do you know if Book deserved to start over Wimbush based on how he performed in the spring and summer of 2018 or is that just your usual hindsighting after the fact ? why weren't you here last summer clamoring for Book to start ? because you didn't join until November well after the fact.
Thoughts After The Spring Game
- Thread starter IrishInOntario
- Start date
Then you should have no problem answering the question I posed, which only requires either a “yes” or “no” answer. If Book gets injured and is out for the rest of the year, is ND’s season essentially over ?
YES or NO ?
You seem incapable of connecting the dots and/or understanding progressive and/or geometric like logic.
You seem to constantly fall back on the argument of authority, constantly citing your playing and coaching background rather than relying on the facts and logic that might support your particular position.
Do the merits of my positions rise and fall based solely on whether I’m a student of the game or a consultant with an NFL team ?
i already did some 45 minutes ago. my answer as of today April 15, 2019 is a definite NO. thinking it is or is not is nothing more than conjecture at this point in time. its the ultimate team game. yes the QB is the most high profile position but many, many teams have been successful with average at best QB play. Heaven forbid Book would incur a season ending injury but if that unfortunate occurrence would happen i have faith that ND would be able to carry on successfully. No player is bigger than the program.
Yeah, “I don’t understand how things work”
Do you mean like Kizer cutting through Texas like a hot knife through butter, resulting in a ruthlessly efficient TD, and then benching him on the next offensive series and starting Zaire.
And then doing it a second time.
Is that what you mean when you state that “I don’t understand how things work” ? But, of course you do, because you played and coached the game, therefore all opinions must defer to your opinion, oh mighty and high exalted one
So, it’s your opinion that my knowledge base and understanding of football only began in November, when I joined this particular site?
So it was only my participation on this site that enabled me to learn about football.
Long before I joined this site I recognized the 3 items below
Wimbush never possessed recognition skills.
Wimbush never possessed touch.
Wimbush never possessed accuracy.
The issue at hand isn’t ND’s 12-1 season last year, it’s about promoting or limiting Book’s running in the upcoming season.
You want to promote it, and I want to limit it.
That you don’t recognize and acknowledge the consequences of an injury to Book is stunning, especially when you have so much playing and coaching experience to your credit.
Oh my goodness, that’s your response. ?
“No player is bigger than the program”. ?
Please, call Belichick and let him know that.
Tell him that if he had Brady run more that he would have a dozen Super Bowl rings
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you and others posit that ND essentially lost to Clemson only after Love was injured and came out of the game.
You don’t put your most valuable asset at risk.
You don’t deliberately send your only viable QB in harms way.
You protect your QB.
Isn’t that why left tackles are so important ?
But what do I know, I only joined this site in November.
who said i want to promote it ? the RPO is part of the offense. Book is adept at running it. not taking advantage of that would not be making full use of your teams offensive abilities. its really as simple as that. as to your opinions before you joined you can say whatever you want. none of it can be proven.
i agree you don't know much. are you actually comparing Books stature to that of Tom Brady ? for the record i have always said the biggest difference in the Clemson game was QB play. theirs was great and NDs was lousy. of course there were other factors but that was the biggest in my opinion. Left tackles ? good lord you really have no clue about the college game do you ? Saquon Barkley was clearly Penn States most valuable asset. should they not have run him as much ? you maximize your assets period. ND is a better offense with Book running some RPO.
I can’t tell you what I know, but I can tell you that Kelly failed to identify Kizer as a better QB than Zaire and Book as a better QB than Wimbush.
I can also tell you that I recognized Wimbush’s short comings on 09-02-27, and that I expressed that opinion to others on that date, which precedes my joining this site by a considerable amount of time.
When did you first notice his short comings ?
"I can’t tell you what I know, but I can tell you that Kelly failed to identify Kizer as a better QB than Zaire and Book as a better QB than Wimbush."
And were you at any of the spring/fall practices that lead up to those seasons? Do you know how Kizer and Book performed then in order to make those decisions?
I NEVER compared Book’s and Brady’s stature, that’s your misguided attempt to justify your position.
What I compared was their relative importance to their respective teams, and how a season ending injury would impact their respective seasons.
Saquan Barkley is a running back, not a QB.
You run running backs often, not QB’s
Try, as difficult as it may be for you, to stay on topic.
If you have a very efficient passing QB, you protect him, and that starts with the left tackle, his blind side protection.
As a player and coach I would have thought you knew that.
I know that talent will out and rise to the top, or do you think that Kizer miraculously blossomed in the Virginia game.
But since you choose that argument, tell me how you justify Kelly benching Kizer and starting Zaire right after Kizer cut through the Texas defense for a quick TD.
Then, try to justify Kelly doing it a second time.
It was inexcusable.
Now, since echo thinks I know less than nothing, i’ll Tell you my theory.
Kelly is in love with the RPO, he’s incontrovertibly committed to it.
I don’t doubt that Kelly thought that Zaire ran the RPO better than Kizer.
I don’t doubt that Kelly thought that Wimbush ran the RPO better than Book.
But neither Zaire or Wimbush we’re better passing QB’s than Kizer and Book.
When it’s 3rd and 15 or if your behind in the game with little time left, an RPO QB and an RPO offense aren’t going to cut it.
Not to diminish the run, but the passing game has been elevated to almost deity status in college and the NFL.
And in case you didn’t know it, most, if not all talented high school QB’s dream of playing on Sunday after they play on Saturday, and a QB doesn’t get to play on Sunday because he’s a good runner in an RPO offense !
If Book gets hurt the season is over, that’s for damn sure. According to the coaches who you love to cite, and according to anyone with eyeballs, PJ is lightyears away from being ready.
And before you say it “BUT KIZER”, at least he was a good thrower of the football and understood the fundamentals of the offense spring of 15. He considered playing baseball because of where he was on the depth chart, with talented wimbush seen as the future.
Book was for sure a better more crisp QB the spring and summer heading into 18, but Brandon was seen as more dynamic. That’s been reported on
Brandon has the type of talent that if he developed some basics he could lead a team to a championship. He just didn't develop. Book doesn't have that talent, but he is much more refined. He needs studs around him to distribute to. He has that this year even better than last. He just needs better pocket awareness and a better deep ball. Huge improvements needed to be a championship team. We haven't seen huge improvements under kelly at the QB position from a starter to the next year as a starter. I am guessing we see relatively the same Ian book, with a few more talented weapons around him. Good, but not championship caliber.
I say again... Deshone Kizer contemplated giving up football as a sophomore because of how poorly he was playing and how bad his confidence was in 2015. The coaches convinced him to stick it out into the fall. Half way through game 2 of the season, Malik Zaire broke his ankle at Virginia and Kizer went on to have arguably th best season of any QB in the Brian Kelly era, despite starting only 11 games. So much can change in 6 months. People that are just assuming that Phil would be terrible, playing with the starters, 6 months from now if Ian were to sustain an injury, are grossly overreacting based one condensed game, leading mostly the 2nd unit, in a spring game.
Is he ready for primetime? No. Is ND "screwed" if Ian Book were to get injured? Were they screwed in 2015 when Kizer went in?.. You have to see it play out.
Is he ready for primetime? No. Is ND "screwed" if Ian Book were to get injured? Were they screwed in 2015 when Kizer went in?.. You have to see it play out.
IIO,
Kizer didn’t contemplate giving up footbal solely because of how poorly he was playing, there were other factors that were causing him concern.
Do you really believe that he had an epiphany on the bench in the VA game and miraculously transformed into an NFL quality QB.
Kizer ALWAYS had the talent, Kelly just never recognized it.
It was thrust on Kelly when Kizer saved the day against VA and for the rest of the season.
My guess, and it’s an educated guess, is that Kelly had to alter his game plans once Zaire went down and Kizer became the future.
So you’re equating Phil’s talent and ability with Kizer’s talent and ability ?
Kizer opted prematurely for the NFL and still became a starting QB in the NFL in his rookie year.
You want to gamble with the future by having BOOK run the RPO after you’ve admitted that Phil isn’t ready for prime time.
I don’t want to take that gamble.
I don’t know of a prudent coach that would.
Phil has lots of talent too. He's simply in a similar place in terms of confidence and learning that Kizer was in the spring of 2015. In fact, anyone that is at all objective, knows that Phil is ahead of where Kizer was at the same point.
Phil didn't enroll early. He was #3 last year. This is his first summer knowing what he's doing, throwing with his guys. I'll worry if he looks like he did on Saturday come the opener against Louisville.. By all accounts he did not look like that the majority of the time during spring practice, and I'm willing to bet he makes improvements prior to the fall... If not Clark will pass him by at some point and life goes on.
The overreaction to a spring game on behalf of some people on this board, is crazy.
Here’s the thing, do you think Phil if thrusted into action this year would be anywhere close to kizer in 15?
Phil is better now than Kizer was in the spring of 2015... That's the only reasonable comparison that anyone can make. Maybe he never becomes as good as Kizer, maybe he surpasses him. It's wayyy too early for anyone to be making concrete, long term judgments.
How can a QB with Books stats and success not have talent ?
In the words of that great American philosopher, Clint Eastwood, “A man has to know his limitations”
Wimbush lacked recognition skills.
At his age and experience, you don’t develop those things in time.
He’s limited in his abilities.
Ditto with touch, if he doesn’t have it by now it’s doubtful that he’ll ever develop it.
He’s a fine young man and I wish him well, but he’s not the elite QB everybody touted him to be.
Ask me in September... Because if you asked me in the spring of 2015, when Kizer couldn't throw a ball 8 yards, I would have been horrified to have him starting as well. That's the point I keep making. You cannot compare September Kizer, playing with ND's starters, behind a starting offensive line, to spring Phil, playing behind an overmatched group of freshman and sophomores on the offensive line, without any starting wide receivers.
Am I terribly worried about what I saw from Phil playing behind a 265lb center and a makeshift offensive line, going against Daelin Hayes , Ade Ogundeji and Jayson Ademilola, getting whistled everytime some touches a 6'5, 220lb athletic QB?
No.
No knowledgeable person would make that statement!
Kizer’s talent level didn’t skyrocket between the Spring and fall of 2015,
What changed was that Kizer’s talent became undeniable based on his performance.
Kelly didn’t recognize his talent.
Fast forward to Texas in 2016 and Kelly repeats his errors by benching Kizer in favor of Zaire, not once, but twice.
Kelly has an inherent bias for the RPO, a bias that prevents him from properly assessing QB talent
I don't think his talent level changed drastically. I think his confidence changed significantly and his increased command of the offense allowed his natural skills to shine through.
I think the same thing will happen for Phil. I don't think he has a talent issue at all. I think the game is happening really fast for him right now and he's a second or two late in recognition. I also think that they've made some adjustments to his throwing motion and he's thinking about throwing the ball instead of simply driving it on target.
I've seen it more times than I can count. A stud quarterback comes to the college level and is just trying not to drown. In the process, he looks like he lacks talent, when in reality, he's simply not ready to play free and let it rip. Too much thinking and not enough reacting.
Remember Ian Book as a sophomore when he was forced into starting against North Carolina on the road. Did that Ian Book look at all like the guy who commands the offense with confidence and a clear head now?
Nope.
It’s not just Phil’s spring, all the signs and statistics about Qb development both at ND and nationwide scare me. In 2019 you get a much earlier indicator of how a qb will pan out then even 5 years ago.
Statistically speaking, literally most highly rated QB’s do not pan out.
He just hasn’t shown anything ever since his senior year of high school. Watching him in the all star game made me cringe. Throwing un catchable ducks and horrible deep shots and poor pocket awareness is a massive red flag.
Because book is already limited in the deep passing game. If you take away the rpo you are giving top defenses a gift. You will be the first to complain if ND loses because kelly goes conservative to protect book. Itd got to be part of the game plan
Pat, you've made this claim in a previous thread. It's factually wrong. Kizer has said so himself. You even alluded to having an understanding of this fact in an earlier post when you said:
"Kizer didn’t contemplate giving up football solely because of how poorly he was playing, there were other factors that were causing him concern."
You actually admit he was playing poorly and it wasn't just in the spring game. Yes, there were other factors but he was playing poorly and that was a big reason why he thought about quitting. I gave you a link to an article that goes into detail about Kizer's thoughts during the spring of 2015 and Mike Sanford's handling of Kizer during that time. Here's the pertinent excerpt that goes into detail about what happened after the spring game:
So when you say "Kizer's talent level didn't skyrocket between the spring and fall of 2015," that's actually exactly what happened and Sanford says he saw it happen.
I made the mistake of editing my original post and adding the word “solely”
So let me re-edit and remove it for the purpose of our discussion.
Kizer didn’t go from a no talent QB to a superstar over the summer of 2015
Sanford never recognized Kizer’s talent in the first place.
Kizer’s “talent” was there, it just took Sanford and Kelly too much time to finally become aware of it.
Talent is innate, it doesn’t mysteriously materialize out of thin air.
Kizer didn’t go from a no talent sophomore in 2015 to a starting NFL QB in 2 years because he miraculously acquired talent over the summer of 2015.
The coaching staff failed to recognize that Kizer was far more talented than Zaire and they repeated that mistake with Book and Wimbush.
To reinforce my position, explain to us why, after Kizer had a sensational year in 2015, that Kelly in the opening game against Texas in 2016, benched Kizer after he just scored on Texas and started Zaire instead.
Then explain to us why he repeated that same mistake on a following offensive series !
Could it be because Kelly’s in love with the RPO and still didn’t recognize Kizer’s innate talent, that he didn’t recognize that Kizer was at a significantly higher level than Zaire ?
Who would bench a highly successful QB that’s about to become a starting NFL QB in his rookie year in the NFL over a QB who transferred to another college and was unable to win the starting job ?
Yeah, somehow a miracle occurred over the summer of 2015 and Kizer went from a no talent QB to a superstar in just 3 summer months.
For this discussion, let’s pretend I agree with you about Book.
You’re faced with a simple choice, either
1. Risk having a season ending injury end your season, or
2. Give top defenses a limited edge
What do you chose ?
I go with # 2.
But before you answer 1 or 2 above, answer this, how much of a gift would you give top defenses if Book is out for the season ?
Pat, this post right here is a perfect example of why it's difficult to engage with you on a message board. You refuse to back down from an argument even when it's been proven to be demonstrably false. So let me restate some points just so we're completely clear.
- Kizer himself said he wasn't playing well during the spring of 2015.
- Kizer said he wasn't mentally focused on football in the spring of 2015.
- Kizer performed so poorly that spring and especially during the BG game that he considered quitting football.
- None of the 1st 3 points have anything to do with the coaches. Kizer was more focused on things outside of football (he had a good excuse). He wasn't practicing correctly by his own admission.
- None of the 1st 3 points have to do with talent.
- Kizer could have had all the talent in the world, but if he wasn't practicing well, and he definitely was not, no quality coach in the world would overlook the poor play and move him to the starting spot especially when the starter was practicing well.
- When Kizer reached his low point he sought guidance from Sanford.
- Sanford told him he needed to rededicate himself both mentally and physically.
- Kizer agreed. Not only was he not mentally in good shape he was not physically in good shape. Yet another reason why he wasn't playing well to that point.
- From that point on, Kizer changed his diet, got in shape, and completely focused on football.
- Sanford said he saw the transformation firsthand during the summer of 2015. He also was well aware that Kizer was outperforming Zaire at times in practice - this hadn't been happening during the spring.
- The coaches ALWAYS knew Kizer had talent. How do we know? They recruited him. There was never a time that BK or Sanford thought Kizer had "no talent."
BK has mishandled several QB situations while at ND but he did NOT mishandle Kizer in 2015. You'd have to completely ignore the 12 points above to say otherwise. That is to say, you'd have to completely ignore the facts to stick to that story.
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