Notre Dame After Brian Kelly

[IrishInOntario]

Are you a hardass that commands respect and breeds swagger and toughness?
Are you obsessed with recruiting almost to the point that it's a sickness?
Will defense be the bedrock of the program?
Will you commit to running the football as a staple component of your program?

 

[greengael]

I would be concerned that a couple a early losses next year...then Kelly mails it in....wasting an entire season.

You mean like this one?[smile] I was wondering that since Kelly was so bad was it intentional? That is, was he angling for a Charlie Weis buyout gig? Couldn't be .....Right?.......

 

[Java65]

I actually like it. Meets all of my requirements for a new HC.

 

[theskibro]

Finally, this is a long shot, but I'm going to go ahead and say it. If I were Schiano, Swarbrick and Notre Dame, I'd broker the following deal. I would allow Schiano to bring in 3 kids each year that don't meet the academic requirements or the language requirements of the rest of the class. When I was the recruiting coordinator at a University, this is how it worked. We were allowed to bring in 3 kids each year as "special students", under the following stipulations. They were provided and mandated to participate in extra tutoring. Their grades were monitored through their freshman season, after every assignment, in every class, rather than 6 times per year (twice per semester) like the rest of the student athletes. We were extremely successful in retaining these "unqualified" students because we paid special attention to them, and strategically picked the right kids in the recruiting process, who may be under qualified, but through our due diligence, knew they were capable. A few times we even held some of them out for spring practice when they were falling behind and in place of practice, those 3 hour periods when we were on the field, they spent extra time glued to their tutors in study hall. In three years, we lost only 1 of 9 "special students" we brought in to academic casualty, and he was a kid that flat out came into the office one day and said "I don't want to do it anymore guys. I hate school." The rest of them graduated and a few of them actually became really solid students as upper classmen, once they were in the program and had a routine. If I'm the administration I would allow Schiano to have 12 of these kids in his program (3 per year) and I'd tell him that it was 4 year experiment. If 10 of the 12 didn't graduate (unless it's because they left early for the NFL) that the program would be scrapped. If you don't allow the guy a little leeway and an opportunity to prove it can work, however, you aren't allowing him to participate on an equal playing field as other coaches. At least if 12 of his 85 scholarship players can get in under special circumstances, he has a chance... I've seen it work. I've literally helped spearhead it. Some of those kids were our best players and like I said, 8 of the 9 while I was there, either graduated, or are on track to graduate right now.

That's my idea guys. Lets have a productive conversation. What do y'all think!?

I think this is an excellent post. I am all in. How do we get this done? I also likes your post yesterday about Kelly not being all that bad and the team being close. You cited Kelly could gon10-2 in 2017. The problem is Kelly is only going to get to 10-2. He will lose games because of being Kelly. So he has to go. He can get away with his crap ay a mid school but not at ND

 

[theskibro]

Please, no more guys from New Jersey. Had enough. Arrogant, condescending, over bearing, and that's just starting, trying to be civil. And look, I didn't even need to write a novelette to make a point.

Howard I am from New Jersey. You talking to me? You want a piece of me? Who you looking at? Yeah you. Wachamatta cat got yer tongue?

 

[stu4don]

Great post IIO -- Schiano brings up an interesting point about the top coaches. Meyer hired a former HC as his DC. Saban hired a former HC as his OC. Kelly... hired a failed DC as his DC and that will be his downfall. Could the failure of the offense of late have to do with Kelly putting more time in with the defense?

Either way, I guess I'm with you, it is time for a change. Kelly proved in 2012 and last year ( yes, even last year when we lost to three playoff caliber teams in close ones -- with a shitty DC and injuries -- that ND can win a natty again.) I think you're right Kelly's style just hasn't worked at ND and the year we we went to the natty he played Lou Holtz football -- conservative on O and let your defense win the game. If he had done that the last two weeks -- we would have won both games...

I could see Kelly having success at a Maryland. (Someone will snap him up in an instant.)

Schiano is a good one to throw in the hat. Thanks for the analysis.

 

[stu4don]

By the way, even with this really disappointing year ND's program is light years ahead of where it was when Weis/Willingham/Davie. (When was the last time we were blown out?) I thought our young defensive talent played lights out yesterday. We finally have the speed to play with anyone -- even if they are still too young right now. We (until late) have an o line that can play with anyone and a QB who will play in the NFL. Not to mention all the institutional changes. So, whoever takes over will have much higher expectations than Kelly did his first year.

 

[Howard Hall 74]

Howard I am from New Jersey. You talking to me? You want a piece of me? Who you looking at? Yeah you. Wachamatta cat got yer tongue?

I stand by everything I said, and you are example #1 as to why. Thanks for making my point.

 

[theskibro]

I stand by everything I said, and you are example #1 as to why. Thanks for making my point.

You don't even recognize sarcasm? Get out more dude

 

[Telx1]

Ski tongue in cheek made his point, not yours.

 

[theskibro]

Ski tongue in cheek made his point, not yours.

Ah, Telx. Howard got me napping

Ski tongue in cheek made his point, not yours.

ah, Telx. Howard got me napping. But you don't miss a thing. Getting old I am

 

[Telx1]

Ski... age caching up on me as well. Hope to have another twenty years of ND football and to plan my Saturday's accordingly, but not sure I can take many more like this one.

 

[Legendsteve]

IIO. Holtz got screwed out of at least one additional Championship. 1993. And you could argue the same of 1989 given soc. But I digress. I like Diaco as the next head coach. Checks ALL the boxes plus is younger than Schiano. Narduzzi is very interesting. Did a Hell of a job at MSU before Pitt. Like Schiano as well, he is just lower down my list. It would be wise to assume Herman will seek Urban's advice on what job he should take. While many would assume this hurts ND it may, in fact help them. What do you think?

 

[ivan brunetti]

Diaco might work out. He has only marginally improved UConn. He would be a more obvious choice if he had the Huskies back to nine win seasons.

 

[Nocalirish]

Schiano is the only candidate whose team is going to the playoff and recruits will want to play for him.

 

[Tru2Irish]

IIO-my thoughts on where ND is today. I have always believed that ND could afford to bring in a few student-athletes that might not have ND standard requirements. They could,however,receive more tutelage than the norm. Zorich is a prime example of this. Many kids will work their tails off on the field and off to better themselves in life.The high and mighty arrogance of ND overseers don't even care to give these types a chance . They don't realize these kids might work like a champion. So much for slogans,huh? In the workforce, I have experienced many people excelling when given the proper tools to succeed. It could be the same at ND without lowering standards much. If people on this board want to argue about how much ND standards in classrooms are better than others and should not budge an inch,then prepare to never vie for a championship again. 2012 was an anomaly. Teo and others played with tremendous hearts and guts. I don't particularly credit Kelly with their character. That was already instilled in themselves. He benefited from the outcome. Plus Diaco's style secured some wins that year. I have no problems with a tough minded coach like a Schiano being hired. While Fleck is hot, he has not proven anything with any big time program. I do like Chryst,Dantonio, Narducci and a few longshots[Herman and Peterson]. I agree withe defensive mindset first. If standards were lowered a wee bit,ND might pull in elite d-ends or d-linemen as well as a few elite d-backs. That could place them in contention for playoffs. These are just my thoughts and everyone might not agree ,but unless some constructive conversations start happening within ND doors, things will remain status quo. I certainly hope not for the sake of ND's football future.I bleed Irish!!
f

 

[HuddleBurger]

Very good post. I think you have plenty of perspective. I think we're closer to agreement you may realize. My point is that Notre Dame CAN recruit enough talent to compete for title twice a decade and be a top 10'ish team nearly every year. Can they surpass a Alabama or Ohio State at this point, probably not. But they can do better than they are doing now. How much better? This season aside, realistically, probably only slightly better. But if a different coach wins you 1 extra game each year, you have to try to find that guy.

I think we would both agree that ND has a little bit more in them than Brian Kelly has gotten out of them. Do they have Alabama potential. No. But if the development of the players matched the recruiting Kelly has done, there would be better results. It's a simple principle. Kelly has far out recruited teams like Stanford and Michigan State. Yet they have been more successful during the same period because of better systems, identity and development... Despite all of that, Kelly has beaten David Shaw twice and Mark Dantonio 3 times, proving he has the athletes and talent to do it. What's missing is the attitude, the consistency and the swagger to do it every time... ND respects MSU and Stanford. Those teams hate Notre Dame... Which school brings more emotion and fire to those matchups each year?... That's why despite more talent (just watch the NFL draft) those teams have beat ND. The Irish needs a coach who can maximize the potential of his players and beat those teams into their respective places in college football. The Stanford kids bully the Notre Dame kids. ND needs a coach who can energize his kids and make them understand that they are bigger and better than the kids from Stanford and that they ought to punish pricks into submission... That's what Holtz did. He had no respect for other schools. He didn't give a shit who you were. He tore players down during the week, then built them up an made them feel disrespected on game day... His kids were mean. They were out to prove every week that Notre Dame is "better" than you. That's the link Kelly is missing. He's a good recruiter, he understands the game and if he could recruit a bunch of thugs, that have their own pride and swagger, he'd kick the crap out of people... But that's not Notre Dame. The kids that come to Notre Dame often need that fire lit under them, because community that is the school takes it out of them. They need a coach that keeps them on edge. Kelly does a lot of things well, but what he lacks is that edge and the ability to translate it to his players so they "hate" their opponent and want to punish them. That comes from the coach and the tone with which he coaches his program.

The systematic mediocrity at ND goes higher than the head coach, and can more than offset any tone or attitude that the coach tries to instill into the program IMO. Lou is a great case study because he coached both before and after the crackdown from the administration. Lo and behold, his last few teams suddenly were struggling mightily to beat huge underdogs like Army and Vanderbilt, and losing to unranked teams.

Holtz didn't change. He was still preaching the same respect, swagger, and pride as before. The administration above changed, not Holtz. And the results are plain to see.

 

[dagimpper1]

Don't disagree with much of what you are saying, but I also think that there is a lot more perspective to have here... Can Notre Dame routinely recruit with Ohio State and Alabama anymore. No they cannot. The reasons for that have been explained to death on this site. However, which team has won the most games over the past 5 years out of the following schools? Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Michigan State?... That's right, Mark Dantonio at Michigan State won more games coming into this year than the staffs at those other schools. He also took his team to the playoffs, and beat Urban Meyer and Ohio State along the way... Meanwhile, coming into this year, Brian Kelly was 3-1 against Dantonio, with the only loss coming on a fake field on the last play of the game, when ND's safety fell down. He easily could and should have been 4-0.

What am I getting at. While Notre Dame can't recruit with Alabama, there is no way that you are ever going to convince me that they can't recruit with Michigan State. The same can be said of Oklahoma, where Bob Stoops has also won a championship and kept his team very competitive... In fact, I posted in a thread yesterday talking about composite recruiting rankings and the facts are the Brian Kelly has outrecruited both Stoops and Dantonio over the past few years, but better development and retention of players have happened in those programs.

People on this board love Lou Holtz... But he won exactly one Natty at ND. He was a great coach, but he won ONE title. The same number Stoops has won at Oklahoma. Not everyone can be Alabama, and Notre Dame isn't going to be... That doesn't, however, mean that Notre Dame has to be average like Duke is, under the right coach. There is no reason Notre Dame (who already out recruits Michigan State) can't win like Michigan State. There is no reason that ND can't win 10'ish games every year, make the playoffs every 3 years, play for a title every 5-7 and have a down year be 8-4 or 9-3... Kelly has brought ND a long way, they just need somebody to finish the job he started. They need a toughness, an energy, a swagger and defiance about them. Shaw has built it at Stanford. Dantonio has built it at Michigan State... And Notre Dame out recruits and has more resources than either of those schools, by a substantial amount.

I don't buy the idea that ND can't perform like a top 10 program most years. Top 1-2... Probably not. But Stanford, Oklahoma, Michigan State, Oregon etc, etc, are more than possible.

I agree with most of what you are saying but, ND is not going to give the three exemptions you asked for. If they would Meyer would have taken the job. ND will have to change at some point. The fans will force them to. Once they start reaching into that 10 billion dollar endowment to meet payroll things will probably change. Problem is I won't see it. Too many rah rah fans. That show to games for the social aspects and not football.

 

[zonairish]

I agree with most of what you are saying but, ND is not going to give the three exemptions you asked for. If they would Meyer would have taken the job. ND will have to change at some point. The fans will force them to. Once they start reaching into that 10 billion dollar endowment to meet payroll things will probably change. Problem is I won't see it. Too many rah rah fans. That show to games for the social aspects and not football.

the 10 billion $ is for academics and academics only. They have other monies and they make plenty from notre dame sports in general

 

[napy2121]

IIO, I respect your posts even in disagreement. Well thought out points.

1. You acknowledge schiano's issues as a Hardass and some of the things that happened at Rutgers and Tampa, and your response seems to be because urban, Saban, and bk (to a lesser extent) are similar, we should excuse it to win. Frankly I don't think they'd ever excuse it simply to win. It's not being above anything, it's what they believe are core values of the institution. Further, IMHO, I'm not sure I want them to sacrifice those values for a few wins. Even with the financial ramifications, I respect this, we have to remember it's just a game. While it's extreme, when the game becomes more important than the institution we get penn st and Baylor. I'm not suggesting that's what schiano would bring here, I'm just saying I don't think nd would risk it given the known issues he's had.

2. Schiano simply isn't a great coach. He's a good coach, yes, but I think his value to ND fans is this old time "run the ball" thing that I understand why is appealing. There is also some appeal because he's viewed as someone that would take the job, which seems realistic.

3. I mean if we're under the premise we can craft bks exit scenerio, I sort envision bk leaves on his own after a 10-3 season in 2017, where he can be better positioned to pick his own job and ND is more attractive to have to settle for a guy that may not be a great fit from an institution perspective.

4. I do not want diaco, we've had issues recruiting and we can't get away with a guy that both doesn't actively recruit AND has all these artificial height/weight/length requirements. And the bottom line is he hasn't done well enough at uconn to justify being in that role at ND.

5. All that being said, schiano would be on my list, just a b candidate, not the A list.

My A list might be Dan Mullen and Bob Stoops. I know people are tired of stoops but I think he's a great coach that needs a change of scenery. I'm wondering if Mullen would be interested just because life in the sec is hard for miss st, I mean peak miss st with generational qb is 10 wins. He could accomplish more at nd.

My B list would be PJ fleck, Matt ruhl and schiano.

Hopefully you don't get to the c list but I'd keep an eye on skip holtz. Guy has 108 career wins, scores a ton of points, and is like 5-3 in bowl games. We could do worse but and I hope we don't get to this point.

Lastly, I agree that it'd be great to keep Sanford and hiestand. Might consider Gilmore too but that's about it.

 

[munson15]

Thanks for the detail and depth of thought....I would think the sheer number of assistants you aspire to retain is unrealistic...and lends credence to retaining Kelly. There would be too many divided loyalties with those numbers under a new head coach. Not gonna happen. Personally, I think Schiano needs another gig elsewhere before going for broke...say, Purdue or of that ilk.

I would prefer guys who are at or are where Kelly was. He was well-positioned after Cincinatti..and he had everything needed to be successful..except he can't adapt. He wants Notre Dame to conform to him....and it cannot in terms of competition with his philosophy. Others are both well-positioned and can adapt, such as a Tom Herman or a PJ Fleck....preferably Herman. Some might say Notre Dame would repeat the same kind of experiment...but I believe an up and comer with proven success can succeed and would take the Notre Dame job. I also disagree with you that Schiano would accept the Notre Dame gig. Thats not a given...just a prediction.

Why wouldn't Schiano take the ND job if offered?

 

[munson15]

IIO, I respect your posts even in disagreement. Well thought out points.

1. You acknowledge schiano's issues as a Hardass and some of the things that happened at Rutgers and Tampa, and your response seems to be because urban, Saban, and bk (to a lesser extent) are similar, we should excuse it to win. Frankly I don't think they'd ever excuse it simply to win. It's not being above anything, it's what they believe are core values of the institution. Further, IMHO, I'm not sure I want them to sacrifice those values for a few wins. Even with the financial ramifications, I respect this, we have to remember it's just a game. While it's extreme, when the game becomes more important than the institution we get penn st and Baylor. I'm not suggesting that's what schiano would bring here, I'm just saying I don't think nd would risk it given the known issues he's had.

2. Schiano simply isn't a great coach. He's a good coach, yes, but I think his value to ND fans is this old time "run the ball" thing that I understand why is appealing. There is also some appeal because he's viewed as someone that would take the job, which seems realistic.

3. I mean if we're under the premise we can craft bks exit scenerio, I sort envision bk leaves on his own after a 10-3 season in 2017, where he can be better positioned to pick his own job and ND is more attractive to have to settle for a guy that may not be a great fit from an institution perspective.

4. I do not want diaco, we've had issues recruiting and we can't get away with a guy that both doesn't actively recruit AND has all these artificial height/weight/length requirements. And the bottom line is he hasn't done well enough at uconn to justify being in that role at ND.

5. All that being said, schiano would be on my list, just a b candidate, not the A list.

My A list might be Dan Mullen and Bob Stoops. I know people are tired of stoops but I think he's a great coach that needs a change of scenery. I'm wondering if Mullen would be interested just because life in the sec is hard for miss st, I mean peak miss st with generational qb is 10 wins. He could accomplish more at nd.

My B list would be PJ fleck, Matt ruhl and schiano.

Hopefully you don't get to the c list but I'd keep an eye on skip holtz. Guy has 108 career wins, scores a ton of points, and is like 5-3 in bowl games. We could do worse but and I hope we don't get to this point.

Lastly, I agree that it'd be great to keep Sanford and hiestand. Might consider Gilmore too but that's about it.

What happened at Rutgers under Schiano'a watch that was questionable?

 

[munson15]

I stand by everything I said, and you are example #1 as to why. Thanks for making my point.

Is your point that people from New Jersey have a sense of humor and you do not?

 

[IrishInOntario]

IIO, I respect your posts even in disagreement. Well thought out points.

1. You acknowledge schiano's issues as a Hardass and some of the things that happened at Rutgers and Tampa, and your response seems to be because urban, Saban, and bk (to a lesser extent) are similar, we should excuse it to win. Frankly I don't think they'd ever excuse it simply to win. It's not being above anything, it's what they believe are core values of the institution. Further, IMHO, I'm not sure I want them to sacrifice those values for a few wins. Even with the financial ramifications, I respect this, we have to remember it's just a game. While it's extreme, when the game becomes more important than the institution we get penn st and Baylor. I'm not suggesting that's what schiano would bring here, I'm just saying I don't think nd would risk it given the known issues he's had.

2. Schiano simply isn't a great coach. He's a good coach, yes, but I think his value to ND fans is this old time "run the ball" thing that I understand why is appealing. There is also some appeal because he's viewed as someone that would take the job, which seems realistic.

3. I mean if we're under the premise we can craft bks exit scenerio, I sort envision bk leaves on his own after a 10-3 season in 2017, where he can be better positioned to pick his own job and ND is more attractive to have to settle for a guy that may not be a great fit from an institution perspective.

4. I do not want diaco, we've had issues recruiting and we can't get away with a guy that both doesn't actively recruit AND has all these artificial height/weight/length requirements. And the bottom line is he hasn't done well enough at uconn to justify being in that role at ND.

5. All that being said, schiano would be on my list, just a b candidate, not the A list.

My A list might be Dan Mullen and Bob Stoops. I know people are tired of stoops but I think he's a great coach that needs a change of scenery. I'm wondering if Mullen would be interested just because life in the sec is hard for miss st, I mean peak miss st with generational qb is 10 wins. He could accomplish more at nd.

My B list would be PJ fleck, Matt ruhl and schiano.

Hopefully you don't get to the c list but I'd keep an eye on skip holtz. Guy has 108 career wins, scores a ton of points, and is like 5-3 in bowl games. We could do worse but and I hope we don't get to this point.

Lastly, I agree that it'd be great to keep Sanford and hiestand. Might consider Gilmore too but that's about it.

Really good post. Thanks for sharing. Very much appreciate your thoughts.

I tend to think Schiano is a better coach than you do, but that's certainly only small disagreement.

I'm not sold on PJ Fleck as of yet and I think that hiring him would be allowing him to skip an important rung in the coaching latter, having success a a lower level P5 school, much like BK did at Cincinnati after Central Michigan, Urban Meyer did at Utah after Bowling Green, Nick Saban did at LSU, after Michigan State.

Dan Mullen does fit that criteria by Coaching at a lower tier P5 school in Missisippi State. He's definitely on my list. My only concern with Mullen is that he's an offensively mind coach and I would prefer Notre Dame to be built with a defense first mentality.

Regardless, I think we're going to see a couple more years of Brian Kelly, so I'm more interesed in who ND's next DC is going to be at this point. I'd like them to go get Mike Elko from Wake Forest to run a 3-4 defense and make Mike Sanford the playcaller, from up in the booth. I really think that Mike Denbrock is a fantastic WR coach, but I don't enjoy his in game playcalling.

HC: Brian Kelly
OC / QB: Mike Sanford
WR: Mike Denbrock
RB: Autry Denson
TE: Jeff Quinn
OL: Harry Hiestand

DC: Mike Elko
DL: Keith Gilmore
LB: Greg Hudson
DB: Todd Lyght

STC / RC: Mike Elston

IMO, Booker has to go. His special teams are inconsistent and his tight ends are not developing. Jeff Quinn is an experienced coach who has a history of working with tackles and tight ends, in this offense. Elston is an attention to detail tyoe of guy, which is why recruiting has been extremely organized and that's the kind of guy you need running your special teams. The most minor of details makes the difference in that area of the game. It would be a promotion for Elston as well, who has been a bright spot on this staff.

 

[Harpo Marxist]

Why wouldn't Schiano take the ND job if offered?

Schiano is an Urban Meyer assistant....Would he not seek counsel from Urban about the ND job? A job Urban himself turned down? Look....these guys use a different measuring stick than Joe Blow does......He may have another job in his pocket that he's been positioning for for a while...Who knows?

 

[napy2121]

I suggested Elko in a post after bvg was canned and I think it caught people off guard but I can't take full credit I think Sampson over at scout suggested his name as well. And I agree that booker needs to go or get shuffled into a recruiter only "staff" position. Quinn already on staff makes that an easy transition, at least for the te's.

Once bk does have to be replaced I do kind of like the idea of a d guy being hc. As someone suggested you name Sanford associate hc and give him play calling duties with the only direction to rethink our balance while keeping spread principals, maybe add some tempo.

Complete side note, and keep in mind I support bk in that I think he's a good coach (not elite) having a bad year, and may be reaching his expiration at ND, but isn't the most surprising thing about his tenure was that he never brought tempo here? I think somebody touched on this in a previous post but I thought that was why they brought him here. I know the qb circumstances were t great but even when we had golson or Zaire or kizer, we've never gone "warp speed" which was totally the buzzword around him when hired.

 

[Irish Grandeur]

P.J. Fleck will be a name in the future.