Sure...Smith was special...kelce was a surprise...but my point is that it has zero bearing on the job Quinn will or won't do.
New OL coach
- Thread starter wicker
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Nothing that was actually reliable. Several people have put that out there but not based on anything but speculation.
Idk but Quinn was already on staff as a consultant so maybe they wanted continuity after such a huge staff turnover last year and then losing HH and Elko a year later.
The players certainly were effected by the coaches leaving and (I’m assuming here) Kelly wanting to limit the damage tapped a guy that was already in the building and around his players just as he did with the DC hire.
So if 2017’s offseason was about constructing a “new road” maybe 2018’s offseason was looked at as simply laying new “asphalt” on an already structurally sound “road.”
Identifying and developing talent has ZERO bearing on the job of an OL coach?
Can you elaborate?
Of course it does. Again, not my point. My point was the accomplishments of a single player tell us nothing (zero) about an individual coaches ability. BVG was as bad a coordinator as there could have been hired. If jaylon Smith makes a bunch of pro bowls it doesn't mean someone reading an article about BVG being hired by the Didn't-think-it-through State should get giddy because they just got the guy who developed him. Likewise, pointing to kelce and staley as examples of Quinn being a great OL coach means nothing.
Maybe Quinn was essential in developing them. Maybe they were just good players who wouldn't be denied. Quinn has coached offense/offensive line for 30 years, and has 2 well known players in the NFL. I'm sure that falls well within what basic statistics would predict.
Swarbrick has also said ND is trying to play championship football... neither of his statements is true. Quinn to OL is ALL about money because he isn't on anybody's list of top 50 OL coaches.
Yea, I know that. ND tolerates the football program because is makes money. They want to spend as little as possible to field decent teams to keep the fans coming back and buying merchandise.
Harry had a long and distinguished career as an OL coach in college and the NFL. Quinn hasn't coached OL in almost 10 years and when he did coach it was at places like CMU and Cincy.. not even an average resume for an OL coach.
all about money ? based on what ? if you're correct why didn't they just hire him to the position right after harry moved up ?
Oh yeah, there were all sorts of questions about his stint at Tennessee, how happy the Viol fans were to see him leaving, and how it was a bad hire by Kelly. People have very short memories, when it suits them.
sure. many people wanted quinn to join kelly at the time. they were very successful together. hopefully they will be again.
Based on the fact that Kelly wasn't fired after '16. There isn't another top program in the country that would have kept him after that season given his overall performance the 6 years.. but they just gave him an extension so ND wasn't about to fork over that cash.
Based on the fact programs like Bama, OSU, Clemson are expanding their coaching / recruiting staffs like crazy and ND is way behind here.
Based on the fact ND is exploring getting rid of the training table. Based on the fact ND requires their players to graduate in 4 years (5th year would cost them $).
If you can't see that ND has done very little to produce championship teams in the last 25 years you simply haven't been looking.
They didn't hire Quinn immediately because they have to at least appear to be conducting a search. They want to keep the money coming in as long as possible and replacing HH with Quinn immediately would have been too obvious.. even to those who don't want to admit that ND doesn't really care about winning football games anymore.
The training table or no training table question was never about money, even back when they didn't have training table. It was about philosophy.
What's that philosophy? That if you are an athlete and practice and study don't get you to the dining hall until late you get to eat the tiny scraps that are left over and go hungry? Go read some of the stories about the players and the struggles they went through to get a decent meal.
Don't fool yourself... it's about money with ND there isn't a single "philosophy" that can condone these players that make millions for them from going hungry. Training table cost money and ND doesn't want to spend it on the program.. just like they don't want to invest in expanding the coaching staff.
Gotta say, you are one of the better posters.. we can disagree but its never personal. Wish more of us could just debate without it becoming a 6 page insult thread
i gotta say i honestly don't think its a money issue. i highly doubt they are going to seriously consider getting rid of the training table. as far as staff goes trying to keep "jones family " is hardly a guarantee of success.
nd has more total staff than michigan, auburn and others. nd has 19 support staff. alabama has 20. how many is enough ?
Obviously, I hope Coach Quinn will be very successful but think his resume looks similar to BVG. He had early success but hasn't been as successful lately. Heres to hoping that he makes us all huge Quinn fans and our O-line next year and beyond continue to be one of the best in the nation.
his work with kelly has always been highly productive. hopefully that continues.
Irish fans...what is done, is done. I'm more upset with Jack and his screwing around with the schedule than with the Quinn hire.
Here's the problem for me. I didn't set out in this thread to pump up Quinn. He wouldn't have been my first choice. So I understand the disappointment with the hiring decision.
At the same time, I don't understand the need to demonize Quinn and brand him as the next BVG to make the point.
I agree that the development of single player doesn't tell us much about a coaches ability, but it does make me more interested in learning about what else he may have done. And looking at the way ND presented Quinn in the press release gives us an idea - which people are free to disagree with - of what ND thinks his strengths to be when making the hire.
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i don't get the van gorder comparison at all. talk about apples and oranges.
Making the schedule is his job. the AD normally pick and choose the ACs, that's on the HC.
I know making the schedule is Jack's job. It isn't his job to make the schedule much more difficult than it needs to be. Mission accomplished for 2018. I'm sure he is eyeing, as I stated somewhere else, to move the 2019 USC game to Idaho or someplace and making it a neutral site shamrock game. That's what Jack does.
I never said any of those things. I literally only said you cannot judge his ability as a coach by how Travis Kelce developed in the pros. So please don't lump me in with all the doomsday predictors who post any negative situation as evidence of JS/BK conspiracy or incompetence. Or the other half of the posters who instantly post sunshine to refute the doomsday posters.
But since you asked I will tell you why I don't like the hire. Not to the "next BVG" level, but don't like it overall. Since his arrival Kelly has done some things that show why he was such a successful coach. But he has had 2 fatal flaws that have held the program back. The first is the ability (or lack thereof) to develop a quarterback. The second is his stubborn refusal to grow beyond what had made him successful in the past and adjust to the highest level of college football. And this hire feels like the second. My hesitance is only partially what I've heard about Quinn. He has a mixed bag on his resume and commentary. But Kelly had three highly qualified individuals that smart money said would be better than Quinn. And if he hired one of them he would still have Quinn. As an offensive analyst. This move was Kelly stepping into a pattern that has caused big setbacks in the program in the past. Doesn't mean it will this time, or that hiring one of the other guys would have been golden, but it wasn't the move of a championship caliber coach.
Am I the only who doesn't think the schedule next year is awful ? I'm just not seeing it.
No, you said more than that. If you had simply stated that, instead of equating Quinn's involvment with Kelce to BVG's involcvment with Jaylon Smith, we would have had a different exchange. The BVG comparison was provactive. I can't imagine someone not recognizing that when bringing BVG into the discussion, but I'm cool if you want to move on from that.
I stated in my last post that I undertand why people are disappointed with the hiring decision. And for the most part, your explanation matches my understanding.
IMO, a more interesting discussion would be to move beyond the obvious "comfort zone/old habits" anaylsis and see what other motivations Kelly may have had for reaching the decision. But I think a lot of people would be intolerant of that sort of a discussion right now so its not going to happen.
So you're saying that your objection was to using Smith as an example? Fine...use Romeo okwara...he had a nice rookie season with the giants....say he had continued it and led the giants in sacks 5 years in a row. No person whose school hired BVG in that scenario should be happy that they got the guy that developed Romeo okwara.
I already said: "I agree that the development of single player doesn't tell us much about a coaches ability, but it does make me more interested in learning about what else he may have done."
So I'm not sure what you're still looking for here, but you really seem focused on BVG. Under your hypothetical scenario, what job was BVG hired for? If he was hired as a DC, I would say of course not. His system was too complex to learn efficiently, he was terrible at implementing it He sucked as a DC at a bunch of stops, and I'd be unhappy - just like I was when we hired him.
But if I knew little about BVG and he was hired as a position coach, for which he would need to identify and develop talent, and somebody pointed to a completely unrecruited walk-on, that never played the position and was undersized for it, and that walk-on developed into an NFL pro-bowler starting this year's Superbowl at a position that BVG was responsible for coaching, well if all that stuff that didn't actually happen with BVG happened, I think I'd be open to learning more about what else he did as a position coach.
It happened with Quinn, and I'm interested in knowing more about him. I'm really not interested in any fantasy scenario comparisons with BVG.
Yes, I think you are. Though this is old news, the media covering ND even made a stink about it at the time. BK cannot be happy about the change in scheduling for no apparent reason. His job is hard enough without his own AD getting involved and making it that much more difficult. All the travel at the bottom end of the schedule was the big issue. Taking away a home game and shipping it out to NY against a less than exciting opponent was another issue. Just a puzzling move on Jack's part. They could have worn their fancy pants shamrock uniforms at the final home game if it's that important.
You said that I didn't just make the point that a player doesn't predict a coaches ability and that's why you felt the need to reply to what I said. And yet that is all I ever said. I changed up the original scenario so it had a player more on the level of kelce, and you posted something I'm not even going to bother to read. You're arguing with yourself from now on.
so, your average OL coach has head coach and OC for one of the best offenses in the country on their resume? jeebus, you guys act like they found this guy in a soup kitchen...
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