Thoughts After The Spring Game

[francade]

Blah blah blah. He played championship caliber in all but one game last season. So much so that he has been mentioned in heisman talk and you’re talking about benching him if he doesn’t improve? Lol.

A repeat performance and we’ll be in good shape and the dog killer will be in New York in December.

 

[Patrirish]

You need a reading comprehension coach. And a sedative.

I am a reading comprehension coach and I live on a heavy daily dose of sedatives

 

[Patrirish]

No one is saying book doesn't have any talent. Everyone has some form of talent. Wimbush talent wise is just on a completely different level than Book. Wimbush didn't develop the nuances that come with the position, something that book is very good at. But from a physical talent standpoint, wimbush and book aren't even close. Wimbush was as physically gifted as any QB in the country, it just didn't completely work out.

Wimbush is not an elite QB, but he had the physical talents of one. Book is a master distributor, needing very good talent around him to win a championship. He has it on offense. Now it's about getting better pocket presence and some accuracy and ability downfield. Book can run an elite offense with the talent we have. He'll never have the physical gifts of the top college qbs, but he doesn't need to be a really good QB.

How did Wimbush’s superior talent manifest itself ?

 

[Patrirish]

1. That was moronic. Book has not been good in the red zone and Wimbush was actually lethal in the red zone.

2. Wimbush poses the threat, book isn't a major threat himself, book allows the players around him to be utilized better than Brandon did.

1. That was moronic. Book has not been good in the red zone and Wimbush was actually lethal in the red zone.

2. Wimbush poses the threat, book isn't a major threat himself, book allows the players around him to be utilized better than Brandon did.

1. Why would you call it a moronic strategy when Wimbush doesn’t have the touch required for red zone passing ?

2. How can you allege that Wimbush poses a better threat when he can’t throw with the touch that’s required in the Red Zone. ?

 

[Get Nasty]

1. Why would you call it a moronic strategy when Wimbush doesn’t have the touch required for red zone passing ?

2. How can you allege that Wimbush poses a better threat when he can’t throw with the touch that’s required in the Red Zone. ?

I'll be nice and give you statistics to confirm what everyone could clearly see. Wimbush was lethal in the redzone because of his athleticism, ability to extend plays, and will to score running.

In 2017 ND converted TDs on 76% of their trips to the red zone. That is insane. To put it in perspective, the second highest TD conversion rate under Kelly is 66%.

Under book in 2018 ND was 61%. Huge difference.

http://www.cfbstats.com/2017/team/513/redzone/offense/split.html

Here's an article of a site confused as to why book was brought in for red zone as well.

Bottom line is this, long and kelly had an awful game plan for the beginning of the year when they said they were going to cater to Brandon's strengths.

https://www.onefootdown.com/2018/9/...make-no-sense-at-all-ian-book-brandon-wimbush

 

[Get Nasty]

How did Wimbush’s superior talent manifest itself ?

Highlight reels plays after highlight reel plays, followed by some head scratching plays, and a lot of head scratching play calls.

 

[Get Nasty]

Blah blah blah. He played championship caliber in all but one game last season. So much so that he has been mentioned in heisman talk and you’re talking about benching him if he doesn’t improve? Lol.

A repeat performance and we’ll be in good shape and the dog killer will be in New York in December.

You do know Wimbush was in the Heisman talk before 2018 season?

https://saturdayblitz.com/2018/05/2...reasons-brandon-wimbush-can-win-heisman-2018/

Book did not play anywhere close to championship caliber last year. That is just laughable. He had some atrocious first halves vs average opponents. He had some amazing second halves vs average opponents, but you need to play a full game. Can't come out to start games scared and hesitant. It caught up to us vs clemson when we played a great team. The defense couldn't save us.

 

[francade]

The picture you paint of book’s season is so warped, it doesn’t even deserve the back and forth. We get it, you think book was “nowhere close to championship level” and he was “atrocious” half the time. Your analysis of him should be taken w/ a grain of salt though. It means zip to me, but I’ll keep responding when you say stupid over the top $h1t about his play, which will most certainly be in the next post you make on the subject.

 

[d1042]

If one were to compare the Book style of play to a well known players style, (we are talking style and role), the kind of player would more be like a Bart Starr. He was in charge of the offense, but he was not ‘the’ offense.

 

[Get Nasty]

Book showed he has the ability to allow an offense to HUM. He just was extremely inconsistent as a first year starter (that can be somewhat expected). Just because his completion % was good all year doesn't mean he was consistent. I've provided enough videos, stats, facts, links to back that up. What alarms me the most about book is he got worse as the season went on. That's based on facts, statistics, not opinion. Also, we had our most efficient game offensively towards the end of the year with Wimbush, so that shows it wasn't the players around book declining. A formula last year to beat book was out there towards the end of the year, and ND wasn't able to completely adjust to it. The lack of pocket presence and downfield passing hurt.

I'm rooting for Book to make big improvements in the pocket, that alone will help all aspects of the offense especially vertical passing. I don't have extreme confidence in it because QBs have typically declined their second year starting under Kelly. With that said, I believe we have much better weapons and will have a better oline than 2018. That alone should help.

WE need book to step up and help this offense become lethal. The defense can only be worse than last year, how much of a drop is the question. We need the offense to explode. Phil isn't ready to completely take over.

 

[Get Nasty]

If one were to compare the Book style of play to a well known players style, (we are talking style and role), the kind of player would more be like a Bart Starr. He was in charge of the offense, but he was not ‘the’ offense.

Book himself has said he wants to be like Drew Brees. I see a lot of similarities. The difference is Brees was extremely tough and smart in the pocket and his downfield passing is pin point accurate. You can't be like drew brees, and constantly panic in the pocket.

The throws brees makes under pressure and right before being hit are what make him so special. Book hardly made any throws under pressure or before getting hit. He almost always tried to evade the rush/push first, then make a play. Book looks to scramble if his first read or two isn't there and the pocket is fine.

 

[Patrirish]

Highlight reels plays after highlight reel plays, followed by some head scratching plays, and a lot of head scratching play calls.

Lots of duplicate plays in your highlight reels, and many of his runs are because he failed to see his receivers and broke from the pocket.

That’s what you call, “Happy Feet” isn’t it.

Those were also pretty short highlight reels.

The facts are that he turned the ball over, only completed 52 % of his passes and ran for 3.8 yards per attempt.

Those stats don’t lie and they don’t scare opposing coaches/teams.

 

[nemeth#5]

I only browsed the 5 pages but noticed some funny stuff. Did PatIrish ask if Belichick knows anything about football? Like he was comparing himself to Bill B... because neither of them played football? News flash... you are posting on a free forum like you know what you are talking about and arguing with guys who have played (ecko) or have been heavily involved in recruiting/analysis (IIO) ..... Bill B has been directly involved in football for like 50 years?

PatIrish is rapidly climbing the ignorant poster ladder here at the forum..... Will be on the Mount Rushmore soon...... which is impressive. And he has done so very quickly. Bravo

 

[Get Nasty]

I only browsed the 5 pages but noticed some funny stuff. Did PatIrish ask if Belichick knows anything about football? Like he was comparing himself to Bill B... because neither of them played football? News flash... you are posting on a free forum like you know what you are talking about and arguing with guys who have played (ecko) or have been heavily involved in recruiting/analysis (IIO) ..... Bill B has been directly involved in football for like 50 years?

PatIrish is rapidly climbing the ignorant poster ladder here at the forum..... Will be on the Mount Rushmore soon...... which is impressive. And he has done so very quickly. Bravo

Yep, his posts come off like he didn't watch the game, just looked at the box score and makes opinions based on that.

 

[Patrirish]

I only browsed the 5 pages but noticed some funny stuff. Did PatIrish ask if Belichick knows anything about football? Like he was comparing himself to Bill B... because neither of them played football? News flash... you are posting on a free forum like you know what you are talking about and arguing with guys who have played (ecko) or have been heavily involved in recruiting/analysis (IIO) ..... Bill B has been directly involved in football for like 50 years?

PatIrish is rapidly climbing the ignorant poster ladder here at the forum..... Will be on the Mount Rushmore soon...... which is impressive. And he has done so very quickly. Bravo

NO, Patrirish did not “ask if Belichick knows anything about football.”

But, Patrirish does ask if Neneth#5 possesses the slightest iota of reading comprehension skills.

You should also know that Bill Belichick played football, just not in the NFL.

Patrirish does know what he’s talking about.

So it’s your stated position that “arguing with guys who have played” automatically disqualifies and invalidates one’s opinion.

That’s one of the dumbest comments I’ve read on this site.
In case you’re not familiar with it, that’s known as the terribly flawed and failed “argument from authority”
Have someone who understands it, explain it to you.

Discussions and debates rise and fall on their merits, on the facts and logic they contain, and not upon who’s positing them.

Does the substance of an expressed opinion change, based upon whether or not the person advocating that opinion is a football enthusiast or a consultant to an NFL team ?

 

[Patrirish]

Yep, his posts come off like he didn't watch the game, just looked at the box score and makes opinions based on that.

I’d venture to say that I watched the Clemson game half a dozen times, and in addition, in slow motion on most plays.

I logged and analyzed each play.

Unfortunately, I didn’t save the game beyond its auto expiry date or I would have watched it more frequently.

But I get your point, when you and nemeth#5 can’t win an argument and when your position gets refuted vis a vis facts and logic, you resort to denigrating the opposition.

I understand your frustration and desperation and don’t have a problem with it.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Pedigree ? How arrogant !

Are you sure that you don’t mean: Curriculum Vitae ?

When one resorts to falling back on the “argument of authority” rather than the merits of their position, you know that they’ve lost the debate.

Ben Shapiro provides an interesting talk on how weak the “argument of authority” is.

Out of curiosity, what was Bill Belichick’s “pedigree”. ?

I knew it! Somebody else invoking their best Ben Shapiro impression, without understanding the big picture.

I love Ben for the most part. I agree with the vast majority of what he fights for in the media, but like every other person on this planet, he's wrong at times. Generally that occurs when he tries to step outside his area of expertise and debate those who are brilliant professionals in theirs. It happens to all of us at times, and Ben is no more immune to it happening to him than anyone else. You or me included.

Here is a prime example of what I'm talking about. He tried to debate former Prime Minister Stephen Harper on trade and economics (global trade and economics in particular) on his Sunday Special. Watch the full episode. About 10-15 minutes in Ben realizes... "Oh shit, this guy was a brilliant economist long before he was Prime Minister and he knows far more than I do on this topic, so I'm going to get off my high horse, consider his opinion and learn something from someone who is more versed on this topic than I am." I'm sure Harper would have done the same if they were talking about let's say Judaism and anything surrounding it, or procedural law. Why? Because Ben is a practicing Jew and a lawyer... It's what smart people do. They learn from those around them that know more about a topic than they do.

With that said, I've always encouraged discussion on this board, regardless what your background is in the game. There are plenty of people that never played the game at a scholarship or paid level, that know plenty about it. I'm completely willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're well versed in football, but you don't want to have a back and forth debate. You started your critique by making an accusation of me that was completely untrue (my opinion on Ian vs Phil), then went on the defensive when Echowaker made a passing remark about your opinion, something you did to me several posts earlier... The thread fell about from there.

I'm sorry, just because you follow him, you're not Ben Shapiro (and again, I'm a huge fan). Just like as much as I fancy myself a much better than average quarterback in the grand scheme of things (played on scholarship), I'm not Aaron Rodgers, as much as I want to be.

You're entitled to your opinion and I'm happy to go back-and-forth with you on the topic of football, as long as you don't falsify people's opinions and create circular arguments against positions they did not take.

In case you missed it, here was the episode Ben got a lesson in economics from an economist who did an exceptional job (comparatively) of helping navigate the 2008 financial disaster... I was incredibly proud of Ben in this debate because he showed that he's man enough to listen and get educated on a topic and he did so with class and professionalism.



Cheers, and keep posting! But you don't need to go on the ultra defensive when someone disagrees with you.

 

[Patrirish]

IIO, I never stated or insinuated in any manner that I was Ben Shapiro. When others postured that their position is superior to all others because they played and/or coached football, that falls within the confines of the “argument from authority” . Opinions, Positions and arguments should rise and fall solely on their merits, not their author or their author’s credentials.

I would imagine that those employing the “argument from authority” never heard of a professional, a specialist, a physician making an incorrect diagnosis.

Facts and logic tend to determine the merits of a position, not the author’s claim to fame.

Happy to discuss and/or debate with you anytime.

Have a Happy Easter with your family.

P.S. I’m pretty sure that I understand the big picture.

 

[francade]

“He just was extremely inconsistent as a first year starter”

Pure hogwash

 

[nemeth#5]

I’d venture to say that I watched the Clemson game half a dozen times, and in addition, in slow motion on most plays.

I logged and analyzed each play.

Unfortunately, I didn’t save the game beyond its auto expiry date or I would have watched it more frequently.

But I get your point, when you and nemeth#5 can’t win an argument and when your position gets refuted vis a vis facts and logic, you resort to denigrating the opposition.

I understand your frustration and desperation and don’t have a problem with it.

Didn't know I was in an argument..... but you are doing a good job at making a fool of yourself.... keep going... you are on the short list.

 

[d1042]

Didn't know I was in an argument..... but you are doing a good job at making a fool of yourself.... keep going... you are on the short list.

apparently, he does not need an adversely to engage in argument.

 

[mirer03]

If one were to compare the Book style of play to a well known players style, (we are talking style and role), the kind of player would more be like a Bart Starr. He was in charge of the offense, but he was not ‘the’ offense.

Chad Pennigton

 

[d1042]

Chad Pennigton

Book has a much stronger arm than Pennington had.

 

[Get Nasty]

Book has a much stronger arm than Pennington had.

I'm going with a poor mans Colt McCoy. McCoy was extremely accurate, athletic enough, smart, a little small, not a huge arm, and at times happy feet. The difference between the two in my opinion with book right now is McCoy was lethal down the field in college.

 

[d1042]

McCoy was a bigger running threat than Book.

Actually a few years back Alabama won a NC with a guy like Book. McElroy?

 

[Golson5]

Book is much better than Mcelroy was

 

[Get Nasty]

McCoy was a bigger running threat than Book.

Actually a few years back Alabama won a NC with a guy like Book. McElroy?

I don't think McCoy was a bigger running threat from an ability standpoint. I think there was more opportunity to run because Defenses vs McCoy and Texas had to play so much more field because of how they stretched the ball vertically. That opened up room for qb sneaks or if he got flushed to run. With Book, Defenses pack the D so tight to the line, there's not much running room. If we can push the ball vertically more this year, when book leaves the pocket, there will be more room to run.

 

[Patrirish]

Didn't know I was in an argument..... but you are doing a good job at making a fool of yourself.... keep going... you are on the short list.

Evidently, you and d1042 don’t possess one iota of reading comprehension.

Go back and reread my post to IIO.

If, after rereading it you still don’t understand the context of the three facets of dialogue, have someone with a brain explain it to the two of you.

 

[d1042]

Evidently, you and d1042 don’t possess one iota of reading comprehension.

Go back and reread my post to IIO.

If, after rereading it you still don’t understand the context of the three facets of dialogue, have someone with a brain explain it to the two of you.

Actually, it was not a matter of reading comprehension, I stopped reading your posts, boorish debates.

 

[Patrirish]

Actually, it was not a matter of reading comprehension, I stopped reading your posts, boorish debates.

That’s a lie because you commented on Nemeth#5’s post on my previous post.

Which meant that you read both.

Given the choice, i’d rather be boorish than a liar like you !

 

[nemeth#5]

That’s a lie because you commented on Nemeth#5’s post on my previous post.

Which meant that you read both.

Given the choice, i’d rather be boorish than a liar like you !

hahahahaha.... impressive.

 

[d1042]

hahahahaha.... impressive.

I read nemeth, in reply to you. I do not have you on ignore, generally, I just glance at your rants and move on. Then you usually get in some ludicrous debate and depending on the posters, I might look at a post.
It’s freakin Football! It ain't that damned important!

 

[nemeth#5]

I read nemeth, in reply to you. I do not have you on ignore, generally, I just glance at your rants and move on. Then you usually get in some ludicrous debate and depending on the posters, I might look at a post.
It’s freakin Football! It ain't that damned important!

??? Now I am confused!

 

[d1042]

??? Now I am confused!

no, He used your post to claim Iwas reading ‘all’ his posts. So I used his quote (of your post), in reply to him.
My comments were directed to Pattirish(sp:IDGAS)

 

[Patrirish]

I read nemeth, in reply to you. I do not have you on ignore, generally, I just glance at your rants and move on. Then you usually get in some ludicrous debate and depending on the posters, I might look at a post.
It’s freakin Football! It ain't that damned important!

Right, and you bought “Playboy” and “Penthouse”just to read the articles.

Who said it was important ?

 

[Patrirish]

???

Now I am confused!

Nemeth#5,

So is d1042.

 

[d1042]

Nemeth#5,

So is d1042.

I am thinking that you have found a way to turn off the parental guidance setting on your computer!

 

[Patrirish]

I am thinking that you have found a way to turn off the parental guidance setting on your computer!

I thought YOU CLEARLY STATED THAT YOU DON’T READ MY POSTS.

Evidently, you can’t tell the truth !