This is where the logical disconnect is most obvious. Everyone accepts there is a right to protest and march and do whatever to promote your political/social/religious beliefs whether you are an athlete protesting racism during the anthem or a KKK member protesting liberalization of America and races mixing. But because it is the anthem we are going to say the football players' protest is wrong. At the same time we are just going to ignore the KKK and other groups promoting the hate that is being protested against by the football players because the KKK has a right to do it? The method of protest may not be the most efficient but why are we calling them bums or immediately dismissing them? A lot of these teams do veteran and wounded warrior outreach as it is.
Kizer supporting kneeling teammates during National Anthem.
- Thread starter GoldenJudge
- Start date
Yeah in context of a concert I don't want anyone playing music but the people on the stage.
No my point is way more disrespectful things happen in the stands during the anthem than players kneeling quietly. Double standard it seems.
My money says had you agreed with what they were pontificating about you d be back. You re an easy read.
SA,
Here is the difference, as I see it, if one group gets a permit, in this case the KKK, they can
Legally march, and the 99% plus Americans will simply ignore them ! We all know that they are
a hate group !
In the case, of the Sports Figures, Performers, etc who use their Venue as a means to protest,
They have no Permit to protest ! Their fans paid to see a game or an artistic performance, not
To see a protest or go to hear a " Lecture about the artists' personal political positions or gripes !
In the first case, everyone has a choice to go to the protest or not.
In the second case, the paid customers have become a Captive Audience to watch
( or be distracted ) by a demonstration that they did not pay to see , and may be deeply hurt and
Offended by such a demonstration !
Here is the difference, as I see it, if one group gets a permit, in this case the KKK, they can
Legally march, and the 99% plus Americans will simply ignore them ! We all know that they are
a hate group !
In the case, of the Sports Figures, Performers, etc who use their Venue as a means to protest,
They have no Permit to protest ! Their fans paid to see a game or an artistic performance, not
To see a protest or go to hear a " Lecture about the artists' personal political positions or gripes !
In the first case, everyone has a choice to go to the protest or not.
In the second case, the paid customers have become a Captive Audience to watch
( or be distracted ) by a demonstration that they did not pay to see , and may be deeply hurt and
Offended by such a demonstration !
Players don't need a permit to protest on private property, they just need to have permission to do so, which at the very least they have implied permission to protest. By this reasoning that we should all be looking at the flag during the anthem and paying respect to it, if a fan is doing that then they aren't going to see the players kneeling. If the fans are preoccupied by wondering whether or not players are kneeling during the anthem are they not disrespecting the anthem themselves? In your second case everyone is still free to watch the protest or not. No one is captive, they just choose to go to the game and look for protests.
Ok, I said to ECHO , in an earlier post, no sense in beating this to death or going around in circles, so Ill
Just respectfully disagree and move on !
You'd lose your money. You're not as bright as you think you are. What part of "Be quiet and perform" and " I don't care if it's the Singing Nun" don't you get? You can't be that dense but somehow I think you are and it's self inflicted. Now, stop looking for excuses to exonerate the kneeling rebels without a cause.
They don't need to be exonerated, as they're exercising their constitutional right. You may not agree with their reasons for kneeling, but that's utterly immaterial to the issue. I'm sure you've heard the saying, "I disagree with everything you say, but defend to my death your right to say it." Now, I wouldn't quite go that far, but you get the drift. The funny thing about all this is that it's all a little thing, it's nothing that should rustle anyone's jimmies. I'd never do it and I don't think it's a proper or effective way to express dissent, but it's nothing to get worked up over.
Probably when the player protesting uses inaccurate information, inflames racial tensions, and equates police with pigs. That's probably a big reason right there.
That's totalitarianism.
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To your first point. Kapernick did that allude to police being pigs but I haven't seen any other players who are protesting do that. Just like we don't want minorities generalizing all white people with the neo-nazi's it seems prudent to not generalize the protesters. Unless of course taking them seriously is not the actual point.
To your second that is not totalitariansim. Social action in which the citizens refuse to accept ideologies that have become ethically problematic is called progress. There is no advocacy for state action in my statement. For something to be totalitarian that would assume there was coercive force being used by the government. I am not suggesting that is viable or desirable. I am suggesting however that at some point people have to realize we are better then letting the KKK feel like they are welcome in our communities.
Kaepernick was my entire point.
If you want to go beyond that, when the Rams did their "hands up" protest about Michael Brown, that was based on inaccurate information. So no, I'm not generalizing. The three issues I mentioned could be applied beyond just Kaepernick.
As for taking their protests seriously, no I don't. If they were serious, they would protest the actual issues that cause racial problems, not the ones they simply perceive.
Regarding the second point, you said this:
If you want to stop the klan from existing, that's going to take government action.
As for making the klan feel like they are "welcome in our communities," I'd like to see where that is actually happening. Few people support the klan, or the neo-nazis. Both groups are pariahs in our society. If you are claiming the fact that they can hold rallies is evidence of "acceptance," you are simply incorrect. It's legal for them to do it, so that's why they get to march, not because the community is making them "feel welcome." In fact, usually when the klan/nazis have a rally, most of the local businesses close up for they day, because they don't want to be associated with the groups, even in the south. Again, that's not the community making them "feel welcome."
The Klan and Neo-Nazis walking around in communities and not remaining anonymous demonstrates that they have no concern about the risk of their identity being exposed. There entire organizations who are making money promoting these white power positions/ideologies. Doesn't take government action for society to stand up and start telling the KKK and Neo-Nazis that their words aren't welcome.
I don't know what rock you have been living under, but society has been telling the klan and nazis they aren't welcome for decades. You are ALWAYS going to have a few individuals who have no fear of being outcast in society. That's not proof that society "welcomes" them. Most of these people who are in the hate groups are outcasts who don't hold steady jobs, positions of authority or prominence. They are mostly the dregs of society. So no, it doesn't bother them to be outcasts, because they are already outcasts in the first place.
This is the most asinine thing you have ever said. Our society doesn't welcome or support the klan or nazis. To suggest so is just flat out stupid. Now matter how tolerant and enlightened of a society you have, there will ALWAYS be a few jerks and troublemakers. You seem to suggest that the fact that a country of 300+ million people not eradicating EVERY SINGLE racist is proof the society "welcomes" racism. That's idiotic.
Just because everyone is doing the wrong thing doesn't makes it right.
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Who ignoring? I think that's how the girl got killed in VA. Not looking for North Korean allegiance. Folks clapping like seals and crying on cue when camera is scanned over them. Too much to ask with your hand over your heart? You tube Jim Browns take. Should white players take a knee? How many white folks have been victims of crimes committed by people of color? GO LOOK at the FBI stats. In NYC blacks committ the bulk of the crime. Maybe Eli Manning should take a knee? Maybe everyone take a knee to air their grievances?
"If you think the players disrespecting the flag is the reason for the drop in ratings you are buying off on some bad analysis."
Really? And how would you know this? Why don't you tell all of us what the reasons were? U know that It didn't have any impact on the decline in ratings? Please enlighten us all w/ your good analysis, since mine is so bad.
Really? And how would you know this? Why don't you tell all of us what the reasons were? U know that It didn't have any impact on the decline in ratings? Please enlighten us all w/ your good analysis, since mine is so bad.
So let me get this straight, it can be okay for some people to be outraged to the level of removing statues that offend them (which doesn't directly affect them), but people can't be offended when players disrespect the flag and anthem (which, in your eyes I guess, doesn't really affect them). Got it.
So the dangers of the game turned people off and not that some of the players were disrespecting the flag and anthem? On this very board, I've read many posts that claim that they won't watch the NFL because of the disrespecting of the flag and anthem, I haven't heard one post about someone not watching the NFL because of its "inherent dangers", not one. I'm not saying there aren't people out there that think that way, but I think it pales in comparison. We'll agree to disagree.
You only have the power to manipulate minds in your classroom where they have no ability to defend themselves. Your "b.s." won't work here and it certainly doesn't work with me.
A neurologist I work with, big sports fan, says he can't keep watching, knowing the dangers of the sport, specifically to the head. He just felt he couldn't do it anymore, even after having season tickets to 49ers games. Maybe a snowflake?
I will continue to watch regardless of the dangers and protesting, just not with the same interest as I do with Notre Dame football.
No he didn't. Trump's never supported these hate groups. He just didn't give left-wing hate groups a free pass, as others often do.
You are either kidding yourself or lying to yourself. Hiring Bannon, Trump gave support to these hate groups.
I actually work in a large city where my interactions are with a large crossection of society. So do I think racism exists? I do. I don't think it's as rampant as the news portrays it. In fact I could give situations where a conflict or disagreement occurred and race was to blame. I can say for sure race had nothing to do with it. But this is the crux of the issue for me. No matter what is said, if there is a conflict between two parties and one is black, right away it is race that caused the issue. Though it may not be, it is. That happens a lot. Now conversely, when race really is the cause, it loses it punch because it's always used as an issue. I don't know if I'm explaining this but I hope you get my point. Anyway, I just find it kind of disingenuous that multimillionaire players are protesting by sitting or kneeling or whatever during the national anthem. They wouldn't be where they are in any other country. Yet here they are protesting and disrespecting our flag when in fact it's living under that flag that's allowed them to live a dream very few get to live. But somehow we are a racist country. I sorry but I don't agree with any of them .
No, I'm not kidding and lying to myself. Hiring Bannon did not give support to hate groups. That's simply a myth. Disagreeing with mainstream opinions regarding race relations and diversity is simply not racist.
Please cite a post where I " exonerated " them ? Do you know the meaning of the word ?
Nobody's stopping them from protesting on their own time, but when they're in the game, as a member of their team, they should observe the National Anthem like everyone else.
Why? Why is it that the way you think they should pay respect to their county is the only way that is acceptable? Some would argue the american spirit entails standing up for what you believe is an injustice even if its not popular and it puts a bullseye on you. Just because you don't agree with the method of protest means its automatically bad? I think people who march and make it harder for me to get to the courthouse are picking a terrible way to protest but I don't tell them to go home and write letters instead.
I'm fine with protesting. It's actually very "American". However, correct me if I'm wrong. If an NFL player wears something on his uniform as a " type of protest" , isn't that player fined? And if that is the case, then how are players allowed to protest the national anthem and be fined for that?
Because there are policies in place in the CBA/League rules that prohibit one of the acts
Ok I get that. So what if the NFL decides to have a policy that they must stand for the national anthem? Then what? Can the NFL actually do that? Just curious. The way I see it, they can do what they want. I don't agree with it but that is their right. So I have the option to not watch. That's how I respond. Pretty simple.
The NFL would have to get the players union to agree. Maybe there is another dimension where North Korea has taken over the United States and everyone is forced to stand for the flag and recite a daily allegiance. When you force/coerce people to honor something, it makes that honor an empty gesture.
Breitbart with Bannon was decidedly anti-Semitic and racist, not an alternate mainstream opinion. Hiring Bannon most certainly gave encouragement to hate groups.
Because they are on the clock. He's getting paid to work, not protest. The average worker isn't going to be allowed to run around protesting at his employer's business. The NFL is a business. If they don't want their employees pissing off the customers, that's the end of the story.
And of course, there's all the issue I mentioned before, of the players using inaccurate information, inflammatory rhetoric, etc.
No, it didn't. That's a bs line ginned up by political opponents. If you accuse somebody of being racist, there has to be actual racism. You can't just claim there is "hidden racism" in what people say, and then try to turn around and claim that as "racism." This whole idea of a "dog whistle" is just a way to call opponents racist to try and shut them up.
