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Notre Dame After Brian Kelly

IrishInOntario

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Feb 21, 2009
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It's so easy for us as fans of Notre Dame to start threads on a random message board with headlines that read "Fire Kelly" or "This is ridiculous". While those may be genuine feelings at the time, a product of years of frustration, or simply a couple extra beverages, I think we can all agree that it serves as a great way to vent your frustration in an appropriate setting and manner.

With that said, I'm turning the page on yesterday and as someone who has spent his entire life around the game, both as a player and a coach, I'm always looking at the changes I would make if I were Notre Dame, to try to better the program. I'm not saying that I'm right, but every great idea and terrible idea starts as someone's opinion.

First of all, ND fans need to be realistic about the coach ND can lure to South Bend and we have to understand who a good fit would be vs simply a name. We have to understand the restrictions Notre Dame places on itself, the type of student athletes ND can lure to South Bend, the history of the person who they are about to hire and the comfort level that person would have coaching in a place like South Bend, where admittedly, things are a little bit different.

My next head coach is Greg Schiano, the current defensive coordinator and associate head coach at Ohio State. Schiano? Really...? Yep. And here is my argument as to why. First of all, Schiano is the right age (50 years old) and has the right amount of experience at both levels. We all know that an ND head coach has probably a 5-8 year life span, and Schiano is in the right age range to still be young at the end of his tenure, something I think is more important today than many people think. The ND coach is going to burn out. Age can't be a factor in that. Also, Schiano would take the job, something we have to consider. He's comfortable in the Midwest and Northeast and eager to prove that he can be a very good coach at a historic program. Urban Meyer hired him for a reason. He's a damn good coach. And he won't be stuck as someone's DC for long.

Secondly, Schiano built a program from nothing at Rutgers, to the point of respectability. People will look at his record alone and say "meh" but what they don't understand is that Rutgers is a complete graveyard for coaches and Schiano won almost every national coach of the year accolade in 2006 while at the helm in Piscataway. While he was a huge success at Rutgers, he also was humbled and learned a great deal when he was hired as the head coach of the Tampa Buccaneers in the NFL. Much like Pete Carroll, he was forced back to college football after learning how different the pro game was and has successfully transitioned back into college football after taking two years out of coaching and re-lighting the fire that drives coaches. He's now coaching under Urban Meyer and proving to be the same VERY GOOD coach he always has been.

Thirdly, I think it's important that ND hire a coach that has the right attitude and comes from the right mindset in terms of style and scheme. Schiano is both a players coach and a hardass. He's a Jersey guy, with that brash mentality and toughness to him, but his players have also loved him along the way. That's the perfect fit for ND, IMO. Very much like Lou was. Edgy. Takes no shit from anyone, but also supports his players 100% and coaches a swagger and an energy into them. He convinced a bunch of castoffs at Rutgers that they could hang with the big boys, and they did. We've also already seen what a Schiano team looks like. He's a defensive coach, and the team will be built with a background in defense and toughness. At Notre Dame, you must start with playing great defense first. ND coaches have proven that it's fairly easy to land quality offensive talent at Notre Dame, but special attention must be paid to the defense. That won't be an issue with Schiano, whose entire background, CFB and NFL, has been on the defensive side of the ball and that continues to be the case right now at Ohio State. Offensively, he wants to run the ball and play smash mouth football. Remember Brian Leonard and Ray Rice at Rutgers? That's what he's looking for. Obviously, 10 years later, the scheme may look a little bit different, but that's his mentality. A mentality that fits Notre Dame and one that Notre Dame can recruit to on both sides of the ball.

Speaking of recruiting, Schiano is a great recruiter. He's been successful in finding diamonds-in-the-rough, something he had to do a great deal at Rutgers, and he's also a huge part of the historically good recruiting class Ohio State is assembling this year. More importantly, his recruiting ties exist in the regions that Notre Dame traditionally recruits well and must continue to recruit well. At Rutgers he recruited the Atlantic North East, right down the coast, through the Carolinas and into Florida. At Ohio State he's recruiting the Mid West as well. Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, South Carolina, North Carolina, Florida, Georgia, Virginia etc, etc... With the ACC ties those are the states ND will continue to recruit well and that's fine. There is a ton of talent emerging in those states. Schiano knows that recruiting map and will continue the success that Brian Kelly started in those areas.

As for his staff, I'm not going to speculate as who he should bring in (save one person), but I'll tell you who he should keep. First of all, I love Mike Denbrock. Always have. I think he's the best WR coach in the country. But I think it's time for Denbrock to move on with Brian Kelly. He'll get a good job somewhere else and deservedly so. If I'm Greg Schiano, I keep Mike Sanford, make him the associate head coach, offensive coordinator and lone playcaller and get him a nice raise. Why? Two reasons. Mike Sanford is a young star in coaching and is probably a few years away from getting his own gig, but would make a great OC at Notre Dame, if he's not impeded by the other minds in the room. Sanford's offensive mindset comes from the same place as Schianos. He wants to run the damn football. Look at his background at Boise State and with Chris Peterson. Very similar to Schianos. They will pass vertically, but the foundation of the offense will be physically running the football. Also, Sanford is a very good young recruiter and his ties are to the West Coast, a place Schiano has little experience recruiting. ND will always pull kids from that region and it's important they have a good recruiter out there. Sanford is an obvious "keep" if he wants to stay and I think he'd be a damn good OC / QB Coach. The other two guys on offense I would keep are Harry Hiestand and Autry Denson. Hiestand is among the best OL coaches in the game, produces top talent and successfully recruits and develops great OL. I don't think ND's OL are soft, I think their scheme is soft. I put that on Kelly and Denbrock, not Hiestand. I'd give him a chance to stay if he wants to. I think he'll prove to be a valuable asset. In Denson's case, he's your Florida recruiter and an ND grad. He did an awesome job with his running backs last year, and I'm having a hard time blaming him for ND's RB's this year. The scheme is not giving them a chance to run the ball. That's not on the RB coach, people make decisions over his head. I'd also be interested in the idea of interviewing Mike Elston and Todd Lyght. Elston has done a GREAT job in his short term as the recruiting coordinator and he would help the recruiting transition a great deal from the Kelly staff to the Schiano staff. I think his attention to detail would also make him a really good special teams coordinator. I'd give him an opportunity to do both, unless he has an obvious better candidate in mind. Elston needs to branch out from under Kelly if he's ever going to further his coaching career. He's a hard worker and a likeable coach, but he needs more perspective and a new challenge. Special teams coordinator / recruiting coordinator would give him more responsibility and a pay raise and would keep recruiting on track and likely would keep most of the class together. In Lyght's case, this one would depend on Schiano's perspective. Lyght has done it all in his career relative to playing and is an ND graduate and a developing recruiter. Schiano, however, cut his teeth as a DB coach and knows how to coach excellent and develop excellent defensive backs. I don't think he'd have any problem interviewing Lyght and quickly understanding if he has what Schiano is looking for in a DB coach. I'm not giving Lyght a complete pass for this year, but when we found out just how little he was allowed to do under BVG, I'm curious as to what he could accomplish with more autonomy... Therefore, I'd keep Sanford, Hiestand, Denson and Elston and interview Lyght. I'd let go of Kelly, Denbrock (sadly), Longo, Booker and Gilmore. Schiano will bring in his own DL coach (and secondary coach depending on Lyght) and he'd need a new WR and TE coach.

That leaves the Defensive Coordinator position. The guy I'd go get is another East Coast guy in Mike Elko at Wake Forest. Mike went to Penn, has coached linebackers and coordinated defenses and also was the DC at Bowling Green under Dave Clawson, before the two left for Wake Forest. Another solid recruiter, with ties to the East Coast, an area Schiano is already familiar with. Elko, along with Elston, would to a dynamic job of recruiting The Carolinas, Virginia, Maryland, etc, etc. Notre Dame could easily double Elko's salary and get him away from Wake Forest... Oh yeah, he's a damn good defensive coordinator too.

Those coaching moves, IMO, would keep the young, hungry, quality coaches at Notre Dame, while keeping recruiting intact and some continuity on the staff, but would also create massive shakeups in areas of need and bring fresh energy to a program desperately in need of it.

Continued...
 
Finally, this is a long shot, but I'm going to go ahead and say it. If I were Schiano, Swarbrick and Notre Dame, I'd broker the following deal. I would allow Schiano to bring in 3 kids each year that don't meet the academic requirements or the language requirements of the rest of the class. When I was the recruiting coordinator at a University, this is how it worked. We were allowed to bring in 3 kids each year as "special students", under the following stipulations. They were provided and mandated to participate in extra tutoring. Their grades were monitored through their freshman season, after every assignment, in every class, rather than 6 times per year (twice per semester) like the rest of the student athletes. We were extremely successful in retaining these "unqualified" students because we paid special attention to them, and strategically picked the right kids in the recruiting process, who may be under qualified, but through our due diligence, knew they were capable. A few times we even held some of them out for spring practice when they were falling behind and in place of practice, those 3 hour periods when we were on the field, they spent extra time glued to their tutors in study hall. In three years, we lost only 1 of 9 "special students" we brought in to academic casualty, and he was a kid that flat out came into the office one day and said "I don't want to do it anymore guys. I hate school." The rest of them graduated and a few of them actually became really solid students as upper classmen, once they were in the program and had a routine. If I'm the administration I would allow Schiano to have 12 of these kids in his program (3 per year) and I'd tell him that it was 4 year experiment. If 10 of the 12 didn't graduate (unless it's because they left early for the NFL) that the program would be scrapped. If you don't allow the guy a little leeway and an opportunity to prove it can work, however, you aren't allowing him to participate on an equal playing field as other coaches. At least if 12 of his 85 scholarship players can get in under special circumstances, he has a chance... I've seen it work. I've literally helped spearhead it. Some of those kids were our best players and like I said, 8 of the 9 while I was there, either graduated, or are on track to graduate right now.

That's my idea guys. Lets have a productive conversation. What do y'all think!?
 
Be careful with Schiano. Not getting into how he behaved at Tampa Bay. Even at Rutgers despite the success on the field he had the reputation of not always being honest. Even in his stops as an assistant

All that said what drives me nuts are these people who say things like pay Urban Meyer 10 million a year. Things like that don't always work. Never mind what would need to be paid to Kelly if he is canned
 
John Boehnor?

Schiano had problems ar RU; on and off the field: I doubt he is a serious candidate for a place such as ND.
 
Be careful with Schiano. Not getting into how he behaved at Tampa Bay. Even at Rutgers despite the success on the field he had the reputation of not always being honest. Even in his stops as an assistant

All that said what drives me nuts are these people who say things like pay Urban Meyer 10 million a year. Things like that don't always work. Never mind what would need to be paid to Kelly if he is canned

Honesty is complete overrated in the college football world. Urban Meyer has been a snake his whole career. But he's damn good. Nick Saban is one of the biggest assholes in college football. But he's a winner. Jim Harbaugh may actually be insane. But Michigan is back.

ND needs to drop the attitude that they are "better" than other people. I'm not saying that I want someone to be a cheater, but you have to let the guy coach on the "edge".
 
John Boehnor?

Schiano had problems ar RU; on and off the field: I doubt he is a serious candidate for a place such as ND.

I'm aware of them. I don't much care. As long as the NCAA isn't banging down the door, he's a good candidate. Keep his leash short and pay attention to what he is doing, but don't pass on a good coach and a good fit, because of a little baggage. If only people outside of the coaching world could see just how much every coach "cheats" and what he "gets away with" on a daily basis, they could only laugh...
 
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I like it personally. I have a question for you. I heard Mike Golic say on Mike & Mike that he did not know any foreign language. How did he get into ND?

There is a current foreign language requirement at ND. Whether than existed at that time, or not, I'm not sure. Also, the requirement is that you have the credit(s), not that you know the language. Huge difference.
 
Please, no more guys from New Jersey. Had enough. Arrogant, condescending, over bearing, and that's just starting, trying to be civil. And look, I didn't even need to write a novelette to make a point.
 
Please, no more guys from New Jersey. Had enough. Arrogant, condescending, over bearing, and that's just starting, trying to be civil. And look, I didn't even need to write a novelette to make a point.

what charm school did you go to; maybe that should be a requirement
 
Great read IIO -- thanks for your contributions to this forum -- I'm an enthusiastic student of football/notre dame/etc. and always learn something new after reading your posts.
 
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Please, no more guys from New Jersey. Had enough. Arrogant, condescending, over bearing, and that's just starting, trying to be civil. And look, I didn't even need to write a novelette to make a point.

What I find funny is that everyone loves a winner, but ignores the fact that nearly every great coach is a dick.. Brian Kelly is an angel to talk to compared to some of these guys.

You ever watch an Urban Meyer or Nick Saban press conference. Arrogance, condescension, and vitriol is just the beginning. They are Alpha personalities. They don't take shit from people they feel are "below" them. They command respect, and they get it.

Do you guys forget how much of a brash ass Lou Holtz was before he became a "happy" old man?... Why have we become so friggen soft?
 
Great read IIO -- thanks for your contributions to this forum -- I'm an enthusiastic student of football/notre dame/etc. and always learn something new after reading your posts.

Anyway, I understand that Kiffin is the butt of a lot of ND fans jokes, but I believe he's the best available coach who has the most upside as a potential coaching candidate at ND. He also has a ton of down side as well given his history of bailing when things get tough, getting fired, etc. But with great risk comes great reward.

Here are my reasons for Kiffin:

1. Has recruited exceptionally everywhere he has coached. Relates well with young players. Loves to recruit -- Orgeron and Tosh Lupoi (two best recruiting coordinators in the game) will likely be apart of his next staff.

2. Has been the offensive coordinator on two separate national championship winning programs under two of the best coaches in football.

3. Has the type of edge that attracts ESPN headlines (like Harbaugh) -- which will re energize the program and attract the best prep stars from around the country.

4. Has seemingly matured in recent years after his various failed coaching stops. Everybody learns from their failures. No coordinator has done more to raise his coaching stock in recent years.

5. Rumored to be on any traditional power P5 programs shortlist.

6. Runs a pro style offense that would match up well with the type of talent ND recruits well (big offensive linemen, running game, tight end heavily involved, pro style QB, play action, etc.)

Again, I realize Kiffin is a bad joke among ND fans, but I don't see another coaching candidate outside of Meyer & Saban with Kiffin's upside. He will recruit the absolute best athletes in the country successfully no doubt about it. And I believe he's learned a lot under Saban and has matured with more experience, age, and confidence from recent successes at Alabama.

I understand where you are coming from Chase. I think that Lane Kiffin will be a successful coach in the future and I've thought that for a while. I think the best thing that ever happened to him was that he was humbled by his early success, then demise and he's reforging himself under Nick Saban's tutelage at Alabama. Down the road, I expect him to do a darn good job somewhere and be an excellent recruiter as well.

With that said, I don't love him as a coach at ND. I don't like his USC ties and how that translates to ND. I also would prefer a head coach from a defensive background. I think that at Notre Dame, it starts with playing good defense. I would rather a guy with a background in defense like Miles or Schiano, because you can manufacture offense at ND. We've seen that.

Appreciate your input though. Like you, I think Kiffin will be a good coach the second time around and somebody is going to get a good hire!
 
I understand where you are coming from Chase. I think that Lane Kiffin will be a successful coach in the future and I've thought that for a while. I think the best thing that ever happened to him was that he was humbled by his early success, then demise and he's reforging himself under Nick Saban's tutelage at Alabama. Down the road, I expect him to do a darn good job somewhere and be an excellent recruiter as well.

With that said, I don't love him as a coach at ND. I don't like his USC ties and how that translates to ND. I also would prefer a head coach from a defensive background. I think that at Notre Dame, it starts with playing good defense. I would rather a guy with a background in defense like Miles or Schiano, because you can manufacture offense at ND. We've seen that.

Appreciate your input though. Like you, I think Kiffin will be a good coach the second time around and somebody is going to get a good hire!

Good post - I created a separate thread as I didn't want to high jack the discussion regarding schiano.
 
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Good post - I created a separate thread as I didn't want to high jack the discussion regarding schiano.

Kind of a crazy idea, but along the same lines of your thinking. Bob Diaco + Mike Sanford as OC and associate head coach would check a lot of boxes that ND is looking for... It would be young and bold, but Diaco knows the deal at ND, clearly understands good defense at ND and whether or not he personally is a great recruiter is irrelevant, kids seem to respect his weird personality... And they play for him.
 
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Let's face it, ND is done competing for championships. This is because the people who run the school don't want to be a "football factory". This is the 4th coach since Holtz. It been the same thing over and over. The facts are these. ND cannot get elite talent. That is a fact. Disagree all you want. Eltite talented players do not lose to Duke, Navy, Tulsa or any other low level program. ND seems to lose to those schools regularly. Kelly is a good coach. He is getting some talent here and there but not enough to really compete. So this charade of playing for championships needs to stop. ND lost to Duke because they are on the same level as a Duke. Lou Holtz was able to get players that they won't allow in anymore. Don't believe me? Go look at those games and the players. Those teams were stacked 3 deep at every position. The amount of and quality of talent then campared to now us night and day. ND hasn't been great since then and there is a reason. They don't get those kind of players anymore. Why do you think Urban Meyer didn't want to coach at ND, his supposed dream job. Because he knew he would not be allowed to bring in players he needed to really compete for championships. It's that simple. Nothing will ever change for the football program until those in charge change their attitude toward it.
 
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It is apparent to me after reading these posts that a "great" idea may also be "terrible" Two observations, one, Schiano is a slime ball, and two Diaco is a Space Cadet!
 
Let's face it, ND is done competing for championships. This is because the people who run the school don't want to be a "football factory". This is the 4th coach since Holtz. It been the same thing over and over. The facts are these. ND cannot get elite talent. That is a fact. Disagree all you want. Eltite talented players do not lose to Duke, Navy, Tulsa or any other low level program. ND seems to lose to those schools regularly. Kelly is a good coach. He is getting some talent here and there but not enough to really compete. So this charade of playing for championships needs to stop. ND lost to Duke because they are on the same level as a Duke. Lou Holtz was able to get players that they won't allow in anymore. Don't believe me? Go look at those games and the players. Those teams were stacked 3 deep at every position. The amount of and quality of talent then campared to now us night and day. ND hasn't been great since then and there is a reason. They don't get those kind of players anymore. Why do you think Urban Meyer didn't want to coach at ND, his supposed dream job. Because he knew he would not be allowed to bring in players he needed to really compete for championships. It's that simple. Nothing will ever change for the football program until those in charge change their attitude toward it.

Don't disagree with much of what you are saying, but I also think that there is a lot more perspective to have here... Can Notre Dame routinely recruit with Ohio State and Alabama anymore. No they cannot. The reasons for that have been explained to death on this site. However, which team has won the most games over the past 5 years out of the following schools? Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Michigan State?... That's right, Mark Dantonio at Michigan State won more games coming into this year than the staffs at those other schools. He also took his team to the playoffs, and beat Urban Meyer and Ohio State along the way... Meanwhile, coming into this year, Brian Kelly was 3-1 against Dantonio, with the only loss coming on a fake field on the last play of the game, when ND's safety fell down. He easily could and should have been 4-0.

What am I getting at. While Notre Dame can't recruit with Alabama, there is no way that you are ever going to convince me that they can't recruit with Michigan State. The same can be said of Oklahoma, where Bob Stoops has also won a championship and kept his team very competitive... In fact, I posted in a thread yesterday talking about composite recruiting rankings and the facts are the Brian Kelly has outrecruited both Stoops and Dantonio over the past few years, but better development and retention of players have happened in those programs.

People on this board love Lou Holtz... But he won exactly one Natty at ND. He was a great coach, but he won ONE title. The same number Stoops has won at Oklahoma. Not everyone can be Alabama, and Notre Dame isn't going to be... That doesn't, however, mean that Notre Dame has to be average like Duke is, under the right coach. There is no reason Notre Dame (who already out recruits Michigan State) can't win like Michigan State. There is no reason that ND can't win 10'ish games every year, make the playoffs every 3 years, play for a title every 5-7 and have a down year be 8-4 or 9-3... Kelly has brought ND a long way, they just need somebody to finish the job he started. They need a toughness, an energy, a swagger and defiance about them. Shaw has built it at Stanford. Dantonio has built it at Michigan State... And Notre Dame out recruits and has more resources than either of those schools, by a substantial amount.

I don't buy the idea that ND can't perform like a top 10 program most years. Top 1-2... Probably not. But Stanford, Oklahoma, Michigan State, Oregon etc, etc, are more than possible.
 
Thanks for the detail and depth of thought....I would think the sheer number of assistants you aspire to retain is unrealistic...and lends credence to retaining Kelly. There would be too many divided loyalties with those numbers under a new head coach. Not gonna happen. Personally, I think Schiano needs another gig elsewhere before going for broke...say, Purdue or of that ilk.

I would prefer guys who are at or are where Kelly was. He was well-positioned after Cincinatti..and he had everything needed to be successful..except he can't adapt. He wants Notre Dame to conform to him....and it cannot in terms of competition with his philosophy. Others are both well-positioned and can adapt, such as a Tom Herman or a PJ Fleck....preferably Herman. Some might say Notre Dame would repeat the same kind of experiment...but I believe an up and comer with proven success can succeed and would take the Notre Dame job. I also disagree with you that Schiano would accept the Notre Dame gig. Thats not a given...just a prediction.
 
Finally, this is a long shot, but I'm going to go ahead and say it. If I were Schiano, Swarbrick and Notre Dame, I'd broker the following deal. I would allow Schiano to bring in 3 kids each year that don't meet the academic requirements or the language requirements of the rest of the class. When I was the recruiting coordinator at a University, this is how it worked. We were allowed to bring in 3 kids each year as "special students", under the following stipulations. They were provided and mandated to participate in extra tutoring. Their grades were monitored through their freshman season, after every assignment, in every class, rather than 6 times per year (twice per semester) like the rest of the student athletes. We were extremely successful in retaining these "unqualified" students because we paid special attention to them, and strategically picked the right kids in the recruiting process, who may be under qualified, but through our due diligence, knew they were capable. A few times we even held some of them out for spring practice when they were falling behind and in place of practice, those 3 hour periods when we were on the field, they spent extra time glued to their tutors in study hall. In three years, we lost only 1 of 9 "special students" we brought in to academic casualty, and he was a kid that flat out came into the office one day and said "I don't want to do it anymore guys. I hate school." The rest of them graduated and a few of them actually became really solid students as upper classmen, once they were in the program and had a routine. If I'm the administration I would allow Schiano to have 12 of these kids in his program (3 per year) and I'd tell him that it was 4 year experiment. If 10 of the 12 didn't graduate (unless it's because they left early for the NFL) that the program would be scrapped. If you don't allow the guy a little leeway and an opportunity to prove it can work, however, you aren't allowing him to participate on an equal playing field as other coaches. At least if 12 of his 85 scholarship players can get in under special circumstances, he has a chance... I've seen it work. I've literally helped spearhead it. Some of those kids were our best players and like I said, 8 of the 9 while I was there, either graduated, or are on track to graduate right now.

That's my idea guys. Lets have a productive conversation. What do y'all think!?
The last time we had allowed "special students" into ND was under Lou Holtz. They were Proposition 48 students. Including Tony Rice, Chris Zorich, and John Foley. They were all Americans, and did ok in school also. Last I checked Zorich was an attorney.
 
It is apparent to me after reading these posts that a "great" idea may also be "terrible" Two observations, one, Schiano is a slime ball, and two Diaco is a Space Cadet!

No slimier than Saban or Meyer. Harbaugh, the sleepover king, still has the jury out on him. Probably less slimy than a guy like Petrino.. It comes down to a question of winning. Mark Richt would have the "character" ND wanted, but he's not leaving Miami... Here is a challenge for you. Find me the last coach to win a national title, who wasn't considered a cheater or a slime ball?... Would it maybe be Mack Brown at Texas, 11 years ago? There was Auburn, whose coach was fired two years later because Cam Newton (the computer thief, who was kicked out of Florida of all places) graduated and his cash cow left the building.

Gael, more me it comes down to winning and graduating your players. I don't care what the outside perception of the ND HBC is, as long as his kids graduate and he wins a lot of games.
 
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Thanks for the detail and depth of thought....I would think the sheer number of assistants you aspire to retain is unrealistic...and lends credence to retaining Kelly. There would be too many divided loyalties with those numbers under a new head coach. Not gonna happen. Personally, I think Schiano needs another gig elsewhere before going for broke...say, Purdue or of that ilk.

I would prefer guys who are at or are where Kelly was. He was well-positioned after Cincinatti..and he had everything needed to be successful..except he can't adapt. He wants Notre Dame to conform to him....and it cannot in terms of competition with his philosophy. Others are both well-positioned and can adapt, such as a Tom Herman or a PJ Fleck....preferably Herman. Some might say Notre Dame would repeat the same kind of experiment...but I believe an up and comer with proven success can succeed and would take the Notre Dame job. I also disagree with you that Schiano would accept the Notre Dame gig. Thats not a given...just a prediction.

Hey if you can get Tom Herman to Notre Dame, all the power to you my friend, but I'll gladly bet you it never happens. We're talking about Notre Dame. It doesn't pay its coaches top dollar. With the vacancies open this year, do you think ND will compete with any of them for Herman? Texas reportedly offered Saban 10+ million a year to year Alabama. That means they'll probably offer Herman at least 6 or 7 million... For a better, easier job than Notre Dame. Would Notre Dame pay more than that to win a bidding war? With the campus crossroads project underway and them having to pay Kelly to leave? Of course they won't. We both know that.

I'd take Herman in a second, but I'm trying to be realistic about who is a good coach, that ND can actually get...

Also, people keep missing a link on P.J. Fleck. They keep saying he's the next Urban Meyer. While he may be, this is what they are missing. Fleck is 35 years old. Urban Meyer didn't got from Bowling Green, as a young coach, to Florida... He had to prove he was a good coach at P5 program first. That's why he went to Utah. Same can be said of Brian Kelly. He didn't go from Central Michigan to Notre Dame, he had to win at Cinci first. Nick Saban, same thing. Michigan State before LSU... There are stepping stones in coaching. I highly doubt Jack Swarbrick is going to hire a 35 year old HC, who hasn't proven a damn thing at at P5 school.
 
Hey if you can get Tom Herman to Notre Dame, all the power to you my friend, but I'll gladly bet you it never happens. We're talking about Notre Dame. It doesn't pay its coaches top dollar. With the vacancies open this year, do you think ND will compete with any of them for Herman? Texas reportedly offered Saban 10+ million a year to year Alabama. That means they'll probably offer Herman at least 6 or 7 million... For a better, easier job than Notre Dame. Would Notre Dame pay more than that to win a bidding war? With the campus crossroads project underway and them having to pay Kelly to leave? Of course they won't. We both know that.

I'd take Herman in a second, but I'm trying to be realistic about who is a good coach, that ND can actually get...

Also, people keep missing a link on P.J. Fleck. They keep saying he's the next Urban Meyer. While he may be, this is what they are missing. Fleck is 35 years old. Urban Meyer didn't got from Bowling Green, as a young coach, to Florida... He had to prove he was a good coach at P5 program first. That's why he went to Utah. Same can be said of Brian Kelly. He didn't go from Central Michigan to Notre Dame, he had to win at Cinci first. Nick Saban, same thing. Michigan State before LSU... There are stepping stones in coaching. I highly doubt Jack Swarbrick is going to hire a 35 year old HC, who hasn't proven a damn thing at at P5 school.
that cuts both ways.....Notre Dame did hire Ty Willingham from Stanford...who then ended up at Washington only to be fired again. So lateral hires aren't necessarily practical either. Then there's the fanfare NFL hire...been there, done that too. The right hire doesn't really happen that often....but at the same time...the status quo is woefully costly.
 
Kind of a crazy idea, but along the same lines of your thinking. Bob Diaco + Mike Sanford as OC and associate head coach would check a lot of boxes that ND is looking for... It would be young and bold, but Diaco knows the deal at ND, clearly understands good defense at ND and whether or not he personally is a great recruiter is irrelevant, kids seem to respect his weird personality... And they play for him.
Careful now .. Diaco is from Jersey also. Hell i am from NJ and I could run with either Schiano or Diaco. Both would be better than what we got now. IIO, great post BTW.
 
Don't disagree with much of what you are saying, but I also think that there is a lot more perspective to have here... Can Notre Dame routinely recruit with Ohio State and Alabama anymore. No they cannot. The reasons for that have been explained to death on this site. However, which team has won the most games over the past 5 years out of the following schools? Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Michigan State?... That's right, Mark Dantonio at Michigan State won more games coming into this year than the staffs at those other schools. He also took his team to the playoffs, and beat Urban Meyer and Ohio State along the way... Meanwhile, coming into this year, Brian Kelly was 3-1 against Dantonio, with the only loss coming on a fake field on the last play of the game, when ND's safety fell down. He easily could and should have been 4-0.

What am I getting at. While Notre Dame can't recruit with Alabama, there is no way that you are ever going to convince me that they can't recruit with Michigan State. The same can be said of Oklahoma, where Bob Stoops has also won a championship and kept his team very competitive... In fact, I posted in a thread yesterday talking about composite recruiting rankings and the facts are the Brian Kelly has outrecruited both Stoops and Dantonio over the past few years, but better development and retention of players have happened in those programs.

People on this board love Lou Holtz... But he won exactly one Natty at ND. He was a great coach, but he won ONE title. The same number Stoops has won at Oklahoma. Not everyone can be Alabama, and Notre Dame isn't going to be... That doesn't, however, mean that Notre Dame has to be average like Duke is, under the right coach. There is no reason Notre Dame (who already out recruits Michigan State) can't win like Michigan State. There is no reason that ND can't win 10'ish games every year, make the playoffs every 3 years, play for a title every 5-7 and have a down year be 8-4 or 9-3... Kelly has brought ND a long way, they just need somebody to finish the job he started. They need a toughness, an energy, a swagger and defiance about them. Shaw has built it at Stanford. Dantonio has built it at Michigan State... And Notre Dame out recruits and has more resources than either of those schools, by a substantial amount.

I don't buy the idea that ND can't perform like a top 10 program most years. Top 1-2... Probably not. But Stanford, Oklahoma, Michigan State, Oregon etc, etc, are more than possible.

Agreed on all points. I have stated in other posts that I do believe Kelly is a good coach. I also think the spread offense is the wrong fit for the players they can get. As you have stated, MSU and Stanford are the style of football ND needs to be competitive year after year. I'm not going into detail but basically a more physical style is needed. Holtz won one championship. He just missed out on a second. The Irish at the very least should have split with FSU in 1993. Had James Jackson who ended up at Miami and Randy Moss been allowed to enroll, who knows what 1995 and 96 would have been like. but at that point Fr Malloy wanted a new direction for the football program and school. Holtz was not getting the "elite" players anymore because the administration clamped down on the program. Holtz was shown the door shortly there after. Kelly has had a little more leeway, but in doing so some players had academic issues which clearly affected the program.

Look ND has to decide what it wants to be as a football program. Again I do not think a new coach will matter unless the administration allows players in that maybe be borderline academically. Kelly has done a better job than those before him. But I'm not convinced Schiano, Meyer or Saban for that matter would do much better considering the type of players they are currently getting. I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong. So I will hope I am and that keeps me coming back every Saturday. You see I I have been a fan my whole life and never miss a game. Before they were on tv every week, I would listen on the radio with my dad and brother then watch the highlights every Sunday morning. So as disappointed as I am, I hope one day they can turn it around. If they did get Schiano as you suggest I would be his biggest supporter. I guess we just have to see. Anyway I like your insight. You have a perspective that I don't have, so keep the posts coming.
 
Hey if you can get Tom Herman to Notre Dame, all the power to you my friend, but I'll gladly bet you it never happens. We're talking about Notre Dame. It doesn't pay its coaches top dollar. With the vacancies open this year, do you think ND will compete with any of them for Herman? Texas reportedly offered Saban 10+ million a year to year Alabama. That means they'll probably offer Herman at least 6 or 7 million... For a better, easier job than Notre Dame. Would Notre Dame pay more than that to win a bidding war? With the campus crossroads project underway and them having to pay Kelly to leave? Of course they won't. We both know that.

I'd take Herman in a second, but I'm trying to be realistic about who is a good coach, that ND can actually get...

Also, people keep missing a link on P.J. Fleck. They keep saying he's the next Urban Meyer. While he may be, this is what they are missing. Fleck is 35 years old. Urban Meyer didn't got from Bowling Green, as a young coach, to Florida... He had to prove he was a good coach at P5 program first. That's why he went to Utah. Same can be said of Brian Kelly. He didn't go from Central Michigan to Notre Dame, he had to win at Cinci first. Nick Saban, same thing. Michigan State before LSU... There are stepping stones in coaching. I highly doubt Jack Swarbrick is going to hire a 35 year old HC, who hasn't proven a damn thing at at P5 school.
Look at your words, there, IIO..."I'd take Herman in a second".....Wouldn't Swarbrick? Maybe not...but he's got to be testing the waters already....Due diligence is slow and methodical at this level...at least it should be.
 
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No slimier than Saban or Meyer. Harbaugh, the sleepover king, still has the jury out on him. Probably less slimy than a guy like Petrino.. It comes down to a question of winning. Mark Richt would have the "character" ND wanted, but he's not leaving Miami... Here is a challenge for you. Find me the last coach to win a national title, who wasn't considered a cheater or a slime ball?... Would it maybe be Mack Brown at Texas, 11 years ago? There was Auburn, whose coach was fired two years later because Cam Newton (the computer thief, who was kicked out of Florida of all places) graduated and his cash cow left the building.

Gael, more me it comes down to winning and graduating your players. I don't care what the outside perception of the ND HBC is, as long as his kids graduate and he wins a lot of games.
The problem is the outside perception drives long term success in recruiting , endowments ,prestige and value of the degree.Not that these are the only drivers but certainly should guide the decision makers as a compass with a true north. this is particularly true of a Catholic institution. Our Alma Mater was one at one time now it's another function of provincial government. If you look for Fr. Stanton's statue it's hidden behind bushes at the side of the front steps of Tabaret Hall. By the way the coaches you mention present a pretty low ethical and moral bar .Think of what Ara said he was told upon being hired by Fr.Hesburgh.
 
IIO, thanks for your thoughts and rationale for same. Don't know if Shiano is the best choice for ND or not, but I do agree with the criteria you laid out for making this selection. As for current staff, I love the idea of the HC being a tough ass defensive minded coach, and retaining and promoting Sanford as suggested. We all "think" Sanford is a talented OC who has all the attributes to be a very successful HC someday, and yet none of us has a clue as to what impact he has had on the offense under Kelly. Time to find out if he is as talented as we all seem to think, and promoting him to Assoc HC and empowering him as the OC will do just that.

Totally ambivalent about Harry and would appreciate your thoughts and from others as well. I do appreciate that we are relatively inexperienced on the OL in terms of position assignment and playing together, and I appreciate that coordination and communication and familiarity with each other are critical to good offensive line play. That said, I feel the OL has been a major disappointment all season, and not sure how much this reflects our schizophrenic play calling or OL coaching or ???

I understand that making modifications to the admission process as you suggested would have a major positive affect on our ability to recruit, especially elite defensive linemen. I am not opposed to this, but think we can have a very successful top ten program without making these concessions, IF, ND would make it easier for the players to meet their academic responsibilities. For example, would love to see players allowed to take a lighter academic load during the season provided their early enrollment or summer classes keeps them on track to graduate in four years. Many others have posted several suggestions along this line. The point being that our players are very challenged to balance academic requirements with the demands of playing, and there are several changes that could be easily instituted that would help this without compromising academic standards. Hearing that Kizer had something like three mid terms to prepare for this past week and the challenge of balancing these demands with preparing for Stanford is case in point.

Lastly, the point you make about realistic expectations for the next coach cannot be overstated. There are very real negatives to the ND job, and good choices will be few and far between. Shiano is among these in my opinion.
 
Honesty is complete overrated in the college football world. Urban Meyer has been a snake his whole career. But he's damn good. Nick Saban is one of the biggest assholes in college football. But he's a winner. Jim Harbaugh may actually be insane. But Michigan is back.

ND needs to drop the attitude that they are "better" than other people. I'm not saying that I want someone to be a cheater, but you have to let the guy coach on the "edge".
Honesty is one thing. Even the ones who are known as the good guys have to pick their situations when they have to be tough which may mean not being honest. Some are worse than others.
 
Agreed on all points. I have stated in other posts that I do believe Kelly is a good coach. I also think the spread offense is the wrong fit for the players they can get. As you have stated, MSU and Stanford are the style of football ND needs to be competitive year after year. I'm not going into detail but basically a more physical style is needed. Holtz won one championship. He just missed out on a second. The Irish at the very least should have split with FSU in 1993. Had James Jackson who ended up at Miami and Randy Moss been allowed to enroll, who knows what 1995 and 96 would have been like. but at that point Fr Malloy wanted a new direction for the football program and school. Holtz was not getting the "elite" players anymore because the administration clamped down on the program. Holtz was shown the door shortly there after. Kelly has had a little more leeway, but in doing so some players had academic issues which clearly affected the program.

Look ND has to decide what it wants to be as a football program. Again I do not think a new coach will matter unless the administration allows players in that maybe be borderline academically. Kelly has done a better job than those before him. But I'm not convinced Schiano, Meyer or Saban for that matter would do much better considering the type of players they are currently getting. I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong. So I will hope I am and that keeps me coming back every Saturday. You see I I have been a fan my whole life and never miss a game. Before they were on tv every week, I would listen on the radio with my dad and brother then watch the highlights every Sunday morning. So as disappointed as I am, I hope one day they can turn it around. If they did get Schiano as you suggest I would be his biggest supporter. I guess we just have to see. Anyway I like your insight. You have a perspective that I don't have, so keep the posts coming.

Very good post. I think you have plenty of perspective. I think we're closer to agreement you may realize. My point is that Notre Dame CAN recruit enough talent to compete for title twice a decade and be a top 10'ish team nearly every year. Can they surpass a Alabama or Ohio State at this point, probably not. But they can do better than they are doing now. How much better? This season aside, realistically, probably only slightly better. But if a different coach wins you 1 extra game each year, you have to try to find that guy.

I think we would both agree that ND has a little bit more in them than Brian Kelly has gotten out of them. Do they have Alabama potential. No. But if the development of the players matched the recruiting Kelly has done, there would be better results. It's a simple principle. Kelly has far out recruited teams like Stanford and Michigan State. Yet they have been more successful during the same period because of better systems, identity and development... Despite all of that, Kelly has beaten David Shaw twice and Mark Dantonio 3 times, proving he has the athletes and talent to do it. What's missing is the attitude, the consistency and the swagger to do it every time... ND respects MSU and Stanford. Those teams hate Notre Dame... Which school brings more emotion and fire to those matchups each year?... That's why despite more talent (just watch the NFL draft) those teams have beat ND. The Irish needs a coach who can maximize the potential of his players and beat those teams into their respective places in college football. The Stanford kids bully the Notre Dame kids. ND needs a coach who can energize his kids and make them understand that they are bigger and better than the kids from Stanford and that they ought to punish pricks into submission... That's what Holtz did. He had no respect for other schools. He didn't give a shit who you were. He tore players down during the week, then built them up an made them feel disrespected on game day... His kids were mean. They were out to prove every week that Notre Dame is "better" than you. That's the link Kelly is missing. He's a good recruiter, he understands the game and if he could recruit a bunch of thugs, that have their own pride and swagger, he'd kick the crap out of people... But that's not Notre Dame. The kids that come to Notre Dame often need that fire lit under them, because community that is the school takes it out of them. They need a coach that keeps them on edge. Kelly does a lot of things well, but what he lacks is that edge and the ability to translate it to his players so they "hate" their opponent and want to punish them. That comes from the coach and the tone with which he coaches his program.
 
I think its deeper than that, IIO.. I think there's a lack of confidence and trust in his leadership. He is far too eager to deflect blame and responsibility for failure. That is a fatal flaw for a head coach. When he "blames" himself...it is disingenuous...and ultimately lands on others. He complicates the game beyond necessity....and instills doubt and timidity. He isn't well suited for this level of coaching.
 
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The problem is the outside perception drives long term success in recruiting , endowments ,prestige and value of the degree.Not that these are the only drivers but certainly should guide the decision makers as a compass with a true north. this is particularly true of a Catholic institution. Our Alma Mater was one at one time now it's another function of provincial government. If you look for Fr. Stanton's statue it's hidden behind bushes at the side of the front steps of Tabaret Hall. By the way the coaches you mention present a pretty low ethical and moral bar .Think of what Ara said he was told upon being hired by Fr.Hesburgh.

Don't disagree with anything you said Gael. However, when Ara was hired, ND essetially had pick of the litter (if not the rights to) the best football players in America. College football as whole was a lot "cleaner" back then, because there wasn't so much money in college football. Ara could win championships doing it the right way. Now the best you can hope for is a coach to do it the "right way" most of the time. That's why I think it's important to really look at what's important. If I'm Notre Dame, this is all I care about relative to my mission and the football program.

1. Is my graduation rate above 90% where nobody can question our mission? Who cares if you win the award for highest grad percentage every year?

2. Is the NCAA knocking on our door with allegations? If not, get out of the coach's way. The football program brings millions of dollars to the school that go to helping keep it a top notch, destination school.

3. Are we keeping the crime within the program to a manageable level? You cannot control 85 kids, 24 hours a day. As long as you aren't facing half a dozen legal issues each year (especially serious ones) who cares that some national writer may point out that ND has had a couple off field issues? Like any other school doesn't have WAY more than their fare share.

4. Are we winning? You play to win the game. That is all.

5. Is the program producing, for the most part, quality human beings?

If those 5 boxes are checked, who cares? You're a private school. Give everybody else the middle finger if they want to judge you. Notre Dame used to have swagger and mentality of elitism, built on success. Now it tries to appease everyone and anyone who may have a problem with how they do things. Excuse my language, but **** them. There is nothing wrong with doing things your own way, having your own mission, but making some concessions for success along the way... You can keep your mission intact, while adapting to what's necessary to win in 2016 and beyond.
 
Great thread .. a few reactions
1. With today's playoff system Holtz would have made playoffs at least 3 times
2. ND has always and will
Continue to allow admissions exceptions but they will never give that control to a coach. It's ultimately why Holtz walked away.
3. I really like idea of Schiano ... there are many quality head coaches that would come to ND and compete for playoffs. I think Schiano is one and Narduzzi is another I'd take a chance on.
4. Make no mistake about it - Brian Kelly is our HC next year. He's not getting fired for one horrible season. If 2017 is more of the same ND might move on.
 
Great thread .. a few reactions
1. With today's playoff system Holtz would have made playoffs at least 3 times
2. ND has always and will
Continue to allow admissions exceptions but they will never give that control to a coach. It's ultimately why Holtz walked away.
3. I really like idea of Schiano ... there are many quality head coaches that would come to ND and compete for playoffs. I think Schiano is one and Narduzzi is another I'd take a chance on.
4. Make no mistake about it - Brian Kelly is our HC next year. He's not getting fired for one horrible season. If 2017 is more of the same ND might move on.
I would be concerned that a couple a early losses next year...then Kelly mails it in....wasting an entire season.
 
Absolutely love it.
Completely agree with it all.
The key thing about the 3-4 exception recruits is that it shouldn't be advertised but 100% this needs to be done. I'm so sick of arguing with other ND fans about exception recruits. Urban didn't take the job because of this. He was right about his decision and the next coach has to demand it.
Schiano was constantly talking about chopping wood and pounding the rock. He wants to play hard nosed football
Your completely right in that we aren't going to get Urban or the highest level guy.
The next guy will be Schiano, Paul Chyst, Pat Narduzzi or Pat Fitzgerald range of coach.
All great candidates.
 
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Absolutely love it.
Completely agree with it all.
The key thing about the 3-4 exception recruits is that it shouldn't be advertised but 100% this needs to be done. I'm so sick of arguing with other ND fans about exception recruits. Urban didn't take the job because of this. He was right about his decision and the next coach has to demand it.
Schiano was constantly talking about chopping wood and pounding the rock. He wants to play hard nosed football
Your completely right in that we aren't going to get Urban or the highest level guy.
The next guy will be Schiano, Paul Chyst, Pat Narduzzi or Pat Fitzgerald range of coach.
All great candidates.
I'm good with any of those 4
 
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