Recruiting is not good at ND (can we get past this idea that recruiting has been good here?)

[chaseball]

I want to start this off with saying that coaches have a big impact on recruiting. I'm not absolving Kelly of his failures at ND by making this article. In fact, if you read many of my posts I'm on the 'fire' Kelly band wagon. Not simply because of poor coaching/on the field decision making (those things are actually rather difficult to evaluate given the limited access/insight we have to the team), but by and large, because of lack luster recruiting/personnel results.

I do also believe that university administration (AD, university president, etc.) has a HUGE impact on recruiting as well based on policies relating to restrictions, budget, admissions, etc. This is clearly an area of the program/team/university that REQUIRES addressing.

ND DOES NOT RECRUIT "WELL", RECRUITING IS NOT "GOOD".

And nobody in the media seems to care/talk about it/ or report on it (there's just a seemingly awkward agreement among professionals/analysts that cover the team that the recruiting is 'good'). I don't know any sport where talent is virtually ignored or looked at as an afterthought. TALENT IS EVERYTHING. And it can be quantified thanks to a growing billion dollar recruiting industry that covers it extensively and keeps a database going back a decade ... like the one here on Rivals for instance.

The programs winning national championships on the football field are the programs winning national championships in recruiting leading up to them and its been that way since the ESPN/BCS era. This is an unarguable fact.

Here are national championship winners over the last 10+ years:

2005: Texas
2006: Florida
2007: LSU
2008: Florida
2009: Alabama
2010: Auburn
2011: Alabama
2012: Alabama
2013: Florida State
2014: Ohio State
2015: Alabama

What is the common denominator between all of these programs? If you haven't guessed it: They are recruiting powerhouses who dominate the recruiting rankings every year, have rosters full of consensus Top100 nationally rated recruits, and did so leading up to their national championships. Nobody recruits better than these programs and nobody wins more national championships/plays in more national championships than they do in the modern era.

Prior to 2005 it was USC dominating the recruiting rankings and also winning multiple national championships/playing in multiple national championship games.

NDs competition is no longer just the 12 teams on their schedule -- with the new playoff system -- NDs true competition is the top 5% of the 128 FBS programs in college football. Getting 4 star players at ND (which people often cite when defending NDs recruiting) isn't enough when the real playoff national championship contending programs are hording high 4 star and 5 star national bluechip talent.

Below is NDs recruiting class rank during the BK era

Year : ND rivals recruiting rank
2010: 14th
2011: 10th
2012: 20th
2013: 3rd
2014: 11th
2015: 11th
2016: 13th

These are not good enough results for a program with NDs money, prestige, history, fan suppport, etc. more importantly they are not good enough results to put the program in a prime position to win national championships.

These results don't even take into account into account all of the defections / suspensions / academic issues that lead to many of NDs best recruits leaving. Yes, all teams suffer from defections/academic issues/etc. but by ANY standard ND has been hit VERY hard (abnormally so) during the BK era.

These rankings also don't take into account that ND really only recruits well at a few position groups (mostly on the offensive side of the ball) thus providing depth at a few positions but largely leaving major talent gaps/talent drop off at the majority of others (mostly defense).

Also, ND does a terrible job maximizing its 85 scholarship allotment. Yes we can list off 3 or 4 star players 2 deep at many positions .. but if we lose a starter at ND we lose ANY rotation at the position because we don't have a capable 3rd and 4th guy ready in the wings. THIS IS A MAJOR ISSUE THAT GOES VIRTUALLY UNTALKED ABOUT.

Rivals breaks it down like this (these are the players the top contending teams are competing for):
6.1 Rivals Rating (5 star)
6.0 Rivals Rating (high 4 star top 50 type national talent)
5.9 Rivals Rating (middle 4 star -- top 100ish national talent)
5.8 Rivals Rating (low 4 star)
5.7 Rivals Rating (high 3 star)

ND does extremely well with the two lowest tiers here (low 4 star, high 3 star) while the top 5% of programs are pulling in the 5.9, 6.0, 6.1s in mass quantity.

Until the talent gap is closed ND will always be a huge underdog to make the playoff, let alone win the playoff if they get there. And that's regardless of who is coaching the team. The program's results over the last 20+ years only further proves this fact.

This 2017 class is more of the same ... 80% of the roster will be high 3 star, low 4 star, only perpetuating the mediocrity another season further. Why are people surprised about another likely 8 or 9 win season when ND recruits like an 8 or 9 win program?

Why sample size matters, why MSU winning despite their mediocre talent has no relevance to NDs program, etc.

Why does Alabama and OSU lose to lesser opponents sometimes despite their talent advantage? Because variance/luck plays a significant role over a small sample size/a single game (4 quarters). There's a much stronger correlation between recruiting rankings AND winning percentage when expanding the sample size to more games/multiple seasons.

There's nothing more important/conducive to winning than the quality of athlete a program can obtain on the recruiting trail. Nothing more. This is something that should just be intuitively obvious. People like to cite very rare exceptions to this rule. Program's like MSU, or Oregon during the Chip Kelly era, or even Stanford. "how come these program's win despite their bad recruiting" ... these program's are both an exception to the rule and they haven't actually won anything worthy of Notre Dame (like a national championship for instance -- or even gotten there).

 

[michigaNDer#1]

Really, the common denominator I saw was SEC and recruiting hotbeds.

 

[chaseball]

Really, the common denominator I saw was SEC and recruiting hotbeds.

The SEC is winning the biggest games in college football, is the best conference in football, and recruiting the best players by and large right now. Nothing I've said disputes that. I guess I don't understand your point.

 

[michigaNDer#1]

Nothing. You said it. Teams with zero restrictions, bend the rules and are local to the talent.

 

[chaseball]

Ohio State and Florida State are two non SEC programs that are recruiting better than everybody not Alabama. Michigan under Harbaugh is ALSO trending up to that level in recent years as well. That's two midwest programs that are not in the SEC recruiting at a championship level. There's no good excuse for NDs mediocre recruiting results. It needs to change, and it won't until fans/ND nation talks truthfully and openly about it. Tired of the excuses, tired of the ignorance regarding NDs recruiting, etc.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Missed another common denominator: Urban/ Saban accounted for 7/11. 3 of the remaining 4 had transcendent players at the QB position: Vince Young, Jameis Winston, Cam Newton.

 

[chaseball]

Missed another common denominator: Urban/ Saban accounted for 7/11. 3 of the remaining 4 had transcendent players at the QB position: Vince Young, Jameis Winston, Cam Newton.

I've written a thousand words on the matter .. I'd love to have an open debate about the topic but cherry picking 1 portion of the entire article to dismiss the many valid points that were made doesn't seem logical to me.

EDIT: This response isn't directed at you exclusively .. more of a response to the general nature of responses to the thread.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Talent may be an issue when ND gets to the natty like in 2012 or Oh St last year (2 of the most talented teams in CFB history) but the alleged talent gap is not an issue any where in this years schedule or lasts. Basically 95% of the games ND plays, the talent gap myth is irrelevant. Fact is we don't play the 10 teams that have better rivals rankings than ND, so winning 9-11 games a year shouldn't be an issue.

 

[bizzybecknd]

In summary, the talent BK has recruited is good enough to beat every team on the schedule and make a play off run, last year was extremely close, this year has been a disaster but I don't think it's a lack of personnel.

 

[chaseball]

Talent may be an issue when ND gets to the natty like in 2012 or Oh St last year (2 of the most talented teams in CFB history) but the alleged talent gap is not an issue any where in this years schedule or lasts. Basically 95% of the games ND plays, the talent gap myth is irrelevant. Fact is we don't play the 10 teams that have better rivals rankings than ND, so winning 9-11 games a year shouldn't be an issue.

It isn't a matter of simply out talenting the guys that line up opposite of you -- you want to massively out talent them ... the question isn't really whether you have more talent than your opposition -- the real question is how much more relative talent do you have (e.g. do you have more talent vs this opponent than the top 5% of programs in college football)?

Another way of looking at it: There's no point of diminished returns when it comes to talent acquisition ... the more you out-talent the team you are facing the greater the likelihood for the win, and the less likely luck/variance plays a role in the outcome of the game. Right now, NDs talent is good for winning about 65% of the games on their schedule (assuming an 8-4 record which is close to Kelly's average over the last 6+ years)... add 5-10 Rivals100 players to NDs current 85 man roster and i guarantee you that percentage would be significantly higher.

You can't look at a season as a game vs every opponent on your schedule. You need to maximize the talent on your roster 85 deep to prepare for the many ups and downs, various strengths and weaknesses that will come over the course of 48 quarters during the regular season. The more talent you stack the better equipped you are at facing those 48 quarters and the more wins you will have despite the opposition on your schedule.

 

[michigaNDer#1]

It's not a lack of personnel. UM has yet to prove that. UM hasn't recruited as well as Ohio state. UM has gotten one 5* a year, the last two years. How many has Wisconsin? Did you watch those games?

 

[chaseball]

It's not a lack of personnel. UM has yet to prove that. UM hasn't recruited as well as Ohio state. UM has gotten one 5* a year, the last two years. How many has Wisconsin? Did you watch those games?

Please take note of the last two paragaphs in the OP (replace MSU with Wisconsin):

Why sample size matters, why MSU winning despite their mediocre talent has no relevance to NDs program, etc.

Why does Alabama and OSU lose to lesser opponents sometimes despite their talent advantage? Because variance/luck plays a significant role over a small sample size/a single game (4 quarters). There's a much stronger correlation between recruiting rankings AND winning percentage when expanding the sample size to more games/multiple seasons.

There's nothing more important/conducive to winning than the quality of athlete a program can obtain on the recruiting trail. Nothing more. This is something that should just be intuitively obvious. People like to cite very rare exceptions to this rule. Program's like MSU, or Oregon during the Chip Kelly era, or even Stanford. "how come these program's win despite their bad recruiting" ... these program's are both an exception to the rule and they haven't actually won anything worthy of Notre Dame (like a national championship for instance -- or even gotten there).

 

[bizzybecknd]

Urban Meyer did it @ Utah (beat Bama in the 09 Sugar Bowl with 2-3 star recruits). I tend to fall on the side of legendary coaching or transcendent players. Jumbo, Clemson, Auburn, LSU, Georgia, Tennesee all recruit at a high level but haven't reached the point of sustained success ND longs for, besides the transcendent players. Maybe why ND was so successful in 2012- Te'o. I for one, don't think it is a recruiting issue. Now, obviously Urban/Saban recruit very well but if either had this team they wouldn't have lost a game the last two years with the roster in hand.

 

[chaseball]

Urban Meyer did it @ Utah (beat Bama in the 09 Sugar Bowl with 2-3 star recruits). I tend to fall on the side of legendary coaching or transcendent players. Jumbo, Clemson, Auburn, LSU, Georgia, Tennesee all recruit at a high level but haven't reached the point of sustained success ND longs for, besides the transcendent players. Maybe why ND was so successful in 2012- Te'o. I for one, don't think it is a recruiting issue. Now, obviously Urban/Saban recruit very well but if either had this team they wouldn't have lost a game the last two years with the roster in hand.

It wasn't Meyer at Utah in '09, it was Whittingham.

Regardless, for every example you can provide of some one off miracle season by a middling program, I can give you 10 more examples of the best recruited teams winning the biggest games in college football every year. This goes back to the "exception not the rule" point.

There are exceptions (e.g. a team that performs way above or way below their talent suggests they should) but by and large, the majority of teams play to the level of their talent.

Also, I don't mean to diminish the role/impact coaching has on a program. A good head coach is imperative but a head coach is also a general manager in college football. His responsibilities go way beyond game day and play calling (where most irish fans seem to put the majority of their emphasis/focus/criticism on). The head coach is responsible for the level of talent the program is attracting (recruiting), and then maximizing that talent as well (an area that fans dont put enough emphasis/criticism on).

Kelly's been recruiting mediocrely for the majority of his ND tenure -- yet nobody cares/talks about it/points to it. The general sentiment among the fan base is that "recruiting is fine".

You can't finish on average in the mid teens in recruiting, and win on Saturdays like the teams who are recruiting in the top 5. Until recruiting SIGNIFICANTLY improves at Notre Dame, the same results we've come to expect over the last 20 some years will continue in perpetuity.

As 2017 signing day approaches and ND slides into the mid teens in recruiting ranking (like they do every recruiting class when all of the big names in the Rivals100 make their decisions late in the cycle) there should already be an appropriate expectation among the fan base regarding the future outlook of wins and losses on Saturday.

 

[sshulk]

Kelly is an above average (not elite) recruiter. I'd say the same re: talent development. we are once again seeing ND pipeline to the NFL. He is a below average gameday coach and often does less with more. To overcome his coaching he needs a massive talent advantage and even that is often not enough as is proven in all the close losses to inferior talent this year.

 

[perseverare]

Kelly is an above average (not elite) recruiter. I'd say the same re: talent development. we are once again seeing ND pipeline to the NFL. He is a below average gameday coach and often does less with more. To overcome his coaching he needs a massive talent advantage and even that is often not enough as is proven in all the close losses to inferior talent this year.

certain positions are recruited very well; on a whole recruiting is not balanced. And yep on the game day comment.

 

[HRC08]

Chase is right and all of you know that he's right!

Notre Dame hasn't been a perennial top 5 programs since Vinny Cerato and Lou Holtz left. And what did Vinny and Lou do differently then the rest of the bunch that followed them? Land top 5 class after top 5 class.

 

[Telx1]

Chase...every year we have this same debate. There is no denying that superior talent significantly improves the likelihood of winning. You and others have quantified this in context of Rivals ratings and National Championships. To take your argument to the absurd, why not just rank the teams by their cumulative high school talent ratings and drop the games entirely. ND would be a top 12-14 team on a regular basis. Again, taking your argument to an absurd conclusion. But, the point being that games do matter, player development does matter, coaching does matter. I for one strongly believe that ND would have been in the playoffs last season if Kelly had hired a great college DC rather than BVG. Elite coaches win and this attracts elite players, and then they dominate. Hargaugh is in the process of proving this point; something Kelly hasn't done. If I had to choose solely between elite talent and elite coaching, I would choose elite talent. But if the choice is between elite talent with piss poor coaching and very good talent with elite coaching, I'll take the later. All this is further complicated by how the talent is distributed. An elite QB with very good offensive linemen will have more impact than a very good QB with elite linemen, as per Bizzy's point as to the impact of transcendent players. I don't argue that ND under Kelly has recruited great talent but failed to win a NC because of poor coaching; but I do argue that Kelly has recruited good enough talent to make the playoffs and coaching has undermined this.

 

[dagimpper1]

Great post chase. You summed up what I believe but, you said it better then I ever could. Thanks for posting. I have been boycotting ND for about 7 years. The only thing I still do that ND. May get money for is I keep my subscription to B&G illustrated. If enough people do this maybe ND gets the point.

 

[shooter1977]

Back in the day I believed the recruiting hype that Rivals and other sites pump out. It's a big part of their business model. But then I watched a team with Michael Floyd, Golden Tate, Kyle Rudolph and the Lebron James of football not get a first down against USC until the 3rd quarter. That same team got shut out by Boston College and couldn't move the ball against a 2-8 Syracuse.

This year Washington is as dominate as any team in the country despite a significant drop in recruiting rankings under Petersen. Louisville dropped 60 on FSU with recruiting classes in the 40s. It's coaching.

Kelly has seemingly been on cruise control since 2013 and it caught up big time this year. An couple extra 5.9 players wouldn't change that.

 

[twalsh]

Chase...every year we have this same debate.

No, we actually have the debate only if we are losing. All sorts of old debates get drudged up every time we hit a rough patch. Hang around here long enough, you can basically predict the threads and the arguments.

 

[NDSMC78]

No, we actually have the debate only if we are losing. All sorts of old debates get drudged up every time we hit a rough patch. Hang around here long enough, you can basically predict the threads and the arguments.

Not to mention the posters who will be starting the threads and making the arguments.

 

[zonairish]

Could recruiting be better of course. We need an admin that will allow for exceptions , better pay for coaches and better coaches

 

[SALittleGiant513]

Ohio State and Florida State are two non SEC programs that are recruiting better than everybody not Alabama. Michigan under Harbaugh is ALSO trending up to that level in recent years as well. That's two midwest programs that are not in the SEC recruiting at a championship level. There's no good excuse for NDs mediocre recruiting results. It needs to change, and it won't until fans/ND nation talks truthfully and openly about it. Tired of the excuses, tired of the ignorance regarding NDs recruiting, etc.

How does fans talking "truthfully and openly" about a good but not great recruiting history have any impact on change with regards to ND recruiting in the future?

 

[Telx1]

How does fans talking "truthfully and openly" about a good but not great recruiting history have any impact on change with regards to ND recruiting in the future?

Don't think the ND fan needs to have an AA moment of telling everyone we are good but not great at recruiting. If admin were influenced by fans here, they would immediately change admission to allow for three recruits annually who clearly don't meet minimum requirements, and this would go a long way towards having the kind of elite talent Chase believes are essential. I prefer to keep admisssins as is while making changes to reduce the academic burden during the season, with the goal of minimizing academic casualties.

 

[twalsh]

Don't think the ND fan needs to have an AA moment of telling everyone we are good but not great at recruiting. If admin were influenced by fans here, they would immediately change admission to allow for three recruits annually who clearly don't meet minimum requirements, and this would go a long way towards having the kind of elite talent Chase believes are essential. I prefer to keep admisssins as is while making changes to reduce the academic burden during the season, with the goal of minimizing academic casualties.

That's already in place. With all the summer courses they kids take, they can take the NCAA minimum 12 hours in the fall if they choose to, and stay on track. Many of them choose to take more than 12 hours, but it's their choice.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Chase,

Good read, but I think we're missing a big point here.

Notre Dame is starting 21, 4 stars and 1, 5 star among their 11 on offense and 11 on defense. Of the 44 players in their 2-deep (both sides of the ball), there is roughly a dozen composite, top 150 players and some of their highest ranked recruits have been along then offensive and defensive lines.

Notre Dame has substantially more "starpower" than Oregon, Oklahoma and Michigan State, who have all been to the playoffs in the past two years. Michigan State had won more games in the past five years than Notre Dame, Michigan and Ohio State, despite not being anywhere close to them in recruiting rankings. They beat a completely loaded OSU team last year, despite not belonging on the same field as the Buckeyes in terms of "talent" in 2015.

Notre Dame out recruits Stanford, yet look at Shaw's record vs Notre Dame.

The reality is that Notre Dame is nowhere close Alabama on the field, or in recruiting, but they have recruited well enough, with good coaching and the right mindset, to be a top 10 program. Again, look at Stanford, Michigan State, Oklahoma and Oregon as proof of that. If those are perennial top 10 programs, Notre Dame has the talent to be as well. It's about attitude, consistency, development and execution. It doesn't matter that ND has 4 star recruits across the board if they aren't developing as a team like other programs, with lesser recruits... The next step for ND is not beating Alabama or Ohio State for a national title. That's two steps away. The next step is developing a consistency and a killer instinct within the program so that you live up to your top 10 pre season rankings and fight for playoff spots nearly every year. When you get to the point that the playoffs become a realistic goal every year, at that point the next step is to tinker with your program to make it that step further for a national title.

First thing first. Notre Dame needs development on par with a school like Oklahoma or Michigan State. When they reach that point, recruiting will take the next step, because elite kids want to play for a winner and they'll get the bodies they need to go to the next level. After the run to the title game in 2012, they landed 9, top 150 recruits in 2013, including 5 stars Max Redfield and Jaylon Smith.

Notre Dame will recruit like that again, after they consistently win games at a high level. Until then, they'll continue to get the type of 4 star (with the occasional 5 star) talent they have now, which is good enough to beat anyone on the current schedule. We don't play Alabama or Ohio State each year. Until we do, the focus needs to be developing a tough, sustainable, system, geared towards the talent that we do have.

This is what annoys me the most. The postions that ND best recruits are Offensive Line, Tight End and Quarterback. The receivers they can get in bunches are guys built like Chase Claypool, Miles Boykin and Micah Jones (2018). The offense ND should be running is something like Michigan's. A downhill, hard nosed, rushing attack, bolstered by spread passing principles and a mobile quarterback who can extend plays and run when called upon.... Deshone Kizer is built to play more like Andrew Luck at Stanford than Deshone Watson at Clemson.

Brian Kelly is obsessed with speed and finesse, when the strength of his recruiting base (Midwest, Northeast) is strength and toughness.

 

[Harpo Marxist]

The elite coaches have a common denominator vis-a-vis recruiting: a total commitment to all three phases of the game. There just aren't the weaknesses inherent in special teams or defense for example that you will find at Notre Dame. Brian Kelly lacks that total commitment...in recruiting and in coaching and development of players.

 

[IrishBlessings]

Chase,

Good read, but I think we're missing a big point here.

Notre Dame is starting 21, 4 stars and 1, 5 star among their 11 on offense and 11 on defense. Of the 44 players in their 2-deep (both sides of the ball), there is roughly a dozen composite, top 150 players and some of their highest ranked recruits have been along then offensive and defensive lines.

Notre Dame has substantially more "starpower" than Oregon, Oklahoma and Michigan State, who have all been to the playoffs in the past two years. Michigan State had won more games in the past five years than Notre Dame, Michigan and Ohio State, despite not being anywhere close to them in recruiting rankings. They beat a completely loaded OSU team last year, despite not belonging on the same field as the Buckeyes in terms of "talent" in 2015.

Notre Dame out recruits Stanford, yet look at Shaw's record vs Notre Dame.

The reality is that Notre Dame is nowhere close Alabama on the field, or in recruiting, but they have recruited well enough, with good coaching and the right mindset, to be a top 10 program. Again, look at Stanford, Michigan State, Oklahoma and Oregon as proof of that. If those are perennial top 10 programs, Notre Dame has the talent to be as well. It's about attitude, consistency, development and execution. It doesn't matter that ND has 4 star recruits across the board if they aren't developing as a team like other programs, with lesser recruits... The next step for ND is not beating Alabama or Ohio State for a national title. That's two steps away. The next step is developing a consistency and a killer instinct within the program so that you live up to your top 10 pre season rankings and fight for playoff spots nearly every year. When you get to the point that the playoffs become a realistic goal every year, at that point the next step is to tinker with your program to make it that step further for a national title.

First thing first. Notre Dame needs development on par with a school like Oklahoma or Michigan State. When they reach that point, recruiting will take the next step, because elite kids want to play for a winner and they'll get the bodies they need to go to the next level. After the run to the title game in 2012, they landed 9, top 150 recruits in 2013, including 5 stars Max Redfield and Jaylon Smith.

Notre Dame will recruit like that again, after they consistently win games at a high level. Until then, they'll continue to get the type of 4 star (with the occasional 5 star) talent they have now, which is good enough to beat anyone on the current schedule. We don't play Alabama or Ohio State each year. Until we do, the focus needs to be developing a tough, sustainable, system, geared towards the talent that we do have.

This is what annoys me the most. The postions that ND best recruits are Offensive Line, Tight End and Quarterback. The receivers they can get in bunches are guys built like Chase Claypool, Miles Boykin and Micah Jones (2018). The offense ND should be running is something like Michigan's. A downhill, hard nosed, rushing attack, bolstered by spread passing principles and a mobile quarterback who can extend plays and run when called upon.... Deshone Kizer is built to play more like Andrew Luck at Stanford than Deshone Watson at Clemson.

Brian Kelly is obsessed with speed and finesse, when the strength of his recruiting base (Midwest, Northeast) is strength and toughness.

Great post I.O. - 100 % spot on ! It's all about coaching. Bk is not the answer. Too many blunders and a offense and a defense with no identity. Not to mention annually below average special teams.

How many wasted timeouts do we have every game ?

Game mgmt for BK has been horrible ALL 7 YEARS.

Would of been nice if ND had 1 more timeout at the end of the Stanford game so they didn't have to waste a play at the end there.
But we burned 1 up early in that 2nd half like we usually do and it cost us possibly the game.

Our recruiting is good enough right now for us to be a 10 to 12 win team every season. When that starts to happen - then u can probably garner some even better recruits that can take u to a N.T. game.

BK is a politician masquerading as a football coach. Have never seen or heard a head coach make so many excuses.

In fact I think I will "write him in" as our next president.

 

[perseverare]

when a lack of success has so many explanations and continues for time, it is more appropristely called
failure. The excuses by BK and his 'fans' are endless. All he has to do is WIN.

 

[bizzybecknd]

No excuses, if anything I pointed to the talent being enough but not the coaching. Like I said, I don't think recruiting has been an issue for BK. Saban/Meyer would be headed to the playoffs with this exact roster in my opinion. But then again, those are Top 5 coaches of all time.

 

[DillonDomer]

ND has enough talent to do pretty well - is it enough to win a NC right now...probably not right now.

IIO is right that ND has recruited well generally, but not specifically. I can't stand how coaches have extremely specific requirements about a position - I remember Diaco wouldn't recruit LBs below a certain height. Do I care if the LT is 6-5 or 6-8 - yes, better if they are taller, but it doesn't matter in the end if you have the right player. You want as many great athletes as possible - we have seen how great athletes can move around and be successful. Is football rocket science - NO - a good enough athlete can learn a new position/technique very quickly.

We need leadership - and this is mostly from the players. Yes, coaches can coach them up, but a team with leaders on the field makes all of the difference. These are leaders who lead by example and call out teammates who are not meeting the same expectations.

We need coaches to coach - and not out-think themselves. We have had the schematic advantage with Weis and Kelly's high powered offense that wilts against good teams. How about doing the basic things REALLY WELL and sprinkling in some of the extra stuff (I have to say this is Harbaugh). Coaches need to find the leaders on the team - and mentor them.

 

[perseverare]

for the ole farts, the guys that grew up seeing a top ten in the AP and UP top 10 polls include ND the hardest thing for us to do is the match the apathy of the ND administration.
Intellectually I can grasp the reality that the days of ND as a nationally relevant football power is over; but emotionally I just ain't there yet!

 

[twalsh]

for the ole farts, the guys that grew up seeing a top ten in the AP and UP top 10 polls include ND the hardest thing for us to do is the match the apathy of the ND administration.
Intellectually I can grasp the reality that the days of ND as a nationally relevant football power is over; but emotionally I just ain't there yet!

Now you're getting into silliness. The current ND administration is anything but apathetic about athletic success. Some fans just equate an unwillingness to make the various changes, that THE FANS think are required to be more successful, with apathy. That's just patently false. They want to win as badly as anyone does, they just aren't going to give up on our principals in order to do so. As Father Hesburgh said many years ago, there's no academic virtue in playing mediocre football.

 

[IowaIrish1]

I don't get why the administration can't take some Tony Rice kids. I mean they don't take all the best applicants for law and MBA school. They make exceptions for "certain" people.

 

[deadmanramsey]

The way I see it: Notre Dame out recruits almost all of their opponents. We are not losing to teams with better talent!

You can say we only rank 11th or whatever nationally (which if translated equally to the field, is still great!), rather we rank 1st or maybe 2nd when comparing our talent to our schedule on a yearly basis.

Now getting to the playoffs and winning two games may be a challenge due to talent, but God forbid ND actually beats a team with superior talent once in a while.

 

[Harpo Marxist]

The way I see it: Notre Dame out recruits almost all of their opponents. We are not losing to teams with better talent!

You can say we only rank 11th or whatever nationally (which if translated equally to the field, is still great!), rather we rank 1st or maybe 2nd when comparing our talent to our schedule on a yearly basis.

Now getting to the playoffs and winning two games may be a challenge due to talent, but God forbid ND actually beats a team with superior talent once in a while.

Thats because some coaches can coach up the talent, like Holtz...others coach down the talent...like BK.

 

[Java65]

It's certainly good enough to beat every team on our schedule this year and good enough to beat 10 out of 12 teams on an annual basis.

Is it good enough to beat the likes Bama and O$U, probably not nor will it ever be in this environment.

 

[perseverare]

when there is the delicate balance between success and failure that ND has, the coaching staff cannot continually make bad decisions and snatch losses from the teeth of victory.

 

[Java65]

when there is the delicate balance between success and failure that ND has, the coaching staff cannot continually make bad decisions and snatch losses from the teeth of victory.

I agree 100% but on the flip side when there is such a delicate balance you are going to lose games. Nobody player or coach can be perfect. This delicate balance (I love this term for where ND stands) is exactly why I don't think ND can win a NC. At places like Bama they have a huge leeway for error or misfortune.