Patrirish]

When you game plan to stop the run and over commit all night to stop Estime, don't expect the OL to look like they did against Ohio St.

That's why Evans had a big night.

Duke didn’t “over commit”

Go back and look at the tape.

Duke’s DLine played well and our OLine didn’t, it’s that simple !

 

[Golson5]

Duke didn’t “over commit”

Go back and look at the tape.

Duke’s DLine played well and our OLine didn’t, it’s that simple !

Everyone is wrong. And you are right. We got it

 

[Patrirish]

You said Greathouse was a starter. That was factually incorrect

We had 5 wrs who were out last night. And the 3 wrs who we played were awful and probably gassed because of no depth

“Gassed” ? Hartman only threw the ball 30 times and ND only had 11 possessions excluding the end of game fumble recovery..

Gee, I wonder how the guys who played both ways, all 60 minutes on offense and defense, were “gassed”. Were they better conditioned athletes ?

 

[Patrirish]

Everyone is wrong. And you are right. We got it

Not everyone, just you and a few others. 😜

I‘m sorry that I had to use facts to debunk your narrative

 

[Golson5]

Not everyone, just you and a few others. 😜

I‘m sorry that I had to use facts to debunk your narrative

Everyone is wrong. And You are right. Got it

 

[BGI User 756]

ND was ONLY down at ONE WR position, STOP, lying about the depth chart.

A 4-3 alignment has 4 down linemen and 3 LB’s.
That’s SOP almost universally, unless you think that LB’s usually play !0 yards off the LOS.

‘’The OLine and ONLY the OLine was responsible for their substandard performance last night

For someone that often complains about others not addressing the question, or for deflecting...you need to follow the same expectations. Maybe take your COMPREHENSION MEDS? Try to stay with us Patrice.

I didn't mention depth chart, I actually shared facts about the number of snaps that the healthy WRs were involved with on Saturday as compared to their game average. That is an important consideration to which you have no counter argument. I also referenced the number of snaps that were missing from the lineup, and since you portray yourself as an intelligent poster, I didn't think I needed to make the correlation to the amount of experience missing. Another significant consideration. I didn't lie about anything; you are infantile with how quickly you go to such accusations when any poster disagrees with you.

I also provided cause and effect summary of all of the above. I didn't mention or argue what a 4-3 is. I spoke to Duke's run blitzing tendencies and how the WRs inability to get off the LOS allowed the LBs and the safety to aggressively support the run defense. Obviously its above your paygrade.

No matter how much you embolden your print, or how much you use capitals or use quotes, you are not correct here. The OL was one of many variables that contributed to an offense that stalled. Period, end, stop

 

[BGI User 756]

“Gassed” ? Hartman only threw the ball 30 times and ND only had 11 possessions excluding the end of game fumble recovery..

Gee, I wonder how the guys who played both ways, all 60 minutes on offense and defense, were “gassed”. Were they better conditioned athletes ?

lol, you are clueless. Yes, when WRs run deep patterns or are involved in blocking downfield, they tire. Simple concept. Its not like golf where you walk or cart yourself to the next play. And we aren't talking about the 1960's when guys still play both ways. They played less snaps per game and less games back then.

 

[banmate6]

lol, you are clueless. Yes, when WRs run deep patterns or are involved in blocking downfield, they tire. Simple concept. Its not like golf where you walk or cart yourself to the next play. And we aren't talking about the 1960's when guys still play both ways. They played less snaps per game and less games back then.

I am surprised wide receivers get gassed given the stop, start, subs, and rotation of offense vs defense nature of football. Soccer players run all game non-stop, with lots of sprinting. It's not apples to apples, as even wide receivers need to be heavier than soccer player.

But I'd expect them not to run out of too much steam...as opposed to defensive lineman for example.

 

[sjb75]

I am surprised wide receivers get gassed given the stop, start, subs, and rotation of offense vs defense nature of football. Soccer players run all game non-stop, with lots of sprinting. It's not apples to apples, as even wide receivers need to be heavier than soccer player.

But I'd expect them not to run out of too much steam...as opposed to defensive lineman for example.

Shorts and a t-shirt are far easier to run in.

 

[Golson5]

I am surprised wide receivers get gassed given the stop, start, subs, and rotation of offense vs defense nature of football. Soccer players run all game non-stop, with lots of sprinting. It's not apples to apples, as even wide receivers need to be heavier than soccer player.

But I'd expect them not to run out of too much steam...as opposed to defensive lineman for example.

Soccer players do not run all game. Theres a lot of walki g and jogging mixed with bursts of running. Plus they weigh a lot less and have a lot less muscle mass

 

[Patrirish]

For someone that often complains about others not addressing the question, or for deflecting...you need to follow the same expectations. Maybe take your COMPREHENSION MEDS? Try to stay with us Patrice.

I didn't mention depth chart, I actually shared facts about the number of snaps that the healthy WRs were involved with on Saturday as compared to their game average. That is an important consideration to which you have no counter argument. I also referenced the number of snaps that were missing from the lineup, and since you portray yourself as an intelligent poster, I didn't think I needed to make the correlation to the amount of experience missing. Another significant consideration. I didn't lie about anything; you are infantile with how quickly you go to such accusations when any poster disagrees with you.

I also provided cause and effect summary of all of the above. I didn't mention or argue what a 4-3 is. I spoke to Duke's run blitzing tendencies and how the WRs inability to get off the LOS allowed the LBs and the safety to aggressively support the run defense. Obviously its above your paygrade.

No matter how much you embolden your print, or how much you use capitals or use quotes, you are not correct here. The OL was one of many variables that contributed to an offense that stalled. Period, end, stop

Of course I have a counter argument, we were only short of WR’s at ONE.(1) position, NOT all three (3)

If you didn’t lie, you certainly misrepresented the facts, you claimed that we lost 4 receivers and that we had to rely on substandard subs, when we were only short at one WR position, and NOT the other two (2) WR positions.

You also stated that the ND WR’s couldn’t get off the LOS.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Cite one play, just one, where the ND WR’s didn’t get off the LOS.
You won’t find one.
‘Golson5 and you created a false narrative not supported by the facts, and rather go back and view the tape you doubled down with your lie.
The fact is that ND’s WR’s never had a problem getting off the LOS.
That fact destroys your contention that because the WR’s couldn’t get off the LOS it enabled Duke’s LB’s and safeties to support the run, which is total BS.

Duke’s front 4 stifled ND’s running game !

The OLine was “the” primary, if not the solitary reason that the OLine didn’t perform well.

Anyone who is knowledgeable about football knows that

Blaming the OLine’s poor performance on the loss of WR’s at one (1) position is beyond absurd.

In man coverage the safeties can’t abandon their primary initial responsibility, which is covering the receivers, in order to “aggressively support the run.” That’s pure nonsense on your part. Go look at the tape and you’ll see how wrong your claim is.

Your claim that the WR’s couldn’t get off the LOS is pure BS.
Again, just look at the tape and you’ll see how wrong your claim is

LB’s almost always support the run, it’s their primary responsibility !

I’ll assume that you didn’t lie and that you just didn’t get your facts right or that you were unduly influenced by Golson’s false narrative.

 

[Patrirish]

lol, you are clueless. Yes, when WRs run deep patterns or are involved in blocking downfield, they tire. Simple concept. Its not like golf where you walk or cart yourself to the next play. And we aren't talking about the 1960's when guys still play both ways. They played less snaps per game and less games back then.

31 pass plays, most of which weren’t deep patterns !

So guys who played both ways in the 60’s, guys who played both offense and defense played fewer snaps than guys who just play offense today ?

Do the math, you can’t be that dumb !

 

[BGI User 756]

I am surprised wide receivers get gassed given the stop, start, subs, and rotation of offense vs defense nature of football. Soccer players run all game non-stop, with lots of sprinting. It's not apples to apples, as even wide receivers need to be heavier than soccer player.

But I'd expect them not to run out of too much steam...as opposed to defensive lineman for example.

They do. You watch games, right? Sprints and runs and hits every 25-35 seconds can tire you. And soccer players can find ways to rest

 

[BGI User 756]

Of course I have a counter argument, we were only short of WR’s at ONE.(1) position, NOT all three (3)

If you didn’t lie, you certainly misrepresented the facts, you claimed that we lost 4 receivers and that we had to rely on substandard subs, when we were only short at one WR position, and NOT the other two (2) WR positions.

You also stated that the ND WR’s couldn’t get off the LOS.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Cite one play, just one, where the ND WR’s didn’t get off the LOS.
You won’t find one.
‘Golson5 and you created a false narrative not supported by the facts, and rather go back and view the tape you doubled down with your lie.
The fact is that ND’s WR’s never had a problem getting off the LOS.
That fact destroys your contention that because the WR’s couldn’t get off the LOS it enabled Duke’s LB’s and safeties to support the run, which is total BS.

Duke’s front 4 stifled ND’s running game !

The OLine was “the” primary, if not the solitary reason that the OLine didn’t perform well.

Anyone who is knowledgeable about football knows that

Blaming the OLine’s poor performance on the loss of WR’s at one (1) position is beyond absurd.

In man coverage the safeties can’t abandon their primary initial responsibility, which is covering the receivers, in order to “aggressively support the run.” That’s pure nonsense on your part. Go look at the tape and you’ll see how wrong your claim is.

Your claim that the WR’s couldn’t get off the LOS is pure BS.
Again, just look at the tape and you’ll see how wrong your claim is

LB’s almost always support the run, it’s their primary responsibility !

I’ll assume that you didn’t lie and that you just didn’t get your facts right or that you were unduly influenced by Golson’s false narrative.

And I’ll just state that you are an empty can. An old, confused, lonely, crotchety one at that. And it’s obvious you derive pleasure out of declaring yourself as the know- it-all. Now go put your teeth back in your mouth.

 

[BGI User 756]

31 pass plays, most of which weren’t deep patterns !

So guys who played both ways in the 60’s, guys who played both offense and defense played fewer snaps than guys who just play offense today ?

Do the math, you can’t be that dumb !

You realize that WRs block and run routes on running plays, right? That is why the coaches manage number of snaps. Lmfao

I’ll let you do your own research. Might want to see how many plays per game back in your heyday as compared to now. Plus the number of games are 50% more now.

Anyway, go fist yourself

 

[Patrirish]

You realize that WRs block and run routes on running plays, right? That is why the coaches manage number of snaps. Lmfao

I’ll let you do your own research. Might want to see how many plays per game back in your heyday as compared to now. Plus the number of games are 50% more now.

Anyway, go fist yourself

Why don’t you look at the film before you open your mouth and insert your foot.

Then you can tell us how little blocking the WR’s did against Duke.

Do you always speak from a position of ignorance ?

There were 10 regular season games in the 60’s, when did they go to 20 in 2023 ?
You’re clueless !

WR’s blocked and ran routes in the 60’s and then they played defense when the other team had the ball.

So you think that playing both ways for 60 minutes in the 60’s is less taxing than just playing offense for 25 minutes in 2023 ? You’re clueless and a fool !

 

[banmate6]

Shorts and a t-shirt are far easier to run in.

The average now for a soccer player ranges 10km - 14km a game. I doubt the difference we're talking about here is due to pads and a helmet.

One more point comes to mind: Some US Army competitions involve running with backpacks and other gear. 30lbs in 10k runs.

I am curious about this. We're talking about some of the best athletes in football. WRs tend to be fast, athletic, and ideally better conditioned.

Soccer players do not run all game. Theres a lot of walki g and jogging mixed with bursts of running. Plus they weigh a lot less and have a lot less muscle mass

The pace ebbs and flows, but it's constant movement. With PLENTY of running. Soccer accommodates a range of build, size, speed, and power, as skill and IQ matter a lot...but NOBODY gets away from being distance runner.

Again, I'd expect WRs to adapt best to this component...and not gas in a football match.

 

[banmate6]

They do. You watch games, right? Sprints and runs and hits every 25-35 seconds can tire you. And soccer players can find ways to rest

You're not resting in a soccer game.



BTW: soccer adds extra time to any delay in games.

Again, for me it's an academic point. One surprising me. I can get being winded from getting hit...but WRs don't get hit every play and rotate. It's the one position I'd think a player can maintain pretty good stamina.