Time to join the ACC?

[Win5002]

If ND is 11-1 vs any other team that is 12-1 or 11-1, your damn right they are going to take ND. I just hope we get to see if it comes true. Don't you know ND is going to bring in more money then any other school. Well there be backlash, damn straight. Call it arrogance if you want, but it has been proven before, ND brings big bucks for both TV and the NCAA. FOX or ESPN or whoever carries the playoffs will be falling all over themselves to get a 11-1 ND team. Just watch.

I think this will be interesting to see. I don't think the selection committee looks to necessarily take the 4 best teams but instead politics will tend to enter in. From your saying you don't think they take the best team either you think its due to ratings.

I look at it this way there are 3 leagues the SEC,B1G & Pac 12 that all want teams from the ACC/ND & the Big 12 to join their leagues. They benefit from the ACC/ND & Big 12 being disadvantaged. I expect them to vote this way in years where it would not seem blatantly keeping those schools from playoff access. Leaving a 11-1 ND out over a 12-1 conference champion is not blatant. Look at who makes up the committee. Its interesting the B1G, SEC & Pac 12 all have 2 people with ties to their league(Pac actually has 3) and the Big 12 & ACC have 1.

I think the selection committee will be more biased towards what is best for the conferences they represent not tv ratings as it has been in the past with bowls.

It will be interesting to see who is right if the choices are not obvious.

 

[Win5002]

When did it become a rule that you have to play in a conference? I must have missed that. I know the NCAA doesn't care if you play in a conference. Is there some other organization that does care?

And I should note, I got home early Tuesday night and caught most of the college football shows on the ESPN channels. Every single one of them is talking about ND as a potential playoff participant if we run the table to go 11-1.

I posted right before this I thought conference politics on the selection committee will work against ND. But even if the selection committee truly tries to find the best teams at this point what real quality wins does ND have? USC is ok but they are a 3 loss team. You lost to probably what will be the champion or runner up from what is considered the weakest overall football conference. Its not a real impressive resume.

Stanford would be a nice win but they might not even win their conference and even if they do and ND beats them, if the other conference champs have 1 loss or less I tend to think their resumes will be better if it is about that.

I know ND schedules a quality schedule most years but the SOS for this year will not be that great. I don't think a scheduling arrangement with what is considered the weakest P5 league helps your scheduling if that is what the playoff selection is about.

 

[stu4don]

This NY Times Writer seems to agree with the general thinking (I think it is BS but...) Imagine we win our next three beat a one loss Stanford team and then go on to crush in the ACC championship game.

That would convince them! (But this guy seems to think a one-loss Big Ten team (OSU, MSt, even Iowa) would get in over a one-loss ND team... Same with SEC, Big 12 and Pac 10! (So you see, unless we go undefeated we really have no chance of making the final four.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

 

[Duo]

Our hopes of making the playoff are now slim to none. I did a quick check and 6/7 of the last 10 National Champs had a least one loss. Most of those teams won a conference championship game. I'd like another shot at Clemson -- or Florida State or whoever, bring 'em on...

We could keep USC and the Shamrock Series game on our schedule (for national recruiting.)

I'd be happy to drop Navy. (No disrespect, just tired of ACL injuries and hey, I'm not missing playing Mich or MSU this year.)

I think it is our only chance to get to the playoffs in the future. Going undefeated is a tough one given our schedule and I just don't see anyone giving a 11-1 team without a conference championship a shot...

Thoughts?

By the way, I'm a ND Grad who has always vehemently fought this idea --

stu4don...........

So, are you for it or against it? Here's one of your quotes:

"Imagine we win our next three beat a one loss Stanford team and then go on to crush in the ACC championship game."

Getting rid of the annual guaranteed win cupcake (Navy) would make a lot of sense but there would be a lot of "hissy fits" thrown if that were proposed. Didn't ND beat Navy something like 43 years in a friggin row!

 

[NDSMC78]

That would convince them! (But this guy seems to think a one-loss Big Ten team (OSU, MSt, even Iowa) would get in over a one-loss ND team... Same with SEC, Big 12 and Pac 10! (So you see, unless we go undefeated we really have no chance of making the final four.

What applies one year may not apply another year. Let's see how things play out.

 

[stu4don]

stu4don...........

So, are you for it or against it? Here's one of your quotes:

"Imagine we win our next three beat a one loss Stanford team and then go on to crush in the ACC championship game."

Getting rid of the annual guaranteed win cupcake (Navy) would make a lot of sense but there would be a lot of "hissy fits" thrown if that were proposed. Didn't ND beat Navy something like 43 years in a friggin row!

Navy is no longer a cupcake!

But yes, I'd like another chance at a Natty. And I think it will be very tough (impossible?) with one loss and staying indy -- Remember, we have only been undefeated twice in the last what 40+ years so our chances are pretty nil to get back to the dance as an indy (especially with our schedule, we don't play OSU cupcakes the first four weeks, so it is hard to win out every year, hell, it is hard for Alabama to do it)... I just don't see a one-loss ND team getting in without a conference affiliation and a conference championship win.

So my answer is yes! IF they stay at a four team playoff. If it goes to an 8 team playoff, then NO... We will get in with one loss then and I'd like to stay ND independent.

 

[NDSMC78]

Navy is no longer a cupcake!

But yes, I'd like another chance at a Natty. And I think it will be very tough (impossible?) with one loss and staying indy -- Remember, we have only been undefeated twice in the last what 40+ years so our chances are pretty nil to get back to the dance as an indy (especially with our schedule, we don't play OSU cupcakes the first four weeks, so it is hard to win out every year, hell, it is hard for Alabama to do it)... I just don't see a one-loss ND team getting in without a conference affiliation and a conference championship win.

So my answer is yes! IF they stay at a four team playoff. If it goes to an 8 team playoff, then NO... We will get in with one loss then and I'd like to stay ND independent.

I don't think any of us knows that a one loss ND team will have a tough time making the playoffs or not. The playoff has only been around for one year. What transpired last year may, or may not, happen again. Way too early to make any long term predictions.

 

[stu4don]

I really hope you are right. Despite today's negative Observer article I really believe this team is loaded with NFL talent on both sides of the ball (Sheldon, Jaylon, Russel -- Fuller, Procise, Stanley) and can play with anyone in the country. Hell, we stuck mighty SEC LSU with their last loss. Were a hurricane away from beating everyone's current darling Clemson. We'll see... But it is fun to be in the discussion again. Thanks to Kelly for that!

 

[IrishBlooded]

Here are the facts we absolutely do know.

1. If ND drops a game anywhere in the regular season, they no longer control their destiny. From that loss to the end of the season, they are at the hands of the playoff committee and the records of other top tier schools.
2. From the data we have, we know that the playoff committee has picked schools that have won conference championship over ones that don't participate them.
3. That you don't need to be in the top 4 in any ranking except for the 7th one published.

Everything else is open to discussion. Those are known facts.

 

[NDSMC78]

Here are the facts we absolutely do know.

1. If ND drops a game anywhere in the regular season, they no longer control their destiny. From that loss to the end of the season, they are at the hands of the playoff committee and the records of other top tier schools.
2. From the data we have, we know that the playoff committee has picked schools that have won conference championship over ones that don't participate them.
3. That you don't need to be in the top 4 in any ranking except for the 7th one published.

Everything else is open to discussion. Those are known facts.

Your first point applies to every school. Any school that loses one game no longer controls its own destiny.

 

[stu4don]

Doesn't an SEC school? If LSU or Bama drops one and then goes on to win the Championship? They do control their destiny. And probably a Big Ten school too..? We are in a much weaker position with one loss, do you argue that?

 

[NDSMC78]

Doesn't an SEC school? If LSU or Bama drops one and then goes on to win the Championship? They do control their destiny. And probably a Big Ten school too..? We are in a much weaker position with one loss, do you argue that?

No they don't. They still have to hope that other teams don't end up undefeated. As for arguing about whether a one loss SEC or Big 10 team will always get selected before a one loss ND team, you can't go by what happened iin only one year.

 

[IrishBlooded]

How many years would you need to see the same thing happen before you would take it to be true?

The B12 already has been forced to alter its 'one champion' rule. And altered the schedule for TCU and Baylor to meet at the end of this year in an effort to account for not having a CCG. Do you think that was just because they were tired of doing it the old way? Or because they wanted to maximize the chance one of the two of them go to the playoff, without having a conference championship game.

 

[Irish Grandeur]

Doesn't an SEC school? If LSU or Bama drops one and then goes on to win the Championship? They do control their destiny. And probably a Big Ten school too..? We are in a much weaker position with one loss, do you argue that?

Well, if you truly look at the SEC/B10 skeds then you will see that most only play nine 'real' games (pre-CCG). To lose two of the nine is not very impressive. ND has arguably played 12 'real' games but if insist on taking out UMASS then it would be 11. It's a tough argument to say 7-2 trumps 10-1.

 

[NDSMC78]

How many years would you need to see the same thing happen before you would take it to be true?

The B12 already has been forced to alter its 'one champion' rule. And altered the schedule for TCU and Baylor to meet at the end of this year in an effort to account for not having a CCG. Do you think that was just because they were tired of doing it the old way? Or because they wanted to maximize the chance one of the two of them go to the playoff, without having a conference championship game.

Enough years to see a pattern. Each season is going to be different. It is unusual to have, as we did last year, so many one loss teams after the CCG's are played.

 

[IrishBlooded]

Define it. If the same thing happens again this year is it then a pattern?

At the end of the day there is no way to deny that playing 13 games in a P5 conference is superior to playing 12 games in a P5 conference. It is absurd to think otherwise. Especially when that 13th game is on a neutral site with 1 week to prepare.

I look at it, from the standpoint that if ND was in that position instead of their current. This board would be yelling from the hilltops that winning that 13th game is the difference.

 

[Irish Grandeur]

ND could potentially play six top 25 teams at season's end this year. If ND goes 11-1 do you really believe that an Alabama (for instance) with two losses deserves the nod when they have played maybe four top 25 teams at season's end coupled with Middle Tennessee State, Louisiana Monroe, and Charleston Southern? If that ever becomes the case then ND needs to start playing FCS teams rather than ever join a conference.

 

[stu4don]

I've changed my mind about the no to conference thing (and I really do think it helps our chances to get into the four team football 'dance' each year.)

Other reasons:

1. Schools like Duke, Virginia, BC, Wake Forest have academic standards and grad rates similar to ND -- so why not belong to a conference like that?

2. It worked out really well for our Basketball team (ACC Champs!) and our other sports (LAX, Soccer)! I'm beginning to wonder if the whole indy thing goes the way of an expanded stadium (I was against that), grass (I was kinda against that until Kelly), and now the video board (I was once against that too.) I was for bringing WOMEN to ND ; )

This nearly sixty year old alum sees that maybe it is time for a change. Not a fan of joining the Big Ten (for recruiting purposes -- we will always be competitive in the midwest but joining the ACC makes us even more competitive in the east.) I just think the ACC is a good fit... I'll really be yelling about this if we run the table, beat stanford and a one-loss Fla State team gets in in front of us. Or even a one-loss Michigan State team gets in front of us.

Also, even if we join the ACC we can keep USC and still play a Shamrock series game in the south or west each year. (Recruiting...)

Good discussion guys. Go Irish.

 

[South Bender]

Define it. If the same thing happens again this year is it then a pattern?

At the end of the day there is no way to deny that playing 13 games in a P5 conference is superior to playing 12 games in a P5 conference. It is absurd to think otherwise. Especially when that 13th game is on a neutral site with 1 week to prepare.

I look at it, from the standpoint that if ND was in that position instead of their current. This board would be yelling from the hilltops that winning that 13th game is the difference.

Let's assume ND runs the table the rest of the way........
Stanford goes on to beat "whoever" in the PAC-12 Championship game.
Stanford finishes 11-2, ND finishes 11-1.
Does Stanford, the PAC-12 Champion, get into the playoff over ND?

No.

ND wins out and Stanford wins the PAC-12. The best we can hope for.

 

[IRISHJD98]

Define it. If the same thing happens again this year is it then a pattern?

At the end of the day there is no way to deny that playing 13 games in a P5 conference is superior to playing 12 games in a P5 conference. It is absurd to think otherwise. Especially when that 13th game is on a neutral site with 1 week to prepare.

I look at it, from the standpoint that if ND was in that position instead of their current. This board would be yelling from the hilltops that winning that 13th game is the difference.

Absurd might be a bit strong. I look back to the 2012 ACC Championship game - going into that season's 13th game against FSU, Georgia Tech was 6-6. That game could have been played on the moon and it wouldn't have added anything to the discussion. I really don't think that 2013's 13th game - FSU v. Duke - added much to the discussion either.

Opinions vary, but I wouldn't call the difference in viewpoints absurd.

 

[NDSMC78]

Define it. If the same thing happens again this year is it then a pattern?

At the end of the day there is no way to deny that playing 13 games in a P5 conference is superior to playing 12 games in a P5 conference. It is absurd to think otherwise. Especially when that 13th game is on a neutral site with 1 week to prepare.

I look at it, from the standpoint that if ND was in that position instead of their current. This board would be yelling from the hilltops that winning that 13th game is the difference.

Are you really suggesting that the mere fact one school plays 13 games and another school plays 12 games means that the first team is always superior to the second if both are undefeated? What about if the first team has a much worse SOS? What if the first team plays two FCS teams and the second team plays no FCS schools?

 

[Duo]

Navy is no longer a cupcake!

But yes, I'd like another chance at a Natty. And I think it will be very tough (impossible?) with one loss and staying indy -- Remember, we have only been undefeated twice in the last what 40+ years so our chances are pretty nil to get back to the dance as an indy (especially with our schedule, we don't play OSU cupcakes the first four weeks, so it is hard to win out every year, hell, it is hard for Alabama to do it)... I just don't see a one-loss ND team getting in without a conference affiliation and a conference championship win.

So my answer is yes! IF they stay at a four team playoff. If it goes to an 8 team playoff, then NO... We will get in with one loss then and I'd like to stay ND independent.

Stu4don............

Re: "Navy is no longer a cupcake!"

The definition of a cupcake is a team you expect to beat every year. The kind of thing where you look at your team's schedule at the beginning of the year and put a "W" next their name.

Are you telling me you really believe that Navy will beat ND in any given year? Please answer truthfully.

The only times Navy has beaten ND is when ND had some of the worst coaches in CFB or was recovering from one of those coaches they fired.

IMHO, all the service academies should play teams on the D-2 level and not D-1.

And FWIW, I absolutely agree with you that the only way ND gets invited to the final 4 is to be undefeated or to win a Conference Championship.

You unlike many here seem to embrace change.........and like it or not ND continues to change...........i.e. turf, stadium improvements, recruiting younger and younger players, uniform changes, JUMBOTRON and the list goes on. All of that was absolutely unheard of only a few short years ago! Kudos to you..........why not go with the flow as it only makes sense. Ahhh, assuming you want to play for the NC. If not then just keep everything the way it is and continue to resist any changes.

 

[IrishBlooded]

You guys are changing the scenario now.

In the conversation so far it has been 11-1 ND vs 12-1 whoever else. Keep the argument there.

If you have ND at 11-1. Winning out. Vs a 12-1 ACC champ, B1G champ, SEC champ. Which would you pick?

If winning 11 game is better than winning 10 games. Then why is winning 12 games not better than winning 11 games?

And again almost always that last game is against a ranked opponent, on a neutral field, with 1 week to prepare.

So playing that scenario. Let's say the B12 has an undefeated team finish. Either Baylor or TCU. They sit at 12-0.

And each of the B1G, ACC, and SEC have a 1 loss champion at 12-1. Do you still believe an 11-1 ND gets in above one of them?

 

[IRISHJD98]

Stu4don............

Re: "Navy is no longer a cupcake!"

The definition of a cupcake is a team you expect to beat every year. The kind of thing where you look at your team's schedule at the beginning of the year and put a "W" next their name.

Are you telling me you really believe that Navy will beat ND in any given year? Please answer truthfully.

The only times Navy has beaten ND is when ND had some of the worst coaches in CFB or was recovering from one of those coaches they fired.

IMHO, all the service academies should play teams on the D-2 level and not D-1.

And FWIW, I absolutely agree with you that the only way ND gets invited to the final 4 is to be undefeated or to win a Conference Championship.

You unlike many here seem to embrace change.........and like it or not ND continues to change...........i.e. turf, stadium improvements, recruiting younger and younger players, uniform changes, JUMBOTRON and the list goes on. All of that was absolutely unheard of only a few short years ago! Kudos to you..........why not go with the flow as it only makes sense. Ahhh, assuming you want to play for the NC. If not then just keep everything the way it is and continue to resist any changes.

I disagree. I think a cupcake is team you expect to blow out early enough to keep starters healthy and use the fourth quarter to build some depth with the backups.

Navy isn't that kind of cupcake.

 

[Duo]

I disagree. I think a cupcake is team you expect to blow out early enough to keep starters healthy and use the fourth quarter to build some depth with the backups.

Navy isn't that kind of cupcake.

Among my ND friends..........and yes, I actually have a few of them, I can not think of a person that doesn't fully expect ND to beat Navy each and every year.

So........Re: "isn't that kind of cupcake". Call it what you like.........chocolate or vanilla it's still a cupcake no matter what. (43 wins in 43 years = cupcake)

 

[NDSMC78]

You guys are changing the scenario now.

In the conversation so far it has been 11-1 ND vs 12-1 whoever else. Keep the argument there.

If you have ND at 11-1. Winning out. Vs a 12-1 ACC champ, B1G champ, SEC champ. Which would you pick?

If winning 11 game is better than winning 10 games. Then why is winning 12 games not better than winning 11 games?

And again almost always that last game is against a ranked opponent, on a neutral field, with 1 week to prepare.

So playing that scenario. Let's say the B12 has an undefeated team finish. Either Baylor or TCU. They sit at 12-0.

And each of the B1G, ACC, and SEC have a 1 loss champion at 12-1. Do you still believe an 11-1 ND gets in above one of them?

Go look at this week's polls. There are a number of 7-1 teams ranked ahead of 8-0 Iowa and Oklahoma St. SOS matters. Or it should.

 

[Duo]

Go look at this week's polls. There are a number of 7-1 teams ranked ahead of 8-0 Iowa and Oklahoma St. SOS matters. Or it should.

True........but as they continue to win the undefeated Power 5 teams will move up.

 

[IrishBlooded]

Go look at this week's polls. There are a number of 7-1 teams ranked ahead of 8-0 Iowa and Oklahoma St. SOS matters. Or it should.

Iowa sits at 47th in SoS. And is undefeated. Alabama sits at 9th. And has 1 loss. Alabama

Go look at this week's polls. There are a number of 7-1 teams ranked ahead of 8-0 Iowa and Oklahoma St. SOS matters. Or it should.

Alabama with one loss has the 9th ranked schedule and sita ranked higher than undefeated Iowa with the 47th ranked schedule. ND also sits above Iowa. And ND has the 16th ranked schedule.

However if Iowa drops a game to Indiana this weekend. And still makes the B1G conference championship. And defeats their ranked opponent there. They would sit 12-1. With their last win being in Indy. Against a (presumed) top 15 either MSU or Ohio State.

Do you think ND would be chosen in that situation?

 

[francade]

Duo is an idiot for many, many things he's said on this board & suggesting that Navy is a cupcake adds to that long, long list. Arguing against ND for playing the "cupcake" that Navy is, when the team he roots for has Chattanooga on it, is the epitome of ignorance, arrogance & stupidity. Par for the course for this uninformed ND stalker. Mix in a life, duo, & try to do something w/ it, other than the obsessive flaming on an ND board that you & your FSU buddies have done for years on end.

 

[Nocalirish]

11-1 ND is in. Strength of schedule matters.

 

[IrishBlooded]

11-1 ND is in. Strength of schedule matters.

My question is will they be in over a
12-1 Alabama
12-1 Ohio State / Michigan State
12-1 Clemson
12-0 TCU / Baylor

 

[echowaker]

My question is will they be in over a
12-1 Alabama
12-1 Ohio State / Michigan State
12-1 Clemson
12-0 TCU / Baylor

# 5 now.

 

[IrishBlooded]

# 5 now.

That didn't really answer what I asked though. My question is if you have an undefeated B12 team, and 3 Conference Champions at 12-1 (B1G, ACC, SEC) do you believe that ND would be selected at 11-1 over any of the 12-1 teams?

 

[NDEwing18]

That didn't really answer what I asked though. My question is if you have an undefeated B12 team, and 3 Conference Champions at 12-1 (B1G, ACC, SEC) do you believe that ND would be selected at 11-1 over any of the 12-1 teams?

Nocalirish doesn't have much in terms of logical thought. He believes ND would be in over a 12-1 SEC champion. Don't waste your time arguing with him.

 

[Nocalirish]

Nocalirish doesn't have much in terms of logical thought. He believes ND would be in over a 12-1 SEC champion. Don't waste your time arguing with him.

Clem is ranked #1 moron. ND's loss is to a better team.

 

[NDEwing18]

Clem is ranked #1 moron. ND's loss is to a better team.

Again, you've never been much for intelligent thought. I'm thrilled with where ND is ranked, but get back to me at season's end.

Having a "better" loss didn't help TCU last year against Ohio State.

 

[Irishjohn68]

I don't believe that a 12-1 team is better then 11-1 team. It only means the 12-1 team got to play a extra game. If ND is a better team then they will make it to the playoffs. ND also has the advantage of being a bigger draw then any other team.

 

[stu4don]

Wow! Nevermind! We lost to #1 by one yard in a hurricane and beat #2 - looks damn good.

 

[echowaker]

That didn't really answer what I asked though. My question is if you have an undefeated B12 team, and 3 Conference Champions at 12-1 (B1G, ACC, SEC) do you believe that ND would be selected at 11-1 over any of the 12-1 teams?

yes, depends on who and who that team lost to.

 

[Duo]

Don't forget..............the Final Four Committee has lots of Conference influence and Conference bias. They will lean heavily toward Conference Champions.

FWIW, there is nothing inflamatory about the above statement. That's just the way it is and that's why the Conferences were willing to go along with it in the first place. Otherwise, they would never have left the BCS.

Final Four Committee:

* 5 of the Power 5 AD's
* Former coaches
* AD's
* Players
* Administrator
* Retired member of the media