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Recruiting is not good at ND (can we get past this idea that recruiting has been good here?)

if the recruiting rankings were truly all there was then Alabama would have about a 50 game win streak. and no one of the top 5 would be out of the hunt the whole time.

Recruiting rankings - taken from all the top services and averaged- do indeed show that those at the top will do better. But I notice some teams do a lot better then others ranked right with them.

That is called coaching and that is the other leg of the chair. You have three legs: coaching, recruiting and academics.

We all know how academics are treated at virtually all the football factories. Huge advantage for them- biggest they could get.

So you have to make it up with strengthening the other two legs.

ND recruits well enough to compete for the NC if we have excellent coaching. We do not right now; we have good coaching and that is all.

We can recruit better and we certainly can coach better. The real difficult thing is to get a coach that does both about equally well and that is the hard part.
AND the coach also has to have the ability to build a top staff. Once again Kelly is spotty on that.

But the idea that the gomer starting this thread claims that we can never win a NC is total HC. Look how recently we were in the hunt almost to the end. With better coaching we just might have gotten to the NC game. Now winning a NC is the last step and you do not know if a coach can do it until he does.

Saban is so good at getting his team ready for the big games and that is probably his biggest edge outside of recruiting. Kelly unfortunately once again has a spotty record at that.

Yes we do need a better coach then Kelly if we want to win a NC. Problem is finding that very special coach.
 
It's certainly good enough to beat every team on our schedule this year and good enough to beat 10 out of 12 teams on an annual basis.

Is it good enough to beat the likes Bama and O$U, probably not nor will it ever be in this environment.
It's highly unlikely that we could ever achieve Bama status, where you basically have better players, in many cases much better players, than the opponent does in every game you play. That is the reality for Bama right now. They do have very good coaches, very highly paid, but the reality is they win overwhelmingly because they have better players on every level of the depth chart than the other team does. It's not magic.

Now, we should, even with all of our supposed "problems", be able to recruit at a level where we have better players than say 75% of our opponents, equal players to 15% of our opponents, and maybe inferior players to 10% of our opponents, on an yearly basis. If you win 90% of the games against inferior opponents, 50% against equal opponents, and 25% against superior opponents, you will have a 77.5% winning percentage, average 9 wins in the regular season, 10 wins overall. That means you have the occasional 8-5 year, the occasional 12-1 or 13-0 year. And we'd all live happily ever after.
 
It's highly unlikely that we could ever achieve Bama status, where you basically have better players, in many cases much better players, than the opponent does in every game you play. That is the reality for Bama right now. They do have very good coaches, very highly paid, but the reality is they win overwhelmingly because they have better players on every level of the depth chart than the other team does. It's not magic.

Now, we should, even with all of our supposed "problems", be able to recruit at a level where we have better players than say 75% of our opponents, equal players to 15% of our opponents, and maybe inferior players to 10% of our opponents, on an yearly basis. If you win 90% of the games against inferior opponents, 50% against equal opponents, and 25% against superior opponents, you will have a 77.5% winning percentage, average 9 wins in the regular season, 10 wins overall. That means you have the occasional 8-5 year, the occasional 12-1 or 13-0 year. And we'd all live happily ever after.

The biggest edge as regards talent for Alabama and OSU and those that recruit in the top 5 virtually every year is DEPTH. I think we can recruit so that our starters can go toe to toe with Alabama and OSU. OUR problem is that we cannot recruit the kind of depth they have. SO luck will always play a part in any NC shot we have- we need to have very few injuries to starters.
 
The biggest edge as regards talent for Alabama and OSU and those that recruit in the top 5 virtually every year is DEPTH. I think we can recruit so that our starters can go toe to toe with Alabama and OSU. OUR problem is that we cannot recruit the kind of depth they have. SO luck will always play a part in any NC shot we have- we need to have very few injuries to starters.
Yes. With the overall changes to the structure of college football, the migration of the talent pool southward, and so many more competitive teams, we are not going to have a Holtz-era situation where we have better lineman on both sides of the ball than all the teams we play, and just as good skill players. So we will need a little luck along the way to win a national championship. IMHO, you can't hang your hat on winning national championships or you will be disappointed just about every season. But you can hang your hat on competing at that level more seasons than not. That's not unrealistic.
 
The biggest edge as regards talent for Alabama and OSU and those that recruit in the top 5 virtually every year is DEPTH. I think we can recruit so that our starters can go toe to toe with Alabama and OSU. OUR problem is that we cannot recruit the kind of depth they have. SO luck will always play a part in any NC shot we have- we need to have very few injuries to starters.
Not to mention the academic rigors of ND mean the players can't spend nearly the time on football that Bama players can.
 
Much of this discussion is really about the metrics used to evaluate the program, and Kelly as the man in charge. On the academic side, I guess we should expect one or two casualties a year, but personally ignorant of the process in place to monitor status and to ensure tutoring is available and used when needed. On the football side, my expectations are clearly different than those of the administration. I want the team to be perennially ranked in the top ten at seasons end, I want to compete in the playoffs three or four times a decade, and I want to win the NC at least once each decade. Don't know how this squares with the expectations of you on this board, but thought Kelly had the program on track to achieve this. After seven years and this year's debacle, I think it's fair to say we have failed to meet these metrics, and I no longer believe Kelly is the man to take the program to this level, nor do I see anything to suggest the Administration is serious about demanding this level of performance. Absent this, ND will increasingly lose its national appeal as we old subway alum pass on, and they will become simply a regional program, which then argues for joining a conference.
 
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Could recruiting be better? Absolutely.
Is recruiting good enough to be a top 10 team? Absolutely.

How many times have we watched the team have success running the ball on a drive only to throw the ball 3 times in a row once in the red zone and then settle for a field goal or no points at all? -That is on the coach.

How many times have we watched poor sideline play calls lead to not getting at least 3 points that proved to be the difference between winning and losing? -That is on the coach.

I could go on and on but I won't because there is really no point.

Brian Kelly is his own worst enemy and his game day decisions are the main reason I want a coaching change. I am tired of losing not because the other team was the better team but because of sideline decisions.
 
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recruiting is not good enough to be one of the Nations 10 best teams. That is different than being in the Top 10, which is often distorted by schedule advantages and disadvantages.

And, the needle is not pointing 'up'. Defensive recruiting continues to slide to where ND is a team in the 11-20 competition.

But 2-3 elite defensive commits along the DL could change that.
 
recruiting is not good enough to be one of the Nations 10 best teams. That is different than being in the Top 10, which is often distorted by schedule advantages and disadvantages.

And, the needle is not pointing 'up'. Defensive recruiting continues to slide to where ND is a team in the 11-20 competition.

But 2-3 elite defensive commits along the DL could change that.

This is a fare assessment of the situation. ND is on the cusp of recruiting with the elite, but they are a notch below, and a notch-and-a-half on defense. With that, it doesn't stop there. The players have to be in a sound scheme and they have to be in South Bend long enough to get the most out of their development. Obviously, guys who leave early for the draft or graduate are the exception, but a lot of ND's issues have been attrition of experienced players, forcing freshman and first year players into prominent roles, rather than than support roles and developmental roles, like they are at other programs. Only a team like Alabama or Ohio State can recruit well enough to face major, unexpected attrition and expect the same results with younger players. Just ask Michigan State, who lost 2/3 of their defensive line 2-deep to factors outside of graduation or early departure for the draft. They're struggling because of it.

Ask yourself... Would ND would be 2-5 (hard to answer without factoring in VanGorder) if ND's reruiting had been consistent and they had retained players like others programs do, and their starting group this year looked like this.

QB: Deshone Kizer
RB: Tarean Folston
WR(X): Chris Brown
WR(W): Corey Robinson
Slot: Torii Hunter Jr
TE: Alize Jones
LT: Mike McGlinchey
LG: Quenton Nelson
C: Sam Mustipher
RG: Steve Elmer
RT: Alex Bars

WDE: Romeo Okwara or Kolin Hill
DT: Eddie Vanderdoes
NG: Jarron Jones
SDE: Isaac Rochell
Will: TeVon Coney
Mike: Nyles Morgan
Sam: James Onwualu
CB: Nick Watkins or Devin Butler
FS: Max Redfield
SS: Mykelti Williams
CB: Cole Luke
NB: Shaun Crawford

Note: Jaylon Smith and Will Fuller left early for the draft, therefore, are exempt for this list.

Above is what the ND offense and defense should look like in 2016. That's what the coaches had in mind when they recruited the classes. ND would have a lot more experienced talent and talented depth. Every team has attrition, but that's just crazy. ND would be a lot older, developed and more talented if they hadn't had so many transfers and off field issues, forcing young guys to play before they should be.
 
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There is no excuse for 2-5. That had a lot to do with a shit DC and scheme and the errors since then, but all of those upper classmen missing from the program is a huge blow to depth and talent. Sure, it's football. Injuries happen. But you can't have injuries and a rash of dismissals and transfers and expect to be good year-in-year-out.
 
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There is no excuse for 2-5. That had a lot to do with a shit DC and scheme and the errors since then, but all of those upper classmen missing from the program is a huge blow to depth and talent. Sure, it's football. Injuries happen. But you can't have injuries and a rash of dismissals and transfers and expect to be good year-in-year-out.

I don't believe that we have played a team this year that has had more talent than us...except at HC.....
 
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There are always exceptions. I believe Louisville is better than Clemson. Louisville's recruiting is not top 25 AFAIK; but IMO the Cards are good enough to be in the playoff. Petrino may be kind of an untouchable for a program like ND (for all kinds of reasons), but the guy can obviously develop his talent.

So, it is not MANDATORY that you recruit in the top ten every year to develop an elite team. But it certainly helps.
 
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There is no excuse for 2-5. That had a lot to do with a shit DC and scheme and the errors since then, but all of those upper classmen missing from the program is a huge blow to depth and talent. Sure, it's football. Injuries happen. But you can't have injuries and a rash of dismissali s and transfers and expect to be good year-in-year-out.
the story is not 2-5......Its 2-5 against inferior talent....programs who should not win five games against Notre Dame. Five teams the Irish were favored to beat....five losses. That is not only inexcuseable...its inexplainable. It leaves one scratching their heads....WTF?
This program has taken an unexpected and undesirable turn.....its in deep, troubled waters.....
 
I don't believe that we have played a team this year that has had more talent than us...except at HC.....

Not disagreeing with you there. But that's thr point I making. The point is that Notre Dame recruits enough talent to beat those teams, but at point in their development is Notre Dame's talent vs their opponents? This isn't the youngest ND team since the early 1970's by choice. There was significant attrition from factors outside of early departure for the draft and exhaustion of eligibility.

EQ St. BROWN: should be backing up senior would be captain, Corey Robinson.

CJ Sanders: should be backing up senior slot receiver Torii Hunter Jr.

Chris Brown: should be a 5th year senior in South Bend, leading the group and auditioning for the NFL / CFL.

Alize Jones: should be starting in place of our fairly inept and underdeveloped tight ends.

Steve Elmer: would be a 4 year starter, in place of the obvious weakest link in the offensive line, Colin McGovern.

Romeo Okwara: should be dominating as a 5th year senior, who redshirted as a freshman and is enjoying his final campaign with his brother.

Eddie Vanderdoes: the senior would be starting in place of Jerry Tillery, making the sophomore works for reps.

Kolin Hill: should be a senior now, and ND's best push rusher, backing up Romeo Okwara at WDE and playing the opposite DE in pass rush situations, allowing Rochell to bump down inside to play along with Jay Hayes in a sub package to rush the passer.... Jhonathan Williams and Bo Wallace would be battling him as well.

Nick Watkins: upperclassmen corner, was supposed to replace Russell, after three years in the system.

Devin Butler: should have been the 3rd corner who would spell both Luke and Watkins, as well as allow Luke to play nickel now that Crawford is sidelined again with an injury.

Max Redfield: the former 5 star senior was being counted on for a big senior season, in which Notre Dame didn't have to use a true freshman at one of the 3 most crucial positions in a 4-3 defense. Studstill should be learning under Max, giving him a blow for a series each half, instead of playing 60+ snaps a game as a 19 year old.

Mykelti Williams: would have slid into the SS position vacated by graduation and allowed Drue Tranquil (coming off two ACL's) to play as a nickel linebacker (transitionin) towards a full time linebacker... if Williams couldn't do it, Prentice Mckinney would have been the guy, had he not bailed at the last second.

It's easy for us to scream and should that ND should be better. And no doubt they should. Their scheme has not been good enough on either side of that ball, and they've asked a lot of young, young kids to do much more than they should be at this point... "Old Teams" win a lot of games. That's not really a disputable fact.

With that in mind, as they transition towards as 3-4 defense that fits their personnell, I look forward to 2018 and say "if they can just stop the attrition, look at this friggen defense".

DE: Jay Hayes (5th)
2. Khalid Kareem (JR)

NG: Micah Dew-Treadway (SR)
2. Darnell Ewell (SOPH)

DE: Jerry Tillery (SR)
2. Jonathan Bonner (5th)

OLB (Rush): Daelin Hayes (JR)
2. Julian (Okwara) (JR)

ILB: Te'Von Coney (SR)
2. Josh Barajas (SR)

ILB: Asmar Bilal (SR)
2. Jamir Jones (JR)

OLB (drop): Drue Tranquill (5th)
2. Pete Werner (SOPH)

CB: Nick Watkins (5th)
2. Troy Pride (JR)

FS: Devin Studstill (JR)
2. Jalen Elliot (JR)

SS: Chase Claypool (JR)- my opinion.
2. Saiid Adebo (SOPH)

CB: Donte Vaughn (JR)
2. Thomas Graham (SOPH)

NB: Shaun Crawford (SR)
2. Julian Love (JR)

That's what a damn good 3-4 defense, with 4 star talent across the board looks like. Year two of what would hopefully be a good system, under a competent coordinator. Most importantly, 19 of them would upper classmen, in their 3rd, 4th or 5th years in the program.
 
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Not disagreeing with you there. But that's thr point I making. The point is that Notre Dame recruits enough talent to beat those teams, but at point in their development is Notre Dame's talent vs their opponents? This isn't the youngest ND team since the early 1970's by choice. There was significant attrition from factors outside of early departure for the draft and exhaustion of eligibility.

EQ St. BROWN: should be backing up senior would be captain, Corey Robinson.

CJ Sanders: should be backing up senior slot receiver Torii Hunter Jr.

Chris Brown: should be a 5th year senior in South Bend, leading the group and auditioning for the NFL / CFL.

Alize Jones: should be starting in place of our fairly inept and underdeveloped tight ends.

Steve Elmer: would be a 4 year starter, in place of the obvious weakest link in the offensive line, Colin McGovern.

Romeo Okwara: should be dominating as a 5th year senior, who redshirted as a freshman and is enjoying his final campaign with his brother.

Eddie Vanderdoes: the senior would be starting in place of Jerry Tillery, making the sophomore works for reps.

Kolin Hill: should be a senior now, and ND's best push rusher, backing up Romeo Okwara at WDE and playing the opposite DE in pass rush situations, allowing Rochell to bump down inside to play along with Jay Hayes in a sub package to rush the passer.... Jhonathan Williams and Bo Wallace would be battling him as well.

Nick Watkins: upperclassmen corner, was supposed to replace Russell, after three years in the system.

Devin Butler: should have been the 3rd corner who would spell both Luke and Watkins, as well as allow Luke to play nickel now that Crawford is sidelined again with an injury.

Max Redfield: the former 5 star senior was being counted on for a big senior season, in which Notre Dame didn't have to use a true freshman at one of the 3 most crucial positions in a 4-3 defense. Studstill should be learning under Max, giving him a blow for a series each half, instead of playing 60+ snaps a game as a 19 year old.

Mykelti Williams: would have slid into the SS position vacated by graduation and allowed Drue Tranquil (coming off two ACL's) to play as a nickel linebacker (transitionin) towards a full time linebacker... if Williams couldn't do it, Prentice Mckinney would have been the guy, had he not bailed at the last second.

It's easy for us to scream and should that ND should be better. And no doubt they should. Their scheme has not been good enough on either side of that ball, and they've asked a lot of young, young kids to do much more than they should be at this point... "Old Teams" win a lot of games. That's not really a disputable fact.

With that in mind, as they transition towards as 3-4 defense that fits their personnell, I look forward to 2018 and say "if they can just stop the attrition, look at this friggen defense".

DE: Jay Hayes (5th)
2. Khalid Kareem (JR)

NG: Micah Dew-Treadway (SR)
2. Darnell Ewell (SOPH)

DE: Jerry Tillery (SR)
2. Jonathan Bonner (5th)

OLB (Rush): Daelin Hayes (JR)
2. Julian (Okwara) (JR)

ILB: Te'Von Coney (SR)
2. Josh Barajas (SR)

ILB: Asmar Bilal (SR)
2. Jamir Jones (JR)

OLB (drop): Drue Tranquill (5th)
2. Pete Werner (SOPH)

CB: Nick Watkins (5th)
2. Troy Pride (JR)

FS: Devin Studstill (JR)
2. Jalen Elliot (JR)

SS: Chase Claypool (JR)- my opinion.
2. Saiid Adebo (SOPH)

CB: Donte Vaughn (JR)
2. Thomas Graham (SOPH)

NB: Shaun Crawford (SR)
2. Julian Love (JR)

That's what a damn good 3-4 defense, with 4 star talent across the board looks like. Year two of what would hopefully be a good system, under a competent coordinator. Most importantly, 19 of them would upper classmen, in their 3rd, 4th or 5th years in the program.
From TOS:
"According to a formula Phil devised, which is best left to your translation after clicking the link, ND came into this season one of the most inexperienced teams in college football. ND was the 121st most experienced, by Steele's formula.

But they were not the MOST inexperienced. That distinction went to... Ohio State.

Well, that's curious. Are any other good teams inexperienced?

Stanford was 122nd. Michigan State was 117th. Alabama was 116th. Texas A&M 114th. Houston 112th. Wisconsin 105th. Clemson 101st. Baylor's 93rd. Utah's 91st. Nebraska is 60th. Michigan is 61st.

Among the current top 10, only Louisville (14th) and Washington (42nd) are among the top 50 in Steele's experience formula.

Does that lead anyone to any conclusions about the value of experience in this game? What about Kelly's experience argument? "
https://www.philsteele.com/Blogs/2016/JUNE16/DBJune28.html
 
No difference makers in this 2017 recruiting class ? Also how many times do we hear that this or that recruit being a diamond in the rough ?we are always hoping . But I do believe with our recruiting ,we should be a 10-20 team
 
the story is not 2-5......Its 2-5 against inferior talent....programs who should not win five games against Notre Dame. Five teams the Irish were favored to beat....five losses. That is not only inexcuseable...its inexplainable. It leaves one scratching their heads....WTF?
This program has taken an unexpected and undesirable turn.....its in deep, troubled waters.....

You have to understand that unless you have a constant flow of 5 star freaks available to you, the recipe for winning at a high level, involves experienced, developed, "old" players. The difference between a high 3 star player who commits to a program like Stanford or Michigan State and a middle tier 4 star player that commits to Notre Dame, is marginal. It simply means that the kids committing to ND has a little higher upside. Now you tell me would you rather be playing a former high 3 star kid, who is a senior or a 5th year senior, at the end of his development, who knows the scheme inside out and who is 22 years old (with 4 full years in a college weight room) or a would you rather start a 4 star kid, who is 19 years old, has 0-1 years in the system and in the weight room and is at the beginning of his development.

This is the missing link. Not only did Notre Dame lose the following players on their defense to the NFL draft or graduation...

DT: Sheldon Day
DE: Romeo Okwara
LB: Jaylon Smith
LB: Joe Schmidt
CB: Kei Russell
SS: Elijah Shumate
SS: Matthias Farley

They also lost many of their replacementalent to attrition or injury...

WDE: Kolin Hill- junior
WDE: Jhonathan Williams- junior
WDE: Bo Wallace- sophomore
WDE: Doug Randolph- senior
SDE: Grant Blankenship- junior
DT: Eddie Vanderdoes- senior
LB: Michael Deeb- senior
CB: Devin Butler- senior
CB: Nick Watkins (injury)- junior
CB: Shaun Crawford (injury)- sophomore
CB: Rashad Kinlaw- senior
FS: Max Redfield- senior
FS: Prentice Mckinney- sophomore
SS: Mykelti Williams- sophomore

Look at the devastation to 3 straight defensive classes, all basically hitting the same key positions. Basically every safety, corner and pass rushing DE ND recruited over a 3 year period, are gone. No longer with the program.

I don't care who you are. You can't graduate 7 starters and lose 14 would be replacements and expect to be any good... ND's talent on defense is not the problem. The problem is that they lost 21 key, or potentially key players in 24 months... or to put it into perspective, MORE THAN HALF the defensI've players ND recruited over those 3 years.
 
From TOS:
"According to a formula Phil devised, which is best left to your translation after clicking the link, ND came into this season one of the most inexperienced teams in college football. ND was the 121st most experienced, by Steele's formula.

But they were not the MOST inexperienced. That distinction went to... Ohio State.

Well, that's curious. Are any other good teams inexperienced?

Stanford was 122nd. Michigan State was 117th. Alabama was 116th. Texas A&M 114th. Houston 112th. Wisconsin 105th. Clemson 101st. Baylor's 93rd. Utah's 91st. Nebraska is 60th. Michigan is 61st.

Among the current top 10, only Louisville (14th) and Washington (42nd) are among the top 50 in Steele's experience formula.

Does that lead anyone to any conclusions about the value of experience in this game? What about Kelly's experience argument? "
https://www.philsteele.com/Blogs/2016/JUNE16/DBJune28.html

First of all, I already stated that Alabama and Ohio State are relatively exempt from the youth and inexperience argument because they recruit at such a high level. The same is true of Clemson... You can play 19 year Olds successfully, when they're all high 4 and 5 star kids those kids are college ready freaks... But look at the other teams you listed.... Michigan State and Stanford, who both suck nearly as much as ND, are some of the most inexperienced teams in the country. Wanna bet that when they're better, they're more experienced?

There are two formulas for winning at a high level in college football...

Elite, balanced recruiting + great coaching + development.

That is the formula of the football factories such as Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State and Florida State. Elites recruits spend less time in the program, but they are more talented players. You trade overall talent, for inexperience. This has proven to be the best method of winning, however, there FEW schools in the nation capable of keeping this up long term.... ND does not fit into this category in 2016 and beyond.

Good, balanced recruiting + good coaching + development + retention of players.

That is the formula of Michigan State, Oklahoma, Stanford, Michigan and Oregon. The schools with access to quality talent, but who will often fall short of elite talent at most positions. They will trade lesser talented players, for 4-5 years of said players in their systems. They're relying on age, development and experience to overcome talent... This is the category ND fits into in 2016 and beyond.

There is no question that the first recipe is ideal, but ND it's not sustainable. But we've already seen 3 teams using the 2nd recipe make it to the playoffs as well, proving it's a viable strategy. The key, however, is that you can't skip components of the recipe and hope for success. So when ND has 21 defensive players leave it's program in 24 months and there isn't (and will never be) 5 star talent across the board waiting to replace them, don't expect them to be any damn good.

With poor defensive coaching and bad player retention, ND is missing 2 of the 4 ingredients I the recipe that works for them... You're bad if you're missing one (ask Stanford and Michigan State this year) if you're missing two or more, this can be the result.

Just look at ND's obvious improvement over the past 3 weeks since VanGorder was fired. What happened? By Brian Kelly, Mike Elston and Greg Hudson taking control of the defense, aided by a good longtime DC in Analyst Bob Elliot up in the box, ND added the "good coaching" component back into the recipe. Unfortunately, there is nothing they can do in season about the 21 missing bodies the've racked up over the past 24 months. That needs to be fixed in recruiting. Still one ingredient missing. But look at Michigan. They are missing some experience as well, but because they have the other 3 factors in the recipe and their experience is still right middle of the pack, they field a quality defense because of it.
 
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First of all, I already stated that Alabama and Ohio State are relatively exempt from the youth and inexperience argument because they recruit at such a high level. The same is true of Clemson... You can play 19 year Olds successfully, when they're all high 4 and 5 star kids those kids are college ready freaks... But look at the other teams you listed.... Michigan State and Stanford, who both suck nearly as much as ND, are some of the most inexperienced teams in the country. Wanna bet that when they're better, they're more experienced?

There are two formulas for winning at a high level in college football...

Elite, balanced recruiting + great coaching + development.

That is the formula of the football factories such as Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State and Florida State. Elites recruits spend less time in the program, but they are more talented players. You trade overall talent, for inexperience. This has proven to be the best method of winning, however, there FEW schools in the nation capable of keeping this up long term.... ND does not fit into this category in 2016 and beyond.

Good, balanced recruiting + good coaching + development + retention of players.

That is the formula of Michigan State, Oklahoma, Stanford, Michigan and Oregon. The schools with access to quality talent, but who will often fall short of elite talent at most positions. They will trade lesser talented players, for 4-5 years of said players in their systems. They're relying on age, development and experience to overcome talent... This is the category ND fits into in 2016 and beyond.

There is no question that the first recipe is ideal, but ND it's not sustainable. But we've already seen 3 teams using the 2nd recipe make it to the playoffs as well, proving it's a viable strategy. The key, however, is that you can't skip components of the recipe and hope for success. So when ND has 21 defensive players leave it's program in 24 months and there isn't (and will never be) 5 star talent across the board waiting to replace them, don't expect them to be any damn good.

With poor defensive coaching and bad player retention, ND is missing 2 of the 4 ingredients I the recipe that works for them... You're bad if you're missing one (ask Stanford and Michigan State this year) if you're missing two or more, this can be the result.

Just look at ND's obvious improvement over the past 3 weeks since VanGorder was fired. What happened? By Brian Kelly, Mike Elston and Greg Hudson taking control of the defense, aided by a good longtime DC in Analyst Bob Elliot up in the box, ND added the "good coaching" component back into the recipe. Unfortunately, there is nothing they can do in season about the 21 missing bodies the've racked up over the past 24 months. That needs to be fixed in recruiting. Still one ingredient missing. But look at Michigan. They are missing some experience as well, but because they have the other 3 factors in the recipe and their experience is still right middle of the pack, they field a quality defense because of it.

No level of player experience can overcome the idiocy and piss poor coaching of Porky. He is an imbecile. He's so stupid he doesn't know when to go for 2 or 1. He sends 2 players on the field with the same number. He starts a season with 12 men on the field. He burns timeouts like a pyro. He's an ego-maniacal, talent-less, bullying, "vulgarian"..... I could go on as that is just scratching the surface....

Look at the top 10 finishes, recruiting rankings and major bowl wins for ND, Stanford and msu over his tenure. Mr Potato Head has managed to make every team on our schedule believe that they can beat us and they can. Right now folks are in fear of Navy, Army.... NC State mocks us....

There is no soft landing with the excuse making. It's pathetic.
 
No level of player experience can overcome the idiocy and piss poor coaching of Porky. He is an imbecile. He's so stupid he doesn't know when to go for 2 or 1. He sends 2 players on the field with the same number. He starts a season with 12 men on the field. He burns timeouts like a pyro. He's an ego-maniacal, talent-less, bullying, "vulgarian"..... I could go on as that is just scratching the surface....

Look at the top 10 finishes, recruiting rankings and major bowl wins for ND, Stanford and msu over his tenure. Mr Potato Head has managed to make every team on our schedule believe that they can beat us and they can. Right now folks are in fear of Navy, Army.... NC State mocks us....

There is no soft landing with the excuse making. It's pathetic.

you truly are psychotic.

Kelly is not a great coach but his record shows he is a good coach. Not good enough for what is needed here but still a good coach. Your mental problem with admitting that makes you a pathetic laughing stock.
 
you truly are psychotic.

Kelly is not a great coach but his record shows he is a good coach. Not good enough for what is needed here but still a good coach. Your mental problem with admitting that makes you a pathetic laughing stock.
Well, let's be clear, Porky has been called out repeatedly by the national media and other sources for his vulgar and psychotic on field behavior.
Laughingstock indeed.....
 
No level of player experience can overcome the idiocy and piss poor coaching of Porky. He is an imbecile. He's so stupid he doesn't know when to go for 2 or 1. He sends 2 players on the field with the same number. He starts a season with 12 men on the field. He burns timeouts like a pyro. He's an ego-maniacal, talent-less, bullying, "vulgarian"..... I could go on as that is just scratching the surface....

Look at the top 10 finishes, recruiting rankings and major bowl wins for ND, Stanford and msu over his tenure. Mr Potato Head has managed to make every team on our schedule believe that they can beat us and they can. Right now folks are in fear of Navy, Army.... NC State mocks us....

There is no soft landing with the excuse making. It's pathetic.

Again, you're missing the point. The factors I'm discussing would affect the program regardless of who the HC is. Think I'm wrong? Michigan State and Stanford are just about as bad as ND this year because of their combination of inexperience and inability to reload with elite recruits.... Dantonio and Shaw didn't forget how to coach all-of-a-sudden. Neither has a great (or experienced) QB, nor do they have a plethora of experienced talent supporting them.

Brian Kelly isn't Nick Saban. Hell, he might not even be Mark Dantonio (even know he has a 3-2 records against him). But exaggerating how bad he is. It's easy for you to take snapshots of the bad and conveniently leave out the good at the same time.

Just a small snapshot on the other side of the argument...

Notre Dame was averaging about 40 ppg when Brian Kelly was focused on the offense. Since moving primarily to the defensive side of the ball to help the newly shuffled staff get going, the defense has been much improved and the offense has floundered in his absence. Again, am I playing that up a little too much? Yep. But so are you on the other side of things.

Brian Kelly's biggest mistake was hiring Brian VanGorder (something Kelly has to deal with)... Who knows how much better ND would have been during VanGorder's tenure. ND had the personnel last year to be a playoff team. The defense was miserable. Any half ass DC would have done a better job.

I wonder what people would have thought of Brian Kelly had he made a better hire and ND got into the playoffs last year? Would people really be complaining about a trip to the national title game in 2012 and run to the playoffs in 2015?
 
Well, let's be clear, Porky has been called out repeatedly by the national media and other sources for his vulgar and psychotic on field behavior.
Laughingstock indeed.....

Brian Kelly is only now being called out for his behaviour because ND is losing and it's easy for the maggots in the media to attack a coach who isn't having success.

Nick Saban goes on just as bad or tirades and treats the media like they are Cambodian alley rats, but nobody says shit about his demeanour or attitude.

Why? Because America is an elitist society to the core. Successful people are not held to a standard. They set the standard. Nobody is saying anything to Saban because he's winning. If he was losing, people would stop idolizing him and the media pundits would be all over him for his brash, rude, defiant, asshole'ish behaviour.

Like I said before. It's politics. Republicans chose a complete Asshole for representative in Donald Trump. He's always made ridiculous claims. He's been racist from day one. He's treated people like a bag of shit his entire life. Nobody said anything as he was surging towards the presidency because y'all love a "winner" regardless of his character.... But when he starts losing. When there are dents in the armor, people start coming out in droves to assassinate somebody because they've went from strong and untouchable, to weak and on the verge of collapse.

Stop combining apples and oranges... Brian Kelly's temper and his ability to coach are two separate things. One has a bearing on football, the other is a complete reach. Lou Holtz could be a crusty, cocky, edgy, ass as well, but he can also be a fine gentlman and regardless, he was a fine coach. Some of the best coaches are complete pricks (Belichek) and some of them are the nicest guys in the world (Dungy). Personality and ability are two different things. Brian Kelly's demanour and even his temper, don't make him a better or worse coach.

So if you're going to discuss COACHING, talk COACHING. If you're going to talk CHARACTER, talk Character... Stop this ludicrous crusade against Kelly's ability to coach, backed by your opinion of his character.
 
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Brian Kelly is only now being called out for his behaviour because ND is losing and it's easy for the maggots in the media to attack a coach who isn't having success.

Nick Saban goes on just as bad or tirades and treats the media like they are Cambodian alley rats, but nobody says shit about his demeanour or attitude.

Why? Because America is an elitist society to the core. Successful people are not held to a standard. They set the standard. Nobody is saying anything to Saban because he's winning. If he was losing, people would stop idolizing him and the media pundits would be all over him for his brash, rude, defiant, asshole'ish behaviour.

Like I said before. It's politics. Republicans chose a complete Asshole for representative in Donald Trump. He's always made ridiculous claims. He's been racist from day one. He's treated people like a bag of shit his entire life. Nobody said anything as he was surging towards the presidency because y'all love a "winner" regardless of his character.... But when he starts losing. When there are dents in the armor, people start coming out in droves to assassinate somebody because they've went from strong and untouchable, to weak and on the verge of collapse.

Stop combining apples and oranges... Brian Kelly's temper and his ability to coach are two separate things. One has a bearing on football, the other is a complete reach. Lou Holtz could be a crusty, cocky, edgy, ass as well, but he can also be a fine gentlman and regardless, he was a fine coach. Some of the best coaches are complete pricks (Belichek) and some of them are the nicest guys in the world (Dungy). Personality and ability are two different things. Brian Kelly's demanour and even his temper, don't make him a better or worse coach.

So if you're going to discuss COACHING, talk COACHING. If you're going to talk CHARACTER, talk Character... Stop this ludicrous crusade against Kelly's ability to coach, backed by your opinion of his character.

IIO I like your football commentary. Here is what I would say i won't criticize your rude anti american commentary or your rude elitist view that americans are arrogant or your ignorant view of Donald Trump because you are obviously fed leftist BS from the media and you cannot make up your own mind. and I feel sorry for people like that. That said i won't criticize your Leftist POS president or your arrogant Canadian brethren. Stick to football!
 
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Brian Kelly is only now being called out for his behaviour because ND is losing and it's easy for the maggots in the media to attack a coach who isn't having success.

Nick Saban goes on just as bad or tirades and treats the media like they are Cambodian alley rats, but nobody says shit about his demeanour or attitude.

Why? Because America is an elitist society to the core. Successful people are not held to a standard. They set the standard. Nobody is saying anything to Saban because he's winning. If he was losing, people would stop idolizing him and the media pundits would be all over him for his brash, rude, defiant, asshole'ish behaviour.

Like I said before. It's politics. Republicans chose a complete Asshole for representative in Donald Trump. He's always made ridiculous claims. He's been racist from day one. He's treated people like a bag of shit his entire life. Nobody said anything as he was surging towards the presidency because y'all love a "winner" regardless of his character.... But when he starts losing. When there are dents in the armor, people start coming out in droves to assassinate somebody because they've went from strong and untouchable, to weak and on the verge of collapse.

Stop combining apples and oranges... Brian Kelly's temper and his ability to coach are two separate things. One has a bearing on football, the other is a complete reach. Lou Holtz could be a crusty, cocky, edgy, ass as well, but he can also be a fine gentlman and regardless, he was a fine coach. Some of the best coaches are complete pricks (Belichek) and some of them are the nicest guys in the world (Dungy). Personality and ability are two different things. Brian Kelly's demanour and even his temper, don't make him a better or worse coach.

So if you're going to discuss COACHING, talk COACHING. If you're going to talk CHARACTER, talk Character... Stop this ludicrous crusade against Kelly's ability to coach, backed by your opinion of his character.

My opinion on his character is spot on. He's a low rent vulgar incompetent tool bag. His attention to detail is non existent. Our defense stinks, our special teams stink, our offense stinks, our red zone offense stinks...Please provide data points that show otherwise. Not only does Porky's coaching stink, his on field persona is a vulgar, bullying, ineffective, disgrace.....
Do yourself a favor and stop comparing him to Saban. It's ridiculous.
PS if you get the chance Mater Dei is playing St John Bosco tomorrow night . Keep your eye on MD So QB JT Daniels.... He calls his own plays....
#3 vs #4 in the country. (School has 2 Heisman's Huarte/Leinart)
https://www.google.com/search?q=hig...1.69i57j0l10.11035j0j4&sourceid=silk&ie=UTF-8
 
IIO I like your football commentary. Here is what I would say i won't criticize your rude anti american commentary or your rude elitist view that americans are arrogant or your ignorant view of Donald Trump because you are obviously fed leftist BS from the media and you cannot make up your own mind. and I feel sorry for people like that. That said i won't criticize your Leftist POS president or your arrogant Canadian brethren. Stick to football!
Do Canadians bow to the queen? Then there is Justin Beiber....
 
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My opinion on his character is spot on. He's a low rent vulgar incompetent tool bag. His attention to detail is non existent. Our defense stinks, our special teams stink, our offense stinks, our red zone offense stinks...Please provide data points that show otherwise. Not only does Porky's coaching stink, his on field persona is a vulgar, bullying, ineffective, disgrace.....
Do yourself a favor and stop comparing him to Saban. It's ridiculous.
PS if you get the chance Mater Dei is playing St John Bosco tomorrow night . Keep your eye on MD So QB JT Daniels.... He calls his own plays....
#3 vs #4 in the country. (School has 2 Heisman's Huarte/Leinart)
https://www.google.com/search?q=hig...1.69i57j0l10.11035j0j4&sourceid=silk&ie=UTF-8


You have been very consistent on Brian Kelly since the beginning
 
You have to understand that unless you have a constant flow of 5 star freaks available to you, the recipe for winning at a high level, involves experienced, developed, "old" players. The difference between a high 3 star player who commits to a program like Stanford or Michigan State and a middle tier 4 star player that commits to Notre Dame, is marginal. It simply means that the kids committing to ND has a little higher upside. Now you tell me would you rather be playing a former high 3 star kid, who is a senior or a 5th year senior, at the end of his development, who knows the scheme inside out and who is 22 years old (with 4 full years in a college weight room) or a would you rather start a 4 star kid, who is 19 years old, has 0-1 years in the system and in the weight room and is at the beginning of his development.

This is the missing link. Not only did Notre Dame lose the following players on their defense to the NFL draft or graduation...

DT: Sheldon Day
DE: Romeo Okwara
LB: Jaylon Smith
LB: Joe Schmidt
CB: Kei Russell
SS: Elijah Shumate
SS: Matthias Farley

They also lost many of their replacementalent to attrition or injury...

WDE: Kolin Hill- junior
WDE: Jhonathan Williams- junior
WDE: Bo Wallace- sophomore
WDE: Doug Randolph- senior
SDE: Grant Blankenship- junior
DT: Eddie Vanderdoes- senior
LB: Michael Deeb- senior
CB: Devin Butler- senior
CB: Nick Watkins (injury)- junior
CB: Shaun Crawford (injury)- sophomore
CB: Rashad Kinlaw- senior
FS: Max Redfield- senior
FS: Prentice Mckinney- sophomore
SS: Mykelti Williams- sophomore

Look at the devastation to 3 straight defensive classes, all basically hitting the same key positions. Basically every safety, corner and pass rushing DE ND recruited over a 3 year period, are gone. No longer with the program.

I don't care who you are. You can't graduate 7 starters and lose 14 would be replacements and expect to be any good... ND's talent on defense is not the problem. The problem is that they lost 21 key, or potentially key players in 24 months... or to put it into perspective, MORE THAN HALF the defensI've players ND recruited over those 3 years.

IIO, usuually agree w. you = but this is hogwash. The bottom line is that ND has been outcoached in all 5 losses by teams that had less recruited talent on their rosters than ND. All 5 losses where Las Vegas had ND favored.

A Head Coach who is throwing pass after pass in a Monsoom. A head coach is trring to establish the run vs, Stanford who was missing their 2 starting corners and who had been lit up through the air in their two previous losses.

BK might me the worse game manager coach in all of College Football.
 
IIO I like your football commentary. Here is what I would say i won't criticize your rude anti american commentary or your rude elitist view that americans are arrogant or your ignorant view of Donald Trump because you are obviously fed leftist BS from the media and you cannot make up your own mind. and I feel sorry for people like that. That said i won't criticize your Leftist POS president or your arrogant Canadian brethren. Stick to football!

Zona,

I'm not rude to Americans. That's a hypersensitive statement. I've lived in both countries and have a variety of friends, that live on both sides of the 49th, and that come from both left and right extremes of the political spectrum, as well as the middle. Both of my degrees are in political science and my thesis (don't want to waste your time on the particulars, email me if you're interested) centred on comparative politics between USA and Canada. I thoroughly enjoy the topic and can generally discuss it without emotion, as I'm genuinely interested in the great aspects of both nations, as well as each of our faults. Am I undoubtedly biased because of of my upbringing? Of course. But no more so than you or anybody else would be by their own? So does that mean no discussion can be had, or attempt be made because we come from two different schools of thought? Personally I think that's silly. The exchange of ideas is what keeps us learning and improving. Doesn't mean you have to like them, or adopt them, but to ignore that there are things that others may do better, is to be intentionally ignorant. I would venture to say that intentional ignorance is among the least desirable characteristics that a person can possess (but that's just my opinion on the matter).

With that said, I actually sit pretty far on the "right" relative to my political views. There is a reason why I chose Notre Dame as my destination for exchange while in University. I admittedly did my undergrad at a relatively liberal university, but I've always Notre Dame's conservative ways. I was raised in a military family. Very tough, very conservative. The grandson of a highly conservative Scottish World War II spitfire pilot, and the nephew of an uncle who flew helicopters through the streets of Belfast during the IRA crisis. Nephew to an uncle who is a dual U.S. / Canadian citizen, living in Texas, who served (by choice) in the U.S. military, rather than the Canadian military because he had better opportunity in his field of choice.

For the record, I did not vote for our Prime Minister, as I disagree with him on a number of political ideas. I disagree with many of his primary concerns and I cringe at what Canadians may pay in taxes because of his regime and the liberal desire to spend. Canadians already pay a crazy amount of taxes, not looking forward to more. With that said, I would not classify Justin Trudeau (who I actually know, just a little, through a close friend who was the President of Liberal McGill when Trudeau was just starting to gain support for a run towards the PM's office) as an elitist. Maybe in his appearance, or background, but the guy is likely to fight more Canadian rights, liberties and young people's futures than a lot of PM's before him. He's also going to take huge steps towards fixing Canada's problems with our Native People and their treatment, which I am embarrassed to say has been the subject of some of the worst racism in North America over the past 300+ years. The Native People have a lot of problems they need to work on within their own tribes, but my God do we need some federal intervention to help them get started. If I have to pay a little bit more in taxes for that to happen, I'm all for it. If you think that makes me a leftist. Oh well. I think it makes me a humanist. I don't value a few dollars on my pay cheque over the lives of some children that barely had a chance...

Again, I'm a staunch supporter of Canada's conservative party. I know that's still fairly left on the American scale, but that's what we have here. I thought Harper did a brilliant job of navigating Canada through the housing crash in the United States (obviously our economies are fairly tied) and I liked his support for the War in Afghanistan, as well as his refusal to send Canadians to Iraq. America is our closest ally and friend. I appreciated that he your backs when we as Canadians felt the cause was just and I was equally impressed by his ability to restrain himself from sending more than aid (and special forces) in the Iraq War, a conflict we did not support. I fundamentally admired his steady "boring" leadership style. I felt his government was slow moving at times, but they were calculated and, overall, navigated us through some tough times, while keeping important relationships intact and growing others... Now, I wish his government had not spent billions of dollars replacing our CF-18's, with your inferior (relative to competition and cost) F-35's, so I'm glad that Trudeau cancelled that order. If you were selling us F-22's, sure!... But obviously, and for understandable reasons, you're not, so I'd much rather buy somewhere else, for cheaper. Outside of that, I was fairly happy with Harper.

As for your guy, Trump, who seems to be disassociating himself with the political party and the electorate that the fostered and legitimized his own candidacy, in favour of running as a quasi-independent, I'm curious about your thoughts on that? Do you still feel that he'll represent the wishes and the agenda of the people electorate and the delegates that won him the status Republican nominee? I find it troubling that you feel that the leftist media (which I agree is a fare statement) has had a major influence on my feelings towards Donald Trump the person. Do I know him personally? Nope. Do I know him any less than lets say CGVR knows Brian Kelly personally? Nope. Am I believing all of these people suddenly coming out of the wood work making scandalous claims about him. Not particularly. Do I think he's obviously a shrewd business man who has employed thousands of Americans and had a ton of success in his field? Of course. Is the work that he's done worth respecting? Of course. Especially if you are motivated by money. But does that change the fact that I think he has about as much compassion for people as Vlad Putin? No. Of course not. Are you going to argue that Trump isn't elitist? (as if me using the term elitist is an insult?). Are you going to argue that the media hype surrounding the allegations made against him are not swaying some of the moderate Republican voters against him... The same way Brian Kelly's actions and demeanour entice people to dislike him (regardless of what he does on the field), I think it's fare to say that people (how many, I do not know) have turned on Trump because they now think that his moral character is a concern, regardless of his potential leadership skills or business acumen... That was my point. Saban can act like that, because he's a winner and Americans forgive winners, do they not? Brian Kelly has not been as successful, so the media will crucify him for his behaviour, as if yelling at a kid is the reason he is losing, rather than because of some of the poor teaching, development and questionable scheming that has been a focal point during his tenure.
 
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As for the idea that Canadians are arrogant. I'm sure a lot of us (maybe me included) are. I think we're simply proud people and so are many Americans. I've always felt the idea that Canadians are "nice" is completely overrated. We have more than our fare share of assholes too. Just because is hasn't yet manifested itself in a spree of mass shootings, or extreme racial divide, it doesn't mean that can't be jerks or that we don't have a plethora of our own skeletons and concerns.

I think a lot times when you have two proud peoples (Americans and Canadians), that do things differently in many ways, we fight the desire to feel that "their" way is imposing on "our" way and that it makes them arrogant because of it. That doesn't mean either of us (you or I) should surrender our values simply because somebody disagrees with us, but I, for one, have travelled to well over 30 (could be 40 , I would have to count) countries around the world, and throughout my travels, I've found dozens of things that I think people do better than Canadians and Americans. Doesn't mean I want to trade places with them, but I can respect the fact that there are good ideas, progressive ideas, conservatively, amazing ideas and completely disastrous ideas that come from everywhere, at home and abroad.

My experience has been that I have been well received nearly everywhere I have been, travelling under my Canadian passport, but that only gives you about two seconds of credibility or expectation. Whether you keep it, or not, depends on your actions and what happens when you open your mouth. I'm sure the vast majority of Americans have had the same experience.

I'm not at all personally offended that you think our PM is a POS. I do think that he is representative of a large population of young Canadians (the ones who voted him into office) and I do think he has some fresh ideas, but personally, I'd rather a more conservative (especially fiscally) approach from our Feds and as a military guy I wish Canada would spend about 1.3-1.5% of our GDP on military spending, up from the 1% we spend now and the UN recommendation of 2% that I doubt we'll ever hit in peacetime (because of the expenses of other major social programs). I am curious, however, as to the reasons why you think Trudeau is a "POS"? Not because I have any desire to defend him, but because in my two (maybe 3?) brief interactions with him, I've had a hard time finding him anything but cordial and quick assert himself as "just another guy" in the room.
 
IIO, usuually agree w. you = but this is hogwash. The bottom line is that ND has been outcoached in all 5 losses by teams that had less recruited talent on their rosters than ND. All 5 losses where Las Vegas had ND favored.

A Head Coach who is throwing pass after pass in a Monsoom. A head coach is trring to establish the run vs, Stanford who was missing their 2 starting corners and who had been lit up through the air in their two previous losses.

BK might me the worse game manager coach in all of College Football.

Not defending BK's in game decisions. Never have. I've been highly critical of many of them since he arrived at ND. In fact, I've posted numerous times that I feel like Brian Kelly is a great politician and organizer and is a bit of a visionary. That's why I feel like the ND football program OFF THE FIELD has come such as long way under his watch. He and Swarbrick have really propelled ND into the future and have worked to pull ND "out of the past" relative to what modern football programs have at their disposal. At the same time, I don't think he's the best "on field" coach. I think that where he excels in big picture ideas for the team, he fails in some of the smaller details of winning football. I also think that he is fairly out-of-touch (particularly on offense) with the style of football that Midwestern programs (and their recruiting bases) have been winning with.

Can you still run a spread offense and run the ball north-south, with power? Tune into an Ohio State game. Tune into an Oregon game. Does a spread offense have to put the weight of the world on the quarterback? Did you watch Baylor carve people up on the ground, while keeping their reads simple and manageable through the air, under Briles?

I'm not making excuses for Brian Kelly. I simply analyse the state of the program from the perspective of someone who has helped build one. And my observation is that when you are a program no longer capable of landing 10 top 100 players every year, your recipe for winning must include, veteran, developed players, whose advantage on a team that recruits better than you (if all things are equal in coaching), is age, strength, wisdom and maturity. Notre Dame isn't 2-5 simply because Brian Kelly is a bad coach. Or else they would have been 2-5 under his watch previously. Yet they've won no fewer than what, 8 games since he's been in South Bend?..

Look, he made a bad hire with BVG at DC. That's on Kelly and it may prove to be his undoing... But that wasn't the only factor. Extreme attrition (which also falls on his shoulders by the way) has gutted Notre Dame of much of the experienced talent that it has long relied on to win... Much like in 2012, when that team was loaded with juniors and seniors, or last year, when they were in playoff conversation up until the last second, of the last Saturday on the schedule... Is Brian Kelly good enough to win a national championship at ND? I have serious doubts about that. But could have this been a 9-3 or 10-2 type of season had Notre Dame not faced such "un-forced" attrition on defense and in their receiving corps? I believe so... Hell, I would have bet money on it had they cut that attrition in half and had more relevant, college friendly, coach running the defense.
 
First of all, I already stated that Alabama and Ohio State are relatively exempt from the youth and inexperience argument because they recruit at such a high level. The same is true of Clemson... You can play 19 year Olds successfully, when they're all high 4 and 5 star kids those kids are college ready freaks... But look at the other teams you listed.... Michigan State and Stanford, who both suck nearly as much as ND, are some of the most inexperienced teams in the country. Wanna bet that when they're better, they're more experienced?

There are two formulas for winning at a high level in college football...

Elite, balanced recruiting + great coaching + development.

That is the formula of the football factories such as Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State and Florida State. Elites recruits spend less time in the program, but they are more talented players. You trade overall talent, for inexperience. This has proven to be the best method of winning, however, there FEW schools in the nation capable of keeping this up long term.... ND does not fit into this category in 2016 and beyond.

Good, balanced recruiting + good coaching + development + retention of players.

That is the formula of Michigan State, Oklahoma, Stanford, Michigan and Oregon. The schools with access to quality talent, but who will often fall short of elite talent at most positions. They will trade lesser talented players, for 4-5 years of said players in their systems. They're relying on age, development and experience to overcome talent... This is the category ND fits into in 2016 and beyond.

There is no question that the first recipe is ideal, but ND it's not sustainable. But we've already seen 3 teams using the 2nd recipe make it to the playoffs as well, proving it's a viable strategy. The key, however, is that you can't skip components of the recipe and hope for success. So when ND has 21 defensive players leave it's program in 24 months and there isn't (and will never be) 5 star talent across the board waiting to replace them, don't expect them to be any damn good.

With poor defensive coaching and bad player retention, ND is missing 2 of the 4 ingredients I the recipe that works for them... You're bad if you're missing one (ask Stanford and Michigan State this year) if you're missing two or more, this can be the result.

Just look at ND's obvious improvement over the past 3 weeks since VanGorder was fired. What happened? By Brian Kelly, Mike Elston and Greg Hudson taking control of the defense, aided by a good longtime DC in Analyst Bob Elliot up in the box, ND added the "good coaching" component back into the recipe. Unfortunately, there is nothing they can do in season about the 21 missing bodies the've racked up over the past 24 months. That needs to be fixed in recruiting. Still one ingredient missing. But look at Michigan. They are missing some experience as well, but because they have the other 3 factors in the recipe and their experience is still right middle of the pack, they field a quality defense because of it.
would it be fair to take a closer look at the fourteen attritionites and ask whether there is also flaw in recruiting? In other words...is that a fluke or a flaw in recruiting?
 
It's not a lack of personnel. UM has yet to prove that. UM hasn't recruited as well as Ohio state. UM has gotten one 5* a year, the last two years. How many has Wisconsin? Did you watch those games?

You're going to be changing your tune once the 2017 class is announced. UM isn't close to being finished with this class.
 
Everyone thinks their own opinion is "spot on". That's why they have that opinion.[/QUOTE

Is he vulgar? Yes
(Porky's antics have been repeatedly so over the top that they have caused national media stirs. In addition, he operates under the glow of the Golden Dome. Others don't.... He's a disgrace.)
Is he a bully? Yes
Is he a crappy coach? Yes

Anything else?
 
Not defending BK's in game decisions. Never have. I've been highly critical of many of them since he arrived at ND. In fact, I've posted numerous times that I feel like Brian Kelly is a great politician and organizer and is a bit of a visionary. That's why I feel like the ND football program OFF THE FIELD has come such as long way under his watch. He and Swarbrick have really propelled ND into the future and have worked to pull ND "out of the past" relative to what modern football programs have at their disposal. At the same time, I don't think he's the best "on field" coach. I think that where he excels in big picture ideas for the team, he fails in some of the smaller details of winning football. I also think that he is fairly out-of-touch (particularly on offense) with the style of football that Midwestern programs (and their recruiting bases) have been winning with.

Can you still run a spread offense and run the ball north-south, with power? Tune into an Ohio State game. Tune into an Oregon game. Does a spread offense have to put the weight of the world on the quarterback? Did you watch Baylor carve people up on the ground, while keeping their reads simple and manageable through the air, under Briles?

I'm not making excuses for Brian Kelly. I simply analyse the state of the program from the perspective of someone who has helped build one. And my observation is that when you are a program no longer capable of landing 10 top 100 players every year, your recipe for winning must include, veteran, developed players, whose advantage on a team that recruits better than you (if all things are equal in coaching), is age, strength, wisdom and maturity. Notre Dame isn't 2-5 simply because Brian Kelly is a bad coach. Or else they would have been 2-5 under his watch previously. Yet they've won no fewer than what, 8 games since he's been in South Bend?..

Look, he made a bad hire with BVG at DC. That's on Kelly and it may prove to be his undoing... But that wasn't the only factor. Extreme attrition (which also falls on his shoulders by the way) has gutted Notre Dame of much of the experienced talent that it has long relied on to win... Much like in 2012, when that team was loaded with juniors and seniors, or last year, when they were in playoff conversation up until the last second, of the last Saturday on the schedule... Is Brian Kelly good enough to win a national championship at ND? I have serious doubts about that. But could have this been a 9-3 or 10-2 type of season had Notre Dame not faced such "un-forced" attrition on defense and in their receiving corps? I believe so... Hell, I would have bet money on it had they cut that attrition in half and had more relevant, college friendly, coach running the defense.

In all 7 seasons except for 2012 - BK lost games he should of won - games that he cost ND from Winning not his players. This season it has been worse than all other seasons.

A good coach may have one game every 2 years that they cost their team from a win, BK has them a minimum of 1 or 2 or more every season like noted except for that 2012 year.

FACT - his special teams are average to below average every season.
FACT - his play calling is very questionable at times
FACT - his in game decision making which has led to at least 1 -2 losses in all seasons is below average. (this season it has been 5 losses).
FACT - his offensive scheme is not good
FACT - he burns up timeouts early in the first and second half of almost all games he has coached at ND.
FACT - his defense and defensive tackling has been atrocious.

The good coaches have none of these problems or issues with their teams.

His roster regardless of your excuse making is still loaded and better than all 5 teams he lost too.
 
In all 7 seasons except for 2012 - BK lost games he should of won - games that he cost ND from Winning not his players. This season it has been worse than all other seasons.

A good coach may have one game every 2 years that they cost their team from a win, BK has them a minimum of 1 or 2 or more every season like noted except for that 2012 year.

FACT - his special teams are average to below average every season.
FACT - his play calling is very questionable at times
FACT - his in game decision making which has led to at least 1 -2 losses in all seasons is below average. (this season it has been 5 losses).
FACT - his offensive scheme is not good
FACT - he burns up timeouts early in the first and second half of almost all games he has coached at ND.
FACT - his defense and defensive tackling has been atrocious.

The good coaches have none of these problems or issues with their teams.

His roster regardless of your excuse making is still loaded and better than all 5 teams he lost too.

Pretty much EVERY coach "loses games he should have won". That includes Saban (Old Miss last year), Meyer (Sparty last year), Harbaugh (Sparty last year) etc.
 
would it be fair to take a closer look at the fourteen attritionites and ask whether there is also flaw in recruiting? In other words...is that a fluke or a flaw in recruiting?

Absolutely. Brian Kelly is 100% responsible for the type of kids he recruits and the vetting out process, throughout their recruitment. Which furthers my point that an ND Coach, now more than ever, needs to really be selective in the type of kids he brings to ND. Of course he needs to go after a few kids each class that are "edgy" and could go either way in the process of sticking it out, but ND needs full classes, balanced classes of ND kids, much like Stanford does. If that means ND takes a couple more 3 stars or low 4 stars that will stay in school and aren't going to leave if they aren't participating as freshman or sophomores, so be it. With the type of talent ND gets, under proper development and leadership (especially defensively) ND needs those Kapron Lewis-Moore, Matthias Farley, Tom Zbikowski, Kona Schwenke, Drue Tranquill types that will stick around, provide with quality senior leadership and toughness and may even give you a 5th year. That doesn't mean that you don't go after the top kids, it just means that if you miss on those kids, you need quality (in terms of talent AND CHARACTER) kids in your class to replace them.

Brian Kelly is the head coach. Of course retention ultimately falls on him. However, as someone who has been a recruiting coordinator in a program, it also falls on that individual to foster relationships with not only the top kids, but the next tier of kids that you will have to rely on to fill out a lot of your class at ND. How selective you are in that process and how much work you put into vetting out which kids will stay long term and which will leave as soon as they face adversity, I would argue, at Notre Dame, is just as important as how many 5 stars you land.

People wonder how Stanford has passed ND in football. Two quality, successive coaches in Harbaugh and Shaw has certainly helped. However, the real key to success at a school such as Stanford (which has higher admission requirements than even ND) is keep your players in school and develop the hell out of them for 4 and 5 years, in the weight room and on the football field. That serves as the equalizer when they play a team like Oregon, USC, or Notre Dame, who outrecruits them on the regular. Ever find yourself wondering "who the hell is that?" when a Stanford player that you've never heard makes a tackle?.. It's usually at that point where I say "it doesn't matter what his name is, he's just another senior or 5th year guy that is a clone of the last guy, who played that position, with the exact same skill set." That continuity, as well as the attitude that Harbaugh and Shaw brought to the program and the consistent recruiting strategy they implore, has been the key to their prolonged success.
 
Absolutely. Brian Kelly is 100% responsible for the type of kids he recruits and the vetting out process, throughout their recruitment. Which furthers my point that an ND Coach, now more than ever, needs to really be selective in the type of kids he brings to ND. Of course he needs to go after a few kids each class that are "edgy" and could go either way in the process of sticking it out, but ND needs full classes, balanced classes of ND kids, much like Stanford does. If that means ND takes a couple more 3 stars or low 4 stars that will stay in school and aren't going to leave if they aren't participating as freshman or sophomores, so be it. With the type of talent ND gets, under proper development and leadership (especially defensively) ND needs those Kapron Lewis-Moore, Matthias Farley, Tom Zbikowski, Kona Schwenke, Drue Tranquill types that will stick around, provide with quality senior leadership and toughness and may even give you a 5th year. That doesn't mean that you don't go after the top kids, it just means that if you miss on those kids, you need quality (in terms of talent AND CHARACTER) kids in your class to replace them.

Brian Kelly is the head coach. Of course retention ultimately falls on him. However, as someone who has been a recruiting coordinator in a program, it also falls on that individual to foster relationships with not only the top kids, but the next tier of kids that you will have to rely on to fill out a lot of your class at ND. How selective you are in that process and how much work you put into vetting out which kids will stay long term and which will leave as soon as they face adversity, I would argue, at Notre Dame, is just as important as how many 5 stars you land.

People wonder how Stanford has passed ND in football. Two quality, successive coaches in Harbaugh and Shaw has certainly helped. However, the real key to success at a school such as Stanford (which has higher admission requirements than even ND) is keep your players in school and develop the hell out of them for 4 and 5 years, in the weight room and on the football field. That serves as the equalizer when they play a team like Oregon, USC, or Notre Dame, who outrecruits them on the regular. Ever find yourself wondering "who the hell is that?" when a Stanford player that you've never heard makes a tackle?.. It's usually at that point where I say "it doesn't matter what his name is, he's just another senior or 5th year guy that is a clone of the last guy, who played that position, with the exact same skill set." That continuity, as well as the attitude that Harbaugh and Shaw brought to the program and the consistent recruiting strategy they implore, has been the key to their prolonged success.


I sent you an email
 
In all 7 seasons except for 2012 - BK lost games he should of won - games that he cost ND from Winning not his players. This season it has been worse than all other seasons.

A good coach may have one game every 2 years that they cost their team from a win, BK has them a minimum of 1 or 2 or more every season like noted except for that 2012 year.

FACT - his special teams are average to below average every season.
FACT - his play calling is very questionable at times
FACT - his in game decision making which has led to at least 1 -2 losses in all seasons is below average. (this season it has been 5 losses).
FACT - his offensive scheme is not good
FACT - he burns up timeouts early in the first and second half of almost all games he has coached at ND.
FACT - his defense and defensive tackling has been atrocious.

The good coaches have none of these problems or issues with their teams.

His roster regardless of your excuse making is still loaded and better than all 5 teams he lost too.

I'm with you in the first paragraph of this statement, but then you lose me.

Fact - There is units within special teams that have been below average each year (which is on him) but Notre Dame has also enjoyed some fine specialists under BK's watch. I'd say CJ Sanders is pretty damn dynamic in the return game. When he got to ND, his first few years, ND's coverage units were among the best in the nation. Kyle Brindza had a really special year kicking and left here with ND records... You obviously discredit the inconsistencies, but as a coach, I thoroughly appreciate some of the accomplishments they've had on special teams as well. For the record, I'm all for replacing Scott Booker. I've been vocal about the fact that I think he's weakest link on the coaching staff now that BVG is gone.

Fact- His play calling does indeed drive me insane sometimes, especially in the red zone. But look around college football, tons of teams have questionable play calling according to fans. Basically, what is in question is the result, and what could have been done differently, anytime something fails to work. Did you catch the quote "Ass chewing" Nick Saban gave Lane Kiffen on the sidelines a couple weeks back over redzone play calling? Do I wish Kelly thought more like Saban and basically crucified his coaches for another attacking vertically, on the ground and through the air in the redzone? Yes I do. However, I'd come on here and have to listen to people cry about Kelly not "being nice" to his coordinators, especially on national tv. The catch 22 there is ridiculous.

Fact- His in game decision making is definitely strange at times. You and I are on the same page there. Look at any of my "excuse" filled posts about Kelly and you will see the same trend. I routinely applaud him for his big picture work with the program. Where I question his ability is in his game management and on field decisions. They have been suspect throughout his tenure. But you're not proving anything to me with this point, or countering any of my arguments. You're simply reinforcing something I've been saying all along... So hey, we're on same page here.

Fact- Saying his offensive scheme "is not good", IMO, is such an ignorant statement. To make that statement would be to ignore the dozens of other teams around college football running virtually the exact same scheme. Each coach uses their wrinkles, but there is nothing wrong with ND's offensive scheme. Or are 40+ coaches around college football all wrong, and you're right?... Now, what you may have been trying to talk about is play calling within the scheme (which we touched on above) or the ability to execute and sustain the scheme at a school like Notre Dame. If so, that's another conversation. But the Big 12 schools use many identical scheme principals to what Kelly does and many of them put up video game numbers doing it. Also, this scheme has produced a plethora of high end (1st and 2nd round picks) NFL talent during Kelly's tenure. That tells me that they are teaching a lot of things correctly and scheming to get their best players the ball, in order to showcase their talent, but at times they struggling with play calling and execution... Re-watch the Stanford game. Was there any issue with Kelly's scheme when they marched down the field running the ball North-South and walked in for a touchdown in the first quarter? It looked great to me. Thought I was watching Baylor or Ohio State. The problems came when Denbrock (through Kelly) reverted back to passing the ball all over the field with Kizer, instead of staying with what worked, until Stanford stopped it. That's a play calling issue, not a scheme issue.

Fact- He does burn through timeouts and it enrages me (like I'm sure it does most ND fans). If you're going to run a "check with me" system, you have to get plays in extremely quickly and get lined up on the LOS with a sense of urgency, so the defense can be surveyed and an adjustment can be made... Again, Kelly makes critical on field blunders at times. I've admitted to this time-and-again. I don't know how many more times I can be excused of defending this fact, when in fact, I don't. My personal opinion is that you have to limit personnel package substitutions if you want to run a check-with-me system, because they waste a lot of time changing personnel on the fly, which takes away from the time they have to call (and potentially change) a play. The tempo offenses that run "check-with-me" limit their substitution patterns in series so they can get lined up and focus on any adjustments they would like to make.

Fact- Under Bob Diaco, Notre Dame had the 2nd best scoring defense in the nation in 2012. Tuitt, Te'o, Shembo, Nix, Lewis-Moore, Jackson, Russell all became NFL draft picks (most of them high picks) out of that defense. But of course you won't give Kelly credit for the Diaco years, because that doesn't fit your agenda or the angle of your argument, right? That defense carried ND to it's first title game since 20 something years, but that was Diaco's defense, not Kelly's, right?... Now the VanGorder defense, that one is Brian Kelly's fault, correct?... Newsflash, they're both on Brian Kelly. The buck stops with him. When ND played fantastic defense, he deserved the credit. When they played poor defense, he deserved the blame. That's the nature of being a head coach. Fans want to obsess with the negative and completely ignore the positive, as if they occurred under two different regimes... For the record, in the 3 weeks since Kelly has taken the defense over and has essentially become the co-coordinator along with Mike Elston, the defense has shown substantial signs of improvement. They shut an explosive Syracuse down in the 2nd half, securing that win. They surrendered 10 points and played more than well enough to beat NC State in the monsoon and they held Stanford to 9 points last weekend. Kelly, of course, gets no credit for their turnaround, however, because ND is still losing and the offense (which was scoring 40ppg) is tanking since his attention has been diverted to the defense. That's fare. Again, the pressures of being a head coach, who must oversee an entire program.

The most egregious point you made what that the "good coaches" have none of those problems. Stanford and Michigan State fans and media often crucify their offensive playcallers (through their head coaches) for their "boring", "predictable", "non-creative" schemes. When you're winning, people say nothing. But as soon as you lose, everybody wants to rip apart what you do. Or how about in game decision making? Did you watch Michigan vs Michigan State game last year? Did you see the punt formation they were in and their lack of protection in an obvious punt block scenario?... No, good coaches (unless you don't think Dantonio or Harbaugh are good coaches) never have anything like that happen to them.
 
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