OT: Death, Taxes and Lebron James

[raulduke_007]

Lebron on the olympics at this point in his career is a perfect role for him because his passing and basketball IQ is elite, so he can fully take advantage of the elite players surrounding him. That was the last dance for Durant, Curry and James, and probably Kerr. We have no clue how Tatum/Embid would have faired had the minutes been swapped - they might have won in a more dominant fashion.

I would also like to learn more about the balco situation.

But I am not blind to the fact I have Jordan bias. But I also have John Elway bias and absolutely HATED folks saying Montana was the better qb. I would have liked to drop Elway onto those 49er teams and seen what he could have done. The gap b/w Montana and Elway is WAY closer than the gap b/w MJ and Lebron in my opinion. The reasons why have been debated ad nauseum.

I would like to see more effort from NBA players, less palming/carrying/traveling, and I am ready for LBJ to retire. I do hope you enjoy the season though!

If MJ was such a dominant player and the league was tougher how in the world does MJ leave & the Bulls win over 50 games & were a bad Hue Hollins call from the ECF? When Lebron left Cavs they were in lottery every yr until Lebron return & they go to the Finals every yr. when he came back, Miami with Wade & Bosh couldnt make the playoffs the yr after Lebron left. The 2nd time Lebron leaves the Cavs with 9 guys from that Finals team they couldnt win 25 games. Lakers didnt make the playoffs for 6 straight yrs & all of sudden yr 2 they win the title. Weird stuff.

 

[Golson5]

If MJ was such a dominant player and the league was tougher how in the world does MJ leave & the Bulls win over 50 games & were a bad Hue Hollins call from the ECF? When Lebron left Cavs they were in lottery every yr until Lebron return & they go to the Finals every yr. when he came back, Miami with Wade & Bosh couldnt make the playoffs the yr after Lebron left. The 2nd time Lebron leaves the Cavs with 9 guys from that Finals team they couldnt win 25 games. Lakers didnt make the playoffs for 6 straight yrs & all of sudden yr 2 they win the title. Weird stuff.

Before Lebron got to Cleveland they were awful. He turned them around immediately. And when he left they were the worst team in the league. Like you said it happened everywhere the same way

When MJ left the bulls the 1st time they were still one of the best teams in the league

 

[sjb75]

Lebron on the olympics at this point in his career is a perfect role for him because his passing and basketball IQ is elite, so he can fully take advantage of the elite players surrounding him. That was the last dance for Durant, Curry and James, and probably Kerr. We have no clue how Tatum/Embid would have faired had the minutes been swapped - they might have won in a more dominant fashion.

I would also like to learn more about the balco situation.

But I am not blind to the fact I have Jordan bias. But I also have John Elway bias and absolutely HATED folks saying Montana was the better qb. I would have liked to drop Elway onto those 49er teams and seen what he could have done. The gap b/w Montana and Elway is WAY closer than the gap b/w MJ and Lebron in my opinion. The reasons why have been debated ad nauseum.

I would like to see more effort from NBA players, less palming/carrying/traveling, and I am ready for LBJ to retire. I do hope you enjoy the season though!

You have Michael Jordan bias for a good reason. I do as well. MJ is the greatest NBA player I have ever watched.

 

[sjb75]

I don't think he's top 5 today. But certainly top 12

The Nuggets were/are a bad matchup for the Lakers. They made the Conf Finals the year before and got destroyed by the nuggets. This past year they just caught them in the first rd. Bad matchup. They don't have the size to defend Jokic and Murray destroys all of LAs guards.

Agree with top 12, even top 10. Lebron still plays at a high level, no question.

 

[mrwigglesby21]

If MJ was such a dominant player and the league was tougher how in the world does MJ leave & the Bulls win over 50 games & were a bad Hue Hollins call from the ECF? When Lebron left Cavs they were in lottery every yr until Lebron return & they go to the Finals every yr. when he came back, Miami with Wade & Bosh couldnt make the playoffs the yr after Lebron left. The 2nd time Lebron leaves the Cavs with 9 guys from that Finals team they couldnt win 25 games. Lakers didnt make the playoffs for 6 straight yrs & all of sudden yr 2 they win the title. Weird stuff.

I can appreciate all that. Lebron James is the system. The best player and the entire system left. I do believe James' first finals appearance against the Spurs was his best achievement (going there w/ those scrubs), and, IMHO, he was on track to catch Jordan or put himself in a conversation with Jordan at that point. The loss to Dallas was the first knock on him not catching Jordan, but, he still could have.

You're now taking us back into the Jordan vs Lebron debate and neither of us are going to switch sides.

Pippen, when Jordan left, was no scrub. I believe Kukoc joined them as well? And they still ran the triangle with Phil Jackson. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

If you haven't seen The Wizard Years documentary, I would give it a go. When Mike was 40, and Rip Hamilton was in the game with him, they went 15-1 at one point. I forget Jordan's stats, but they were incredible, just as good if not better than what Lebron is doing. Then he had a nasty knee on knee collision and that shut everything down.

 

[raulduke_007]

I can appreciate all that. Lebron James is the system. The best player and the entire system left. I do believe James' first finals appearance against the Spurs was his best achievement (going there w/ those scrubs), and, IMHO, he was on track to catch Jordan or put himself in a conversation with Jordan at that point. The loss to Dallas was the first knock on him not catching Jordan, but, he still could have.

You're now taking us back into the Jordan vs Lebron debate and neither of us are going to switch sides.

Pippen, when Jordan left, was no scrub. I believe Kukoc joined them as well? And they still ran the triangle with Phil Jackson. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

If you haven't seen The Wizard Years documentary, I would give it a go. When Mike was 40, and Rip Hamilton was in the game with him, they went 15-1 at one point. I forget Jordan's stats, but they were incredible, just as good if not better than what Lebron is doing. Then he had a nasty knee on knee collision and that shut everything down.

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Ill give you Dallas even though that team swept 2 time defending champs Kobe Lakers and gentlemen swept the Big 3 OKC. Not that analytics are the end all be all but the analytics had Dallas as a better opp than any MJ faced in the Finals having said that he choked.
2018 playoff run was by far Lebron's best acheivement in a non title yr. That team was absolutely terrible and that was the best Lebron ever was as a player. I do believe if Kyrie and Love dont get hurt Cavs beat GS in 15 and if KD doesnt join GS Lebron would have got his 6 titles, but that's the way sports work. I will add that I think Lebron's win vs 73 win GS, OKC and Spurs were more impressive Finals wins than MJ had against any of the teams he faced in the Finals.

 

[mrwigglesby21]

If MJ was such a dominant player and the league was tougher how in the world does MJ leave & the Bulls win over 50 games & were a bad Hue Hollins call from the ECF? When Lebron left Cavs they were in lottery every yr until Lebron return & they go to the Finals every yr. when he came back, Miami with Wade & Bosh couldnt make the playoffs the yr after Lebron left. The 2nd time Lebron leaves the Cavs with 9 guys from that Finals team they couldnt win 25 games. Lakers didnt make the playoffs for 6 straight yrs & all of sudden yr 2 they win the title. Weird stuff.

Also, I appreciate the civil conversation.

Are you asking me how the Cavs didn't win more than 25 after the first time Lebron left with this team remaining:

2010-2011 Cleveland Cavaliers Roster​

Based on the provided search results, here is the Cleveland Cavaliers’ 2010-2011 roster:

Guards​

1. Baron Davis (PG) - 6’3" (1.91 m), 209 lb (95 kg), UCLA
2. Ramon Sessions (PG) - 6’3" (1.91 m), 190 lb (86 kg), Nevada
3. Daniel Gibson (SG) - 6’2" (1.88 m), 190 lb (86 kg), Texas
4. Manny Harris (SG) - 6’5" (1.96 m), 185 lb (84 kg), Michigan
5. Christian Eyenga (SG/SF) - 6’5" (1.96 m), 210 lb (95 kg), DR Congo

Forwards​

1. Antawn Jamison (PF) - 6’9" (2.06 m), 223 lb (101 kg), UNC
2. Joey Graham (SF) - 6’7" (2.01 m), 225 lb (102 kg), Oklahoma State
3. Jamario Moon (SF) - 6’8" (2.03 m), 205 lb (93 kg), Meridian Community College
4. Luke Harangody (PF) - 6’8" (2.03 m), 246 lb (112 kg), Notre Dame
5. Samardo Samuels (PF) - 6’9" (2.06 m), 260 lb (118 kg), Louisville
6. Jawad Williams (SF) - 6’9" (2.06 m), 218 lb (99 kg), UNC

Centers​

1. Anderson Varejão © - 6’11" (2.11 m), 273 lb (124 kg), Brazil
2. J.J. Hickson © - 6’9" (2.06 m), 242 lb (110 kg), NC State
3. Ryan Hollins © - 7’0" (2.13 m), 240 lb (109 kg), UCLA
4. Semih Erden © - 7’0" (2.13 m), 240 lb (109 kg), Turkey
   
   
   When he came back in 2014 they had all star Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving.
   
   I believe the first year without James in Miami D'wayne Wade had a major hamstring injury that forced him to miss remainder of the playoffs. He played 66 games in the regular season and Bosh only played 44. They managed to win almost 40.

 

[mrwigglesby21]

Ill give you Dallas even though that team swept 2 time defending champs Kobe Lakers and gentlemen swept the Big 3 OKC. Not that analytics are the end all be all but the analytics had Dallas as a better opp than any MJ faced in the Finals having said that he choked.
2018 playoff run was by far Lebron's best acheivement in a non title yr. That team was absolutely terrible and that was the best Lebron ever was as a player. I do believe if Kyrie and Love dont get hurt Cavs beat GS in 15 and if KD doesnt join GS Lebron would have got his 6 titles, but that's the way sports work. I will add that I think Lebron's win vs 73 win GS, OKC and Spurs were more impressive Finals wins than MJ had against any of the teams he faced in the Finals.

I am happy to point out the things Lebron did well. But you must also point out the same for Jordan.

Jordan never went to game 7 in the Finals. That is dominance. Nobody saved a title for Jordan, as Irving and Allen did for James. Irving dropped back to back 40 point games against that 73 win GS team. Jordan had NO help like that my friend. Pippen's back was completely gone for championship number 6.

Enjoy your evening my fellow Irish fan.

 

[raulduke_007]

I am happy to point out the things Lebron did well. But you must also point out the same for Jordan.

Jordan never went to game 7 in the Finals. That is dominance. Nobody saved a title for Jordan, as Irving and Allen did for James. Irving dropped back to back 40 point games against that 73 win GS team. Jordan had NO help like that my friend. Pippen's back was completely gone for championship number 6.

Enjoy your evening my fellow Irish fan.

To be fair Lebron had 16 in the 4th before Ray hit the shot and had one of the greatest performances in Game 7's history to win the title. Lebron went 40 40 27pt triple dble in games 5-7 to beat GS and was dominant vs OKC. He was also dominant vs Miami.
As for saving asses MJ went 3-18 vs NY down 0-2 but Pippen came through clutch and even against Portland not that it would have mattered in the end. MJ was on the bench when the reserves cut a 15 pt 2nd half lead down to under 5 before he returned.
Even the Jazz Game 6 "the shot game" the infamous 5 pts the refs gifted the Bulls where the refs took away Isley's 3 pointer even though he beat the shot clock and counted Pippen's basket even though the shot clock expired. Who knows how Game 7 would have played out.

 

[Pennick4]

Is this a serious story? He could have his mom join the team and make more history. Garbage

 

[savvyandsassier]

Oh man, you guys are still going at it! And with this latest development, Lebron James' son has entered the building, and is now part of the debate. What if he's like totally a bust, and is revealed as nothing more than a publicity stunt, and even darker than that, that there's an unmistakable sense of privilege and royalty, no pun intended, or whatever, like aristocracy, as if it's his birthright as King James' son to naturally succeed if not to elite all-star status or whatnot, at least to be on a roster. Yikes.

I think it's a bad look for Lebron, who definitely has a reputation for being coddled, in some broad sense, even though of course he's awesome, and quite possibly is the GOAT even though I don't think so. And he's more pampered than Jordan was. Jordan, like other transcendent 80s stars, wanted to win more. And in addition to his awesome skills and ability and prowess on the court, he was just tougher and more of a winner in the truest sense. And Lebron's so comparatively soft and entitled, that he expects his own son to be able to join him on an actual NBA roster.

Advantage Jordan....

 

[Golson5]

I can appreciate all that. Lebron James is the system. The best player and the entire system left. I do believe James' first finals appearance against the Spurs was his best achievement (going there w/ those scrubs), and, IMHO, he was on track to catch Jordan or put himself in a conversation with Jordan at that point. The loss to Dallas was the first knock on him not catching Jordan, but, he still could have.

You're now taking us back into the Jordan vs Lebron debate and neither of us are going to switch sides.

Pippen, when Jordan left, was no scrub. I believe Kukoc joined them as well? And they still ran the triangle with Phil Jackson. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

If you haven't seen The Wizard Years documentary, I would give it a go. When Mike was 40, and Rip Hamilton was in the game with him, they went 15-1 at one point. I forget Jordan's stats, but they were incredible, just as good if not better than what Lebron is doing. Then he had a nasty knee on knee collision and that shut everything down.

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His stats weren't as good or better with the wizards as Lebron is doing now.

Also Lebron has played about 20,000 more minutes than MJ and was still fresher.

He takes care of his body better. Jordan smoke a lot of cigars, drank and went out a lot. A lot of gambling

 

[sjb75]

I am happy to point out the things Lebron did well. But you must also point out the same for Jordan.

Jordan never went to game 7 in the Finals. That is dominance. Nobody saved a title for Jordan, as Irving and Allen did for James. Irving dropped back to back 40 point games against that 73 win GS team. Jordan had NO help like that my friend. Pippen's back was completely gone for championship number 6.

Enjoy your evening my fellow Irish fan.

Two three peats. Playing 82 games a season as an alpha. Pretty remarkable achievement for MJ.

It’s tough to spin away two three peats in an 8 year span.

 

[Golson5]

Two three peats. Playing 82 games a season as an alpha. Pretty remarkable achievement for MJ.

It’s tough to spin away two three peats in an 8 year span.

I don't think anyone is spinning it away. Mj is the greatest player or one of the 2 or 3 greatest players to ever live.

But if we are just going by winning with no context and nothing else that matters, Russell won 11 titles in 13 seasons. And Havlichick won 8 titles.

 

[sjb75]

I don't think anyone is spinning it away. Mj is the greatest player or one of the 2 or 3 greatest players to ever live.

But if we are just going by winning with no context and nothing else that matters, Russell won 11 titles in 13 seasons. And Havlichick won 8 titles.

The thread is titled "Death, Taxes, and LeBron James," not Death, Taxes, and Bill Russell, or Death, Taxes, and John Havlicek.

 

[Golson5]

The thread is titled "Death, Taxes, and LeBron James," not Death, Taxes, and Bill Russell, or Death, Taxes, and John Havlicek.

So why do you keep bringing up Michael Jordan then ?

 

[sjb75]

I didn't say he was the all time greatest, although he may be

I said all time great....which he absolutley is. And if you don't think he's one of the greatest ever, you are clueless and have never watched basketball

This is you very early in the thead. Before I spoke a word. You said LeBron "....may be...." the greatest.

We disagree. IMO LeBron isn't the greatest NBA player who ever lived.

And I then, later, offered my opinion. Aren't these threads about offering opinions?

 

[ZibbyQuinn]

Lakers lost that series to the defending champs on 2 buzzer beaters by Murray. Porter played out of his mind and Laker's "others" shot below 30% that series. Lebron and AD did their part. What doesnt add up is why a USC fan like yourself spends his time trolling a ND message board.

What doesn’t add up is a 20 page obsession with Lebron on an ND football message board that you resurface every time he takes a shit. Let it die

 

[raulduke_007]

What doesn’t add up is a 20 page obsession with Lebron on an ND football message board that you resurface every time he takes a shit. Let it die

This is by far the most popular thread on this board. 22k views, 777 posts and counting. The owners should be cutting me a check for creating valuable content.

 

[Golson5]

This is you very early in the thead. Before I spoke a word. You said LeBron "....may be...." the greatest.

We disagree. IMO LeBron isn't the greatest NBA player who ever lived.

And I then, later, offered my opinion. Aren't these threads about offering opinions?

Well then don't ask why I brought up Russell and Havlichick based on your MJ comment .

 

[Golson5]

What doesn’t add up is a 20 page obsession with Lebron on an ND football message board that you resurface every time he takes a shit. Let it die

The people keeping it alive are the people who want to bring MJ debate into a thread that was talking about LeBron

 

[ZibbyQuinn]

This is by far the most popular thread on this board. 22k views, 777 posts and counting. The owners should be cutting me a check for creating valuable content.

All by 3 people

 

[raulduke_007]

All by 3 people

Be careful this thread as annoying as it is will suck you in. You dont want to look, you dont want to reply, but yet you click on it and comment on it. It's got a power all it's own.

 

[sjb75]

I didn't say he was the all time greatest, although he may be

I said all time great....which he absolutley is. And if you don't think he's one of the greatest ever, you are clueless and have never watched basketball

This is Golson very early in the thread.

If you do not want a debate, don't write LeBron "may be..." the greatest of all time.

 

[Chitown11]

This is Golson very early in the thread.

If you do not want a debate, don't write LeBron "may be..." the greatest of all time.

golson doesn't know football and he certainly doesnt know basketball. The dude is clueless

 

[Golson5]

This is Golson very early in the thread.

If you do not want a debate, don't write LeBron "may be..." the greatest of all time.

What are you talking about ?

 

[raulduke_007]

Still early but Reddick already a huge upgrade from coach pockets. Better sets, better game management, using AD, Lebron & the others correctly. If the Lakers can move D Russell for another 3 & D guy like a Bruce Brown they will be legit conteders for the title.

 

[sjb75]

Still early but Reddick already a huge upgrade from coach pockets. Better sets, better game management, using AD, Lebron & the others correctly. If the Lakers can move D Russell for another 3 & D guy like a Bruce Brown they will be legit conteders for the title.

Yawn.

 

[raulduke_007]

Yawn.

Are you ok?

 

[Chitown11]

Still early but Reddick already a huge upgrade from coach pockets. Better sets, better game management, using AD, Lebron & the others correctly. If the Lakers can move D Russell for another 3 & D guy like a Bruce Brown they will be legit conteders for the title.

who cares

 

[Golson5]

who cares

Obviously you do since you respond

 

[raulduke_007]

Lebron still showing he is him. 1st 4 minutes of the 4th 16pts for the game 32 14 rebs 5 ast.

 

[raulduke_007]

Its funny when casuals think Lebron isnt a killer.

 

[raulduke_007]

Father time having the hardest time catching Lebron. After a slower than usual start Lebron has 3 straight triple-dubs, has 2nd best player rating in NBA behind Joker. Now that JJ has him running the pt & DLo to the bench the Lakers look like title contenders.

 

[Golson5]

Father time having the hardest time catching Lebron. After a slower than usual start Lebron has 3 straight triple-dubs, has 2nd best player rating in NBA behind Joker. Now that JJ has him running the pt & DLo to the bench the Lakers look like title contenders.

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I wouldn't say they are title contenders yet but arrow pointing up

 

[raulduke_007]

I wouldn't say they are title contenders yet but arrow pointing up

The West is loaded not much seperates 1-10. Having said that with AD playing at a high level, Lebron back where he belongs at the point, Reeves becoming more of a professional scorer. Rui is solid. Kneckt off the bench with Hayes, Dlo gives them a better 2nd unit and when Vanderbilt comes back (if he can stay healthy) their defense is going to improve.

 

[Golson5]

The West is loaded not much seperates 1-10. Having said that with AD playing at a high level, Lebron back where he belongs at the point, Reeves becoming more of a professional scorer. Rui is solid. Kneckt off the bench with Hayes, Dlo gives them a better 2nd unit and when Vanderbilt comes back (if he can stay healthy) their defense is going to improve.

Trade DLo. They still haven't gotten a big man for defense to guard Jokic. 2 years and they haven't addressed that.

I think they are still a piece or 2 away but hopefully I'm wrong

Still need a pure shooter to stretch the floor

 

[savvyandsassier]

Father time having the hardest time catching Lebron. After a slower than usual start Lebron has 3 straight triple-dubs, has 2nd best player rating in NBA behind Joker. Now that JJ has him running the pt & DLo to the bench the Lakers look like title contenders.

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That is true, Lebron James is having a better twilight of his career. Jordan clearly did not care at that point, and was ready to hang it up. He was gaining some weight, he just wasn't into it anymore. And Lebron, good millennial that he is, is an efficient little achiever. I don't know what his routine is, but I'm assuming he has some staff of professionals that keep him great shape, utilizing all the latest sports science!

You don't really want that to be one of your leading arguments, that Lebron is better at 40 than Jordan was at 40. At best a little throw in if you're hard-up for talking points. You're much more concerned with how good they were from like, age 22 to 30. Years one through ten, that sort of thing.

 

[raulduke_007]

That is true, Lebron James is having a better twilight of his career. Jordan clearly did not care at that point, and was ready to hang it up. He was gaining some weight, he just wasn't into it anymore. And Lebron, good millennial that he is, is an efficient little achiever. I don't know what his routine is, but I'm assuming he has some staff of professionals that keep him great shape, utilizing all the latest sports science!

You don't really want that to be one of your leading arguments, that Lebron is better at 40 than Jordan was at 40. At best a little throw in if you're hard-up for talking points. You're much more concerned with how good they were from like, age 22 to 30. Years one through ten, that sort of thing.

There is a difference between playing at 40 and being a ceremonial player vs still being one of the best in the league. Never been done in the NBA. Lebron also setting up to be the only player in the history of sports to be on 3 all-decade teams. 00's 10's 20's.

 

[raulduke_007]

Trade DLo. They still haven't gotten a big man for defense to guard Jokic. 2 years and they haven't addressed that.

I think they are still a piece or 2 away but hopefully I'm wrong

Still need a pure shooter to stretch the floor

Dlo for a player like Bruce Brown. 3 & D guy that knows his role & is a proven winner. I havent seen play much since he went to Toronto but he was a key role player for Denver when they won the title.