Pump the Breaks on Conference Talk

[TeddyOH]

Always a hot button topic, as evidenced by the growing thread today. Trust me, the noise is going to become deafening as our season progresses and we keep winning.

I agree 100% that we are a long-shot to get into the playoffs this year if we go 11-1. Several things need to happen to allow us to jump into the top 4, and a Clemson collapse doesn't look likely (although Clemson fans won't hesitate to remind you they have seen worse many times before).

Even if we are on the outside looking in, I still wouldn't propose a jump to the ACC. I won't go into the MANY reasons and advantages that being independent is important to Notre Dame. What I want to do is remind everyone of an almost certain eventuality:

The Playoff will expand to 8 teams in the near future.

Sure, the Playoff panel will deny this, but every year a Power 5 conference champion is going to be left out. It happened last year and the Big 12 changed their conference charter and petitioned for (and lost) a championship game. Can you imagine the meltdown should Ole' Miss win out and be a 2-loss SEC champ potentially missing the Playoffs? When it comes down to it, the Playoff serves the NCAA members. It will change if the members want it to change. I think 8 teams is going to happen within 5 years.

Once that happens, all Power 5 conferences will have a guaranteed spot for their champion. That leaves 3 at-large spots for ND to fight for. This year at 11-1, we would be a mortal lock for the top 8. That would be the case any year. Some years, we could even slip in with 2-losses. That might even offer us an advantage. I bet a 1-loss ND would get in over a 1-loss conference championship loser. Losing that last game is going to really be damaging.

So just sit tight as the drum to join a conference beats on - almost 95% of the time played by people who DON'T have ND's interests at heart.

 

[NDEwing18]

Always a hot button topic, as evidenced by the growing thread today. Trust me, the noise is going to become deafening as our season progresses and we keep winning.

I agree 100% that we are a long-shot to get into the playoffs this year if we go 11-1. Several things need to happen to allow us to jump into the top 4, and a Clemson collapse doesn't look likely (although Clemson fans won't hesitate to remind you they have seen worse many times before).

Even if we are on the outside looking in, I still wouldn't propose a jump to the ACC. I won't go into the MANY reasons and advantages that being independent is important to Notre Dame. What I want to do is remind everyone of an almost certain eventuality:

The Playoff will expand to 8 teams in the near future.

Sure, the Playoff panel will deny this, but every year a Power 5 conference champion is going to be left out. It happened last year and the Big 12 changed their conference charter and petitioned for (and lost) a championship game. Can you imagine the meltdown should Ole' Miss win out and be a 2-loss SEC champ potentially missing the Playoffs? When it comes down to it, the Playoff serves the NCAA members. It will change if the members want it to change. I think 8 teams is going to happen within 5 years.

Once that happens, all Power 5 conferences will have a guaranteed spot for their champion. That leaves 3 at-large spots for ND to fight for. This year at 11-1, we would be a mortal lock for the top 8. That would be the case any year. Some years, we could even slip in with 2-losses. That might even offer us an advantage. I bet a 1-loss ND would get in over a 1-loss conference championship loser. Losing that last game is going to really be damaging.

So just sit tight as the drum to join a conference beats on - almost 95% of the time played by people who DON'T have ND's interests at heart.

I think you're spot on regarding this.

 

[Telx1]

Ted...wrote something similar months ago but not nearly as detailed and elegant. In total agreement that the current system will fail simply because one of the Power Five conferences will always be on the outside looking in, and when this turns out to be the Pac 12 or The Big or the SEC... we will see immediate clamor and approval for the eight team playoff format. ND needs to bide its time and not fret about joining a conference, and of course, our brilliant AD knows this better than any of us.

 

[MTIrish98]

There's too much money in an 8-team playoff for it to stay at 4.

An 8 team bracket by default will have 3 at large berths. Problem solved. No conference needed.

 

[Nocalirish]

An 11-1ND team is a playoff lock in every scenario except if there are 4 undefeated power 5 teams.

 

[perseverare]

NDE

you feeling ok?

 

[NDEwing18]

NDE

you feeling ok?

Just needing a drink.

 

[perseverare]

never read you reply to an initial post in total agreement before; no in the mood for a debate huh.


well w/b

 

[irish6789]

never read you reply to an initial post in total agreement before

More posting by the attention seeking tool. You clutter everything of potential relevance to ND alums and fans. You have no friends here. Some choose to indulge you out of habit, but your contribution is nil. .

 

[MTIrish98]

An 11-1ND team is a playoff lock in every scenario except if there are 4 undefeated power 5 teams.

A 1-loss SEC champ and possibly a 1-loss B1G champ (definitely OSU) would likely be in front of ND. Probably even a 1-loss Clemson as ACC champ.

 

[Nocalirish]

A 1-loss SEC champ and possibly a 1-loss B1G champ (definitely OSU) would likely be in front of ND. Probably even a 1-loss Clemson as ACC champ.

Ignorant speculation. None of this will be true. ND wins out and they are in.

 

[NDEwing18]

Ignorant speculation. None of this will be true. ND wins out and they are in.

Your analysis leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[NDSMC78]

Your analysis leaves a lot to be desired.

Hmmm. You think there is some analysis there?

 

[NDEwing18]

Hmmm. You think there is some analysis there?

I'm trying to give him some benefit of the doubt.

 

[IrishBlooded]

An 11-1ND team is a playoff lock in every scenario except if there are 4 undefeated power 5 teams.

Huh?

So in a world where
Clemson
Bama or LSU
Ohio state
TCU / Baylor
All win out from this week forward. Along with ND. The committee you believe would drop one of those (keeping in mind for three of those spots you would have teams with 12+ wins in a 13 game schedule) including one that has a heads up win against ND in the regular season. And put ND in instead?

Why?

 

[NDEwing18]

Huh?

So in a world where
Clemson
Bama or LSU
Ohio state
TCU / Baylor
All win out from this week forward. Along with ND. The committee you believe would drop one of those (keeping in mind for three of those spots you would have teams with 12+ wins in a 13 game schedule) including one that has a heads up win against ND in the regular season. And put ND in instead?

Why?

To be fair, in his situation he provided that if there are four undefeated teams, ND would be left out. For the teams you provided, Clemson, LSU, Ohio State and either TCU or Baylor could all win out and leave us shut out.

However, his error is believing that it's a "lock" that an 11-1 ND team would be placed in the playoff ahead of a 12-1 SEC champion. There's virtually no way that would happen.

 

[onlyonenow]

I would hope they would go to a 6 team playoff with the top 2 getting bye's.

Mainly because if we go to 8 just about every year there will be at least one of them that truly does not belong.

I cannot think of a year where by December you could say there were more than 6 teams that deserved consideration for a NC.

 

[NDSMC78]

I would hope they would go to a 6 team playoff with the top 2 getting bye's.

Mainly because if we go to 8 just about every year there will be at least one of them that truly does not belong.

I cannot think of a year where by December you could say there were more than 6 teams that deserved consideration for a NC.

IMO, the bigger problem is the notion that the conference champs are somehow entitled to bids by virtue of winning their respective conferences. Take the top 4, regardless of conference.

 

[IowaIrish1]

IMO, the bigger problem is the notion that the conference champs are somehow entitled to bids by virtue of winning their respective conferences. Take the top 4, regardless of conference.

This is the main focus as stated by their website. Conference championships are to be used to separate 2 comparable teams. Of course it's pretty easy to say any two teams are comparable near the top, since it can be so subjective.

1. Mission. The committee’s task will be to select the best teams, rank the teams for inclusion in the playoff and selected other bowl games and then assign the teams to sites.
2. Principles. The committee will select the teams using a process that distinguishes among otherwise comparable teams by considering:
   • Conference championships won,
   • Strength of schedule,
   • Head-to-head competition,
   • Comparative outcomes of common opponents (without incenting margin of victory), and,
   • Other relevant factors such as key injuries that may have affected a team’s performance during the season or likely will affect its postseason performance.

 

[FightingIrish44]

I don't like the part about injuries at all. They're a part of the game. Too bad. How do you accurately quantify the inpact an injury has? Yeah, a QB may be easy, but what about backups as well as other starters? So dumb, IMO. I already don't like this playoff system.

 

[Win5002]

An 11-1ND team is a playoff lock in every scenario except if there are 4 undefeated power 5 teams.

Let me introduce you to the playoff committee. Why is a committee where ND has one quasi representative going to put you in over their individual conference champions that have 12-1 records against your 11-1 or even the Big 12 champ that is 11-1 with a bigger win than ND will potentially have if Stanford is there at 1 loss(Stanford could be beaten by Utah or whoever wins the Pac 12 South)?

Member Position Conference affiliation [a]Term expires
Long, JeffJeff Long (chairman) Arkansas athletic director SEC February 2018
Alvarez, BarryBarry Alvarez Wisconsin athletic director; former Wisconsin coach Big Ten February 2017
Gould, Michael C.Michael C. Gould Former Air Force Academy superintendent N/A February 2016
Haden, PatPat Haden USC athletic director; former USC quarterback Pac-12 February 2016
Hocutt, KirbyKirby Hocutt Texas Tech athletic director; former Kansas State linebacker Big 12 February 2017
Jernstedt, TomTom Jernstedt Former NCAA executive vice president N/A February 2018
Johnson, BobbyBobby Johnson Former Vanderbilt head coach N/A February 2017
Osborne, TomTom Osborne Former Nebraska coach and athletic director Big Ten/Big 12 February 2016
Radakovich, DanDan Radakovich Clemson athletic director ACC February 2018
Rice, CondoleezzaCondoleezza Rice Former U.S. Secretary of State and Stanford provost N/A February 2017
Tranghese, MikeMike Tranghese Former Big East commissioner The American February 2016
Wieberg, SteveSteve Wieberg Former USA Today reporter N/A February 2018
Willingham, TyroneTyrone Willingham Former Stanford / Notre Dame / Washington head coach N/A February 2018

 

[Win5002]

In the post above I mentioned the politics of the committee which I believe will be real over time.

But if we look a quality wins ANY of the conference champions with a 12-1 record from the B1G, SEC, Big 12 & PAC 12 will have more quality wins than ND and everyone except the Big 12 has 1 more win. Also, even if the ACC winner is someone other than Clemson and doesn't have more you will have lost to their runner up giving the ACC champ a leg up.

ND's best win can be Stanford which knocks the PAC 12 out. Even a worst case scenario for the B1G with Iowa with a 1 loss conference champion beat Northwestern(who beat Stanford), Wisconsin & MSU/OSU in the title game.

Big 12- A 1 loss Baylor,TCU, OU or OSU has a lot more quality wins.

I gave the reasoning for the ACC & don't even need to for the SEC.

Granted this is a weaker year for the Texas & USC who headlined your schedule, but tying yourselves to the weakest P5 league for scheduling doesn't help ND's cause this year and possibly for the future. If you lose to the ACC champ or lower they can say the ACC deserves to be in over ND and even if you beat them the reasoning may be the ACC is the weakest P5.

I saw it was mentioned by Dan Wolken USA today writer he was hearing from more and more administrators we really have a P4 not a P5.

 

[Win5002]

Ted...wrote something similar months ago but not nearly as detailed and elegant. In total agreement that the current system will fail simply because one of the Power Five conferences will always be on the outside looking in, and when this turns out to be the Pac 12 or The Big or the SEC... we will see immediate clamor and approval for the eight team playoff format. ND needs to bide its time and not fret about joining a conference, and of course, our brilliant AD knows this better than any of us.

But I think there is a problem with this analysis and I am not even saying it is right its just the way it is. All of the P5 schools set up a system where they could lock out G5 schools and this is due to power and politics due to limiting to 4 teams. I think you will find going forward there will be additional politics between the P5 leagues. The B1G, SEC & PAC 12 want ACC/ND & Big 12 schools for future expansion. Just as the P5 & ND locked G5 schools out, the 3 safe leagues will try and disadvantage those they want for expansion.

It won't be 100% of the time like the G5 schools are left out but in years where they can make some quasi explanation justifying their choices and not an egregious choice. The best way they can have control and do that is limiting the playoff to 4 teams and not going to 8.

The news the ACCN is going to be delayed past 2017 that was just let out yesterday, will make the sharks circle even more.

http://www.myajc.com/news/sports/co...rnallink_referralbox_free-to-premium-referral

 

[NDSMC78]

But I think there is a problem with this analysis and I am not even saying it is right its just the way it is. All of the P5 schools set up a system where they could lock out G5 schools and this is due to power and politics due to limiting to 4 teams. I think you will find going forward there will be additional politics between the P5 leagues. The B1G, SEC & PAC 12 want ACC/ND & Big 12 schools for future expansion. Just as the P5 & ND locked G5 schools out, the 3 safe leagues will try and disadvantage those they want for expansion.

It won't be 100% of the time like the G5 schools are left out but in years where they can make some quasi explanation justifying their choices and not an egregious choice. The best way they can have control and do that is limiting the playoff to 4 teams and not going to 8.

The news the ACCN is going to be delayed past 2017 that was just let out yesterday, will make the sharks circle even more.

http://www.myajc.com/news/sports/co...rnallink_referralbox_free-to-premium-referral

The idea of the big 10, SEC and Pac 12 expanding is pretty ridiculous. Those conferences now are so big that teams go years without playing each other. Isn't the whole idea of being in a conference that you play the other members of the conference? Yeah, Texas will be a plum for any conference, and Oklahoma would probably follow. Other than those two, what schools will add much to SEC, Big 10 and Pac 12?

 

[SiberianKnightmare]

A lot depends on how you look finishing the season. OSU got in last year because they dominated teams late in the year, especially the conference championship game. I think that's how they got in over the Big 12 champ.

 

[Win5002]

The idea of the big 10, SEC and Pac 12 expanding is pretty ridiculous. Those conferences now are so big that teams go years without playing each other. Isn't the whole idea of being in a conference that you play the other members of the conference? Yeah, Texas will be a plum for any conference, and Oklahoma would probably follow. Other than those two, what schools will add much to SEC, Big 10 and Pac 12?

Do you think the leagues went to 14 to stay there permanently? Part of the advantage of the leagues going to 16 or higher is they do stretch into other regions helping their recruiting and exposure, similarly to what ND does with its independence. Everyone overlooks this when the B1G took Rutgers & Maryland. They also added two states that produce more or as many recruits as every state in their footprint with the exception of Ohio.

It might very well be the ACC carved up for the markets. Its a below average football conference and when they are making about 18-19 million in revenue and the B1G is at around 45M the next negotiation starting in 2018 and the SEC is in the high 30's to low 40's, you think the Virginia & North Carolina schools and possibly Ga. Tech don't have to think about leaving?

then if FSU & Clemson take 4 other schools such as Ga. Tech if they don't go to the B1G, Louisville, Miami, Louisville, Duke or Va. Tech if they were left to the Big 12 you have a very good 3rd conference and they will be able to increase their revenues. I know you personally hate the thought of any conference but I wonder if ND has to join one would consider this league. I don't know what the PAC 12 does. Does ND ever consider a group of teams going to the PAC 12? I know you love the USC & Stanford rivalry.

I don't know what the PAC 12 does.

If the Big 12 is carved up, it gets more interesting. Kansas also has some value. Also, OU & Texas may want to bring along some regional rivalries to leagues depending where they went. My guess is the leagues out East have the advantage and the PAC 12 decides are Big 12 leftovers worth more than Mountain West teams in larger cities.

I understand you don't want any of this to happen but you don't have to pretend there is no possibility of it either.

 

[IowaIrish1]

In the post above I mentioned the politics of the committee which I believe will be real over time.

But if we look a quality wins ANY of the conference champions with a 12-1 record from the B1G, SEC, Big 12 & PAC 12 will have more quality wins than ND and everyone except the Big 12 has 1 more win. Also, even if the ACC winner is someone other than Clemson and doesn't have more you will have lost to their runner up giving the ACC champ a leg up.

ND's best win can be Stanford which knocks the PAC 12 out. Even a worst case scenario for the B1G with Iowa with a 1 loss conference champion beat Northwestern(who beat Stanford), Wisconsin & MSU/OSU in the title game.

Big 12- A 1 loss Baylor,TCU, OU or OSU has a lot more quality wins.

I gave the reasoning for the ACC & don't even need to for the SEC.

Granted this is a weaker year for the Texas & USC who headlined your schedule, but tying yourselves to the weakest P5 league for scheduling doesn't help ND's cause this year and possibly for the future. If you lose to the ACC champ or lower they can say the ACC deserves to be in over ND and even if you beat them the reasoning may be the ACC is the weakest P5.

I saw it was mentioned by Dan Wolken USA today writer he was hearing from more and more administrators we really have a P4 not a P5.

Is the ACC the weakest power 5 though? How about the Big 10 outside of OSU? Michigan and Michigan St are that good? Or is some terrible teams in the Big making them look that way. I don't think its so clear cut as some may think.

 

[NDEwing18]

Do you think the leagues went to 14 to stay there permanently? Part of the advantage of the leagues going to 16 or higher is they do stretch into other regions helping their recruiting and exposure, similarly to what ND does with its independence. Everyone overlooks this when the B1G took Rutgers & Maryland. They also added two states that produce more or as many recruits as every state in their footprint with the exception of Ohio.

It might very well be the ACC carved up for the markets. Its a below average football conference and when they are making about 18-19 million in revenue and the B1G is at around 45M the next negotiation starting in 2018 and the SEC is in the high 30's to low 40's, you think the Virginia & North Carolina schools and possibly Ga. Tech don't have to think about leaving?

then if FSU & Clemson take 4 other schools such as Ga. Tech if they don't go to the B1G, Louisville, Miami, Louisville, Duke or Va. Tech if they were left to the Big 12 you have a very good 3rd conference and they will be able to increase their revenues. I know you personally hate the thought of any conference but I wonder if ND has to join one would consider this league. I don't know what the PAC 12 does. Does ND ever consider a group of teams going to the PAC 12? I know you love the USC & Stanford rivalry.

I don't know what the PAC 12 does.

If the Big 12 is carved up, it gets more interesting. Kansas also has some value. Also, OU & Texas may want to bring along some regional rivalries to leagues depending where they went. My guess is the leagues out East have the advantage and the PAC 12 decides are Big 12 leftovers worth more than Mountain West teams in larger cities.

I understand you don't want any of this to happen but you don't have to pretend there is no possibility of it either.

I think at some point, conferences are going to become so large that they are unwieldy (such as the 16-team WAC) that they collapse.

 

[NDSMC78]

Do you think the leagues went to 14 to stay there permanently? Part of the advantage of the leagues going to 16 or higher is they do stretch into other regions helping their recruiting and exposure, similarly to what ND does with its independence. Everyone overlooks this when the B1G took Rutgers & Maryland. They also added two states that produce more or as many recruits as every state in their footprint with the exception of Ohio.

It might very well be the ACC carved up for the markets. Its a below average football conference and when they are making about 18-19 million in revenue and the B1G is at around 45M the next negotiation starting in 2018 and the SEC is in the high 30's to low 40's, you think the Virginia & North Carolina schools and possibly Ga. Tech don't have to think about leaving?

then if FSU & Clemson take 4 other schools such as Ga. Tech if they don't go to the B1G, Louisville, Miami, Louisville, Duke or Va. Tech if they were left to the Big 12 you have a very good 3rd conference and they will be able to increase their revenues. I know you personally hate the thought of any conference but I wonder if ND has to join one would consider this league. I don't know what the PAC 12 does. Does ND ever consider a group of teams going to the PAC 12? I know you love the USC & Stanford rivalry.

I don't know what the PAC 12 does.

If the Big 12 is carved up, it gets more interesting. Kansas also has some value. Also, OU & Texas may want to bring along some regional rivalries to leagues depending where they went. My guess is the leagues out East have the advantage and the PAC 12 decides are Big 12 leftovers worth more than Mountain West teams in larger cities.

I understand you don't want any of this to happen but you don't have to pretend there is no possibility of it either.

Whether they intended to be permanent when they went to 14 teams, I don't think that such huge conferences will last long term. The whole idea of conferences arose from playing other schools near you. For instance, the SEC arose in the southeast, the Big 10 arose in the midwest, etc. The idea that conferences may stretch into other areas is really TV based. Deliverance of sports via TV might not prove to be a viable long term model. I personally think conferences will collapse under their own weight. Or in other words, when a conferences have two eight team divisions where the members of one division rarely play the other, they will eventually split.
The ACC schools aren't going anywhere. Each school's television rights belong to the conferences, not to the schools. Pie in the sky thinking such as yous is exactly that--pie in the sky.

 

[Win5002]

I think at some point, conferences are going to become so large that they are unwieldy (such as the 16-team WAC) that they collapse.

That was a conference with no real "anchor" schools to give the conference value, I don't think that is a great example.

 

[NDSMC78]

That was a conference with no real "anchor" schools to give the conference value, I don't think that is a great example.

I think it is an excellent example. Conferences are already too big. Making them bigger is only going to make matters worse.

 

[Win5002]

Whether they intended to be permanent when they went to 14 teams, I don't think that such huge conferences will last long term. The whole idea of conferences arose from playing other schools near you. For instance, the SEC arose in the southeast, the Big 10 arose in the midwest, etc. The idea that conferences may stretch into other areas is really TV based. Deliverance of sports via TV might not prove to be a viable long term model. I personally think conferences will collapse under their own weight. Or in other words, when a conferences have two eight team divisions where the members of one division rarely play the other, they will eventually split.
The ACC schools aren't going anywhere. Each school's television rights belong to the conferences, not to the schools. Pie in the sky thinking such as yous is exactly that--pie in the sky.

I think your leaving out the recruiting aspect. The B1G's expansion last time was not only about tv but also recruits for football. Texas provides a lot of recruits but future Big 12 expansion needs to add more recruiting areas also in the long run. We already are seeing leagues move to 9 games, 10 games with larger conferences sense so they can play the schools more often.

IF it is the ACC that gets poached I don't know if it is when the B1G renegotiates its deal here soon, schools may feel their signing on to the GOR's were with the promise of an ACC network that has not come to fruition. Maybe they wait until the end of the GOR's but FSU, Clemson, Ga. Tech, Louisville won't in the long term continue to be crushed revenue wise against their in-state rivals and expect to compete. The ACC thinks a ND full membership is going to save them, I don't see that happening.

I think its pretty reasonable to see the long term plan is for 64 to 80 of the current FBS teams to break off and form another division from the bottom teams. Some think once that happens they may combine all their tv rights together and have one entity sell them which would get the most revenue overall. Many think that would lead to smaller conferences again and more regional, I think there are some problems with that also though.

I understand you personally will go to your grave wanting ND to be independent and it may be best for ND. I think its silly to not recognize the possibility of it though and that seems to be where things are heading. The problem I think you will find is ND being independent does nothing for the rest of college football and where its headed and they will not put your interest over theirs.

 

[Win5002]

I think it is an excellent example. Conferences are already too big. Making them bigger is only going to make matters worse.

I understand your love for independence but don't be blind to the facts. You had a bunch of small schools that generated no revenue. You didn't have your Alabama, Florida, Texas, OU, USC, OSU, Mich., PSU, or FSU to anchor the league. You didn't even have secondary brands that draw well but are in the 2nd tier such as Georgia, LSU, Auburns, UCLA, MSU, Wisconsin, Texas A&M ,Nebraska, Miami, and Clemsons of the world in that league.

The comparison between the old WAC and leagues with these teams is preposterous.

I get you love INDEPENDENCE! But don't let that make you try and say the sky is orange. I understand your bias and your desire to keep but at least discuss it rationally.

 

[NDSMC78]

Is the ACC the weakest power 5 though? How about the Big 10 outside of OSU? Michigan and Michigan St are that good? Or is some terrible teams in the Big making them look that way. I don't think its so clear cut as some may think.

Not to mention that the two most recent additona

I think your leaving out the recruiting aspect. The B1G's expansion last time was not only about tv but also recruits for football. Texas provides a lot of recruits but future Big 12 expansion needs to add more recruiting areas also in the long run. We already are seeing leagues move to 9 games, 10 games with larger conferences sense so they can play the schools more often.

IF it is the ACC that gets poached I don't know if it is when the B1G renegotiates its deal here soon, schools may feel their signing on to the GOR's were with the promise of an ACC network that has not come to fruition. Maybe they wait until the end of the GOR's but FSU, Clemson, Ga. Tech, Louisville won't in the long term continue to be crushed revenue wise against their in-state rivals and expect to compete. The ACC thinks a ND full membership is going to save them, I don't see that happening.

I think its pretty reasonable to see the long term plan is for 64 to 80 of the current FBS teams to break off and form another division from the bottom teams. Some think once that happens they may combine all their tv rights together and have one entity sell them which would get the most revenue overall. Many think that would lead to smaller conferences again and more regional, I think there are some problems with that also though.

I understand you personally will go to your grave wanting ND to be independent and it may be best for ND. I think its silly to not recognize the possibility of it though and that seems to be where things are heading. The problem I think you will find is ND being independent does nothing for the rest of college football and where its headed and they will not put your interest over theirs.

We have been hearing the same BS from folks like you for years, as if it is a great idea that the Big 10 added Rutgers and Maryland. Yeah, great additions. You may consider 16 team conferences to be a realistic possibility. I don't.
BTW, if there is a break off, as you suggest, it is not necessarily going to lead to "a formation of another division from the bottom teams." Teams that will stay behind include ND, Stanford, Northwestern Vanderbilt, Boston College, among others, for starters.

 

[NDSMC78]

I understand your love for independence but don't be blind to the facts. You had a bunch of small schools that generated no revenue. You didn't have your Alabama, Florida, Texas, OU, USC, OSU, Mich., PSU, or FSU to anchor the league. You didn't even have secondary brands that draw well but are in the 2nd tier such as Georgia, LSU, Auburns, UCLA, MSU, Wisconsin, Texas A&M ,Nebraska, Miami, and Clemsons of the world in that league.

The comparison between the old WAC and leagues with these teams is preposterous.

I get you love INDEPENDENCE! But don't let that make you try and say the sky is orange. I understand your bias and your desire to keep but at least discuss it rationally.

Discuss it rationally? Really? You are the guy throwing around your own far out proposals as realistic possibilities. The realities say otherwise.

 

[Win5002]

Is the ACC the weakest power 5 though? How about the Big 10 outside of OSU? Michigan and Michigan St are that good? Or is some terrible teams in the Big making them look that way. I don't think its so clear cut as some may think.

Look, I can't wait for a day when college football doesn't make these decisions and its simply played out on the field. 4 leagues maybe expand CCG's to 4-6 teams within each league compete for the conference championship to be in the playoffs. There is never another need for poll or selection committee again. No more selecting teams like figure skating or gymnastics selects winners. This would make college football great.

but until then I think the ACC will be regarded overall as the weakest power football league most years.

 

[Win5002]

Not to mention that the two most recent additona





We have been hearing the same BS from folks like you for years, as if it is a great idea that the Big 10 added Rutgers and Maryland. Yeah, great additions. You may consider 16 team conferences to be a realistic possibility. I don't.
BTW, if there is a break off, as you suggest, it is not necessarily going to lead to "a formation of another division from the bottom teams." Teams that will stay behind include ND, Stanford, Northwestern Vanderbilt, Boston College, among others, for starters.

That would be an option, I doubt any of those teams really choose that unless they are left behind. How much do you think your NBC contract would be worth then. While your at it why don't you merge with the Ivy league.

I guarantee you will be in the minority of the ND fan base that wants to do that, lol.

 

[NDSMC78]

Look, I can't wait for a day when college football doesn't make these decisions and its simply played out on the field. 4 leagues maybe expand CCG's to 4-6 teams within each league compete for the conference championship to be in the playoffs. There is never another need for poll or selection committee again. No more selecting teams like figure skating or gymnastics selects winners. This would make college football great.

but until then I think the ACC will be regarded overall as the weakest power football league most years.

You are again speculating. Things may change in 5 years or in 10 years.

 

[Win5002]

You are again speculating. Things may change in 5 years or in 10 years.

Your right I am speculating. I think if you read various college football boards and media commentary most would indicate we are moving towards some type of consolidation in FBS football. I'm not saying I know the exact details but I think most would say we will get to 4 leagues and one of either the ACC or Big 12 is vulnerable.

I just ask you give reasoned thoughts to your responses other than "I love independence" and why 64 to 80 other schools are going to give up seeking their best self interests to save Notre Dame's independence. You already have the ACC hoodwinked into thinking you are their savior and will join them some day.

I don't see a national narrative anywhere we need more independent college football teams, the opposite is what is discussed. Its one thing for you to make the case for independence but to ignore the national trend is another thing all together.

 

[NDSMC78]

Your right I am speculating. I think if you read various college football boards and media commentary most would indicate we are moving towards some type of consolidation in FBS football. I'm not saying I know the exact details but I think most would say we will get to 4 leagues and one of either the ACC or Big 12 is vulnerable.

I just ask you give reasoned thoughts to your responses other than "I love independence" and why 64 to 80 other schools are going to give up seeking their best self interests to save Notre Dame's independence. You already have the ACC hoodwinked into thinking you are their savior and will join them some day.

I don't see a national narrative anywhere we need more independent college football teams, the opposite is what is discussed. Its one thing for you to make the case for independence but to ignore the national trend is another thing all together.

Sorry, what may be posted on various college football boards doesn't cut it. I can say from being on this board for 15 years that a lot of crap is posted here. Have fun with your speculation. I think it's all so much BS.